Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates/Middle Ages/archive1

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Archived comments from MasterofHisOwnDomain[edit]

  • There is no discussion in the etymology section of the term medieval, even though it is used synonymously with Middle Ages throughout the article, and redirects here.
    • I'll try to find something, but it's probably from the latin medium aevum... Ealdgyth - Talk 22:43, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • Added ... handy to have a Random House Dictionary floating (well... not floating, as the thing is like 12 pounds or something insane) around. That do you? Ealdgyth - Talk 22:56, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I've seen 'Middle Ages' used (probably erroneously) to describe events during this period that take place outside of Europe, i.e., medieval Japan. Could this be briefly discussed?
    • It's not usually discussed in RS though - the definition of "Middle Ages" pretty much precludes it being used outside. Medieval is occasionally applied to non-European periods, but the dates don't usually align, so it's pretty hard to find discussion in historical or scholarly sources. In your example, medieval Japan covers totally different dates (and I'm not a scholar of Japan, so I'd be hesitant to give the dates ... but it could be argued that that period goes until Perry's opening of Japan, certainly not congruent with the European dates!) Ealdgyth - Talk 22:43, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Usually 1603 & the Tokugawa Shogunate I think. I've said elsewhere that Medieval periods in global history needs its own article, but Middle Ages is almost always just Europe, hence the article title works. Johnbod (talk) 23:27, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • In Modern Image, use of the term "medieval" as a perjorative to refer to something outdated or old-fashioned?
  • In the same vein, I have a feeling that Modern Image doesn't adequately cover how we view the period, although I can't think of any concrete examples at the moment to suggest. Will consider it further. MasterOfHisOwnDomain (talk) 22:25, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I "inherited" that section. One suggestion might be to rename it something slightly different - perhaps "Modern misconceptions"? Ealdgyth - Talk 22:43, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Or "Modern perceptions" - "image" is not good. Johnbod (talk) 23:27, 1 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
My most favoured is "Modern perceptions" because it's a more open title, but "Misconceptions" is also fine. MasterOfHisOwnDomain (talk) 08:15, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Archived comments from Hchc2009[edit]

Minor points:

  • "against the renewed war with Sassanid Persia, which began in the middle of the 3rd century" - unclear if this means that there was a previous war before the middle of the 3rd century, which was renewed in the middle of the 3rd century; or if there was a war from the middle of the 3rd century, which was renewed later in the century. You could lose "renewed", and it would probably remove any confusion.
Does ""against the war with Sassanid Persia, which revived in the middle of the 3rd century" work? Johnbod (talk) 15:03, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Changed to Johnbod's formulation. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:20, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Other groups of barbarians took part in the movements of peoples in this time period. " this read a little awkwardly to me.
  • "and no barbarian king in the west dared to elevate himself to the position of Emperor of the West, but Byzantine control of most of the West could not be sustained" - consistency of capitalisation of "west"
Drop down the 3rd West I'd say, or use "Western Empire". Johnbod (talk) 15:03, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Went with "Western Empire" there. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:20, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Although the activity of the barbarians is usually described as "invasions"" - should that be "activities" to match the plural of "invasions"?
Switched. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:20, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • " Intermarriage between the new kings and the Roman elites was common" - I'm not sure its been made clear yet that the new kings weren't Romans.
Now it reads "The emperors of the 5th century were often controlled by military strongmen such as Stilicho (d. 408), Aspar (d. 471), Ricimer (d. 472), or Gundobad (d. 516), who were partly or fully of non-Roman background. When the line of western emperors ceased, many of the kings who replaced them were from the same background. Intermarriage between the new kings and the Roman elites was common." - does that make it clearer? Ealdgyth - Talk 14:20, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • " including the popular assemblies that allowed free male tribal members more say in political matters" - more say than whom?
Now reads "that allowed free male tribal members more say in political matters than was common in the Roman state." Ealdgyth - Talk 14:20, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Much of the intellectual culture of the new kingdoms" - I wasn't certain what an intellectual culture was exactly. (I could think of several things it might be)
Now reads "Much of the scholarly and written culture of the new kingdoms was also based..." Ealdgyth - Talk 14:20, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Many of the new political entities no longer provided their armies with tax revenues..." - felt a bit ugly as a construction. "Many of the new political entities no longer supported their armies through taxes, instead relying on granting them land or rents."?
Went with your construction. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:20, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • " the eastern section of the Roman Empire" - I think earlier the article had started calling it just the Eastern Roman Empire.
Switched. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:20, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "At the emperor's death" - Should emperor have a capital letter in this case? (it standing in for a specific, not generic, emperor?)
