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What do we do when...

...we have an accomplished athlete from the pre-internet era who meets a criterion at WP:NSPORT, but we have no access to sources that would have covered said athlete, thus making us unable to add SIGCOV? Say "oh well" and get rid of it? That's effectively what we've done a few times, e.g. Olympic medalist Karl Schwegler. I'm not sure that makes sense however; as then what would be the purpose of this whole notability page in the first place if meeting it has absolutely no meaning? BeanieFan11 (talk) 22:41, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

NSPORT was basically deprecated because of these exact situations. We're no longer willing to presume there's coverage because too often there was no coverage when we looked closely. A quick search of a German newspaper archive brought up nothing, if that helps? SportingFlyer T·C 23:07, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
@SportingFlyer, thank you for your reply. If NSPORT is basically deprecated, then it should have {{Superseded}} or similar at the top. I don't think the guidelines are deprecated because they're still actively used in deletion discussions, and there is no proven consensus to make such a change. --Habst (talk) 02:18, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
@Habst: I should have been clearer - the criteria at WP:NSPORT that the original poster refers to were deprecated. WP:NSPORT is still fine, it just suggests that significant coverage is likely to exist now while now requiring evidence of SIGCOV. SportingFlyer T·C 10:37, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
@SportingFlyer, thank you for clarifying. I still think that "are presumed notable" versus "significant coverage is likely to exist" is, frankly, a distinction without a difference. Both statements have policy implications about keeping the articles, which is a subjective process anyways so the word "likely" is redundant in nearly any notability policy. --Habst (talk) 11:16, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
There's actually a huge difference, even if the change feels minor. "Presumed notable" means you can create the article without significant coverage. "Likely to exist" means it's probable someone who has achieved a specific accomplishment will be notable but does not give anyone permission to create an article without some demonstration of SIGCOV. SportingFlyer T·C 14:00, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
@SportingFlyer, thanks for explaining the difference. I agree with your explanation of "presumed notable", but not your explanation of "likely to exist". Understanding that the word "likely" is redundant because all notability policies deal in generalities, establishing that "significant coverage exists" is functionally equivalent to a presumption of notability, because on Wikipedia notability is determined by presence of coverage whether or not that coverage is specifically linked in the article (for example, recently a deletion discussion was closed as keep due in part to a hall of fame plaque about the subject being mentioned as existing, even though the specific plaque was never photographed – the mere assumption of the plaque likely existing is evidence of notability). --Habst (talk) 14:21, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
@Habst: WP:NSPORT was specifically re-written to require the SIGCOV be linked in the article, though. The two work together now. SportingFlyer T·C 14:34, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
@SportingFlyer, thank you for providing that perspective. I think that the WP:SPORTCRIT bullet point #5 on this page you're referring to is contradictory to other Wikipedia guidelines such as WP:BASIC, which (for example) allows for combining sources while SPORTCRIT does not. Also, WP:BASIC requires sources to exist, but not necessarily to be referenced in the article – this page is a supplemental guideline to that, so BASIC would apply anyways. --Habst (talk) 14:58, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
@Habst: I do not see this as being inconsistent with WP:BASIC, since we could still theoretically have a sportsperson where BASIC gets tied together. And if we knew SIGCOV exists, but it's not in the article, that would still be kept at AfD I think. In any case it was a negotiated change in order to prevent disruption, and some topic areas can be a bit stricter with the rules - NCORP is probably the strictest for instance. SportingFlyer T·C 16:20, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
@SportingFlyer Thank you for your civil conversation, I think it has been helpful. If "SIGCOV being known to (likely) exist" means "article would be kept at AfD", then I think that it only takes one logical step to say, "if NSPORT says significant coverage exists, then the article is notable" so we end up at the distinction without a difference from the old guidelines. I don't think that NSPORTS2022 has really ended the "stalemate" on these guidelines as much as people think it did. --Habst (talk) 17:19, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
The key change was the removal of participation-based criteria, which precludes participants in a deletion discussion from just saying "per sport X's notability criteria" without further explanation, for cases that relied on the removed criteria. isaacl (talk) 17:47, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
@Isaacl, thank you. That's all fine, but the original question is about a person who won a silver medal at the Olympics representing Ruderclub Reuss Luzern in a 12-team final, well beyond just participation. So I don't think that the NSPORTS2022 decision really affects this case, as in relation to this case it only changed the wording from "presumed notable" to "significant coverage is likely to exist" which I think are effectively two ways of saying the same thing. --Habst (talk) 18:59, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
Yes, I was responding specifically to your general comment that "I don't think that NSPORTS2022 has really ended the 'stalemate' on these guidelines as much as people think it did." isaacl (talk) 19:31, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
It sounds like you would like to have an achievement-based standard for having an article, rather than a coverage-based standard? For better or worse, there hasn't been a consensus for this amongst the subset of editors who like to discuss these matters. Part of the reason for this is that many editors think that biographies should have some information about the subject's life as a whole, and absent significant coverage, it's hard to do this. (I've discussed your last question in previous discussions, so I won't go over it again here.) isaacl (talk) 23:16, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
  • The Karl Schweger outcome of "redirect" appears sound. Under WP:SPORTBASIC prong 5 requires at least one item of SIGCOV, which was not found despite diligent efforts. An exception has been made in rare cases under WP:BASIC where multiple independent sources may be combined to demonstrate notability and write a reasonably rounded biography. In Schweger's case, neither of these options was satisfied. Given these circumstances, there was not a single "keep" vote. Even so, a decision was made to "redirect" as a WP:ATD, thus preseving the history and text so that nothing is lost if better sourcing is located down the road. This strikes me like a reasonable outcome. Cbl62 (talk) 23:19, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
    • I wouldn't say those were "diligent efforts" - I've never recognized the 2,000 edit nominator who doesn't seem to be a sports editor, Geschichte just said we should redirect "at the very least" (no comment about searching), Let'srun appears to be just a revenge/hounding !vote (I can provide evidence if needed) and then there's Joelle (not sure the depth of her searches as she just said "no sigcov has been unearthed"). It does not appear that anyone looked in relevant (i.e. Swiss newspaper) sources; if such standards (no need to look at relevant sources for NSPORT passes) are more widely applied I am certain that a great many Olympic medalists (i.e. greatest athletes of all time) will be deleted. That's not something preferable, in my opinion. Then what is the point of these sub-criteria? BeanieFan11 (talk) 23:43, 25 January 2024 (UTC)
      Because, for one, winning an Olympic medal is not synonymous with "greatest athlete of all time." There are all manner of Olympic sports which scarcely move the needle, and there's vastly more coverage to bronze medalist marathoners, figure skaters or 100 meter sprinters than for gold medalist rhythmic gymnasts or 10 meter pistol shooters.

