Talk:Gay anthem/Archive 1

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This page would have a slew more legitimacy and credibility if some evidence was noted regarding why these songs should or are considered gay anthems.

For example,

  • "It's Raining Men" gained wide recognition as a gay anthem (assuming it didn't beforehand) from its use in the "Men On Film" recurring sketch on In Living Color.

Keith D. Tyler [AMA] 07:24, Mar 12, 2005 (UTC)

That's when it became known to the general public as a gay anthem, years after it lost favor in gay clubs. Davodd 03:42, 4 April 2006 (UTC)

¿A quién le importa?

Is Thalía's A quién le importa a cover of the earlier hit by Alaska?--Error 20:55, 12 Mar 2005 (UTC)


"Body Talk" by Imagination. Just a classic anywhere and for everyone, but dragged into the Gay genre by being sexualised and hightened by the camp overacting by the bad themselves.

Verification

This article has some severe verification problems. I know little about "gay anthems", but it seems people can (and are) adding whatever song pops into their head. I think this is the sort of article that is better treated as an article (with a few examples given in the text), rather than a list . -R. fiend 16:01, 13 November 2005 (UTC)

Original research moved from article

Moved here - recreation of List of gay anthems.

Notable gay anthems

Moved unverified list here.... Davodd 23:58, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Naming Issue (LGBT anthem vs gay anthem)

I know people are trying to group everything under the LGBT classification for ease of use and access, but I have never heard anybody call a gay anthem a LGBT anthem. I think this name was probably just made up for this article so that it could fit in with the LGBT categories. A quick google search gives 138 results for "LGBT anthem"[1] and 20,400 results for "gay anthem"[2]. While a Google search isn't definitive, a difference in two orders of magnitude is striking. Cheers.--Burzum 12:37, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree. The term is "gay anthem" just like "gay bashing" or "gay bar" are not "LGBT bashing" or "LGBT bar." - Davodd 19:56, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

AFD

kept: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Gay anthem

deleted: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of gay anthems

Skrewdriver, the skinhead white power band, has a gay anthem? Really? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.193.237.232 (talk) 06:48, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Moving original research from main article

The following list is moved here fro the main article because it is original research and quite possibly opinion and therefore unverifiable.

Songs

An Australian poll recently compiled the 50 definitive gay anthems in time for the 30th Annual Sydney Gay and Lesbian Mardi Gras:

Other noteworthy anthems:

See:

  • Wikipedia policy banning original research: WP:NOR
  • Wikipedia policy banning opinion: WP:NOTOPINION
  • Wikipedia policy mandating verifiability: WP:V

- Davodd (talk) 08:19, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

"Er gehört zu mir"

This article could use an international twist - it's focussing entirely on the anglophone world right now. I know that Marianne Rosenberg's Er gehört zu mir is a prime example of a gay anthem in Germany, and certainly, there must be ones in other countries as well. -- Schneelocke (talk) 09:52, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Gaynthems

Just removed this unsourced statement from the article: 'Colloquially, gay anthems are called "gaynthems."' I've never heard of this term, so I Googled it. "Gaynthems" returned only 9 results (one of which was this article), and "gaynthem" returned only one (and none in English). This hardly seems worthy of a mention in the article here - Wikipedia is not the place for propagating invented words and phrases, only for documenting those that already exist. I'm adding this discussion here in case anyone can cite a reason why it is should be included.  ;-) leevclarke (talk) 00:36, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Moving unsourced, possible WP:OR to Talk Page

The following material...

Some Eurovision Song Contest songs become gay anthems such as the Eurovision 1998 winning song "Diva" by transsexual Israeli Dana International, Croatian 1999 entry "Marija Magdalena" by Doris Dragović and Danish 2007 entry "Drama Queen" by drag DQ. Eurovision 2006 hopefuls drag Queentastic's "Absolutely Fabulous" is also a case in point. Claudette Pace who represented Malta in 2000 issued a gay-anthem entitled "Power of Pink". She performed it at the UK's Gay Pride in 2001.

