Talk:Anti-Russian violence in Chechnya (1991–1994)

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Okay. This is problematic.[edit]

@Willbb234: This article needs sourcing and it needs it bad. You don't want to ascribe crimes against humanity to a nation without intense sourcing. I also feel strongly about the importance of finding some neutral editors with established active accounts dating back before let's say ~2015 to establish that this is the basis of something encyclopedic. To be crystal clear I'm not implying this isn't a truthful article, I'm implying it's a fricken hot potato of a subject right now. Could you get an RfC going?Jasphetamine (talk) 18:30, 24 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Jasphetamine: I don't know if you knew, but I didn't write this article. What would the RfC be on? Willbb234Talk (please {{ping}} me in replies) 18:57, 24 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah @Willbb234: didn't assume you wrote it just assumed since you filed the GOCE request you had some vested interest in it. Anyway what I'm going to do is pester someone who has all the answers and hopefully a few spare minutes.

@Miniapolis: Hey -- terribly sorry to bother you, but I want to be extra sure GOCE is meant to fix... what I would describe as a barely sourced machine translated NPOV-violation about atrocities committed in the former Soviet bloc. If not, do I just blanket this thing in templates about its flaws? It's such dicey subject matter. Jasphetamine (talk) 19:10, 24 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Jasphetamine: cheers, good to see we're on the same page now. I came across the article while WP:NPPing so have no interest in the subject itself. Oh, and copyediting isn't about fixing lack of citations, so it's best to just tag/remove the content, which is what I normally do. Thanks for the time, Willbb234Talk (please {{ping}} me in replies) 19:22, 24 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
The person who wrote this who you are looking for is User:Mark Ekimov. Willbb234Talk (please {{ping}} me in replies) 19:24, 24 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Yea, the issue isn't whether I should personally fix citations, but rather that I am able to and would be fine with making a poorly cited article style compliant if it was about maybe some obscure woodworking technique or something, but this isn't that. Know what I mean? Thanks for the reference to the author, I'll follow that up. Jasphetamine (talk) 20:05, 24 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
  • Chiming in to second Jasphetamine's concerns. There's a lot of bad OR, indirect contradiction of other articles on related subjects that seem better written. A Google Scholar search for "ethnic cleansing in Chechnya" only returns results about Soviet policies during the Stalin years, in direct contradiction of this article's current assertion that incidents during the Soviet years were merely "deportation" not ethnic cleansing (never mind that Ethnic cleansing lists deportation as a possible method in its lead). signed, Rosguill talk 22:08, 25 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
    I've done a bit more research and have at least found evidence in a reliable source that ethnic cleansing of Russian civilians did occur in the 1990s in Chechnya ([1]). That doesn't absolve this article of all of its issues, but I'm leaning against WP:TNT given that this does seem to be a real historical event. signed, Rosguill talk 23:01, 25 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I would back taking to AfD on the grounds of TNT. Willbb234Talk (please {{ping}} me in replies) 23:17, 25 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
I've made some progress on the article and honestly think it's salvageable. At this point, I've come across enough evidence in RS that ethnic cleansing against Russians did occur in Chechnya following the collapse of the USSR. I think that if we keep removing undue quotes and OR, and add some information about Russian actions in the Chechen Wars (as well as a section on Soviet actions in the 1940s, and anti-Soviet actions by Chechen nationalists in the 40s and 80s), the article will be halfway decent. signed, Rosguill talk 00:44, 26 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, knowing that would you prefer me throwing cute needed and clarify tags on suspect info while working on the style, or kill off the sentence and let you find it in the diffs? If I don’t hear back I’ll assume the former as it’s less destructive. Jasphetamine (talk) 02:21, 26 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]
Jasphetamine, I think this depends on the claim. That having been said, my experience going through the first half of the article was that rather than strictly missing citations, the article is largely just leaning improperly on primary sources. So if you see something that's cited to an eye witness without clear justification from a secondary source, feel free to delete. signed, Rosguill talk 06:04, 26 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

(←) Well, I wish someone had commented on the GOCE's talk pages about the c/e request. We've declined the request for now; please feel free to relist it once it's rewritten, properly cited, stable and neutral. See the discussion at REQ Talk (current version) as of my timestamp. Cheers, Baffle☿gab 20:18, 3 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Former Soviet- republics"[edit]

