Talk:Maine Italian sandwich

italian subs all across the US are like this

there is too much maine-centric stuff in this article, every italian sandwich in the country has essentially the same ingredients 67.204.153.57 (talk) 00:18, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

That's because the Italian sandwich was invented in Maine. And no, sandwiches across the country don't have essentially the same ingredients, nor are they usually called "Italians" (and if they are, it doesn't mean the same thing as it does in Maine), though some of the BS in this article may give such an impression. Italians never have lettuce, mayonnaise, or mustard (regardless of what this article says), nor any other ingredients aside from the following:

- Italian sandwich rolls

- Salami (or ham or turkey cold cuts; salami, usually of the cooked variety, is the original)

- American cheese

- Tomato

- Onion

- Green pepper

- Dill pickle

- Black olive (optional)

- Salad oil

- Salt

- Pepper

And unlike similar sandwiches across the country, you don't just go substituting or adding stuff all willy-nilly. You want mayonnaise or mustard? Fine, but that's not an Italian. You want provolone cheese instead of American? No problem, but that's not an Italian either. An Italian is a fairly specific thing which is almost unique to Maine, and this article fails to get that point across because it relies on sources published by people who don't know what they're talking about, and are in all likelihood, not from Maine. When you go making substitutions and additions on a whim, you're just making a sub, or a hero, or whatever flatlanders call their submarine-shaped sandwiches with random ingredients. I've lived in Maine all my life, and I've had Italians from countless convenience stores, and they all conform to what I typed above. Of course, if you go to a place that makes them fresh to order, you may be able to get whatever you want on it, but that's just a case of "the customer is always right"; it doesn't redefine what a standard Italian is.

Does your local grocery store sell bread specifically labeled as "Italian sandwich rolls" - http://i.imgur.com/H5ffd1F.jpg? Mine does.

By the way, not one of the three pictures in this article shows an Italian. Here's a picture of an Italian that I made - http://i.imgur.com/PNBCtTj.jpg. The only ingredients not visible in the picture are the green peppers and onions, which are underneath the visible ingredients. I didn't use black olives in that instance, but sometimes I do. – MaximRecoil (talk) 02:03, 28 June 2016 (UTC)

This is supposed to be an Encyclopedia with published, verified facts not a place to push a historical narrative based on speculation and personal experience. Every national chain I can find from Subway (west coast) to Jersey Mike's to Earl of Sandwich (Florida) to Potbelly Sandwiches (Chicago) has an "Italian" that combines some set of coldcuts and cheese with cold fresh ingredients like lettuce, tomato, and onion, and cold acidic ingredients like pickles and hot peppers in some form. It doesn't matter what other sort of other evidence you can bring into the argument, what sort of ingredients you know are served, or what sort of bread your grocery store sells. It doesn't matter what your personal knowledge is surrounding the sandwich. Even if you're a credible published food historian, citing your own book goes against wikipedia's conflict of interest and original research rules, let alone citing where you live and the sandwich you just made. Without a source that definitively shows that the lineage of the type of sandwich referred to as an Italian throughout the country is from Amato, then all of these references to Maine just don't belong here. If there's a source that actually says exactly that, then great. Andythechef (talk) 07:15, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Italian subs in other parts of the country and Italian subs in Maine are distinct styles of sandwich, I don't think there's any relationship between them beyond the name and the shape, which is why almost everything in the article is wrong. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.102.165.46 (talk) 20:48, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

Need better source for the root of this sandwich being Maine: history seems like original research

"The Italian sandwich was invented in Portland, Maine, by baker Giovanni Amato in 1903.[3][4]"

The Road Food book says this: "Although it is similar to hoagies, heroes, grinders, blimps, zeps, wedges and submarines elsewhere, the italian sandwich of Portland, Maine has a character all it's own."

It doesn't assert anywhere that the root of all other similar sandwiches is the Portland italian... it just talks about the origin of the Portland italian and even says it's similar to the sandwiches a lot of places.

The Oxford link doesn't mention anything about this sandwich and using the book's search utility, the name Amato is never mentioned, and it seems like the only Portland mentioned is Oregon. Other places in Maine are mentioned but none seem to refer to a sandwich from the little bits of context clues.

Barring a source that is able to definitively trace the origin of all sandwiches called an Italian to Amato, that lineage remains a matter of speculation and doesn't belong in an encyclopedia article about the Italian sandwich on a whole. There could be another article that talks about the Maine variant of the Italian, or maybe a subsection that talks about regional variations, but it needs to clearly state that it is only referring to the type of the Italian served in Maine, and not the Italian in general.

