Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2012 October 29

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October 29

would usage-5

Hi ! I am trying to understand would.
I have the information where to use would.but I do not have explanation and examples.so I need your help.
My doudt is on “I wish you would-----------------“ sentence structure.
I wish you would ----------------“is possibly a request form.Here there is no feeling that the person addressed will refuse to perform the request ,but there is a feeling that this person is annoying or disappointing the speaker in some way.”
Can you explain with some examples? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Phanihup (talk • contribs) 02:06, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes. "I wish you wouldn't x" or "I wish you would stop xing" expresses implied annoyance on the part of the wisher, and "I wish you would x" is somewhat presumptuous and could be rude to a stranger or a superior. You should probably only say it when you are on good terms or have a very obvious good justification for it, as when the person knows they themselves are doing something rude that they should stop. μηδείς (talk) 03:10, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Example:

"I wish you would move your hand".

"How's that ?"

"No, I meant remove it from my body, not move it around !" StuRat (talk) 07:58, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Is this paragraph an example of purple passage?

In line with the past question, I would like to know whether being too purple is the problem of the writing.

Dear friend, perhaps we should talk as I can smell the burning passion I as well have. We both have soaring desires to defeat the communist insurgents and leave them with nothing. However it is our misfortune that neither of us can do it alone. But with our talents fused together, there shall not be a hindrance preventing our victory." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 112.205.104.88 (talk) 05:37, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, too purple, and if I may say so, it doesn't seem to have been drafted by a native speaker. It rather looks like the writer is trying too hard. It also hardly makes sense to start with "perhaps we should talk" then launch into stuff about "burning passion". Like, you have this electrifying energy, so perhaps you should talk. IBE (talk) 07:19, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes. I gave you advice on this already here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Language#Help_please.21_I_need_your_remarks_to_this_short_paragraph. μηδείς (talk) 15:28, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Your link doesn't work. (It's not bracketed, and the wiki parser thinks the trailing dot is not part of the url.) The correct link is Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Language#Help_please.21_I_need_your_remarks_to_this_short_paragraph., soon Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2012 October 27#Help_please.21_I_need_your_remarks_to_this_short_paragraph. (Incidentally, if you want to link to a section in a page, you can edit it to add an {{anchor}} with a simple name if you prefer, and then link to that anchor.) – b_jonas 22:16, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Sandy anxiety, you know. μηδείς (talk) 22:35, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Stay safe. -- Jack of Oz ^[Talk] 02:26, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. I am very surprised I didn't even lose power except for a few flickers--but the rest of my family are without power. No major damage or personal injury to anyone I know, but of course NYC is devastated from the surge. This image is shocking, and this one in Queens is not a sight one's seen anytime recently. μηδείς (talk) 15:52, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

And here in Detroit, where we're supposed to be safe from hurricanes, the high winds tore a piece of flashing off our roof. I'll thank you to keep your hurricanes to yourself, from now on ! StuRat (talk) 07:53, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Language attitudes in Islam

I know clearly that there is a consensus in mainstream Islam about non-Arabic languages. Simply speaking it is forbidden to pray aloud in non-Arabic and any translations of Quran are treated as corrupted interpretations. Alims only allow fresh converts to say silently prayer in their native language only until one has learned it in Arabic (though it seems this won't take long – namaz usually contains of about 200 words, which can be simply parroted). I googled and read enough to understand their arguments (though I strongly disagree with them). But I do not intend to speak about it.

Only I want to know what are attitudes to non-Arabic prayer, Quran translations and to the religious use of of non-Arabic languages generally in Reformist/Liberal and Quranic Islam. Unfortunately Mr. Google hasn't helped.