I'll defer to Malleus on this, but I think that general MOS trends are against this. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:20, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I'm definitely against it, as in this context "emperor" isn't a proper noun. Malleus Fatuorum 15:56, 6 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Justinian's reconquests have been criticized" - by who?
Almost every historian. Now reads "Justinian's reconquests have been criticized by historians..." Ealdgyth - Talk 14:20, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • " the essentially civilian nature of the empire" - I wasn't sure this read well.
  • " It began as a small invasion" - an invasion, even if small, doesn't sound much like an "infiltration"!
Now reads "It began small, ..." Ealdgyth - Talk 14:20, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Further complications were the involvement of the emperor Maurice" - plural of complications, singular example.
Fixed. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:20, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "As some of the older Roman elite families died out others became more involved with Church than secular affairs." - I couldn't see the link between the two halves of the sentence.
Now reads "In Western Europe, some of the older Roman elite families died out while others became more involved with Church than secular affairs." Ealdgyth - Talk 14:20, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "With laymen, a similar change took place, with the aristocratic culture focusing on great feasts held in halls." - what's the similarity with the changes in the previous paragraph, and how does it link to the feasts?
Now reads "With laymen, changes also took place, with the aristocratic culture focusing on great feasts held in halls rather than on literary pursuits." Ealdgyth - Talk 14:20, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • " Most feuds seem to have ended quickly with the payment of some sort of compensation." - this could mean two different things (feuds ended quickly when payment was made; most feuds ended quickly, because payments were made)
These seem the same to me, pretty much. Johnbod (talk) 15:03, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
To take a comparative example, in traditional Pashtu society, blood feuds ended quickly once (or if) payment was made; in practice, most feuds didn't end quickly, as payment wasn't made. Hchc2009 (talk) 16:51, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Well in the MA they did end quickly, both "when" and "because" payment was made. I'm still not seeing a distinction. Johnbod (talk) 02:21, 4 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Have to agree with Johnbod here, I'm not seeing the distinction... Ealdgyth - Talk 14:20, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • " Although Italian cities remained inhabited places" - is "places" needed here?
No I think Johnbod (talk) 15:03, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Removed. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:20, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • A bit more to come. Hchc2009 (talk) 18:33, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "By the middle of the 8th century, new trading patterns were emerging in the Mediterranean" I think there's a sudden switch here between Islamic forces, and Arabs.
I'm open to suggestions for how to phrase this better... Ealdgyth - Talk 14:27, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "African trade goods slowly leave the archaeological record" I know what is meant here, but is there an easier way to state the "so-what", rather than the evidence? (e.g. "African goods stopped being imported into Europe..."?)
Went with your suggestion. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:27, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The replacement of trade goods with local products" - I'm not sure that I could easily distinguish between "trade goods" and "local products", given that local trade persisted
"goods for long-range trade" ? Johnbod (talk) 15:03, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Went with "The replacement of goods from long-range trade with local products was a trend..." although better suggestions are welcome. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:27, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "with little pottery or other complex products." - the language here felt odd; a non-archaeologist might not think of a pot as being a "complex product"
I agree but can't think of a better way to state it that stays true to the source. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:41, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
As a traded product, pottery is much more complex than basic commodities, if only because you have to find designs that distant markets like. In ancient Roman pottery both Gaul (including modern Germany) and North Africa were massive suppliers to Italy and the capital, with sophisticated designs. Not so in the MA. Johnbod (talk) 14:28, 10 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The various Germanic states in the west all had coinages that imitated existing Roman and Byzantine forms." Could coinage just be "coins"?
I'm not sure, rather stay with the phrasing I know is accurate unless some expert weighs in. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:41, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Harmless change I think. One might use "designs" instead of "forms" too. Johnbod (talk) 14:42, 10 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "No silver coins denominated in multiple units were minted." - is there any simpler way of saying this?
Not that I could think or .... but suggestions welcome. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:41, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"Silver coins were only minted in a single denomination" perhaps - not sure how much clearer that is. Johnbod (talk) 14:42, 10 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Christianity was a major unifying factor between Eastern and western Europe" - inconsistent capitalisation
Got this. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:41, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "but the conquest of North Africa sundered maritime connections " - "broke" rather than "sundered"?
But ... but ... I want to show off my vocabulary! (And I suspect I'm trying to avoid too close paraphrasing here... ) Ealdgyth - Talk 14:41, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Louis divided the rest of the empire..." " Louis the German (d. 876), the middle child, who had been rebellious to the last," Does this mean that Louis divided the empire on his death, and the L the German was rebellious up until then? It wasn't very clear.
