Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2013 October 7

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October 7

Glottal stop

This doesn't make any sense. Why is this considered a sound? How can anybody 'hear' this? Does it need a vowel to be 'pronounced?' I don't get it. --66.190.69.246 (talk) 08:35, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Sorry for my poor IPA skills, but I can confirm to the OP that I can very easily hear the difference between butter, buʔer (with a glotal stop instead of a t sound) and bu-er (with no glotal stop or consonant at all). So I can hear it. All consonants are easier to hear if they are adjacent to a vowel, including the glotal stop. Are you a native English speaker? I am only asking because your answer may help us to understand your confusion and maybe we can help you out better. --Lgriot (talk) 12:38, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

See Cockney Grammar lesson No 1: BUTTER. We'll soon 'ave yer talkin' proper. Alansplodge (talk) 12:46, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I am a native Anglophone. I’m not exactly disputing the existence of this thing, just the claim that it’s a sound. A sound makes vibrations in the air. Do glottal stops make vibrations in the air? --66.190.69.246 (talk) 14:50, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Do k or p make vibrations in the air? Are they sounds? Gabbe (talk) 15:38, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

On the contrary, 66. Sounds like /k/ and /t/ and /b/ are sometimes called stops by phoneticians precisely because there is a momentary interruption to the sound. What distinguishes them from each other auditorily is the formants just before and after the stop, but at the moment when the stop is articulated there is no sound. A glottal stop is another one of these, where the closure is in the glottis rather than the lips, teeth or tongue, so it is auditorily distinct from each of the other stops. --ColinFine (talk) 20:15, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes, they make vibrations since a little pressure is created in or with the mouth. I don't think that any pressure is created with a glottal stop. --66.190.69.246 (talk) 20:19, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

As a Londoner and occasional user of the glottal stops, I can confirm that the "pressure" is created in the glottis - hence the name. Londoners can pronounce "hot", "hut" and "hat" without any conventional consonants, but the vowel is ended with a definite "stop" as Colin says above. See also Occlusive. Alansplodge (talk) 21:00, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Those are only the ones you notice because they're different from other varieties of English. In English (all varieties, as far as I know), any utterance that nominally begins with a vowel sound, or (in careful, slow speech) any word that begins with a vowel sound when the previous word ends in a vowel sound, actually begins with a glottal stop. --Trovatore (talk) 21:09, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

• Uh oh. μηδείς (talk) 01:56, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Not all - there is the Linking and intrusive R and vowel dropping "you-nd me" -- Q Chris (talk) 13:24, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

I still don’t hear it. It just feels like a mere pause to me. Also, why are you responding to me? --66.190.69.246 (talk) 11:52, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

66.190.69.246 -- In the older Semitic languages, the glottal stop functioned in linguistic morphology as a consonant (as part of consonantal roots etc.), and in all of the alphabets that existed before the 9th century BC (the early Semitic consonantal alphabets, sometimes recently called "abjads") there was a separate letter to represent the glottal stop sound... AnonMoos (talk) 00:11, 12 October 2013 (UTC)

Term for political issue

What do you call a political issue that creates a lot of emotion and hot discourse but in a overall perspective is insignificant? I thought it was a political football issue but reading the article it clearly does not mean what I thought it did. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.214.166.6 (talk) 13:08, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps a tempest in a teapot, although this expression isn't unique to political issues. The same is true of Much Ado About Nothing. I've also simply seen commentators call them "distractions". If the distraction is intentional, it can be a case of (the tail) wagging the dog. StuRat (talk) 13:14, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Or a "make a mountain out of a molehill" may also apply ... personally I like Swift's use of "Big-Endians" v. "Little Endians". Collect (talk) 14:29, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

In Australian political discourse the word "affair" seems to fit at least part of that definition. The Craig Thomson affair was a seemingly big drama for some time recently, but now the government he was involved with has gone, so has the affair. So too was the Peter Slipper affair, although that doesn't work in its entirety as a Wikilink. The Profumo affair is well known British politics. I'm sure there are many others. HiLo48 (talk) 22:00, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

