Talk:PPSh-41

Users Section of the Article

Who deleted most of the users referenced in the article and why?KVLG (talk) 06:54, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

They were deleted because they were unreferenced and tagged for several months. Without a citation the text is not verifiable so it does not contribute to the article. If you find citations for the other users you can add them back by following one of the citation templates. ROG5728 (talk) 07:32, 3 February 2010 (UTC)

PPsh-41 have been seen in the hands of Pro-Russia insurgents in the Eastern Ukraine Conflict (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mw_i74BFJ_U) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.40.153.120 (talk) 14:40, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

K50M

the uk imperial war museum collections has one http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/30029439 Man74 (talk) 23:52, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

Dajav Guitar

The PPSh-41 is called the "davaj guitar" in former soviet satellite states. This refers to the WWII Red Army soldier saying "davaj tshasi!" (hand over your wristwatch ... or I will shoot you!) because clocks were the most sought-after objects among soviet soldiers, they confiscated several millions of them from civilians and POWs. Afterwards the USSR bought several wrist-watch companies in Europe and transferred their equipment back to the USSR to satisfy the peoples appetite for clocks during the 1950s and 60s. 195.70.32.136 18:59, 23 January 2006 (UTC)

• But what does that have to do with guitars? In Poland thaere is a rhyme "Nic tak nie cieszy jak seria z pepeszy" [1] "Nothing is as funny as a burst of automatic fire from a PPSh-41" :) Mieciu K 00:01, 30 October 2006 (UTC)

Factory Militias?

A Jane's Guide from the 80s indicates that the PPSh-41 was still in use by "factory militias" as late as the 1970s. First, what exactly is a factory militia - I'd assume workers tasked w/ defending their own factory, but am not sure. Secondly, any confirmation of this? Jane's is usually pretty authoritative though.

In many communist states there were attempts to arm the working class to ensure the power of the communist party. Such workers militias like the "Kampfgruppen" in the GDR were often used as light infantry and were equipped with old WW-II-weapons like the German K98, the soviet Mosin-Nagant or the PPSh-41. So I think, Jane's Guide is right. Nekka 09:09, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Factory militia is probably an equivalent of Polish Straż zakładowa which were uniformed security men employed by a particular factory as guards. In Poland after the fall of communism these "worker's millitias" survived for a few years in some large state-owned factories before being replaced by cheaper outsourced security firms. Mieciu K 23:54, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Interesting. Perhaps we should add a section detailing it's use/deployment after the Second World War. I know they turned up in Vietnam, were widely used in the ComBloc countries and still turn up in the Third World. In fact, I recently saw a picture of a Dozo fighter carrying one.

In Soviet Russia there was VOHR (militarized security), an organisation that consisted of militia-type security guards that guarded plants, factories, dams, bridges and other state-owned structures. The VOHR was armed with PPSh's and PPS's. It still exists in Russia, though its numbers diminished and it is being replaced by OVO (security police).Aurora —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.113.32.38 (talk) 17:19, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

German conversion attempts

Quoting from the latest article update:

some sources report, however, that the convertion attempts did not work

This being phrased as it is, it begs the question - what sources? int19h 07:06, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

No sources, this is made up (although it is a frequently-retold bit of "gun store trivia").

The 7.62mm Tokarev round (used by the PPSh) and the 7.63mm Mauser (used by the Germans in WW2) are virtually identical. However, some persons who can't remember the difference between "Mauser" and "Luger" mistakenly formulated the idea that the 7.62mm Tokarev and 7.62 (.30) Luger cartridges are the same- and .30 Luger is just a necked-down 9mm Luger (or vice versa).

They then formulated the idea that it would be easy to convert a .30 Luger to 9mm. This would, of course, be a virtually impossible field modification, since no soldier in the field would have the tools needed to ream the entire bore to 9mm and reconfigure the chamber for the larger-diameter bullet.

Some German soldiers did, indeed, utilize these guns, but they were loaded with 7.63mm Mauser cartridges.

EDIT: I don't intend this to be construed to mean I am refuting the existence of the "MP41(r)" modification- these were indeed used. However, this modification was not a field modification, it was a complete replacement of several primary components, including the barrel, and was completely successful. Roundeyesamurai 15:27, 23 October 2006 (UTC)

Why did they ??

Why did someone delet my article section for popular culture??!! It was perfectly good i was just trying to contribute and it gets deleted?? why and who did this??