      For a second, c'mon, BeanieFan11; this isn't your first rodeo. You have to know that there are vastly more articles thrown up with poor or no sourcing than AfDs with little or no attempt to find that sourcing. In any event it's a longstanding rule of thumb that the onus on finding such sourcing rests with the editor(s) seeking to retain material. My own strong belief that it is incumbent on every article creator to put that sourcing in as a precondition of posting the article in the first place. If they can't be assed to do that, I'm not troubled by those articles falling into the dustbin. Ravenswing 03:34, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

      I see more expansive criteria at AFD arguments. Recent "keep" arguments have included merely merely being selected to compete in a future Olympics, or being the first person from their country to win a bronze medal in their sport in a junior regional competition. North8000 (talk) 18:56, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
      I checked three of the newspaper archives from WikiLibrary, as I do for a lot of AfDs. If we can't find the one IRS SIGCOV source then I don't see how we can presume GNG coverage exists from meeting a criterion that was never tested for predictive capacity in the first place. JoelleJay (talk) 03:37, 26 January 2024 (UTC)
...we have no access to sources that would have covered said athlete... It's also conceivable that sources just don't exist. The community could WP:IAR, saying that most Olympic medalists are notable, and allow WP:PERMASTUBs for a few of them in order to have a complete collection. Of course, you'd need to get community consensus that such an exemption improves Wikipedia.—Bagumba (talk) 08:18, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Of course this whole area is fuzzy, but for stuff that is before the internet explosion, and before electronic "sports coverage as entertainment rather than just coverage", the ratio of actual notability to coverage tends to be higher, I tend to enter that into the equation during NPP reviews. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 00:22, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