P.S. It would be helpful if somebody in the future creates an article "Language policies in religions".--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 06:24, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes, and this is similar to how the Catholic Church, in the middle ages, insisted that Bibles be written in Latin and services held in Latin. This is particularly odd, as most of the books later included in the Bible were written in other languages, such as Aramaic. StuRat (talk) 16:45, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

It's not quite like that...the Bible was written in Hebrew and Greek (there are a few words of Aramaic in it but no book was written entirely in Aramaic), and then translated into various other languages including Latin. It wasn't necessarily forbidden to translate the Latin Bible into vernacular languages, but vernaculars weren't (or weren't believed to be) sophisticated enough to translate something so profound. There were plenty of authorized translations, but unauthorized vernacular translations were almost always associated with heretical groups (people who thought the church was conspiring to keep everyone stupid, as you seem to believe). See Bible translations in the Middle Ages. For the Qur'an, it's a little different because theologically, the Qur'an is supposed to be "uncreated". It's not simply something that God recited to Muhammad, it's more like the text has eternally existed and was then revealed. It was always in Arabic, so if the text is eternal and uncreated in Arabic, it cannot be properly translated into another language. Adam Bishop (talk) 21:32, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

By the way we also have a Quran translations article, and History of the Qur'an talks a bit about it. Adam Bishop (talk) 01:02, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

This is especially curious that the Quran was written down not during the life of Muhammad from him directly, but later from the people who claimed that they had learnt the Quran by heart. Nobody definitely knows if they really have learnt it rightly throughout, word by word, letter by letter. Of course all this is a matter of blind faith not reason.

Nevertheless there was a current which supported the createdness of the Quran, unfortunately it was ousted. The same was also with Abu Hanifah, who prayed in Persian, though even his disciples declined the possibility to pray in a native language. Also Atatürk should be mentioned who was blamed for Turkish prayers.
But even if the Quran is eternal it does not necessary imply that it was always in Arabic. In this case the Arabic language in the form of the 7th century Quraysh dialect was also eternal. It sounds very weird! I don't get it why Islamic theologians (mostly non-Arabs themselves!) are so stubborn on this linguistic Arabic chauvinism. It is very different from Christianity where you can pray in any language and the Bible translations are quite equal to the original.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 05:26, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

It is also claimed that there have never been any variations in the manuscripts of the Qur'an, because the text itself is eternal and miraculous and humans can't even accidentally make a mistake in copying it. That's also partially why destroying a copy of the Qur'an causes so many problems. Adam Bishop (talk) 10:55, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

I seem to recall that it says in the Qu'ran itself "We have given you this Qu'ran in Arabic so that it may be plainly understood." Plenty there for both sides to argue from - is it the Arabic-ness or the understandability that is paramount? AlexTiefling (talk) 10:59, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

I suppose Allah (or the Quran itself, I don't get who was the first if they are both eternal) is doing C.O. in this passage and no more. Implying that "written in Arabic" = "forbidden to translate and pray" are fantasies of chauvinistic Islamic scholars. I'm sure even Muhammad would be surprised.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 11:15, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

I guess one of the reasons is the Qur'an contains a lot of great poetry which, if translated, is really not all that appealing or convincing, because it loses its charm. - Lindert (talk) 11:28, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunately more than 98% of humans cannot appreciate its poetic value. In any case poesy has nothing to do with faith and with opportunity for people to pray with their own language.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 11:56, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

That's certainly true, yet that is probably the main argument the Qur'an gives for its divine origin. It challenges any nay-sayers to 'then produce a surah like it' (2:23, 10:38 etc.) and as you say most people on earth have no way of considering or examining this challenge, because they don't know the language. - Lindert (talk) 12:06, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

And I always wonder whether a surah could ever be acceptably "like" one of the Q. without being one of the Q. —Tamfang (talk) 18:39, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

After all it's a pity that nobody has answered the main question. :( --Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 06:13, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

re article proparoxytone

Hi everybody !

The article quotes Joyce's Ulysses : "Stephan Dedalus in James Joyce's Ulysses (novel) uses the term to comment on the time being eleven o'clock, with eleven being a proparoxytone: "Why striking eleven? Proparoxyton. Moment before the next, Lessing says." [1]" Isn't Eleven stressed on the penultimate ? (e'leven). So doesn't that make eleven a paroxytone rather than a proparoxytone? Does that mean Joyce was wrong?

Or did eleven use to have an additional syllable (e'levenØ or e'leØven) that was dropped at some point making it a former paroxytone? Or does the final N count as a mora ?

Any suggestion is welcome, thank you.