Yes it does. It's a very confused period. Ealdgyth - Talk 14:41, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The breakup of the Abbasid dynasty meant that the Islamic world fragmented into smaller political states, some of which began expanding into Italy and Sicily, as well as over the Pyrenees into the southern parts of the Frankish kingdoms" - The jump to "The breakup..." was a bit jarring, as it wasn't clear what the link with the rest of the paragraph was until the second half.
I'm not sure how to better word this, however. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:34, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"After the breakup of the Abbasid dynasty the Islamic world fragmented ...." Johnbod (talk) 14:42, 10 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The western Frankish kingdom was more fragmented, and although a king remained nominally in charge, much of the political power had devolved to the local lords." - "kings" rather than "a king" might be clearer.
took your suggestion. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:34, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Few large stone buildings were constructed between the Constantinian basilicas of the 4th century and the 8th century" - could be read two different ways - might be worth rewording slightly.
What two ways? Johnbod (talk) 15:03, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Either that "Few large stone buildings were constructed between the building of the Constantinian basilicas in the 4th century and the 8th century" (which is what is meant), or that the sentence was making a physical point (there were various basilicas, and large stone buildings were built between them). It's the first time that basilicas are mentioned in the article, so the "the Constantinian basilicas" is probably what was throwing me off. Hchc2009 (talk) 16:51, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The 4th century is before the MA starts. I doubt the possible "physical point" will occur to many. It certainly didn't to me. If we were talking about a specific place, say Rome, maybe, but otherwise not. Johnbod (talk) 02:21, 4 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "One feature of the basilica was the use of a transept,[131] or the "arms" of a cross-shaped building that are perpendicular to the long nave." - there's a change of tense here which was a little disconcerting.
Changed Ealdgyth - Talk 15:34, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "During the later Roman Empire, the principal military developments had to do with attempts to create an effective cavalry force" - felt a little wordy ("had to do with attempts to...")
" developments concerned attempts ..." is good pompous encyclopedic prose. Johnbod (talk) 15:03, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Went with "principal military developments were attempts to create an effective cavalry" Ealdgyth - Talk 15:34, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The creation of cataphract-type soldiers was an important feature of 5th-century Roman military developments. " I'm not sure this is quite right (they were created, and were an important development, but were they a feature of multiple developments?)
Now reads "The creation of cataphract-type soldiers was an important feature of the 5th-century Roman military.." Ealdgyth - Talk 15:34, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • " whoh had a high percentage of cavalry in their armies" - spare "h" there
Fixed. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:34, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The importance of infantry and light cavalry began to decline during the early Carolingian period, with a corresponding dominance of military events by the elite. " - Not sure I agree here. Plenty of infantry soldiers have been elite; I think it would be fairer to say "with a growing dominance of elite heavy cavalry" perhaps?
Went with your construction. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:34, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The use of militia-type levies of the free population" - felt an ungainly construct
Suggestions welcome... Ealdgyth - Talk 15:34, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"The use of local citizen levies declined...", "The conscription of local freemen declined over..."? Hchc2009 (talk) 20:12, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In military technology, one of the main change" - "changes"
Fixed. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:34, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Another great change was the introduction of the stirrup, which allowed the more effective use of cavalry as shock troops." - a bit repetitious from the last para
Now reads "Another change was the introduction of the stirrup, increasing the effectiveness of cavalry as shock troops." Ealdgyth - Talk 15:34, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • More to follow. Hchc2009 (talk) 19:20, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    • I see these and will get them all in one swoop when you're done. Ealdgyth - Talk 21:01, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Nobles, both the titled nobility and simple knights, were the exploiters of the manors and the peasants, although they did not own lands outright, but were granted rights to the income from a manor or other lands by an overlord through the system of feudalism. " - I wasn't sure "exploiters" felt neutral here.
Unfortunately, I can't think of a better word that still manages to convey that they pretty much had the right to exploit their serfs... suggestions are welcome (I did avoid using "oppress" .. which you see often in the literature) Ealdgyth - Talk 16:02, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Women in the Middle Ages were officially required to be subordinate to some male, whether their father, husband, or other kinsmen" - is "officially" really correct? (Which official decreed this?) I'd argue that "typically subordinate" might be more accurate, particularly given the ambiguous role of widows etc.
We could use "legally" if you'd prefer... Ealdgyth - Talk 16:02, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and gold coinage was again minted in Europe" - "gold coins"?
As above, I'm hesitant to go away from what the source uses here in case I miss some nuance. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:02, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Same difference. Johnbod (talk) 14:42, 10 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "letters of credit also emerged" - repetition of emerged
Changed to "appeared". Ealdgyth - Talk 16:02, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The High Middle Ages was the formative period in the history of the Western state. " - "modern Western state"?