WP:COMMONSENSE applies. Whilst I know participation-based 'automatic' notability has been abolished, common sense says that somebody who made 1 professional sport appearance in 1905 is likely to have less coverage than somebody who had 5 appearances, or 10 etc. GiantSnowman 19:37, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Every since these guidelines were gutted, they are completely useless.. Probably better to just delete it outright at this point since it provides no guidance whatsoever anymore. Spanneraol (talk) 19:39, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes, they might have served a purpose in the early Wikipedia years, but I haven't noticed an onslaught of obvious AfD nom errors, at least in the Big 3 U.S. sports. I don't know if its had an impact on any non-domain expert new page patrollers. The amount of discussion this page still generates might outweigh any utility value this guideline might still actually provide. —Bagumba (talk) 01:43, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

Apparently changing "presumed notability" to "presumed coverage" in our sport-specific guidance is still, somehow, controversial?

SINCE AN EDITOR INSISTS ...
... that there can be no consensus unless someone has formally closed the discussion (say what? Since when?), I see that consensus is solidly in favor of the change in wording as set forth by JoelleJay. Hopefully this will put the incipient edit warring to rest. Ravenswing 20:16, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


Diff. Do we really need to go over this every single time we identify a piece of overlooked legacy wording? The change (bolded) is in this passage:

Significant coverage is likely to exist for athletes from any sport if they have won a medal at the modern Olympic Games, including the Summer Olympics (since 1896) or the Winter Olympics (since 1924), e.g., Ian Thorpe, or have won a medal at the Paralympic Games, e.g. Laurentia Tan. However, winning a medal in a competition with fewer than four competitors or teams (i.e., when all participants receive a medal) is not an indicator of presumed notability, and other exceptions may be listed at sport specific guidelines.

The current language implies either that medaling in a competition with more than three participants is an indicator of presumed notability, or that medaling when there are ≤3 competitors affords the same presumptions as when there are 4+ (because the latter also is not an indicator of presumed notability). The original intent of this wording was to distinguish between these two groups re: notability guidance, so to retain that distinction the language should reflect our updated presumptions.

This really should not be controversial. JoelleJay (talk) 02:51, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Can you please post an additional diff showing why you think this was an oversight? Because presumed notability appears several times around that passage, but presumed coverage does not exist in the article and the exact phrase has only been used 49 times on Wikipedia according to a quick search. SportingFlyer T·C 20:58, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
...did you miss that whole RfC and the followups? Here is when the guideline stabilized with all instances of "presumed notable" supposed to be replaced with "significant coverage is likely to exist". The term doesn't have to be "presumed coverage", the point is to remove the "presumed notable" language. JoelleJay (talk) 01:37, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
It's been over ten months since that closed. I don't mind the edit, but the problem with that particular sentence is that changing it from presumed notable to presumed coverage makes the entire thing worse/less clear. At least the current edit makes clear someone who got an Olympics participation trophy isn't entitled to an article. I think options are removing entirely or changing it to something like ...Laurentia Tan, unless the athlete competed in an event with fewer than four competitors or teams (i.e., when all participants received a medal.) SportingFlyer T·C 17:37, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
I think your suggested wording is great. I'll implement it. JoelleJay (talk) 19:48, 1 February 2024 (UTC)
Does anyone have an objection to my implementing this? @Cbl62? I tried to do so earlier but was reverted again by @Cassiopeia despite this discussion having a pretty uniform consensus against retaining "presumed notable" and for "likely to have...". JoelleJay (talk) 01:19, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
T-N-T! T-N-T! T-N-T! ;) On a more serious note, I have no objection to the change. BeanieFan11 (talk) 01:55, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
What specifically is the proposed change? Which section/paragraph and which specific substitution? Such is not stated anywhere in this thread.North8000 (talk) 04:02, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
The section in question is the green text in my first post, the proposed change is the green text in SF's comment. It's an extremely minor change that simply makes the guidance consistent with everywhere else. JoelleJay (talk) 05:01, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
OK, just leave it as "you should be able to figure it out" instead of distilling it into a clear proposed change. So, with that narrowing, you are asking about 2 people for feedback. :-) North8000 (talk) 05:09, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Significant coverage is likely to exist for athletes from any sport if they have won a medal at the modern Olympic Games, including the Summer Olympics (since 1896) or the Winter Olympics (since 1924), e.g., Ian Thorpe, or have won a medal at the Paralympic Games, e.g. Laurentia Tan. However, winning a medal in a competition with fewer than four competitors or teams (i.e., when all participants receive a medal) is not an indicator of presumed notability, and other exceptions may be listed at sport specific guidelines.