--Anne97432 (talk) 09:09, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

No idea on Joyce, but eleven literally means "one left". See http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=eleven μηδείς (talk) 15:26, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

I don't think Stephen, or indeed Joyce, are thinking of pronunciation, they are thinking of time, "Moment before next", he says. Stephen is drunk and being his overly intellectual self, figuratively using the word rather too loosely which he used correctly when churchly sober in Portrait.... Stephen is wrong, Joyce is right to show his wrong. HTH. meltBanana 04:23, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

ID tag, WWII Shanghai ghetto

This item, from the Ghetto Fighters' House artifacts archive, is a metal ID tag pinned on as a brooch, worn by residents of the Shanghai Ghetto, 1943 - 1945 in Japanese-occupied China. What is this character that appears on the red background? -- Deborahjay (talk) 10:26, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Hmm...I am not good at recognizing calligraphy letter so I could be wrong but it looks like the character "通". For the meaning behind the character, I haven't a clue as I am not really knowledgeable about the history surrounding the Shanghai ghetto. Maybe someone else here could give you more information. SassyLilNugget (talk) 13:53, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

I agree about the identification of the character. Wikitionary says that its basic meaning is "pass through, common, communicate"; but as a noun in Japanese "authority, expert, connoisseur". I wonder if it means "authorised", or perhaps some sort of pass? --ColinFine (talk) 13:47, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

This is looking plausible. Would it have a similar meaning in Chinese, or different? I don't have information on whether the gatekeepers were locals or occupation forces, but in Polish ghettos, for example, German was the prevailing language of administration, with Polish and/or Yiddish added in directives aimed at the population. -- Deborahjay (talk) 14:30, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

I would say that both Chinese and Japanese would recognize the meaning behind this 通 character as it pretty much has the same meanings in both languages. It is one of the few Chinese characters that the meaning did not get completely changed or lost when entering the Japanese writing system. SassyLilNugget (talk) 14:51, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

It is probably more in line of being able to "pass through" as a description on the Ghetto Fighters' House website indicates that this ID brooch was checked at the entrance point into the ghetto. SassyLilNugget (talk) 14:36, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Spanish phrases in retail transactions

In the US, with customers speaking the Mexican dialect of Spanish, how would a retail clerk say in Spanish the following:a)"Here is your change." b)"Here is your receipt." (I have understood receipt to be receta, but someone said it is "recebo." c)"Would you like debit or credit?" d)"Sign here, please." e) "Would you like a bag?" Thanks. Edison (talk) 14:38, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Answering without proper diacritics:

a)"Here is your change." (Aqui esta) ...su cambio

b)"Here is your receipt." (I have understood receipt to be receta, but someone said it is "recebo." ...su recibo (receta is prescription)

c)"Would you like debit or credit?" (Quiere pagar por) debito o creidito?

d)"Sign here, please." Firme aqui, por favor

e) "Would you like a bag? Quiere fundita? or bolsa? Bolsa is literally bag, but you hear fundita, which is slang, in NYC. It might not be understood everywhere.

Per the discussion two below and its rarity on the internet, it looks like fundita will be seen as a Dominican expression, so I would go with bolsa de papel o plastico or bolsita if it is not one of the large ones. Is this for homework, or do you work in a store with Mexican clients? μηδείς (talk) 20:10, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

I was going to comment below when I saw this thread. If it concerns Mexican listeners, then "bolsa" is the right word to use. "Funda" means "sheath", and I've never heard it used to refer to shopping bags before now — Frankie (talk) 20:19, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks! Edison (talk) 22:17, 2 November 2012 (UTC)

Epatiana a Teuruarii

Can someone help me write the Tahitian pronunciation for Epatiana a Teuruarii (ʻĒpātiana a Teuruariʻi) base on the table of sounds on Tahitian language?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 17:52, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

The table of sounds in that article does it for you. There's a one-to-one correspondence between letters and sounds, so for each letter you can just copy the corresponding sound from the table. Note that if a vowel has a macron (overbar) it is pronounced long and is denoted by the second of the two given pronunciations for that vowel in the table; otherwise the first given pronunciation applies. Also, remember that the apostrophe is a separate letter, the last one in the table. Duoduoduo (talk) 17:45, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Etymology of fundita as Spanish for Plastic Bag

Can anybody find any source defining and especially giving the etymology of the word fundita used in Spanish in NYC to refer to a disposable plastic shopping bag? This has been surprisingly hard to find, which leads me to think it may be local or slang. Thanks. μηδείς (talk) 19:16, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