Done. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:02, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Hungary owed its settlement to the Magyars, who settled there around 900 under King Árpád" - ? I think there were people living in Hungary before the Magyars...
Suggestions on better wording? I could go with "foundation" instead of "settlement"... Ealdgyth - Talk 16:02, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"Hungary was settled by the Magyars, who arrived there around 900 under King Árpád" Johnbod (talk) 14:42, 10 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I like Johnbod's variant. Hchc2009 (talk) 20:12, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Although Barbarossa managed to rule effectively, the basic problems remained, and his successors continued to struggle into the 13th century." - the phrasing here didn't quite work for me ("managed to rule", "continued to struggle into...")
But they did struggle - they were pretty much always in some sort of difficulty ... partly due to the nature of their state. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:02, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
"Although Barbarossa was able to rule effectively, the underlying problems remained and troubled his successors into the 13th century."? (else we've got three "struggles/struggled" in one para) Hchc2009 (talk) 20:12, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • A bit more to come. Hchc2009 (talk) 16:51, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Another outgrowth of the crusades were the foundation of a new type of monastic order," - matching of "were" and "a new type"
Fixed. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:02, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "From the fairly tentative beginnings known as the" - I don't think "fairly" is needed here.
I'll leave this to Johnbod - he's the art expert. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:02, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, all right then; changed. Johnbod (talk) 17:27, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • " the lower rents were balanced out by the lower demand for food, which cut into agricultural income" -I think we need to be clear here what sort of agricultural income we mean (there's a difference between between rental income for agricultural lands, and the income of agricultural workers).
Actually it means both here. But I've changed it to "Wages rose as landlords sought to entice the reduced number of available workers to their fields. Further problems were the lower rents and lower demands for food, both of which cut into agricultural income." Ealdgyth - Talk 16:02, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Points of substance:

  • "*"Stone castles began to be constructed in the 9th and 10th centuries in response to the disorder of the time, and allowed inhabitants to take refuge from invaders." - I'm not certain this is quite right. Certainly in Western Europe, the pattern is the initial construction of wooden castles, with stone castles appearing as much for status reasons as defensive, during the period. I'd have to check, but the initial use of castles isn't, I'd suggest for protecting local inhabitants. Worth taking a look at the Castle article; there's some more recent scholarship as well, but I don't think it contradicts that article.
Yes, perhaps "Castles, initially in wood but later in stone, began..." and "allowed lords protection from rivals" more typically for early ones, and in post-conquest England disgruntled Anglo-Saxons. Johnbod (talk) 02:21, 4 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Changed to "Castles, initially in wood but later in stone, began to be constructed in the 9th and 10th centuries in response to the disorder of the time, and provided protection from invaders as well as allowed lords defence from rivals." I think it's important to remember that the castles start appearing in the times of invasions ... they didn't just arise because of local politics. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:02, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • " Women's work generally consisted of household or other domestically inclined tasks. Peasant women were usually responsible for taking care of the household, child-care, as well as gardening and animal husbandry near the house." I may be being picky (this is an overview, after all), but this does vary quite a lot by period and location.
I think we're on pretty safe ground here, as most of the time, they were stuck in house-related tasks. There were exceptions, of course, but this is an overview article. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:02, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The only role open to women in the Church was that of nuns, as they were unable to become priests." - and religious recluses? Hchc2009 (talk) 16:51, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
There were some very unreclusive freelance mystics in the late medieval church, like Margery Kempe, whose highly ostentatious ways of carrying on are not mentioned in WP's article. Perhaps: "In the church hierarchy, women were restricted to roles in the female orders.." - sounds a bit lame. Johnbod (talk) 02:21, 4 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
The history of mystics and other women non-nuns is very ... iffy. Mostly, they weren't tolerated "in" the church - they faced serious obstacles from the church hierarchy at every turn (look at the problems beguines faced...) Ealdgyth - Talk 16:02, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The construction of cathedrals and castles advanced building technology, leading to the development of large stone buildings." Is this referenced from Barber? (NB: I don't think I've seen many argue that castles created technologies then applied elsewhere on other buildings, but I could be wrong.)
Yes, it is. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:02, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Crossbows, which had been known in Late Antiquity, increased in use partly because of the increase in siege warfare in the 10th and 11th centuries." - this is one factor, but there are others (e.g. its penetrative power against armour; technical improvements in crossbow power during the period; training time, etc.)