In the US it's has become the fashion to add the suffix "-gate" to any scandal, ever since Watergate. Of course, some of those scandals may be significant, while others are just politicians of the other party trying to whip up a scandal out of nothing. StuRat (talk) 13:40, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

The Australian love affair with "affair" had a similar if different genesis. I have no doubt the Gair Affair of 1974 was so named because of the headline writers' perpetual love of pithy wordplay (it was also called "The Night of the Long Prawns"). I don't remember any earlier Oz political crisis/issue/furore/scandal/controversy being called anything "affair", apart from the 1954 Petrov Affair; but the Gair Affair was the start of what seems like an unending series of them. After that came the Loans Affair (1975) and then "affair" was set in stone like -gate. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 18:56, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

"hot-button issues" (often linked to Dog-whistle politics)? --Orange Mike | Talk 01:09, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

I like some of the suggestions and I also came up with a new potential one, red herring. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.214.48.200 (talk) 13:56, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Youthful cheering on sports teams

Hello!

I have noticed that when fans cheer on their team, or players motivate eachother, they say lads/boys/guys/girls, youthful words, even if they are grown adults. Why do they use these words and not women, ladies, men etc? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.150.31.143 (talk) 13:24, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Sounds like the process of neoteny, to me. That is, sports players are thought of as if they were kids, which includes them playing games, often wearing kid's clothes, like shorts, and acting like kids, as in having tantrums and such. Facial hair was also traditionally discouraged on sports teams. StuRat (talk) 13:33, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

The guy pitching for A's the other night looked like he was about 15. It's often the case that writers who are a generation or more older than the athletes think of them as kids. As with the famous book about the Brooklyn Dodgers, The Boys of Summer. And in my age bracket, looking at pictures of old-time ballplayers in their prime, they do indeed look young. I recall also a couple of old-time ex-Cubs, one in his 90s and one in his 70s. The older one referred to the younger one as "the boy". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:48, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

This looks to me like a middle school class picture. --Nelson Ricardo (talk) 15:28, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

People often do this for a peer group, especially a single-sex one. The lads at work. An evening out with the girls. Itsmejudith (talk) 18:01, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

As I noted here last week, Australian football players always refer to each other as "the boys". Always. It seems to be compulsory. I don't know that this happens so much with cricket, hockey or other team sports. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 18:38, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Heard a couple of players from the Sunday's winning team in Australia's National Rugby League Grand Final repeatedly refer to their fellow players as "my mates" when being interviewed yesterday. (Then, when thanked by the interviewer at the end of the interview, said "Thanks mate.") HiLo48 (talk) 21:51, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

My mother worked in various offices in London and always referred to her female colleagues as "girls" (a lot of office jobs were restricted to women back in the day). It came as a bit of a surprise when one of the "girls" had a retirement party. I could also mention some military songs such as Rally 'Round the Flag, Boys!, Come Cheer Up, my Lads and Boys of the Old Brigade. Nothing to do with thinking of each other as children in my opinion. Alansplodge (talk) 19:31, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

I once asked a group of twenty-something women in the office why they referred to each other as "girls" rather than "women". The answer came back in unison: "Women are old." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:15, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

You get the same thing in Japanese, with women objecting to being called onna, preferring onna-no ko (lit. "child woman"). There seems to be an almost inevitable correlation between intimacy and condescension in many languages. A man calling a woman a "girl" may be seen as disrespectful, but the respectful term "lady" is just as bad in the opposite direction, as it's what boys call their elders.