I think it must be a diminutive of funda, "Cubierta o bolsa de cuero, paño, lienzo u otro material con que se envuelve algo para conservarlo y resguardarlo", which comes from the Latin funda, "sling, moneybag". Lesgles (talk) 19:59, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Yes. I did actually manage to find it used in a blog here by a woman from Seville. Funny thing is that you get images of hair bows if you google it. Wiktionary gives funda as dominican slang for shopping bag--apparently its more an archaism than slang if it comes from Latin. μηδείς (talk) 20:05, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

About that blog, the author is using "fundita" to refer to a sheath / sleeve where she stores her shopping bags after usage, not to refer to the bags themselves — Frankie (talk) 20:26, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

I assumed she meant a littler bag. How do you know this? (Not that I doubt you at all here.) Personal familiarity with Castillian usage? μηδείς (talk) 20:29, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

I'm a native Spanish speaker, but I'm not from Spain and I'm not particularly familiar with Castillian usage. Still, what she's saying is very straightforward: "I have gotten myself five bags, at 0.95 euros, very resistant and larger than the plastic ones. With those five I've managed to carry almost everything for the week. Afterwards you can fold them and keep them comfortably in a mini sheath that comes included" :) — Frankie (talk) 20:42, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

So what is your opinion of the New York/Dominican usage? This bag, about the size to carry a gallon of milk (4 liters) is what is called a fundita. μηδείς (talk) 20:50, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

I've never heard of it before, but it is normal for local usages to develop, no matter how arbitrary or "incorrect" they might seem to speakers from other regions. Looking at the ref from Wiktionary it has three hits for "funda" [1] but only the second one is about what we're discussing, and no hits for "fundita". The book itself is about Dominican slang, which could be taken as an indication that the term is not common to other Spanish speaking countries. This article does use "fundita" to mean a simple bag, being used to wrap guava fruits. What I'm really curious is how that could've gotten into Spanish slang in NYC, and whether it somehow originates from the Dominican usage — Frankie (talk) 21:09, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

I had never heard the term until I moved into a Dominican neighbourhood, where it was used almost exclusively, although they had had no problem with my saying "no quiero bolsa" at the bodega. μηδείς (talk) 21:20, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Makes sense: "bolsa" being the standard word for the object, they would have to be very picky to have a problem with it. Do you know if "fundita" is used by other communities (Cuban, Puerto Rican, etc.)? Otherwise, I think we're looking at a strictly contained phenomenon — Frankie (talk) 21:38, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

The large majority of Spanish speakers in the portions of Upper Manhattan and the Bronx I have lived in are Dominicans who tell outsiders that they are Puerto Rican, por la migra. (Younger Puerto Ricans mostly speak English!) My experience before my mid twenties had been with Puerto Ricans and Mexicans and i had only ever heard bolsa. Fundita is about all I've heard for the last 15-20 years in Mott Haven, Inwood, and University Heights, and this has been almost puro dominicano. μηδείς (talk) 21:46, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

It appears to be delimited to Dominican people then. There might be some interesting etymology behind it, but it could just be because sheaths are kind of bag-ish. I know I'll be keeping an eye out for it, now :) — Frankie (talk) 22:04, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Lesgles's source above moneybag seems definitive. μηδείς (talk) 22:33, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't mean the etymology of the word, but the cultural origin of the Dominican usage (basically what I understand you had asked for in the beginning). The source above is good for the origin of the word "funda", but the connection with "bolsa" is too feeble, and I doubt that that is the reason it became a synonym in the DR. I found some posts about "bolsa" being a slang for "scrotum", so that might play some part in it. But of course I'm just speculating — Frankie (talk) 16:07, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Chinese stuff

In 北京振远护卫中心 isn't 振远 read as "Zhènyuǎn" or is it "Zhènyuàn" (which is altered due to pronunciation rules, right?)? Thanks, WhisperToMe (talk) 23:53, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

The third tone in yuǎn would become a second tone, yuán, before the fourth tone, hù, but only in quick speech. Not in this case, however, as it is the name of an institution, and is more likely to be pronounced clearly. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 06:08, 30 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the clarification! WhisperToMe (talk) 00:27, 31 October 2012 (UTC)