Talk:Khanom thuai

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Food and drink

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The name[edit]

I moved the title from Coconut pudding to Thai coconut pudding because there have several coconut puddings in the world. So the coconut pudding is neither exclusive nor indigenous to Thai cuisine. It is called Khanom Talai in Thai according to a couple of books, but some sources say Khanom Krok[1]. However, in many sources, Khanom Krok is referred to as coconut pancake just like Serabi (Indonesian coconut pancake), so the two names may refer to one same dish. Anyway, Thai coconut pudding is more widely used than Khanom Talai, so I moved to here. --Caspian blue 22:20, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

one of the most popular desserts???[edit]

The tiny bit of text, other than the list of ingredients, which is contained in this article is, in my experience, incorrect. If this article isn't expanded within a few months, I will nominate it for deletion. Takeaway (talk) 02:50, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Not really an expansion, but cleaned up a bit, and moved to a more proper (in my opinion) title. --Paul_012 ^(talk) 15:00, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent! And the disambiguation page "Thai coconut pudding" is perfect! Takeaway (talk) 08:31, 25 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The recent title move[edit]

I already gave my reason regarding the title in the first tread, however I state one more time because of the undiscussed move and the claim about "established name". The Google result, 9 for "Khanom thuai" by no means can be said more prevalent English name or transliteration than 50,600 for "Thai coconut pudding" which sounds contrary to User:Paul_012's claim. The former has 3 book hits and no news article while the latter has 3 news articles and two books. So please tell me about Thai naming convention or any plausible rationale for your stance.--Caspian blue 15:30, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Thai coconut pudding" utterly fails Wikipedia:Naming conventions (precision). Clicking through the first few search results shows that they refer to a diverse range of dishes, and thus the term barely helps identify the article's subject. Due to the discrepancies in transcribing and transliterating Thai, the name of the dish may be variably spelled as "khanom thuay", "khanom thuai", "khanom tuay", "khanom tuai", "kanom thuai", "kanom thuay", "kanom tuai" or "kanom tuay", which give 682, 9, 169, 9, 2, 201, 872 and 853 Google hits, respectively (although I acknowledge that there may be overlaps and false positives). The choice of Khanom thuai for the article stemmed from previous conventions of following the Royal Thai General System of Transcription when there is no proper established spelling. --Paul_012 ^(talk) 15:53, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Also, I find it useful to keep in mind when employing Google tests that Wikipedia has a lot of content forks and mirrors, and that recipe websites tend to appear redundant with each other. In this case, Google omits the results for "Thai coconut pudding" after 95 when browsing the results to the last page, compared with 98 for "khanom thuay". --Paul_012 ^(talk) 15:58, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Google hit measure is not a reliable source, however, can be a way to quickly gauge which one is more prevalent name for the food If you look into 9 Ghits for Khanom thuai, the result shows that the term is used for "overlapped" items, not solid one. If you believe that usages of the alternative spellings are more widely established English names and specific than Thai coconut pudding, then please show first examples first (you said false positives could be shown), and then we can move the title to an appropriate title.--Caspian blue 16:17, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think you may be looking at this from the wrong direction. Since "Thai coconut pudding" is the attempted translation of a traditional Thai dish with a Thai name, surely the overlap must result from the derived name, not the original? The fact that ขนมถ้วยตะไล is defined in the official Thai dictionary tells us that this a specific individual dish, distinct from khanom khrok, khanom mokaeng or any other dish that may be referred to as "Thai coconut pudding". This alone is enough to discount "Thai coconut pudding" as a valid article title. The false positives previously mentioned are indeed from khanom thuai fu, which is a different dish, but is never referred to only as khanom thuai. In any case, khanom thuay (and spelling variations) give various Gnews [2] [3] [4] and Gbooks [5] [6] [7] hits, which outnumber your previously given example, at least two of which were referring to khanom khrok and sangkhaya rather than khanom thuay. --Paul_012 ^(talk) 16:48, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, my approach was for clarification, so I don't think my demand for your rationale and the scrutiny is worthless. Your first move did not reflect your following argument, but the alternative spelling presented by you would be a good solution to resolve the issue. And the Thai coconunt pudding should be a disambiguation to differentiate dishes referred to as such.--Caspian blue 17:10, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There's still a catch with the spelling issue. Although khanom thuay may appear to be much more common than khanom thuai, kanom tuai and kanom tuay also are. Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English) states that:

Names not originally in a Latin alphabet, as with Greek, Chinese or Russian, must be transliterated into characters generally intelligible to literate speakers of English. Established systematic transliterations (e.g. Hanyu Pinyin) are preferred. Do not substitute a systematically transliterated name for the common English form of the name, if there is one; thus, use Tchaikovsky or Chiang Kai-shek even though those are unsystematic.

Since the RTGS is the established systemic transcription for the Thai language on Wikipedia, following guidelines, the article should be placed at Khanom thuai, even though it appears in less common usage than other spelling variations. --Paul_012 ^(talk) 17:43, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thai naming convention sounds very different from the Chinese naming convention (the latter follows "common usage" in real life). Since you're saying that Khanom thuai is a correct transliteration than Khanom thuay regardless of the lack of its dominant usage, so be the title.--Caspian blue 17:53, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]