changed to

Significant coverage is likely to exist for athletes from any sport if they have won a medal at the modern Olympic Games, including the Summer Olympics (since 1896) or the Winter Olympics (since 1924), e.g., Ian Thorpe, or have won a medal at the Paralympic Games, e.g. Laurentia Tan, unless the athlete competed in an event with fewer than four competitors or teams (i.e., when all participants received a medal.) Other exceptions may be listed at sport-specific guidelines.

JoelleJay (talk) 05:16, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
Cool. North8000 (talk) 14:01, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
Fine with me, and I support that change. North8000 (talk) 14:05, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
Fine with me, too. Cbl62 (talk) 14:10, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
Since I saw it's been reverted already, I also support this change. SportingFlyer T·C 09:50, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
I support the change. It reads better. - Enos733 (talk) 16:58, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

In 2022 RfA, we've used "likely to have received significant coverage" as the operative language. I support that. The phrase "presumed coverage" strikes me as something that can and would be misconstrued. At Afd, we generally don't allow folks to rely on a "presumption" that SIGCOV exists. To the contrary, we generally require that "actual" SIGCOV be presented. Cbl62 (talk) 00:51, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

I think that regarding short term effect those terms are all the same.....they mean "OK'd by the SNG". In the bigger vaguer picture, "significant coverage is likely to exist" might be better because it follows the pattern of nearly all SNG wording by giving deference to the GNG coverage criteria and the need to establish it if questioned. Whereas "presumed notable" can be read as granting it irrespective of GNG coverage and "Presumed coverage" can be read that suitable coverage is presumed to exist rather than needing to be established if questioned. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 20:56, 1 February 2024 (UTC)