It would be interesting to investigate the difference between, say, Come on, boys! and Come on, men! in the military. Does boys suggest camaraderie? Or maybe paternalistic protectiveness of their commander? What connotation would it signal to change the form of address to men? — kwami (talk) 02:07, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

I take it as simply expressing affection. It sounds kind of odd used of the opposition. "Kick their asses, boys!" makes a lot more sense than "Kick those boys asses!" We don't have tu/vous, so we improvise. μηδείς (talk) 03:04, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes, definitely camaraderie, and that seems to be the case for "girls" in the office too (and thus not really appropriate for men, who aren't one of the girls). Just wondering if there isn't also a paternalistic connotation in the military. — kwami (talk) 03:10, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Stress in Greek names

Anyone know where the (English) stress is in these names? I can't tell whether the Greek vowels are long or short:

Anaxo, Diobesi, Electryon, Elpeus, Erythras, Eurycyda, Euryte, Hyrieus.

Thanks, — kwami (talk) 15:44, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't know where the stress is in the English pronunciation of these names, but I do know that the location of stress in the English pronunciation of these names will not tell you anything about the length of the vowels in Greek, nor will the length of the vowels in Greek tell you anything about the stress location in English. Aɴɢʀ (talk) 20:30, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

I think if we need the English pronunciation this is more useful.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 00:42, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Horse and cart/wagon/buggy/carriage/whathaveyou

What is the difference between any of these things?

• horse and cart
• horse and wagon
• horse and buggy
• horse and carriage 164.107.102.31 (talk) 15:53, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

(1) A cart carries cargo and usually has two wheels, I think; (2) a wagon carries cargo and has four wheels; (3) a buggy carries passengers and is usually open on top, I think; (4) a carriage carries passengers and is usually enclosed. But I don't think any of those distinctions is hard and fast. See horse and buggy, carriage, and cart. Looie496 (talk) 16:12, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

See also our list of seventy-something different types of horse drawn carriage. Whoa!--Shantavira|^{feed me} 16:33, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Some of those carriages are even horseless. μηδείς (talk) 18:02, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Finding place name rhymes

Can anyone suggest a source for geographic names that rhyme with a particular word? E.g., enter "seeds" and the source suggests Leeds.

I tried to search for a website that does this but only found suggestions of words that rhyme with "geographic" or "place".

Thanks. CBHA (talk) 19:51, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Speaking of rhyme

Is there any word on earth that rhyme with orange? I cannot find anything. Miss Bono ^{[hello, hello!]} 19:53, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

That's a classic. See orange_(word)#Rhyme. ---Sluzzelin talk 19:58, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Oh, thanks. Miss Bono ^{[hello, hello!]} 20:20, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

The answer is a very old joke: "East Orange". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:10, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

There is an article "List of English words without rhymes". --Theurgist (talk) 21:36, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

When I was a candidate for the Trans-Atlantic Fan Fund, Dave Langford promised to take me to Blorenge, so that I would finally see something that rhymed with me. Alas, I lost my race. --Orange Mike | Talk 01:12, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

There's no reason to have one. Clarityfiend (talk) 03:26, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

I was once told that "lozenge" was the answer to this question. It is in some dialects of English but not all. --TammyMoet (talk) 13:17, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Not in mine. I'd go with "door hinge". StuRat (talk) 13:45, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Door hinge doesn't work in my native dialect, although Carhenge is close. "Orange, ooh!" and "Aren't you?" rhyme. μηδείς (talk) 18:31, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

This is way too difficult for me. Miss Bono ^{[hello, hello!]} 18:50, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

According to their dialect, some people pronounce orange as if it were spelt arange, I am one of them. The closest you could come in Spanish would be órinch versus árinch. μηδείς (talk) 01:39, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Those would be the folks who pronounce one of the biggest orange-producing states "Flahrida". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:20, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes. Last time I was in Flarida someone flang an arange down the carridor and hit me in the farhead. μηδείς (talk) 20:55, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

/-ɪndʒ/: binge challenge cringe fringe hinge impinge infringe lozenge scavenge singe syringe tinge twinge unhinge.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 02:13, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

That looks good, except that rhymes have the same stressed vowel + whatever comes next. Not just the same final vowel (unless the final vowel bears the main stress, such as intense, exert, assure, indeed ...). The stressed vowel in orange is the o. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 02:22, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