Should this become "Post Soviet nation" "post Soviet state" or something more specific? Not all regions of the USSR became republics in a strict sense of the world. Jasphetamine (talk) 02:49, 26 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure which parts of the article you're referring to exactly, but in my experience, the phrase "former Soviet republic" generally refers to regions that were formerly republics in the Soviet Union (e.g. Lithuanian Soviet Socialist Republic, Armenian Soviet Socialist Republic, etc.). To my knowledge, many minority ethnic regions of Russia are still organized this way (Chechnya's formal name, for instance, is the Chechen Republic, Чеченская Республика). signed, Rosguill talk 06:07, 26 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Work[edit]

Jasphetamine, Rosguill is this complete? The tag is still up, not sure if you were planning on continuing? Willbb234Talk (please {{ping}} me in replies) 16:39, 30 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Willbb234, the issues with the article remain. I don't know how much I'll be able to commit to making further improvements in the coming days. If Jasphetamine is not going to actively contribute this week, then I think that the "under construction" notice can be taken down. signed, Rosguill talk 17:16, 30 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Renaming article[edit]

The whole article cannot be accepted in the version it is today. It is bellow Wikipedia's standards. I suggest renaming it to either "Anti-Russian sentiment in Chechnya 1991-1994" or "De-Russificiation of Chechnya 1991-1994".
Just take the sources: we mostly have only Russian-government owned websites like RIA, Rossiyskaya Gazeta and Zvezda.ru, or Ozon.ru, an online retail company. Insufficient. What are some reliable (preferably English) sources that confirm the term ethnic cleansing? The whole article just seems to have taken over all the propaganda from the Russian Wikipedia article without checking or reviewing these claims and subjecting them to scrutiny. Unless the article is rewritten into a decent shape, it should be drastically altered.--3E1I5S8B9RF7 (talk) 15:38, 29 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]

3E1I5S8B9RF7 yes it should be and I agree. As you can see above, attempts have been made to change this article, but I think a more forceful approach is needed. Regards, Willbb234Talk (please {{ping}} me in replies) 16:21, 29 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I would advocate for Anti-Russian violence in Chechnya (1991–1994) as a new title. Merely describing it as sentiment ignores that we do have RS (e.g. [2]) that confirm that violence occurred. I also generally dislike terms like De-[ethnic group]-ification because when used in academic literature such terms usually have more nuance than just "violence and/or persecution directed toward that demographic", so unless we specifically have sources calling it "De-Russification" I would stay away from that term. signed, Rosguill talk 19:10, 29 February 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I would agree renaming it to "Anti-Russian violence in Chechnya (1991–1994)".--3E1I5S8B9RF7 (talk) 10:13, 1 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Status of work on this thing?[edit]

Reads better and I think the new page title is excellent but there's still just an overwhelming lack of citations. Would this subject be better served by finding an appropriate subject to merge it with? That'd allow for the subject matter to remain on Wikipedia but with a greatly reduced word count. Jasphetamine (talk) 23:42, 12 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A proposition for a merger with the Russophobia article, or deleting this one and merging it's NPOV contents with other relevant articles[edit]

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
The result of this discussion was unanimous agreement to merge Anti-Russian violence in Chechnya (1991–1994) into Anti-Russian sentiment. Sextus Caedicius (talk) 02:07, 11 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I'm seeing similar problems that other Wikipedians have already pointed out( @Willbb234: @Jasphetamine: ). I'm proposing this article for a merger with the Russophobia article, or deleting this one and integrating what it contains of NPOV content into the Russophobia article. The contents of this article are already covered in at least two other separate articles, in the Minorities section of the Chechen republic of Ichkeria article, and under the North Caucasus section of the Russophobia article. This article does also not meet the Wikipedia criteria for NPOV, it relies almost exclusively on Russian state connected media outlets(RIA novosti, Izvestiya, Itar-tass etc.) Alfred Koch in the 2000s was at the forefront of Gazprom media's takeover of NTV(one of Russia's independently controlled media outlets at the time), he's also quoted in the article as an authority on the "ethnic cleansing of Russians from Chechnya". The emigration/cleansing of Serbs from Kosovo does not have it's own article yet it is covered in the demographics section of the Kosovo article, I am proposing a similar solution in this case. What are your thoughts fellow Wikipedians. Sextus Caedicius (talk) 15:56, 3 June 2020 (UTC)Sextus Caedicius[reply]

I can get behind this, if nothing see it’ll get more eyes on it that might already be wrangling these kinds of articles. I’m super super uncomfortable just leaving it as a stand-alone. Even if this was perfectly sourced and cited and everything, without a larger Russophobia context it is just too... nuanced. Complicated sensitive subject matter should not sit alone. Jasphetamine (talk) 05:06, 4 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]