It could have been me forgetting to log in; even if not, I would have done it just as well. Here's why: this section does not properly belong to this article - the article is meant to be about the weapon itself and its history, not how it was portrayed in hundreds of Western films. Such lists grow in size way too fast, and their relevance to the subject of the article is rather weak... If you want, you can create a separate article for that, PPSh in popular culture, and link to it from here (see Uzi submachine gun and Uzi in popular culture for a good example of how it works). But cluttering the article on the gun itself with such things is not a good idea.

As to why the section was deleted rather than split - I think this has mainly to do with the fact that it was not of high quality in and of itself (for those who want to have another look - here is the archived version). -- int19h 06:05, 29 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I never knew that, but would it kill people to add to it? I'm just trying to pitch in, plus it said something about "Copyright Issues." - Ace Fighter

The copyright thingy was probably just a stock Wikipedia warning, at least I don't see anything problematic with your edit in that regard. As for adding, personally, I could only add a list of a dozen or so games which had PPSh in them, but I'm just not sure if that would be of much interest. Anyway, if the topic is interesting for you, be bold and go ahead. ;) I've created a stub at PPSh in popular culture for that. -- int19h 06:52, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

BTW, in terms of what whats wrong with the wording of your edit, the problem was mainly that you did not reference the episodes in question (for Futurama, the list is here, for example). -- int19h 06:52, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

As Int19h said, a popular culture reference for this article really just isn't needed. If it's for, say, the PPK and its relevance to James Bond, or for the C96 and its presence in Chinese art and Cold War/World War films, then yes, I think that may be considered relevant as it contributes heavily to the weapon's success or fame. This is not such a case. MVMosin 00:35, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Possible reference

Here's a scan of an oldish article in The Small Arms Review. Dunno if it's helpful: [2]. --Gwern (contribs) 01:33 14 February 2007 (GMT)

Clearing up possible confusion

I just edited the article. In a couple of places in the article, it says that the cartridge used is the "7.62 mm Red Army round." I changed this because calling it a "Red Army round" is a colloquialism at best. I instead listed the proper calibric measure, which is an internal link to the article on the cartridge itself. The confusion that I wanted to clear up is simply that because 7.63 is not as well known as 7.62, and because the cartridge is officially known as 7.62, someone might be inclined to think this was a typo. It was not a typo. The 7.63 x 25 mm is actually 7.63 in measurement, but the name of the cartridge is 7.62 mm. For this reason, I left the "cartridge" name as it is, but added the calibric measure as 7.62. MVMosin 00:35, 27 March 2007 (UTC)

Tommy gun

Any relation ? I thought it was. — maxrspct ping me 21:33, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

Sometimes the PPSh is called "Tommy gun" because the drum magazine make them look similar, but other than that I don't think there's any relation.--Sus scrofa 22:29, 21 July 2007 (UTC)

No, no relation at all. They have, however, been referred to as burp guns, as their high rate of fire produces bursts with a singular sound signature like "braaaaap" rather than "rat-a-tat-tat." Twalls 03:05, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

External videos

While a video or two may be helpful, the external links to videos was starting to get a bit too big. I watched them all and picked the two that looked most informative. Arthurrh 04:05, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

Drum misfeeding

"The drum was a copy of the Finnish M31 Suomi magazine and held 71 rounds, but in practice misfeeding of the spring was likely to occur with more than 65 or so"

The PPSh-41 drum uses a coil spring that can be tightened by a soldier or armourer. It's not easy but I have done it myself so not impossible. I was under the impression that the cause of jamming was more the thin metal sides being prone to getting dented by the rigures of military use and thus getting stuck rounds. Loading instructions —Preceding unsigned comment added by GunpicsBAS (talk • contribs) 21:59, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

"was copied and adopted by the Soviet Union for their PPD-40 and PPSh-41 submachine guns" This is not true, drum magazines for PPSh were made back in the mid-30s and adopted in 1938 as the basis for a submachine gun, that is, before the winter war with Finland" Цйфыву (talk) 22:08, 15 October 2022 (UTC)

References

Bullet Weight

This article lists the weapon's muzzle velocity, but without the bullet weight the muzzle energy and momentum can't be calculated. (The article on 7.62x25mm lists more than one bullet weight, and the velocities on that page are for pistols.) Boris B (talk) 21:39, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Revert of recent edits