What sources say that it has to be stressed?--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 13:48, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

What do you mean "has to"? It is the stressed vowel in that word, all dictionaries that show stress agree on this. Are you making some point about the stress being moved for metrical necessity in a poem? μηδείς (talk) 16:17, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Why should the rhyme vowel be stressed? The last syllable of the words has the same vowel as well as the same consonants it's quite enough to rhyme with orange.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 16:24, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

I see what's going on here. When we say that Word A does or does not rhyme with Word B, the default assumption is that we're considering only perfect rhymes. There is no perfect rhyme for 'orange'. However, there are other types of rhymes, such as general rhymes, and the list supplied by Lüboslóv are all general rhymes for 'orange'. It's curious that the non-specific use of 'rhyme' is the one that's not the 'general' rhyme, but that's the way it seems to be. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 18:04, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

The other point we all seem to have missed (including me till now), is that Miss Bono asked for "any word on earth", not just any word in English, that rhymes with 'orange'. There could be a word in Urdu or Quechua that fits the bill, for all I know. Is there some massive tome containing all the words in every language and dialect on Earth, all their varying pronunciations, and which rhyme with which? No, I thought not. Time to get started, methinks. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 18:18, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

W and V as English-language vowels

Years ago, I was taught the usual "A, E, I, O, U, and sometimes Y". I was taught that loanwords like "crwth" and "cwm", and archaic words like "svrd", "vlm", and "vrn" were vowel-less. Our article seems to tell me that a vowel is a sound, rather than a written letter. Are these words vowel-less or are W and V considered vowels in these situations. Joefromrandb (talk) 20:48, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

I remember being taught "sometimes Y and W". But I think the W isn't so much about cwm and crwth (the letter w is used as a vowel in those words, but the orthography is Welsh rather than English, so all bets are off). It's more about law and bow. As for the archaic spellings with "v", those v's are really u's (as recently as Shakespeare, there was no clear distinction — you can find "love" spelled "loue" in manuscripts from the time). --Trovatore (talk) 21:46, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

It depends. How is "vlm" pronounced? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:11, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

"Elm". Joefromrandb (talk) 21:13, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

What do "vlm", "svrd" and "vrn" mean? --Theurgist (talk) 21:16, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

They are centuries-old spellings (OED) of "elm", "sword", and "urn", respectively. Joefromrandb (talk) 21:36, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Using "v" as "u", sort of? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:39, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Or "o" or "e", I suppose. Joefromrandb (talk) 21:44, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Sort of. "V" and "u" were the same letter in those days, as was "j" and "i". My copy of the OED only has "ulm" and "swrd", though it does have "vrn". These were just typographic variants, like "ɑ" for "a" or "ɡ" for "g". — kwami (talk) 01:57, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

There is an article English words without vowels. --Theurgist (talk) 21:17, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for that, although I'm still unclear whether the "w" in "crwth" is considered a vowel or a "vowel-sound". Joefromrandb (talk) 21:44, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

"Vowel" by default means "vowel sound". --Trovatore (talk) 21:47, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

It's a normal vowel letter in Welsh. It's highly unusual in English. — kwami (talk) 02:00, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

To answer Joefromandb directly, "w" in Welsh is usually a "u" type vowel, and "y" is a schwa or an "i" type vowel when used as the only vowel in a syllable. (It's complicated and varies by dialects.)

The "v" you have seen above in older English spellings is just a v standing for a u vowel as you see in monuments, like SENATVS POPVLVSQVE ROMANVS. Originally the two were stylistic variants in printing/writing and did not consistently stand for two separate letters, since in Latin the difference depended (almost) entirely on context. The letter v in Latin sood for a "u" by itself and for a "w" in front of vowels. Confusing, and the reason we now have u, v, and w all from Latin v. μηδείς (talk) 03:15, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Whoever taught you that those words were vowelless was using a definition of "vowel" to mean "letter that does not conventionally represent a vowel in current English orthography". While this definition is in common use, these are cases where it breaks down, because the words are clearly not vowelless in any useful sense. As for whether they are "considered" vowelless, I don't consider them so. Whose consideration are you interested in?