Less common, but still notable, are gay garage rock, punk and hardcore anthems, including songs by artists such as Jayne County such as "Man Enough to Be a Woman", t.A.T.u.'s Malchik Gay, "All the Things She Said", Buzzcocks' "Orgasm Addict", "Ti Voglio Bene" by Italian star Tiziano Ferro, a number of singles by Pansy Division and songs by Team Dresch and Tribe 8. (See also Queercore). A new gay anthem is Heather Small and her performance of "Proud", released in the Proud album in 2000, and featured in the Showtime original show Queer as Folk. Latin examples are "¿A Quién le Importa?" by Alaska y Dinarama and "Todos Me Miran" by Gloria Trevi.

However rarely known outside the LGBT community is that some heterosexual pop rock and post-grunge bands like Fall Out Boy, Maroon 5, Panic at the Disco, Jonas Brothers, Nickelback, Three Days Grace, Matchbox Twenty, Staind, 3 Doors Down, Daughtry, and My Chemical Romance are very popular among the gay community.[citation needed]

...appears to be original research. Please fill free to return this to the article once it had been verified with adequate source documentation. - Davodd (talk) 21:56, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Timeline

I added a timeline as a start of a History section. Unfortunately further development by me will have to be on hold for a couple weeks since I'm in law school finals until May 7. After that, I'm hoping to be able to expand and convert it from a mere list to a full-paragraph narrative; akin to how gay icon has developed from a stubby list to a full article over the past two years. Feel free to critique or pitch in to improve or change what I have done. - Davodd (talk) 06:20, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

"LGBT Anthem" - oh please!

Nobody is going to use this term. Bitbut (talk) 14:01, 29 July 2009 (UTC)

Moving unsourced to talk page

The following:

Less common, but still notable, are gay garage rock, punk and hardcore anthems, including songs by artists such as Jayne County such as "Man Enough to Be a Woman", Buzzcocks' "Orgasm Addict", a number of singles by Pansy Division and songs by Team Dresch and Tribe 8 (See also Queercore).[original research?]

Was moved here after more than one year without adequate citation as per the W:NOR rule. - Davodd (talk) 18:17, 3 October 2010 (UTC)

Gay Anthem Consensus

We should look into the legitimacy of some of the songs on this list, specifically Born This Way by Lady Gaga. It seems to me that this song was proclaimed as a gay anthem by the musician, as opposed to actually being a song that's been incorporated into LGBTQ life. Kyle Leitch —Preceding undated comment added 03:41, 25 February 2011 (UTC).

I think it's rather hard to validate "anthem status" of modern songs, since their lifetime is relatively short. We effectively have to rely on public opinion. I'm resident DJ at a historic gay-friendly bar, and from my personal observations interacting with staff, patrons, etc. (most of whom are gay, bi, or lesbian) and based on frequency of requests and so forth, the following recent releases have shown definitive anthem status.

  • Ke$sha - We R Who We Are
  • Lady Gaga - Born this Way
  • P!nk - Raise Your Glass
  • Katy Perry - Firework

It is worth noting the release dates of all four songs were within months of each other, and for good reason -- they were written in response to the rash of LGBT teen suicides in 2010. Likewise, they were all well received within the LGBT community. This can be verified by countless news sources, blogs, etc. Here's one New York Times article that even specifically mentions all four songs:

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/07/fashion/07ANTHEM.html

--RKrause (talk) 23:21, 28 July 2011 (UTC)

Bronski Beat Jimmy Sommerville

Definitely need to list something of his here. Johnhgagon (talk) 23:03, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Marc Almond didn't make the list. One might think that "Tainted Love" should have made the cut. Likewise, Divine's "You Think You're a Man." Eria Fachin's "Savin' Myself," there are others. The trick is finding a reliable source to validate the song's inclusion.

About that song list...