Again, an overview. I think its clear that we're only listing some ... if I listed everything for all the stuff in the article we'd hit 20,000 words Ealdgyth - Talk 16:02, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • " Cannon were being used for sieges in the 1320s, and hand-held guns were in use by the 1360s" - Is it worth noting that initially (at least in England) these were used defensively (i.e. people weren't firing guns at fortifications, they were being used by the defenders?)
I think we're better off avoiding going into too much detail... it wasn't that much after first appearance that they show up on the other side of sieges. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:02, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the causes of the Great Famine included the climatic change of the slow transition from the Medieval Warm Period to the Little Ice Age, and also overspecialisation in single crops, which left the population vulnerable when bad weather caused crop failures." - I'm not an expert, but I'd argue that this gives undue prominence to the overspecialisation argument (I'd suggest that the more usual explanations are simply climatic change, a string of bad weather, backed by very high population levels and - possibly - soil exhaustion.)
Agree. Cut the overspecializtion bit. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:02, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Execution of some of the ringleaders of the jacquerie, from a 14th-century manuscript of the Chroniques de France ou de St Denis" - I've usually seen jacquerie capitalised.
Yes, should be. Johnbod (talk) 19:58, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Kings profited from warfare by gaining land and extended royal legislation throughout their kingdoms." - I wasn't sure what sort of "gaining land" was meant here (e.g. gaining land by conquest, or consolidating the royal demensne at home?)
I reworded to "Kings profited from warfare which extended royal legislation throughout their kingdoms and increased the lands they directly controlled." does that work better? Ealdgyth - Talk 16:06, 20 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Paying for the wars required that methods of taxation become more efficient, and the rate of taxation often increased." - Just to check: "efficient" (it cost the Crown less money to raise each £ of revenue) or "effective" (they raised more in taxes)?
Both. Now reads "Paying for the wars required that methods of taxation become more effective and efficient,..." Ealdgyth - Talk 16:06, 20 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The Late Middle Ages in Europe as a whole correspond to the Trecento and Early Renaissance in Italy, although Northern Europe and Spain continued to use Gothic styles, increasingly elaborate in the 15th century, until almost the end of the period." - it felt that something was missing after Renaissance; "artistic styles"? "architectural styles"?Hchc2009 (talk) 19:50, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Trecento & Early Renaissance are general cultural periods, used to cover literature of all sorts & things like politics too. That's also, to a lesser extent, true of "Gothic" for Northern Europe. Johnbod (talk) 19:58, 15 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • In that case, how about "The Late Middle Ages in Europe as a whole correspond to the Trecento and Early Renaissance cultural periods in Italy..."? I found Trecento linked earlier, but the first time I read it in this paragraph I wasn't at all sure quite what it referred to.

Archived comments from Sarastro1[edit]

  • My only content reservation is that religion seems downplayed slightly; Europe seems to become Christian awfully easily in the article, with little mention of the conversion, and there is nothing about the religions which preceded it, no matter how little was known. Actually, re-reading, and looking at the next sections, I don't actually think this is the case. Perhaps a little on the pre-Christian religions, if it is available, and their replacement with Christianity? But no big deal. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:10, 4 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "when the Hunnic confederation he led fell apart": Fell apart seems slightly less encyclopaedic than the surrounding text.
I think we're probably okay here... "total collapse" is pretty much what happened here... the Huns are done as a political and military force with Attila's death. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:25, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The last emperor of the west, Romulus Augustulus, was deposed in 476, which has led that year to be traditionally cited as the end of the Western Roman Empire.": "Which has led that year" lacks a little elegance. What about something like "The deposition of the last emperor of the west, Romulus Augustus, in 476 traditionally marked the end of the Western Roman Empire [among historians?]."
Went with "The deposition of the last emperor of the west, Romulus Augustus, in 476 has traditionally marked the end of the Western Roman Empire."
  • "With the invasions new ethnic groups entered parts of Europe…": "with the invasions" seems a bit ambiguous: does it mean in the sense that the groups accompanied the invaders, or the ethnic groups were invaders who settled?
    Fixed I think. Malleus Fatuorum 05:53, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "but the settlement was uneven, with some regions having a larger settlement of new peoples than others. Gaul's settlement was uneven": Uneven…uneven.
    Fixed. Malleus Fatuorum 05:53, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "with the barbarians settling much more extensively in the north-east than in the south-west": noun plus -ing.
    Fixed. Malleus Fatuorum 05:53, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "This led to a period of peace, but when Maurice was overthrown in turn": This is the first overthrow mentioned in the text which involved Maurice.