Bottom line: It's obviously controversial enough to warrant a source. The provided sources simply don't support that. Get a source that does or I'm going to clean it up. Andythechef (talk) 07:15, 20 April 2021 (UTC)

Proposed renaming

After doing some research on the use of the term, I propose 1) removing any reference to this being the basis for other sandwiches referred to as Italian Sandwiches unless a reputable source unambiguously confirms that lineage, and 2) renaming this article to "Maine Italian Sandwich" because "Italian Sandwich" is a generic term covered by Submarine sandwich and many places claim to have invented them, though few credibly. It was likely a confluence of trends that lead to this sort of dish happening in many places at once, independently. Andythechef (talk) 02:42, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 24 April 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 09:42, 1 May 2021 (UTC)

---

Italian sandwich → Maine Italian sandwich – This article is about Maine's version of the Italian and not every sandwich called an Italian. Every major sub chain in the country has a cold cut sub they call an Italian, and Maine is one of many places that claims to have invented it. When mentioning it, Yankee Magazine calls the assertion that Amato even invented Maine's own version 'local lore,' let alone that being the basis for all others. Maybe this article should just redirect to Submarine sandwich? Thoughts? Andythechef (talk) 01:59, 24 April 2021 (UTC) Andythechef (talk) 01:59, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

• Support per nominator. It is clear that this is specifically about the Maine Italian sandwich, in which case the plain term "Italian sandwich" is confusing. JIP | Talk 13:25, 24 April 2021 (UTC)
• Support per nom. As opposed to a sandwich from Italy... -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:36, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

References

Cleanup

I'm making a running list here of things I'm cleaning up in this article

Changing:

"The Italian sandwich, sometimes referred to as the Maine Italian sandwich, is an American submarine sandwich in Italian-American cuisine prepared on a long bread roll or bun with meats, cheese and various vegetables. The Italian sandwich was invented in Portland, Maine, in 1903 by Giovanni Amato, a baker. It is known as a grinder or a sub in Boston, Massachusetts, and as a spuckie in East Boston."

To:

"Maine's Italian sandwich, sometimes referred to as the Maine Italian sandwich, is an American submarine sandwich in Italian-American cuisine prepared on a long bread roll or bun with meats, cheese and various vegetables. The Maine Italian sandwich was invented in Portland, Maine, in 1903 by Giovanni Amato, a baker."

Andythechef (talk) 00:15, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Removing:

"Outside of Maine, Italian sandwiches are typically prepared on a hard or soft Italian roll with the following ingredients: all thinly sliced to order meats including danish ham, genoa salami and capicolla along with provolone, shredded lettuce, onion, oil and vinegar, cracked black pepper and dried oregano. Additional ingredients, such as banana pepper and/or hot peppers may be added to the sandwich. "

"It is stated by the Italian food authority Bella Sun Luci you do not use hard/crusty artisan style bread, like a French baguette."

"The Italian sandwich is known as a grinder or a sub in Boston, Massachusetts, and in East Boston it is referred to as a “spuckie”, derived from the Italian verb spaccare, “to split.” In Philadelphia and South Jersey it is known as a "hoagie" or a "grinder"."

These references are to other Italian sandiwches

Removing the cite to Sciorra because it is not a reference to the Maine Italian Sandwich.

Andythechef (talk) 00:15, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Cleaning up "See Also" Andythechef (talk) 12:49, 16 May 2021 (UTC)

References

Basic Info Seems Wrong...

When I think of an italian I mainly thinking of a sandwich with Mortadella, Salami, and Capicola and oil.(veggies are a bit more analogous but to me that is the basis. Google seems to agree with me with the first three recipes returned all showing a similar base[Mortadella, Salami, and Capicola and oil.] I suggest this article be rewritten, or a piece be written mentioning this. It seems a bit misleading to be describing an Italian in a way which is non-traditional (Stating veggies instead of focusing on meat). I understand that the way in which a sandwich is prepared is not the same from one place to another but each build has its basis, and when it comes to an Italian which allows one to define it as such, for an Italian the stated: Mortadella, Salami, and Capicola and oil, looks to be it. If no counterargument to this is made in the next month I will add the following piece below the current preparation section:

The basis of a modern Italian sandwich normally consists of capicola/ham, bologna/mortadella, salami, and oil. Veggies and cheese vary widely.

73.234.208.114 (talk) 20:26, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

No, the info is correct: it is describing a fundamentally different sandwich specific to Maine. See: submarine sandwich. Andythechef (talk) 14:25, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

References