  • Please note that for a subject to be notable (GNG), the subject needs to have Significant coverage by independent, reliable sources where by the subject is talked about in lenght and in depth and not passing mentioned. If a SNG indicate certain criteria to be notable in Wikiedia, let's a say XX sport needs to be world top ten ranking by certain source or a medal holder for certain sport, then in regardless how significant coverage a subject is, if the coverage is all about routine tournaments or the results that would considered routine report and can NOT be used to contribute to meet GNG unless the sources talk about somethings else of the subject. So in short, presume significant coverage does not means presume notable - it is a big different here. In Wikipedia, we always set GNG criteria as the first and most important one. Cassiopeia talk 06:32, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
    ...why did you revert this extremely minor change again, asking for a link to the talk page discussion that I pinged you to yesterday? JoelleJay (talk) 22:36, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
    I don't get it at this point. BeanieFan11 (talk) 23:42, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
  • User:JoelleJay Again, pls provide the links where consensus has been achieved and close by other editor which does not vote the changes as per norm. I have no objection if the changes is consensus and an editor who is not involved with the vote has closed the discussion with the conclusion changes is supported as this is not only the Wikipedia norm for any changes in Wikipedia guidelines and especially about notability/specific notability guidelines, any changes, regardless how minor, is important as per interpretation/definition for it should not take it lightly at all. Pls understand, I come in good will and try to serve Wikipedia as per it agendas, guidelines, and norms. Get someone who is not involved and closed the discussion. Whatever, the closing outcome, I will be OK with it. Stay safe — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cassiopeia (talk • contribs)
Unlike the (unintentional) case with my initial BOLD edits, this current edit is not a substantive change to the guideline, and especially because we also have unanimous support for the proposed wording, it does not need formal closure. Changes may be made if there are no objections or if the discussion shows there is consensus for the change. Minor edits to improve formatting, grammar, and clarity may be made at any time. JoelleJay (talk) 00:28, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
The norm is to get an editor, dont need to be an admin, to close the discussion and state the result. If there is unanimous decision, then it is easy to close the discussion (usually after 7 days the discussion has raised). It is better to be slow and do the what it takes then just change in such manner especially about notablity which is one of the most important topic in Wikipedia and it is not hard to find an interested editor to do the closing (for I dont see "each" editor state "support" of the wording change for at least I am the one of the editors state a closing should be done" since I did not vote support so it is not an unanimous support for this topic. Stay safe and best. Cassiopeia talk 01:18, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
That is the norm for substantive changes; clarifying the wording of a guideline in a way that 100% reflects pre-existing consensus (and now also represents unanimous consensus among editors who have actually opined on the proposed wording) falls under Minor edits to improve formatting, grammar, and clarity may be made at any time. Meanwhile, your continued reverts do fall afoul of policy Consequently, you should not remove any change solely on the grounds that there was no formal discussion indicating consensus for the change before it was made. Instead, you should give a substantive reason for challenging it either in your edit summary or on the talk page. Frankly, you should not be policing this area if you do not have the language proficiency to understand the changes being made. JoelleJay (talk) 04:25, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
you do not have the language proficiency to understand the changes being made A gentle and friendly minnow slap -- keep it on substance rather than the editor's personal attributes. Cbl62 (talk) 18:18, 10 February 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Guidelines for wrestlers/judoka/grapplers

I see them for boxing, kickboxing, and MMA, but not for wrestlers, judoka, and other grappling sports (besides sumo). Seems like a big oversight considering wrestling and judo are Olympic sports. Am I missing something or have these just not been structured yet? Spagooder (talk) 23:34, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

IAAF is now World Athletics

Regarding the Athletics/track & field and long-distance running section, the IAAF has renamed itself World Athletics. (The IAAF page has also been renamed.) Zatsugaku (talk) 14:07, 8 April 2024 (UTC)

Bobsleigh and skeleton

Recently, I've been looking through articles of winter sport atheletes and doing a quick copy-edit on them, especially bobsleigh and skeleton. However, I noticed every one-time Winter Olympics participant has been documented even if they're not notable. A lot of them are also poorly-sourced or poorly-written stubs. I was wondering if there was clearer and easier criteria for these types of atheletes; otherwise, we may assume their articles pass WP:SPORTBASIC? Specifically, even for two or four-person bobsleigh, do they need to be in top ten of every bobsleigh tournament according to IBSF to be considered notable? CuteDolphin712 (talk) 10:28, 2 May 2024 (UTC)

What's happened to NFOOTBALL?

I'm looking for guidance on notability criteria for professional (association) footballers, but WP:NFOOTY seems to have disappeared from this article. I've found some old discussions about it and proposals for change but can't see what the current guidance is? Can anyone help? Orange sticker (talk) 08:47, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Can you find multiple sources of significant coverage about the subject? Then he is likely notable. If he doesn't, he likely is not Alvaldi (talk) 13:01, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
No. I was just hoping there was clearer and easier criteria as in other sports, as this player did play at international level and in a World Cup (see this Article for Deletion). Thanks! Orange sticker (talk) 13:11, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
Sorry but no. I would try to Google his native name in South Korean sources (i.e. " 박철진 site:.kr") but if that doesn't turn anything significant up then he's all out of luck. Alvaldi (talk) 17:27, 26 April 2024 (UTC)
At the end of the section it now redirects to, it reads:

Sports which are not listed on this page should defer to the § Basic criteria for guidance. This includes both those which were never listed, and those which were but have since been removed, most recently following an RfC from January–March 2022.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Bagumba (talk • contribs)
There was consensus in a 2022 RfC to remove solely participation-based criteria. See Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Sports notability#202203070648_Wugapodes_2. There was then consensus while implementing the RfC to remove NFOOTY because it was solely participation-based, and discussion regarding an alternative was tabled. See Wikipedia talk:Notability (sports)/Archive 49#Association football (soccer). voorts (talk/contributions) 03:23, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Bridge

I propose the following for inclusion to the main article.