Huyphuc1981 nb, you cannot copy text from another website (world.guns.ru - a copyrighted site) and simply paste it into a Wikipedia article, as you did in the last several edits. Furthermore, there are several content and grammar issues that should be addressed before adding such material to an article. For instance, the listing of muzzle velocities of several other SMGs as well as your diatribe against the StG44 is of questionable relevance. There is also quite a bit of editorializing and original research on your part here, none of it with any sources. I am sure you would like to contribute to the article but let's do this in a more careful way. Twalls (talk) 18:50, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

PPSh-41 and PPD-40 are something like a rifle, in wartime. PPSh's muzzle velocity is 488 m/s, Owen submachine gun 420 m/s, Sten submachine gun 365m/s, Welgun 365m/s, Type 100 submachine gun 335 m/s, Thompson submachine gun 280 m/s, Suomi M/31 396m/s, MP3008 350 m/s, M50 Reising submachine gun 280 m/s, MAS-38 350 m/s, M3 submachine gun 280 m/s, MP-40 380 m/s. PPSh-41's effective range is 200m, maximum 500m. At that time, Thompson's effective range is 50m and maximun 150 m, MP40's effective range is 100m. Different in PPSh-41 and rifle are open bolt, rifle is fire in close bolt.

Likely a assault rifle in the future, PPSh-41 was a select-fire weapon. Fire selector switch located inside the trigger-guard, ahead of trigger. The safety was integrated into the charging handle and locked the bolt in forward or rearward position. To decrease the recoil strength, PPSh-41 was fitted with bolt buffer at the rear of receiver. The buffer was made from fiber and was attached to the return spring guide rod. A version PPSh-2 had simplified trigger mechanism allowed only automatic fire.

PPSh-41 are machine pistol second like rifle in wartime. First like is MP44 (Nazi Germany), but, total number of MP44 manufactured during wartime is less than 500000, and MP44 not is one of major infantry weapons of the troops during the World war 2. In addition, MP44 is too heavy (5.2 kg empty). At that time, assault rifle (ex AK and M16), are not yet. For this reason, PPSh-41 are very inportant and very useful.

(restoring Huyphuc1981 nb quote to original position) Twalls (talk) 00:34, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

What your point ???. in StG44:talk, you diatribe against the StG44 is a MP. Your point is the StG44 is a assault rifle. In here, you ask to listing MP44 in MP ????

none of it with any sources ??? Your point again ??? Source in https://en.wikimedia.org . Ex. Sten submachine gun 365m/s, source (365 m/s) was in Sten submachine gun article. My code:

PPSh-41 and PPD-40 are something like a rifle, in wartime. PPSh's muzzle velocity is 488 m/s, Owen submachine gun 420 m/s, Sten submachine gun 365m/s, Welgun 365m/s, Type 100 submachine gun 335 m/s, Thompson submachine gun 280 m/s, Suomi M/31 396m/s, MP3008 350 m/s, M50 Reising submachine gun 280 m/s, MAS-38 350 m/s, M3 submachine gun 280 m/s, MP-40 380 m/s. PPSh-41's effective range is 200m, maximum 500m. At that time, Thompson's effective range is 50m and maximun 150 m, MP40's effective range is 100m. Different in PPSh-41 and rifle are open bolt, rifle is fire in close bolt.

What your point ???, Deutsch called their gun is MP44 (m... pisstol 1944), "your point" called Deutsch gun MP44 is rifle . hi hi hi hi hi hi. really funny.

Huyphuc1981 nb (talk) 20:01, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

My points are quite simple - listing the muzzle velocities of 11 other SMGs adds little to the PPSh41 article, and copying text straight from another website (particularly a copyrighted one) is a violation of Wikipedia:Copyrights. Poorly worded and highly opinionated (known as POV) entries may also be deleted at any time, so I suggest if you want to add text the the article proper and not have it deleted by me or any other editor, please present it on the Talk page first. Twalls (talk) 00:55, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Who is opinionated at any time ??? hi hi hi hi he he he he hi he hi he. really funny. Who show a pistol called rifle. What was "Poorly worded" ??? Only "rifle" in your "My points", pistol and rifle in the same. I take to use 11 famous MP, in order to assure, PPSh-41's muzzle velocity higher than muzzle velocity of another MP. I 11, u one, many or few, ??? Huyphuc1981 nb (talk) 04:58, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

900 rounds/min

Is it 15 rounds/s ? I think it's error.--Dojarca (talk) 20:40, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

Brass fountain

Is the slang term "brass fountain" common or specific enough to redirect here, or sould it be left blank? The reason I'm asking is because, in my opinion, as it refers to the PPSh-41 it should redirect here, like how "Chicago typewriter" redirects to the Thompson, but I don't know if there is a reason it hasn't been done yet. Avianmosquito (talk) 21:13, 18 November 2009 (UTC)