Err... previous sentence "A further complication was the involvement of the emperor Maurice (r. 582–602) in Persian politics when he intervened in a succession dispute. This led to a period of peace, but when Maurice was overthrown in turn, the Persians invaded and during the reign of the emperor Heraclius (r. 610–641) managed to control large chunks of the Empire, including Egypt, Syria, and Asia Minor." Ealdgyth - Talk 16:25, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
I would suggest that, to the general reader, succession dispute does not equal overthrow. Sarastro1 (talk) 18:32, 6 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • With laymen, a similar change took place, with the aristocratic culture focusing on great feasts held in halls": With … with and another noun plus -ing.
Fixed. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:25, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In Anglo-Saxon society the lack of many child rulers meant a lesser role for women as queen mothers": This reads like a comparison to elsewhere, but nothing about mothers of child rulers in mentioned previously.
Previous sentence "Women took part in aristocratic society mainly in their roles as wives or mothers of men, with the role of mother of a ruler being especially prominent in Merovingian Gaul. In Anglo-Saxon society the lack of many child rulers meant a lesser role for women as queen mothers, but this was compensated for by the increased role played by abbesses of monasteries." Ealdgyth - Talk 16:25, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Fair enough. It still reads as a comparison to me, but not a big deal. Sarastro1 (talk) 18:32, 6 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

More comments: Read to the end of the Early Middle Ages now. Still looking brilliant. Sarastro1 (talk) 20:10, 4 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • "Monks were also the authors of new works, including history, theology, and other subjects, written by authors such as Bede (d. 735), a native of northern England who wrote in the late 7th and early 8th century.": "authors…authors", and do we need "and other subjects" given the use of "including"?
Unless I replace the second author with 'writer', I think we can do with a bit of repetition here. I also want to emphasize the "other subjects" here, so its probably safe enough. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:25, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The Frankish kingdom in northern Gaul split into kingdoms called Austrasia, Neustria, and Burgundy during the 6th and 7th centuries under the Merovingians, who were descended from Clovis": This looks slightly confusing. We do not say who the Merovingians are, and it looks odd that there are multiple kingdoms under them.
I'm not seeing the confusion possiblities, but have reworded slightly to "The Frankish kingdom in northern Gaul split into kingdoms called Austrasia, Neustria, and Burgundy during the 6th and 7th centuries, all of them ruled by the Merovingian dynasty, who were descended from Clovis." Ealdgyth - Talk 16:25, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "…who became the power behind the throne": And similarly: what throne?
Now "behind the Austrasian throne" Ealdgyth - Talk 16:25, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The coronation of Charlemagne as emperor on Christmas Day 800": I think we may need to say who crowned him, as there is a bit of a vacuum in the current sentence, and I think Leo is quite a big part of that story.
Current scholarship plays down the importance of Leo's crowning. Keep in mind that Charlemagne went on to crown his own son rather than get papal sanction, and for a number of years after that it wasn't common for the papacy to be involved in imperial selection. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:25, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • In the Carolingian breakup section, it is a little vague where people are kings of. Was there no other name than "western" and "eastern" lands? For example, what would Hugh Capet have been crowned as king of? And what about Conrad I? (I always understood Hugh Capet to be "King of the Franks", or something similar) But then the next paragraph is rather more certain, naming a Frankish king and a German and Italian kingdom.
It was vague up until about the time of Capet, actually. They sorta solidified then, but prior to that (and especially at the very start of the breakup) it was a bit fluid. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:25, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "were under continual Magyar assault until their defeat at the Battle of Lechfeld in 955": Slightly ambiguous who was defeated here.
Is "assault until the invader's defeat at the" better? Ealdgyth - Talk 16:25, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The use of militia-type levies of the free population also declined over the Carolingian period": We mention a decline without ever stating that it had happened, except in the following sentence on Anglo-Saxon England. Perhaps switch the order slightly? Sarastro1 (talk) 20:10, 4 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Took the easy way out and removed the "also" Ealdgyth - Talk 16:25, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

More comments: Down to end of High Middle Ages now. Sarastro1 (talk) 18:32, 6 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • "Nobles were stratified, with kings and the highest nobility controlling large numbers of commoners as well as other nobles": Noun plus -ing.
  • "Beneath that highest rank, other nobles controlled less land and fewer people, and below them were knights, who controlled lands but not other nobles. Those with least status in the nobility were knights who did not own land and had to serve other nobles": Some repetition here: could the sentences be merged?
    • I think I'll punt this to Malleus also. Ealdgyth - Talk 18:12, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      I've rewritten that a little, hopefully now fixed. Malleus Fatuorum 19:48, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In 1024, the ruling dynasty changed to the Salian dynasty, who famously clashed with the papacy under Emperor Henry IV (r. 1084–1105) over church appointments as part of the Investiture Controversy.": Why famously? Suggests POV.