I totally agree. As you mentioned, this topic has already been covered twice in other articles. Therefore I see no reason as to having a stand-alone article for this. Merging it with the bigger Russophobia article might be the best move as this will attract more readers. Ola Tønningsberg (talk) 21:27, 4 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Should we get an informal poll going?Jasphetamine (talk) 21:43, 4 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Merge strongly support Jasphetamine (talk) 21:43, 4 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I strongly support mergingSextus Caedicius (talk) 13:30, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with the mentioned reasons, and I think this article should be merged with the russophobia article Goddard2000 (talk) 16:43, 5 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I believe we should merge Ola Tønningsberg (talk) 00:52, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with the sentiment of the previous posters, the article should be merged. Reiner Gavriel (talk) 23:49, 7 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Questionable article[edit]

This whole article is very questionable with questionable sources (Russian media?). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Usar-Aeli (talk • contribs) 17:27, 3 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Revisiting AfD[edit]

I see that the outcome of the AfD was merger, however de facto it led to a deletion: compare the last version of this article [3] to Anti-Russian_sentiment#Within_Russia.

I'm conscious of the argument that that this article mostly relied on Russian-language sources, however we should not just dismiss them altogether. Some of the media that are unreliable now were quite good in the 90s and early aughts. Freedom House classified Russia as "partly free" back then [4] Some others are still okay (Kommersant, Echo Moskvy).

In any case I believe that it should be possible to find less questionable sources. I'll try to do it and hopefully will raise it again. Pinging Sextus Caedicius as the closer. Alaexis¿question? 07:07, 17 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to restore the page after doing pretty drastic modifications. I've used two new sources: Chechnya: From Nationalism to Jihad by James Hughes and Russia Confronts Chechnya: Roots of a Separatist Conflict by John Dunlop to reference the key facts. I've also removed a lot of content that was poorly sourced or wasn't due (things like initiatives which went nowhere and opinions of more or less well-known journalists and politicians). Alaexis¿question? 10:45, 20 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Onel5969, I've explained here why I restored this page and which modifications I made to take into account the issues raised at the AfD. Could you explain which problems you see now? Alaexis¿question? 12:37, 20 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
North8000, I've explained here why I restored this page and which modifications I made to take into account the issues raised at the AfD. Could you explain which problems you see now? Alaexis¿question? 13:42, 21 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
As noted below my main concerns are from a process standpoint. Those would be addressed if there was a real discussion on this here....maybe have it open for a week.North8000 (talk) 13:50, 21 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
(edit conflict) I came across this because it came up for New Page Patrol review. I restored the redirect. One reason is that such was the decision from the last substantive discussion on this. Also the new references do not address the main reason for the decision which is that it is duplication of material in two other articles. My own additional thought is that extracting and emphasizing one particular aspect (as the title of this one does) is POV'ish. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 13:46, 21 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the clarification. I re-read the AfD discussion and I still don't see in which two other articles this information is duplicated. If it's the Anti-Russian_sentiment article, then its scope is much broader and it does not and should not contain all the information that I restored.
This article describes one aspect of the conflict, similar to 1999 Russian bombing of Chechnya or Bombing of Dresden in World War II. I don't see any NPOV issues here. At the end of the day, the notability should be determined based on reliable sources and the books I cited have chapters dedicated mostly to this topic ("Toward an ethnocratic Chechen state" in Russia confronts Chechnya and "Nationalism and the Nature of the Dudaev Regime" in Chechnya From Nationalism to Jihad). Alaexis¿question? 14:46, 21 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I'll leave it open for a week as you suggested. I've pinged the original closer but they haven't responded yet. Alaexis¿question? 15:04, 21 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No objections have been raised here, so I'm restoring the article. Alaexis¿question? 08:53, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Onel5969, this is the discussion, you are welcome to participate here. I tagged you when when you reverted me first and you haven't responded here. Alaexis¿question? 12:55, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You need to leave the discussion open for at least a month, in order to see if there is appropriate consensus (only due to the sporadic activity of some folks who watch the page, usually a week would be fine). Especially since prior consensus was unanimous. Am pinging prior participants, Sextus Caedicius, Jasphetamine, Ola Tønningsberg, Goddard2000, and Reiner Gavriel. And until a different consensus is reached, I would object to reinstating the article, as I believe it is a WP:FORK. Onel5969 TT me 13:01, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding WP:CFORK, by definition a "content fork is the creation of multiple separate articles all treating the same subject." Which article treats this subject already?
I've already tagged Sextus Caedicius but I have no problem getting feedback from other editors too. I've also placed notifications at Wikipedia:WikiProject Caucasia and Wikipedia:WikiProject Russia. Alaexis¿question? 13:16, 2 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Just to make sure I didn't confuse anybody with my final note, I don't have an opinion on how this should end up. What I did was only interim/temporary and only for the process reasons noted. Sincerely, North8000 (talk) 18:54, 3 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I am of the opinion that this article should not be reinstated, all the aforementioned reasons still stand in my opinion, as well as the fact that you didn’t commission any sort of vote before you did this either. There just isn’t much precedent on Wikipedia for this article to stand.( Post USSR Georgia, Tajikistan, Azerbaijan, etc.) Ola Tønningsberg (talk) 23:03, 25 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Which aforementioned reasons? I provided sources which cover this topic and so far there have been zero policy-based arguments why they don't count for determining notability. Alaexis¿question? 09:00, 26 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Onel5969, I've made every effort to reach consensus however as you can see no one has engaged with my arguments and with multiple reliable sources they are based upon. Consensus doesn't mean that one party can prevent any change by not participating in discussion. Alaexis¿question? 18:41, 3 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Alaexis - you made every effort. I think that's all anyone could ask. Thanks for your patience. Onel5969 TT me 22:45, 3 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, I’m trying to catch up here — is the new plan to ditch the old planAlaexis? Apologize for being off wiki so long. Jasphetamine (talk) 22:02, 12 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I think the article has been pretty stable after the clean up and improving the quality of the sources (some of which can be found below). Alaexis¿question? 19:01, 15 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Okay. I’m gonna go ahead and read it over myself, ping @Onel5969 as they were in the consensus of the previous decision with me, and see how I feel about it now. I just wanna get their current opinion and update my own opinion, don’t take it as me looking to build a case against your work. I’m just trying to decide if I want to help out with the c/e, or if there’s still a chance this thing might get jostled around again. Jasphetamine (talk) 19:23, 15 September 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The following books and articles describe the policies of the Chechen authorities towards non-Chechens in 1991-1994.