The article used to include a huge table of songs that supposedly qualify as gay anthems. The list was controversial, being described as a "laundry list" or indiscriminate collection of songs. In most cases no evidence was provided that the songs are significantly regarded as gay anthems. The table overwhelmed the article, to the point where the article almost got deleted at AfD. The table of songs was nuked in April 2014, leaving a couple of verified anthems in the prose section, and the article has been the better for it. There have been some attempts to reinstate the table, but that will not happen unless consensus to do so is reached here at the talk page. --MelanieN (talk) 16:54, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

You are being terribly diplomatic in describing its pre-AfD state as an article. I am considering editing the page notice for the article - like I did with User talk:Launchballer/Editnotice - do editnotices work the same way for articles as they do with talk pages?--Launchballer 17:02, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
I don't think that's necessary. It's only been re-added twice; that's not a lot by Wikipedia standards. A couple of us watchlisting the article is sufficient. (BTW you only beat me to the revert by about a minute.) --MelanieN (talk) 17:16, 14 May 2014 (UTC)
I also have this page on "watchlist", though I don't check my watchlist with great regularity. If I see this indiscriminate list return I'll take appropriate action. (To be honest, I have reservations about several of the songs we're already mentioning in the article, too.) RomanSpa (talk) 07:17, 15 May 2014 (UTC)

Why I reverted recent edits

Somebody recently inserted good-faith and well-written edits, changing our definition of a gay anthem from "has become widely popular among, or has become identified with, the gay community, particularly homosexual men, although some of these songs may also become anthems for the rest of the LGBT community" to "speaks to the issues or themes surrounding the LGBT community." I reverted the changes. I understand how the second version could be considered a definition, but it is not the definition we find in Reliable Sources speaking about the subject. Note that many "gay anthems" (identified as such by Reliable Sources) are not specifically about the gay community, for example I will survive. And not all songs dealing with the "issues or themes surrounding the LGBT community" have become gay anthems - that is, defined by Reliable Sources as gay anthems. I'd be glad to talk about this further here. --MelanieN (talk) 18:43, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

This does certainly not represent a worldwide point of view

Where are the songs that are not in English? The first gay anthem was German: Das lila Lied. In the 20s and 30s there were a lot of gay themed songs in German, like Wenn die Beste Freundin. In the 70s we have Denn Ich Will by Andre Heller and Ich bin wie du by Marianne Rosenberg.

In the Spanish-speaking world we have not only ¿A quién le importa? by Alaska, in the 80s, not in 2002 by Thalía, but Mujer contra mujer by Mecano, Sobreviviré by Mónica Naranjo, or El cielo no entiende by OBK. I'm sure you can find gay anthems in French (see fr:Homosexualité dans la chanson française), Dutch or Italian.

In Russian we can mention The Blue Moon by Boris Moiseev and Nikolai Trubach, Everyone wants to love by Valery Leontyev, or Stop the Earth by Lolita Milyavskaya.

And not to speak about J-Pop and K-Pop, that have --I'm sure-- their gay anthems.

--Ecelan (talk) 16:04, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

"Welcome to Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia that anyone can edit." Narky Blert (talk) 05:18, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Proposal to remove List of historically significant gay anthem songs

There is a clear consensus against removing the list of historically significant gay anthem songs.

Editors have suggested other changes such as requiring three sources for a song to be included in the list, removing the term "historically", and added a "context" section to the list. These suggestions can be boldly implemented and discussed if there are any objections.

Cunard (talk) 00:01, 3 May 2020 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

I'm proposing to remove the "List of historically significant gay anthem songs" from this article. The table provides no context to entries. It doesn't explain what qualifies as them as a Gay Anthem (a lot of them weren't written to have LGBT themes, so without the context explaining how they became gay anthems anyway is leading out important information). The years are misleading because a lot of these songs became gay anthems years/decades after being released. And there's nothing to explain why these songs are historically significant, which a lot of them aren't. I would support a section in prose which includes a smaller list of noteworthy of gay anthems that provides context to how they became gay anthems and why they're particularly significantly. JDDJS (talk to me • see what I've done) 15:09, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