I will ask other Bridge editors to comment and add.


Bridge

Shortcuts

(Note: I am not sure how to create Shortcuts, nor how to check with conflicts with other shortcuts on other topics. The shortcut WP:BRIDGE refers to physical bridges)

Significant coverage is likely to exist for Bridge players if they
  1. Have won a medal at an international event at the senior, open, womens, mixed, youth or junior level. International events include the European Championship, World Championships and North American Bridge Championships (NABCs).
  2. Have placed first or second in a major North American Bridge Championships. Major events are Vanderbilt, Spingold, Soloway or Reisinger.
  3. Have won an open, mixed, senior or women's North American Bridge Championships.
  4. Have been elected to the Hall of Fame in their National Bridge Organization (NBO)


Discussion information: European and World events award medals. NABCs do not.

Other National Bridge Organizations (NBOs) may have appropriate qualifications. For example someone in the Hall of Fame for a NBO.

FAQ numbering

BI noticed here that the FAQ numbering skips 5. I'm thinking we should probably renumber the questions, but I wanted to check and make sure 5 wasn't being excluded deliberately before BOLDly making the change myself. If we're keeping the same numbering for historical reasons, we ought to make a note to that effect rather than just not having a Q5 at all. Hamtechperson 00:28, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing it up. I forgot to renumber the questions when I deleted one that was no longer relevant. I've renumbered them now. isaacl (talk) 00:48, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

Motorcycle Speedway

Hi all, not sure if I am in the right place but would like to nominate some standards of notability for motorcyle speedway, maybe in the Wikipedia:Notability (sports)#Motorsports section, which I cannot seem to find existing at present. The sport is worldwide and extremely popular, in Poland for example it is the national sport (ahead of association football) and was once the most watched sport in the United Kingdom behind football. A simple Google search shows how popular the sport is. The two main competitions suggested for notability are the Speedway Grand Prix (previously called the individual world championship) and the Speedway World Cup/Speedway of Nations (the team world championship). Any help about how I go about this would be appreciated, many thanks Pyeongchang (talk) 11:18, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