    • This is one of those great bits that is remembered often from history class. This is where Henry IV got to stand in the snow begging the pope for forgiveness... it's famous. Ealdgyth - Talk 18:12, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • I am familiar with the story, but question how famous it would be to the general reader. Among historians, perhaps. But again, no big deal. Sarastro1 (talk) 19:47, 7 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "During the 12th and 13th centuries, there was a series of conflicts…": Was or were? Were sounds more comfortable to me. Sarastro1 (talk)

ARchived comments from Wehwalt[edit]

Lede
  • "within the Church" I think you should make an appropriate link here.
Later Roman Empire
  • "For much of the 4th century, Roman society had reached a new, stable form". This reads a bit oddly. "Had reached" implies a one-time event, but it's being used here for an enduring status quo. Perhaps substitute "was in" or similar?
  • I've changed this to "For much of the 4th century, Roman society stablized in a new form that differed..." does that work? Ealdgyth - Talk 15:03, 6 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "were able to sack the city of Rome" I would make this more direct, "sacked the city of Rome".
  • Gaul needs a link.
Early Middle Ages
  • "ncluding the popular assemblies that allowed free male tribal members more say in political matters" I'm not quite seeing the need for the word "more" here.
  • I've clarified this with some changes above... "including the popular assemblies that allowed free male tribal members more say in political matters than was common in the Roman state." which makes it clear why "more" is needed. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:03, 6 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Much of the intellectual culture of the new kingdoms was also based on Roman intellectual traditions" Can the second use of "intellectual" be deleted?
  • Changed per above to "Much of the scholarly and written culture of the new kingdoms was also based on Roman intellectual traditions." Ealdgyth - Talk 15:03, 6 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Further complications were" Since only one is listed, and its consequences, perhaps "Further complications included"
  • Fixed above. Now reads "A further complication..." Ealdgyth - Talk 15:03, 6 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • You are inconsistent in your capitalisation of "Christian church"
  • Fixed the one that needed fixing. One of the others refers to the actual church buildings (plural) and the other is in a quote, so I can't change it. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:03, 6 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • " public monuments and other public buildings" Perhaps delete public before monuments?
  • Now reads "while civic monuments and other public buildings" Ealdgyth - Talk 15:03, 6 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Early in "Trade and economy", the past tense seems to be abandoned for a couple of sentences, it strikes me as a bit jarring.
  • I'm going to leave this to Malleus as I believe this is the correct way to refer to things that still exist in the archaelogical record... Ealdgyth - Talk 15:42, 6 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
    I think there is a slight dissonance there, because of the mix of tenses in that sentence. I've removed the trailing "... and have been mostly replaced by local products" which I think resolves the issue and is in any case redundant given what follows. Malleus Fatuorum 15:56, 6 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "much of the political power had devolved to the local lords" no big deal, but I don't think "had" is necessary at this distance.
  • "The importance of infantry and light cavalry began to decline during the early Carolingian period, with a corresponding dominance of military events by the elite." Is it worth mentioning that (as I understand it) that it was expensive to equip and maintain oneself as heavy cavalry, thus making it impractical for the non-wealthy to compete in this area?
  • I thought about it but it seemed an unneeded detail on an article that is already rather large. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:42, 6 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
High Middle Ages
  • " or bringing new lands into production by offering incentives to the peasants who settled the new lands, also helped with the expansion of population" Perhaps "the new lands" (the last two words being repeats from earlier in the sentence) could be changed to "them" or "there", and rather than "helped with", have "contributed to"?
  • "Monks always remained a very small proportion of the population throughout the period, usually less than one percent of the total population." Suggest massage to eliminate one use of "population". And is one percent a proportion?
  • Now reads "usually less than one percent of the total populace." Since one percent is one part of hundred Ealdgyth - Talk 15:42, 6 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the increase in crop yields" Since you have (to my recollection) only discussed this implicitly, in terms of the improved agricultural techniques, perhaps "increases in crop yields" without the "the".
  • Now reads "enabled an increase in crop yields" Ealdgyth - Talk 15:42, 6 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "for several years after 1291" since that date is given earlier in the sentence, perhaps "for several years afterwards". Close call though.
    Fixed. Malleus Fatuorum 06:02, 5 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • " other than in the Holy Land" perhaps "elsewhere besides the Holy Land"
  • "and by 1100 Roman law was being taught at Bologna." Should perhaps the link be to the university, rather than the city?