  • James Hughes. Chechnya: From Nationalism to Jihad, chapter Nationalism and the Nature of the Dudaev Regime
  • Dunlop, John Barrett. Russia Confronts Chechnya: Roots of a Separatist Conflict, chapter Toward an ethnocratic Chechen state starts with "Once he had solidified his grip on power, General Dudaev began the construction of an ethnocratic Chechen state" but I urge you to read the whole chapter.
  • Chechnya Versus Tatarstan: Understanding, Ethnopolitics in Post-Communist Russia [5], section Ethnic Exclusion in Chechnya

Alaexis¿question? 10:32, 26 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'm going to bow out here.North8000 (talk) 20:14, 3 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

2023[edit]

This article has severe issues. It largely relies on Russian sources to support it's view of "genocide" of the Russian speaking population of Chechnya. Looking through this it more or less constitues a WP:FRINGE theory. I will elaborate on this issue further when I have the chance. Ola Tønningsberg (talk) 11:20, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

It's not black and white... While it can hardly be considered a genocide, there are plenty of reliable sources (both Western and Russian) which describe the violence faced by the non-Chechens in the early 1990s.
Also, in the 1990s the press in Russia was relatively free, with multiple opposition media outlets criticising the way the government was prosecuting the war. Therefore, you can't just dismiss the Russian sources of that period. If there are new sources which illuminate this topic, let's see what they say and what changes we'll need to make. Alaexis¿question? 17:55, 5 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I think that if we're gonna ascribe crimes against humanity to a nation then you need incredible sourcing. The lack of sources from reliable human rights organizations or workers indicates that the content of this article is extremely dubious. Most of these allegations have originated from Russia and marks a conflict of interest on this matter. It can easily be compared to Accusations of genocide in Donbas, in which Russia accused Ukraine of committing genocide of the Russian speaking population. While some violence against citizens occurred, this was not exclusive to Russians. Moreover, criminality was commonplace across the whole former Soviet Union. Russian journalist and human rights activist, Maxim Shevchenko notes:

The legend of the genocide of Russians in Chechnya, which has become so entrenched on the Internet, does not really have sufficiently intelligible confirmation. Both Russians and non-Russians then had the same bad luck, believe me. Then people were killed in Moscow too. They threw old people and pensioners onto the streets. Gangs of Moscow were operating in the streets: Koptevskaya, Lyuberetskaya, various other gangs that robbed people, threw people out of their apartments ... I believe that most of the killed Russians happened after the start of the massive bombing of Grozny. This is simply proven historically.