  • It's essential that you understand that special notability guidelines do not confer notability, they are guidelines for editors to understand when a subject will likely meet notability. While a speedway criteria could be implemented, and would require a discussion between editors familiar with the area to decide on criteria, based on the recent events at AfD I am extremely doubtful that the criteria you nominate would be fit for purpose. It appears that even at the pinnacle of the sport, many riders receive very little coverage which could be used to pass the GNG. Although they may be important to fans of speedway, that does not necessarily mean they are of encyclopaedic significance. 5225C (talk • contributions) 11:48, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
    • Yes I understand that special notability guidelines do not confer notability but is this the right area to nominate to start a discussion? Looking at the list of sports in the Wikipedia:Notability (sports) there are many that are clearly below the level of motorcycle speedway. Rodeo for example is pretty much restricted to North America and yet has countless guidelines. Surely motorcycle speedway which is pretty much worldwide merits at least one guideline!. At least if I can nominate then other editors can give an opinion on the subject. Please advise, many thanks Pyeongchang (talk) 12:04, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
  • One sidebar thought, wp:NGeo can also affect wp:notability decisions on facilities like this. North8000 (talk) 12:47, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
  • Unfortunately, any attempt to add anything here is just going to be a waste of time. The editors who dislike sport will never allow any additions to this criteria. See e.g. proposals with 100% GNG compliance being shot down. BeanieFan11 (talk) 15:52, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
    We should just mark this page as historical and get it over with. ~WikiOriginal-9~ (talk) 16:15, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
I'm an active NPP'er. I was a strong advocate of getting rid of the "did it for a living for 1 day" criteria for athletes because IMO it set the bar too low. But overall I would WELCOME expansion of the special notability guideline to provide more clarity on sports-related articles. North8000 (talk) 17:05, 1 August 2024 (UTC)
I put together what could be a draft of a replacement guideline and I welcome feedback. - Enos733 (talk) 01:06, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
What an effort....that's quite a bit of work! It would be a few days before I have the wiki-time to review. North8000 (talk) 14:39, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
FWIW, I still think the same of the draft as I did in archive 56: that won't work. An American football player must be in the Pro Football Hall of Fame (i.e. one of the greatest 300 figures ever, when there's probably 50,000 notable figures) to be considered as "likely" to have significant coverage? That is only going to result in nominations for deletion like "isn't in the Pro Football Hall of Fame, not notable" or "only was a starter in the NFL for six full seasons, not notable" – which are plainly ridiculous. The players in the Big Four leagues having presumed notability for playing a game is the only thing that made sense (especially post-1930, that criteria really worked); and although I know the anti-sports editors will never let this page return to sense like that, restricting it to only the greatest ever would only encourage silly time-wasting deletion nominations. Not to mention the biggest issue with NSPORT that isn't changed: the value of meeting the criteria suddenly becomes wholly worthless and irrelevant solely by one typing the two words "fails GNG" – no matter what the circumstances are. BeanieFan11 (talk) 17:49, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
I understand your concerns, but the community discussion that nearly led to the deletion of NSPORTS went the other direction - namely that participation is not sufficient for a stand-alone article. My goal is similar to yours - a desire for more clarity than this existing text and also to give guidance on how to evaluate sources based on the circumstances of the subject (prep athletes have the highest bar to clear, second-tier professionals a higher bar to clear, and professionals in a top-tier league the lowest bar to clear). Ultimately I see the sport specific text as useful outcomes for sports people, rather than a pass/fail bar. But at the same time, I also do not share your fear that an editor would attempt to nominate an NFL player post 1930 or an Olympic medalist. - Enos733 (talk) 22:12, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
We have an Olympic medalist likely to be deleted at an AFD right now – and several others who've already been deleted. My main issue with the current NSPORTS which seems to stay the same with the draft is this: every single person meeting it can have their accomplishments / satisfaction of the criteria made wholly irrelevant and useless solely by someone typing the two words "fails GNG" with no real effort to find sources. BeanieFan11 (talk) 22:31, 2 August 2024 (UTC)
I am not sure that is an expectation that can be made. I don't think we can expect that an editor won't bring any article to AFD and claim there are not sources or who will not do an adequate before search. I do agree with you that very few athletes that play in a top-tier league would fail GNG. That said, I can't think of a standard that is not participation-based that would meet the community's guidance. - Enos733 (talk) 04:47, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
Eh, after twenty years' worth of sports articles at AfD passing solely by someone typing the two words "meets NSPORTS," with no real effort to find sources, I'm unmoved by the inclusionists' dismay. 2022 never would've happened without the unreasonableness of the one-game-equals-notability clergy, spearheaded by the likes of the cricket and footy projects, and if they now feel hard done by, they need only look into mirrors for the culprits. Ravenswing 13:31, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
For reference, a comparison with Wikipedia:Notability (sports). isaacl (talk) 13:04, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

I have an unusual view of the sports SNG. Most view it (being a way to bypass GNG) only as a way to make the criteria more lenient. But in the fuzzy world of GNG on sports, it could cut both ways. Another gorilla in the living room on sports is that "coverage" is usually itself a form of entertainment rather than than "just getting it/them covered" and so can be less indicative. The current defacto "GNG only" criteria can result is somewhat arbitrary decisions in both directions. On some where included coverage is very weak, certain advocates just say "of course coverage exists, it just hasn't been found yet" (including in some presumed search of non-english sources, and no addressing on whether it is GNG coverage ) In the other direction, an extremely thorough / strict reading of GNG is applied, which is stricter than the norm. IMO more clarity and guidance along the "middle ground" in this SNG would be helpful. Not only would it affect the SNG "route in" but it would also influence edge case GNG decisions. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 13:06, 4 August 2024 (UTC)