  • I've piped the link - the exact foundation of the university is a bit nebulous and it's not clear that there was a true organized "university" before the charter in 1158. Safer to say "taught at"... Ealdgyth - Talk 15:42, 6 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "as elites began to worry that monks were not adhering to the rules binding them to a strictly religious life." Is what is being said is that they were exerting worldly influence that might diminish the influence of nobles, perhaps it could be said more directly.
  • no, the nobles were worried that the monks weren't adhering to their monastic rules, which would mean that the gifts given to the monks would not garner quite the spiritual benefits for their gifts. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:42, 6 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • " In 1209, a crusade was preached against the Cathars, the Albigensian Crusade, which in combination with the medieval Inquisition, finally eliminated them." As I recall, the elimination was done by killing many of them. Perhaps this could be spelled out.
  • Some were killed, yes, but most heretics that were dealt with by the actual inquisition didn't get killed, they had varying penances imposed. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:42, 6 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Late Middle Ages
  • In the discussion of education, can something be said about how much of the population received even this basic literacy? And, if known, differences by gender? I would think it would be more common to educate a woman in the nobility, as the woman might have to serve as chatelaine?--Wehwalt (talk) 06:09, 4 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'll try to find something, but I'm not sure there are good figures. Let me dig. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:42, 6 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Most folks don't make guesses for the whole of Europe, either restricting their data to smaller regions or not putting numbers on it. I've found one guess for 1500 that I've put into the article. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:23, 6 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Archived image comments[edit]

Image review

  • Captions that aren't complete sentences shouldn't end in periods
    • I got one, but it would be helpful, with this many illustrations, if the ones that are wrong could be listed? Ealdgyth - Talk 20:59, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:2008-05-17-SuttonHoo.jpg: should be obvious given the age, but as a 3D work this does need an explicit license for the object as well as the image; same with File:Venice_–_The_Tetrarchs_04.jpg, File:Theoderic_Quarter_Siliqua_80000847.jpg, File:Christ_Magdeburg_Cathedral_Met_41.100.157.jpg, File:Richard_of_Wallingford.jpg
    • I've got all of them but the Richard of Wallingford - which already HAD the PD tag (it's 2D, not 3D). If I've put the wrong tags on... can you point me to the freaking correct tag? I'm tired of trying to find things on Commons - they don't make it easy. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:59, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • Sorry, that's my fault, must've put that in the wrong place. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:21, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Frühmittelalterliches_Dorf.jpg has no licensing info
    • Are we looking at the same image page? I see it plain as day "I, the copyright holder of this work, hereby publish it under the following license: This file is licensed under the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike 3.0 Unported license." Ealdgyth - Talk 20:59, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • ...clearly not. Not sure what happened there, sorry. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:21, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Map_of_expansion_of_Caliphate.svg: source link is dead
    • And what should i do about it? (sighs). I'm sorry if I sound testy, but it seems like images are becoming so much of a pain in the arse I'm half tempted to just pull all of these you identified from the article. I'm not stupid about copyright, I make my living as a photographer (among other things) so I'm not a person who wants to rip other people off, but a lot of this is just plain silly paperwork to jump through hoops for the sake of jumping through hoops. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:59, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • Completely agree that we're jumping through hoops, but there's not much either of us can do about that, unfortunately...I've seen multiple obviously old and out-of-copyright files tagged for deletion because of missing or incomplete source info. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:21, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
        • Fixed. Website moved (probably in 2012), changed link to new entry page link for "maps". GermanJoe (talk) 09:10, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Growth_of_Frankish_Power,_481-814.jpg needs US PD tag, and the date given contradicts the pre-1923 licensing on the edited version (File:Growth_of_Frankish_Power,_481-814_Edit.jpeg)
  • File:Cleric-Knight-Workman.jpg: "adapted from" link is dead
    • What do I need to do to fix this and the next one? Ealdgyth - Talk 20:59, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • Ideally, find a new or archived version of the link, if possible. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:21, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Richard_of_Wallingford.jpg, File:Plague_victims_blessed_by_priest.jpg: source link is dead
    • Fixed both (given the detailed book info the links would be optional here anyway, but found archive and replacement). GermanJoe (talk) 09:40, 3 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:Europe_1360.jpg, File:07_Grégoire_XI_(couronné_par_Guy_de_Boulogne).jpg need US PD tags. Nikkimaria (talk)
    • Which tag exactly? Because silly me thought that the current tag on the image was enough, and I certainly won't be able to figure it out from the Commons pages. Ealdgyth - Talk 20:59, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      • Fixed both. It's most often either PD-1923 or PD-old-100, whatever fits the author and publication info. GermanJoe (talk) 22:22, 2 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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