Who is "I"? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 11:24, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Looks like User:ColinFine 11:14, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:36, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Am I missing something here? Joefromrandb (talk) 23:27, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

ColinFine neglected to sign his post. JackofOz asked who had written the unsigned post. Baseball Bugs answered Jack's question. You didn't miss anything. ---Sluzzelin talk 23:38, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Oh. Joefromrandb (talk) 00:17, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

In languages using abjad writing systems, such as Arabic and Hebrew, all words are vowelless unless they contain matres lectionis (per this definition). For example, the name of Qatar is spelt in Arabic with three letters, all of which are consonants: Q, Ṭ, and R. --Theurgist (talk) 18:19, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

I would reword that to state: "...all words are written vowel-less unless they, etc." The words do have vowels, distinguished by the diacritics of Niqqud in Hebrew and similar marks in Arabic. -- Deborahjay (talk) 11:29, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

That's why I specified "per this definition". --Theurgist (talk) 11:49, 9 October 2013 (UTC)

Poetry and/or songs in sign languages

Do they exist? If yes, what features of sign languages are analogous to rythm, meter, and other features that distinguish songs and poems from ordinary speech? Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 21:17, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes, they do. "An Overview of Sign Language Poetry" by Rachel Sutton-Spence might be a good start. ---Sluzzelin talk 21:28, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Why is Rocio a girl (in Spanish)

I thought that -o means masculine in Spanish, but then you have names like Rocio who are girls. OsmanRF34 (talk) 23:39, 7 October 2013 (UTC)

Short for La Virgen del Rocío. μηδείς (talk) 00:05, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

That makes sense. Incidentally, the article on Rocío Dúrcal reads like it was lifted from somewhere. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:13, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

You also have lots of men with Maria as one of their names, though that's presumably not the name they go by. — kwami (talk) 01:52, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

That's usually as a middle name. There are various other apparently masculine Spanish first names for girls. I think Dolores, in English or Spanish, is one of the most beautiful of all names, except for what it means. μηδείς (talk) 02:57, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

It mean pain Miss Bono ^{[hello, hello!]} 12:28, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Of both the physical and emotional kind. It's said to be short for Maria de los Dolores or "Mary of the Sorrows",[1] yet another referback to Mary the Virgin Mother of Jesus. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:24, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

We had a similar question about the name "Rosario" last year (here. "Conseulo" is another example. Adam Bishop (talk) 09:36, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

There are women named José -which tends to be a male name -. Rubí is another female name that means Ruby. As for Rocío... there was this amazing singer with the same name. Miss Bono ^{[hello, hello!]} 12:28, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Another name that end with -o and it's a name for a girl is Lucero -- which means bright star. Miss Bono ^{[hello, hello!]} 12:46, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

The name "Rocío" means "dew".—Wavelength (talk) 00:42, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes. It's from Late Latin roscidus / roscida, which Google Translate says means "bedewed" or "dewy". There's an obscure English word, "roscid", obviously taken directly from the Latin, and which likewise means "dewy". The Spanish for "dewy" is rociado / rociada. What "dew" has to do with that particular statue of the Virgin Mary is not clear. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:03, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

That's the source of the "rose" in the name of the plant rosemary: "sea dew", ros marinus. μηδείς (talk) 01:34, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

I know a girl named Rosemary. Miss Bono ^{[hello, hello!]} 15:01, 11 October 2013 (UTC)

And also “Pilar” (coming from Santa Maria del Pilar, in “la Catedral-Basílica de Nuestra Señora del Pilar de Zaragoza”) , though a pillar is not a very feminine symbol...But this christian name is also given to boys in central Spain (just passing by, adding my salt grain). T.y. Arapaima (talk) 08:25, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

For female pillar see Caryatid. μηδείς (talk) 16:14, 10 October 2013 (UTC)