  • Opposed. I find the list to be the most useful part of the article—which needs a lot of work. If you have the ambition I would aim to build a prose History of gay anthems like you alluded. As you fill that out, also migrate annotated information to the list adding to the reference column. Eventually the list will be more meaningful and can be its own list article. Gleeanon409 (talk) 19:11, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
    • @Gleeanon409: You haven't addressed any of my concerns about the lack of context misinforms readers or how a lot (if not most) of the songs on the list aren't "historically significant" like the section title claims. Also, a lot of these songs have LGBT themes, but that alone doesn't make it a gay anthem. JDDJS (talk to me • see what I've done) 20:42, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
      • Those are addressed by renaming it as simply a list of gay anthems, and with added notes on each entry explaining their inclusion. Gleeanon409 (talk) 22:20, 27 March 2020 (UTC)
  • It's good to see they all appear to be sourced. However I'd like to suggest an alternate idea. The current list is overly long, it's surely only going to get longer, and the fact that one random yahoo (published in an RS) considers a song to be a Gay Anthem is a really weak standard. I think the list would be more reasonable and more useful if multiple independent Reliable Sources were required to get on the list, to ensure a song actually has significant recognition as a gay anthem. (Songs with less sources could be a {{Pin section}} on talk, so people can collect more sources.) Requiring three sources looks like the list would still have sixty songs or so, and I expect people would dig up sources expanding the list again. I'd suggest requiring three sources to start and bumping the requirement when the list grows. Also the list should be renamed - you would really need a textural justification to claim a song is "historically" significant. I think the list can just say "List of significant gay anthem songs[footnote]", with the footnote stating the number of independent Reliable Sources required for listing. It would also be a good idea to ensure all songs mentioned in the article-text come from the list, unless there is some clear reason a specific song was needed for that bit of text. Alsee (talk) 17:46, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
  • I agree with these points with the exception of some of the oldest songs where sourcing may prove to be too difficult for multiple sourcing. Perhaps a cut-off of pre-Stonewall would be acceptable? Gleeanon409 (talk) 21:15, 29 March 2020 (UTC)
Extended content
I disagree with multiple and bumping sources as a requirement for every single entry on the list, that would result in excessive citations, multiple sources that simply parrot the other sources...contribute nothing to the article's reliability and are detrimental to its readability. The standard should be high-quality sources, and we should exclude sources like self-published blogs, tweets, facebook, instagram, forums, user-generated content, etc. Frankly, I was astounded by the amount of reliable sources I found in relation to gay anthem songs and lists of gay anthem songs, there is no shortage of sources. And if the list does start to get lengthy, there shouldn't be any problem splitting it off into it's own separate article, it clearly satisfies the guidelines for stand-alone lists, — discussed as a group or set by independent reliable sources. Isaidnoway (talk) 11:48, 30 March 2020 (UTC)
  • Oppose I don't see the years as misleading (it says "Year released") and if it's important, we can have a description or context section added to the table to explain why it's been called a "gay anthem." (Similar to List of video games with LGBT characters or LGBT slang having a longer section for explanation). But I do agree with Isaidnoway in general, about removing the word "Historically" from the title and not requiring multiple sources. As with regular Wikipedia guidelines, as long as it's a reliable source that can verify the information (in this case, the source needs to verify that the song is either thought of or known as a gay anthem), then it should be fine. If it seems like a weaker opinion piece is being used as a source and it is contested, then those additions can be talked about on a case-by-case basis. But one source should be enough if it's reliable and verifies the information. I don't see any reason why this list should be held to stricter standards than any other list on Wikipedia. - Whisperjanes (talk) 17:31, 8 April 2020 (UTC)
  • Oppose. The list is valuable for understanding the topic. Maybe it should be tighter and contain the most significant ones, but it should be cut out all together.--KasiaNL (talk) 05:32, 16 April 2020 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Not sure if this song should be put on...

Should 'Girls' by Beastie Boys be but on here? I feel like it's starting to become an anthem.