I disagree that most view the sports-specific guidelines on having an article as a way to bypass the general notability guideline. Many discussions have found a consensus that they are used to help predict if the general notability guideline is likely to be satisfied. I agree that there is a promotional dimension to a lot of sports journalism, and so this has to be considered when evaluating the suitability of a source in demonstrating that the general notability guideline has been met. isaacl (talk) 13:18, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
there is a promotional dimension to a lot of sports journalism, and so this has to be considered when evaluating the suitability of a source We already have WP:INDY that precludes use of sources written by or affiliated with the athlete or the team. We also exclude fan blogs and such that do not qualify as WP:RELIABLE. Those are reasonable safeguards. However, we do not and should not exclude sports journalism in reliable, independent sources on grounds that sports journalism has a "promotional dimension". Cbl62 (talk) 13:34, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
While I agree that sports journalism does have a promotional dimension, the same can be said elsewhere. Does not arts journalism -- book reviews, movie reviews -- have not only a promotional dimension, but that's even more of a primary focus of the coverage? Ravenswing 19:38, 4 August 2024 (UTC)
Yes, promotional journalism is not only limited to sports (restaurant reviews and travel journalism being other prominent examples). This does not mean that all articles in this genre are promotional. Nonetheless, it's a consideration that must be evaluated for each specific citation when determining its suitability for demonstrating that the standards for having an article have been met. isaacl (talk) 04:31, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
Not sure I'd use the word "promotional". I'd say that to some extent it's writing to entertain in addition to writing to inform, and more so than in most other fields. North8000 (talk) 19:28, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
Newspapers often cover local sports teams and restaurants in a promotional manner (though not exclusively) because that's what its readers want to read. The New York Times travel section has many (though not all) articles that have a very promotional tone. isaacl (talk) 04:35, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
I agree. I think that I again failed to adequately communicate my point. Since it's sort of a sidebar item, I think I'll just leave it at that. North8000 (talk) 19:00, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
@Isaacl: I didn't mean that sentence the way that it sounded. My "bypass" statement was just about the flowchart/structural aspect, and about SNG's in general. And while I'm a bit skeptical about the "predictor of GNG" capability, I accept such wording (which is universal in SNG's) and that it is a good thing in the big picture of wP:Notability. North8000 (talk) 21:51, 5 August 2024 (UTC)
To restate the point which I intended to make, despite the common "flowchart" view that expanding a SNG makes entry more lenient, I am of the view that expanding the sports SNG would provide more guidance which would tend to work in BOTH directions. North8000 (talk) 14:47, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
I agree with this assessment of how SNGs like this play out. Without the SNG, borderline cases come down to a subjective evaluation of whether the GNG criteria are met. With clear criteria, borderline cases that don't meet the SNG will be more likely to get declined/deleted than they otherwise would be, while other articles with weaker citation work but a clear claim to the SNG will be approved. signed, Rosguill talk 15:03, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
Exactly. And it also provides more guidance to us NPP'ers on those cases. North8000 (talk) 15:10, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
And this is why I feel it is desirable to have a full revision of the guideline - to clarify existing consensus around the need to prove reliable sourcing and also give guidance for editors about which athletes are likely to be notable. - Enos733 (talk) 16:18, 6 August 2024 (UTC)
How would an article with weaker citation work have a clear claim to the SNG? The SNG requires all articles actively cite an IRS source of SIGCOV and ultimately requires GNG be met. JoelleJay (talk) 21:18, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
NSPORT has always been quite clear that GNG is ultimately necessary for notability, and after the RfC the understanding that NSPORT subcriteria should predict GNG is essentially universal. Certainly out of the hundreds of post-2022 AfDs I've been in there is broad recognition that GNG is needed and that NSPORT itself does not confer notability directly. JoelleJay (talk) 21:16, 7 August 2024 (UTC)
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