Photos

What is purpose/value of the photo of the confiscated NVA weapons in this article? There's no PPSh-41 in the photo. Any objections to removing it? Thanks. Good Skoda (talk) 18:39, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Well, I saw no objections, so I'll go ahead and remove it Good Skoda (talk) 21:57, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

On second thought, before I do, the photo has a K-50M in it, and the article considers the K-50M a varient of the PPSh-41. Should it, or should it be considered a seperate weapon? All the furniture is different, as are the sites, and the barrel length (and therefore, I assume, the muzzle velocity). It is incapable of using drum magazines. That's a lot of changes. Thoughts? Good Skoda (talk) 22:07, 17 December 2009 (UTC)

External Link Video

The first video says to a PPSh with drum magazine is being fired, but the video actually has the box magazine. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.27.204.114 (talk) 07:55, 17 May 2010 (UTC)

It was later switched to box mostly. I've added that info and why that was done. Someone not using his real name (talk) 07:48, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Suite 101

Suite 101 is not a suitable source by any stretch of the imagination. Most of the text in any given article is taken from the corresponding Wikipedia articles. One soldier is pictured in 2004 carrying a PPSh-41, but that is not noteworthy or justification for saying "The United States Marine Corps currently uses captured (and likely converted to the 9x19mm NATO cartridge) PPSh-41s in Iraq". I will be removing the text again shortly because it consitutes original research combined with an unsuitable source. ROG5728 (talk) 23:03, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

Muzzle blast... what?

Please elaborate:

"While the compensator was moderately successful in this respect, it was achieved at the cost of greatly increased muzzle blast and noise." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.252.191.64 (talk) 16:30, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

I think "muzzle flash" is what is meant with "muzzle blast", changing it.--Sus scrofa (talk) 18:53, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

machining hours

Soviet/Russian sources aren't very consistent about this. Болотин gives 5.6 hours in the table on p. 111 (comparison with PPD), but then 7.3 on p. 119, when he compares it with the PPS. Perhaps the early Soviet estimates turned out wrong when put into mass production. Someone not using his real name (talk) 07:53, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

Korea / Halberstam

Halberstam does not talk specifically about PPSh-41. He just talks about the generic Chinese "burp gun". They had PPS-43 derivatives too. That section probably belongs in another, more general article about the conflict. Someone not using his real name (talk) 10:14, 9 July 2013 (UTC)

External links modified

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Orphaned references in PPSh-41

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of PPSh-41's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "ARES":

• From List of equipment used by separatist forces of the war in Donbass: Ferguson, Jonathan; Jenzen-Jones, N.R. (2014). "Raising Red Flags: An Examination of Arms & Munitions in the Ongoing Conflict in Ukraine. (Research Report No. 3)" (PDF). ARES. Retrieved 4 February 2015.
• From Separatist forces of the war in Donbass: Ferguson, Jonathan; Jenzen-Jones, N.R. (18 November 2014). "ARES Research Report No.3 "Raising Red Flags: An Examination of Arms & Munitions in the Ongoing Conflict in Ukraine"" (PDF). Armament Research Services (ARES). Retrieved 4 February 2015.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 12:22, 17 August 2018 (UTC)

Burp Gun

"during the Second World War, it was sometimes called the "burp gun" by German soldiers, because of its high fire rate." has no references. It is very unlikely that the Germans indeed said "burp gun". A Google search for possible German translations (Rülpsgewehr, Rülpskanone, Rülps-MG,...) doesn't produce results. No doubt, "burp gun" is a word. And it is obviously a nickname for this gun. At least today. Might I suggest to change the sentence to: "It is sometimes called the "burp gun", because of its high fire rate.", if no references are found. I'd like to add that the nickname "burp gun" could be an American invention. As this gun was used by many enemies of the USA during the cold war, it might have originated in several conflicts after WW2. Just for example: North Korea also used this weapon. I don't want to spread myths here, I just want to give hints for finding the origin of that nickname.--TeakHoken2003:ED:172A:AB00:F027:B97F:1D98:7F8C (talk) 15:49, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

Seems I was mistaken, the only usage of the term I've been able to find is either the PPSh in North Korean usage, or the MP40, and in my search I found that burp gun is supposedly a generic term for machine gun, but I have personally never seen burp gun used outside of the context of the PPSh Loafiewa (talk) 17:05, 10 September 2020 (UTC)