Chasezly (talk) 20:28, 18 May 2020 (UTC)

This entry needs serious revision

The author of this page seems to be confusing songs that are/were popular in certain LGBTQI bars/clubs with true Gay Anthems. The article is riddled with personal opinion and should be marked for revision. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.6.58.73 (talk) 19:30, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

This should not even be an article. It can never be more than an opinion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:241:8D82:5750:808F:89A3:748F:125E (talk) 14:55, 8 July 2020 (UTC)

Should this song be added?

I am wondering if I should add Power by English girl group Little Mix? It is being played at many European pride parades recently but I am unsure if I should add it with this being the only reason. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Avakinlifeleah (talk • contribs) 18:42, 6 November 2020 (UTC)

Standards for inclusion

There should be established standards for including songs on the list. Too many of the entries have sources that don't establish them as a "gay anthem," or have a single source that's just a Buzzfeed-level listicle.

I propose that entries should have at least one academic source or two popular secondary sources (as in, not an artist calling their own song a gay anthem.) Mcrsftdog (talk) 22:38, 9 December 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 February 2021

“Run” by BTS should be added to the list. Year: 2015 2001:999:83:2266:A0C7:1943:69FA:7AA2 (talk) 20:05, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Melmann 20:17, 21 February 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 March 2021

They Don't Know About Us by One Direction 173.15.75.153 (talk) 01:29, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ◢  Ganbaruby!  (Say hi!) 01:58, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

Issues Template Discussion

I have placed a Multiple Issues template on this article under the following cleanup criteria:

  • This article may need to be rewritten to comply with Wikipedia's quality standards.
  • This article contains embedded lists that may be poorly defined, unverified, or indiscriminate.
  • This article possibly contains inappropriate or misinterpreted citations that do not verify the text.

Firstly, the article is entirely not encyclopedic in tone or construction. It is essentially a vehicle for a listicle. Excessive lists permeate the body of the article, followed by that monolithic table of song listings, many of which have sources that do not meet Wikipedia's standards for notability or reliability. As of me writing this, there are a total of 292 citations, only 11 of which are actually used within the body of the article at all. The rest are entirely just there to justify adding a song to the table.

This page is also a frequent target for vandalization and poor-quality edits, primarily from fans of specific artists trying to add their songs to the table. (Recently, individuals have started attempting to disguise vandalism by making legitimate edits at the same time as replacing other entries.) Very questionable changes have been made in good faith, such as attempting to add a column to list which specific LGBT identities a song is an "anthem" for.

Here are my proposals for improving the article.

  1. The article is rewritten from scratch and re-centered around defining and contextualizing what a "Gay Anthem" is and what overall significance it has, to answer any basic questions an individual unfamiliar with the term might have. What is a gay anthem? What criteria makes a song become considered a gay anthem? Can gay anthems have any subject matter? When was the term coined? Is the term used mainly in specific regions or by specific demographics? What relevance does this have to LGBT history and culture? A short article with quality citations should probably be enough to cover the topic.
  2. Due to the subjectivity of the term and the fact that virtually any song could have significance to a given group of LGBT individuals, I suggest doing away with the list entirely. This would also likely result in less vandalism and fewer misguided additions. Examples are useful for understanding the subject, but they should be listed in multiple credible sources, preferably already used elsewhere in the article to avoid aggregating low-quality citations as we have been, and can be clearly identified with a major significant population or historical event. (IE, a song notable in Ball Culture)
  3. Prefer sources with a focus on the topic specifically as it is relevant to LGBT culture and history. Most current citations are from periodicals covering music, and have minimal usefulness for explaining the subject encyclopedically. There may be writings on the topic by gender studies authors or LGBT historians. (In addition, sources that cover the topic outside of the US would be nice if they exist.) Currently, the only major source used to define the term is the book Queer. (The full title of the book seems to actually be Queer: The Ultimate User's Guide.) It appears to be a book specifically dedicated to documenting gay and lesbian culture, so I wouldn't discount it entirely, but the article needs to cite multiple reliable sources to meet quality standards.

If you have input, ideas, or criticisms, or if you have identified useful sources for improving the article, your contribution is appreciated.

NebulousPhantom (talk) 03:14, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

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