Talk:Saracen's Head, London

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A fact from Saracen's Head, London appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 19 October 2020 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that Charles Dickens used the Saracen's Head (plaque pictured) as the place for Nicholas Nickleby's first encounter with the one-eyed schoolmaster Wackford Squeers?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2020/October. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Saracen's Head, London.

Wikipedia

Did you know nomination[edit]

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Cwmhiraeth (talk) 05:34, 14 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(

Comment or view
Article history

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Site of the Saracen's Head Inn

~~... that the Saracen's Head is where Nicholas Nickleby first encountered the one-eyed schoolmaster Wackford Squeers?~~ Source: "Is is here that Wackford Squeers, the dreadful schoolmaster who has but one eye ... is introduced to Nicholas Nickleby" The London Encyclopedia 3rd edition p. 822

Reviewed: In the Presence of Mine Enemies (Playhouse 90)

Created by Ritchie333 (talk) and Whispyhistory (talk). Nominated by Ritchie333 (talk) at 19:03, 23 September 2020 (UTC).[reply]

New enough, long enough, neutrally written, adequately referenced, no close paraphrasing seen. Image is freely licensed. QPQ done.
My only concern is how this hook works vis a vis Rule C6. The novel is mixing fact and fiction, as novels often do, but it seems borderline per DYK rules. I'm wondering if you could mention that the real-life signs and structure of the pub were incorporated into the fictional plot, or something like that? Yoninah (talk) 22:44, 24 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Well, it is talking about fiction but in a non-fiction reference book, which highlights its relevance. Several other blogs talking about the inn also mention the Dickens connection as a cultural reference. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 08:59, 25 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Alt1 ... that the Saracen's Head is where Charles Dickens wrote that Nicholas Nickleby first encountered the one-eyed schoolmaster Wackford Squeers? --evrik ^(talk) 19:20, 28 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

ALT2: ... that Charles Dickens used the Saracen's Head (plaque pictured) as the place for Nicholas Nickleby's first encounter with the one-eyed schoolmaster Wackford Squeers?

Pinging Ritchie333. Yoninah (talk) 19:36, 28 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

ALT3: ... that the Saracen's Head is where Nicholas Nickleby is depicted as first encountering the one-eyed schoolmaster Wackford Squeers? Gatoclass (talk) 23:38, 28 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Yoninah: you need help finishing this? --evrik ^(talk) 19:56, 10 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Evrik: yes, thanks. Yoninah (talk) 20:00, 10 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Approving Alt 2 based on previous review. --evrik ^(talk) 20:18, 10 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Evrik: Thanks! I added "(pictured)". Yoninah (talk) 20:23, 10 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

So, where's the viaduct ? Snow Hill confusion[edit]

Since the Saracen's Head was demolished to make way for the Holborn Viaduct, how come there's no viaduct pictured?

This article needs a map/graphic to show the relationship between where the signage is and where the viaduct is.

Plus, the viaduct article needs to mention the destruction of Saracen's Head as part of the viaduct's construction. 2600:8800:785:2A00:C23F:D5FF:FEC4:D51D (talk) 04:33, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It's not an FA; find a reliable source, be bold and add it in. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 15:29, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The problem is that the inn was not in the viaduct’s footprint, so it did not need to be torn down for its construction. Qwirkle (talk) 15:34, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

See this source or contemporaneous maps. The marker is at the replacement structure, on a slightly different site. Qwirkle (talk) 19:52, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

According to this source, "Saracen's Head, a celebrated tavern .... it was removed in constructing the Holburn Viaduct" Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 15:45, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"In the 18th century, the Mohocks kidnapped several elderly women at the inn, trapped them in barrels, and rolled them downhill towards Newgate Street.[4]" apart from the clear evidence of the photograph it is IMPOSSIBLE to roll a barrel downhill towards Newgate Street as it is Snow Hill which leads from Farringdon Street UPHILL towards Newgate Street. This is true now and was true before the Viaduct was built as a glance at any map of the period will show.92.1.14.246 (talk) 06:30, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

That's what the source says - verbatim "the Saracen's Head (demolished 1868), a popular tavern used by Samuel Pepys and Jonathan Swift, and was where the eighteenth century Mohock gang engaged in their practice of kidnapping elderly woman and placing them in barrels which they rolled down to Newgate Street" - the idea here is that they met women at the pub, assaulted them, stuck them in barrels elsewhere, then rolled those down to Newgate Street. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 15:28, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

IMS, that was a single alleged incident; any source which suggests it was a “practice” is suspect. Qwirkle (talk) 15:34, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

What other source do you have? Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 15:36, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I know it is what the alleged 'source' says that is why I cut and pasterd it - the fact is it is IMPOSSIBLE to roll somebody 'down to Newgate Street' from Snow Hill or anywhere nearby. It cannot be done. I think a Note to that effect should be made to query the 'source'.79.71.164.106 (talk) 21:41, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]