— https://web.archive.org/web/20141022112008/http://www.rusnovosti.ru/programms/prog/70601/271620/
Ola Tønningsberg (talk) 00:18, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Do you really want to rely on Maksim Shevchenko's words? Recently he said that Russia is freeing the Ukrainians from a "liberal-fascist regime." Alaexis¿question? 13:51, 9 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Apologies, as I've been away from wiki for some time now. I acknowledge your skepticism regarding Maksim Shevchenko, but you need to consider the context and the content of his statement. Shevchenko's statement regarding the alleged genocide of Russians in Chechnya offers a perspective that counters the narrative supported by the Russian government at the time. This only lends credibility to his statement. Although his comment on Ukraine is absurd, his remark about Chechnya deserve consideration, especially since it offers a counter-narrative that he was not politically obliged to support. So yes, I do think it is something we can rely on. Ola Tønningsberg (talk) 20:10, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I also think it would be beneficial to consider Shevchenko's statements on Chechnya alongside reports from human rights organizations and media. Although I've been going through dozens of articles, I've yet to find reports from the early 1990s that support the stance of ethnic cleansing of the Russian population in Chechnya. Considering that Grozny was filled with journalists at the time, and considering the international community's response to such events elsewhere (Armenia, Bosnia etc.), I would expect that an ethnic cleansing of this magnitude would have resulted in an international uproar and large media coverage. The absence of reporting calls into question the scale and nature of the persecutions.
The only articles I could find from that period that mentions anything of the sort is this article from 1992 which says:

About 20,000 Russians have left the region, but more than 300,000 still stay because they enjoy a higher standard of living than in the bleak Russian heartlands, because of intermarriage or because they were born there and have nowhere else to go.

— https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1992-03-29-mn-473-story.html
Or this from 1994 that says Yeltsin accused Dudayev of persecuting Russians:

Russian government accused Dudayev of persecuting the 150,000 Russians who live in Chechnya. President Boris N. Yeltsin’s chief of staff, Sergei A. Filatov, also alleged that Dudayev supporters beheaded three Chechens who had helped Russian police catch a band of hijackers in southern Russia and had displayed their severed heads in downtown Grozny. The Russian Interior Ministry produced two gruesome photographs of heads and headless corpses, which were broadcast repeatedly Monday on Russian state television. Journalists in Grozny, however, have turned up no evidence that any such beheading ever took place. The Moscow Times newspaper, in a sharply worded editorial published Tuesday, suggested that the Yeltsin government may be trying to prepare the Russian public for a military incursion.

— https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-1994-08-03-mn-23004-story.html
Ola Tønningsberg (talk) 20:40, 7 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Also, this wouldn’t be the first occasion that the sufferings of a group get less international attention, especially if the perpetrators are supported by at least the majority of the Western public opinion, see Kosovo Serbs, Arabs in Iraqi Kurdistan or the pro-Gaddafi blacks in Tawergha. Without trying to say that the Serbian, Iraqi or Libyan governments, respectively, were not the greater evil in these cases (or the Russian Army in Chechnya, for that matter), this phenomenon does exist. Txorria (talk) 09:21, 20 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
First of all, the LA Times article reports a number of the ethnic Russian population of Chechnya which exceeds that of the results of the census in 1989. Even supposing that this is the result of conflating other non-Chechens with Russians, the question why the Russian population has mostly fled by 2002 and why didn’t they return later if they were fleeing from the war is not explained.
Also, beside those already mentioned in the article, there are definitely anti-Putinist, liberal sources which confirm that ethnic violence against Russians in Chechnya did happen, even if some accounts were exaggerated by the Russian government.

Oleg Orlov, the head of the Memorial human rights centre’s North Caucasus programme told me that both he and Russia’s Human Rights Ombudsperson Sergey Kovalev had witnessed harassment of Chechnya’s Russian-speaking population. “We encountered lawless and outrageous situations,” Orlov told me. “Gangs of bandits were attacking Russian speakers, knowing that the authorities in the de facto independent Chechen Republic of Ichkeria wouldn’t touch them. We handed all the information we gathered to [then President] Yeltsin. But there was no need for it, because soon afterwards a war broke out. “

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/odr/left-behind-russian-life-chechnya/
BTW, Neroznikova usually writes about the human rights violations in Chechnya by the Kadyrov regime and the Russian state, so she is not a Russian nationalist spreading fake news. Txorria (talk) 08:33, 20 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wanted to add to Txorria's comment above, WP:AGEMATTERS applies here. A contemporary article in LA Times is a less reliable source than books or reports (like the 2019 Open Democracy report mentioned above) published later when more evidence became available. Also, the accusations by Yeltsin's officials are irrelevant - "just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they aren't after you." The abuses were convenient for Yeltsin who wanted a quick and victorious war but it doesn't mean they did not take place. Alaexis¿question? 11:03, 20 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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