Talk:The First Noel

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This article is written in British English, which has its own spelling conventions (colour, travelled, centre, defence, artefact, analyse) and some terms that are used in it may be different or absent from other varieties of English. According to the relevant style guide, this should not be changed without broad consensus.

On May 2013, it was proposed that this article be moved from The First Nowell to The First Noel. The result of the discussion was moved.

Noel vs Nowell[edit]

The carol is actually "The First Nowell", but please be consistent in using one word or the other. I favour the use of Nowell in this instance. It's an (British) English carol and uses the (British) English spelling.Rockhopper10r 03:38, 28 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

Adding to that, I have consulted my hymnal collection (I am a choir nerd!). Four spell it "Nowell" and two "Noel". Among the "Nowell" hymnals is The Oxford Book of Carols. Surely that is authoratative enough to tip the scales toward "Nowell". The number of Google hits merely means one spelling is more popular than another, not necessarily the more correct one. A lot of people think "it's" is a possessive, but that doesn't make it one.Rockhopper10r 03:48, 28 October 2005 (UTC)[reply]

The New Oxford Book of Carols is a "Nowell" source, and is pretty authoritative. The origins appear to be Cornish 16th-century, which would be "Nowell" for sure, long derived from the original french "Noël". Several sources argue that "Noël" is an error, a modern hypercorrection, and I'm inclined to agree. I've redrafted the article as "Nowell", with "Noël" as the alternative spelling. I've also resynched the lyrics to the NOBOC version (minor orthographic changes). Mooncow 01:12, 11 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This article starts with ""The First Noël" (sometimes "The First Nowell") ..." Since the title of the article is actually "The First Nowell" I believe this should be ""The First Nowell" (Sometimes "The First Noël") ..."

I have never before seen First Nowell -- only Noel or Noël, and so I was pretty suprised to see "First Noel" redirect to this. Even in the Lyrics use Noel (not Nowell). Anyway, I did some checking. Webster's Dictionary ONLY shows Noel and Chambers Dictionary shows both Noel and Nowell. Under Noel or Noël noun, Chambers notes also Nowell. Under Nowell Chambers notes noun Noel. Enquire (talk) 23:36, 6 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Out of curiosity, I searched Google using each of the above spellings, and here are the results (starting with highest number of hits):


Spelling	Google hits
The First Noël	2,480,000
The First Nowel	1,840,000
The First Nowell	1,480,000
The First Noel	1,150,000

Admittedly, this is not terribly scientific, and Google does do some cross indexing of the different spellings. However, it does suggest that The First Noël is the most commonly known name for this carol. Enquire (talk) 04:21, 8 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Noël (or Noel) is French in origin. Nowell is the (British) English spelling. Depending on the period and publisher, carol books pick and choose the spellings. Many carol books printed in the 1940's through 1980's (i.e,. the versions I have read) indicate a French origin for the carol. It appears that many scholars, at least through that time period, believed the carol was French in origin. I have read on recent online sights that the idea of it being a french carol was mistaken due to the spelling of Noël vs. Nowell. These sights did not indicate any source data, so I do not know the validity of the claims. This page indicates Cornish, so it may very well be that the lastest data points to an English source older than the Norman-French border confusion. Does someone know the source data as to why some carol publishers point toward the French, while others point toward the English? If so, putting that information on this page might help clear up any confusion folks like me have when we pull out our old, childhood, Christmas Carol books and read their historical foot notes. Thanks. Tesseract501 16 February, 2009 (UTC) 'Traditional American English spelling is Noel. Nowell is traditional British English spelling. Whenever it says "English spelling" it is referring to British English or England English not necessarily the English language in general. Just thought I would clear that up. Nowell would be the correct way of spelling it, yes, but for American and those that use a non-British English dialect would probably be Noel. Similar concept as guillotine: 'guil-o-teen' and 'gee-a-teen'.'

I say it should be Noël. That is how everyone knows and recognizes it. I see much more fact in the French origin, and say it is so. I will admit that Nowell might be right... but people know it mainly as Noël. BTW the only book I know that spells it Nowell is my church's hymnal. Master lan (talk) 20:17, 8 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It is of English origin. You don't hear the song sung in France. Neither do the French claim it originated from them (See the French Wikipedia version) --Phillip J (talk) 08:38, 14 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Dictionary.com says Nowell is the archaic spelling. source: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/nowell — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.239.52.174 (talk) 23:53, 22 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I grew-up in the UK, but have lived longer in Canada. As a schoolboy I was in a choir and I am sure that this carol was named 'The First Noël' (with the accented 'ë'). In fact, until visiting this page I had never before seen 'The First Nowell' - so I do not accept that 'Nowell' is the 'British' English spelling. If I check our sister project Wiktionary, I see that 'nowell' is defined as the archaic spelling of noel. Enquire (talk) 23:57, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Parodies[edit]

I don't think the Animaniacs parody needs its own section separate from the other parodies, and I'm not sure that section needs to be so detailed in describing the parody of the lyrics.
The first part of the second parody section makes no sense to me; perhaps it makes more sense to someone familiar with the parody being described. In any case, the sentences about it need editing for clarity.
The "Tool Time" parody should probably be discussed in a separate paragraph.

B7T (talk) 13:44, 19 November 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I fixed this up by creating a subsection in the "Other versions and recordings" section - Antmusic (talk) 01:03, 15 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! But the Family Channel parody (the subject of my second bullet point above) could still use some cleanup. B7T (talk) 15:48, 16 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Different Lyrics for Verses 7, 8, and 9[edit]

I have carol books that show variations for some of the verses. Verse 7: "This Child truly there He was" versus the article's "This Child there born[`e]d was." Does anyone know why the difference? The article may have the more accurate (i.e., more ancient) source? Verse 8: I have "heav'nly" versus "heavenly" and "naught" versus "nought." Does anyone know which comes from the older versions of the verse: heav'nly vs. heavenly; naught vs. nought? Naught (or nought) comes from the Old English "nAwiht" (nA meaing "not", and wiht meaning "thing")? Verse 9: The sources I have do not place a hyphen between resting and place). Is the hyphen from older source text? Thanks. Tesseract501 16 February, 2009 (UTC)

Appearance in the film Brazil[edit]

The First Nowell/Noel appeared in Terry Gilliam's film "Brazil" (1985) twice. Should it be mentioned in the article, possibly under "Other versions and recordings".Avman89 (talk) 05:21, 21 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Name (again)[edit]

While I don't have very strong feelings about which word should be used (see above), one thing I do think looks bad is what we have now: using "Nowell" in the article title, but ignoring the word entirely in the lead. That just looks inconsistent. (For what it's worth, I'm British and looked for "Nowell" first.) 86.141.198.90 (talk) 17:16, 5 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed - I've changed it to Nowell in the first line, to match the title. I would recommend a decision being reached (I'd vote for Nowell - most versions I've seen have spelt it this way), and then all cases being standardised throughout - at the moment the lyrics use Noel; if we're sticking with Nowell they should be changed to that. --82.70.156.254 (talk) 18:42, 13 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Lyrics[edit]

I noticed that the lyrics of the carol were moved from the article to Wikisource. According to this Wikipedia:Lyrics and poetry, there is nothing to say that the lyrics can't appear in the article and I think many people who were actually searching for this article would be expecting to see the lyrics. (If there are wikipedia guidelines that state otherwise, it would be great to note them first, rather than just undoing the change.) JenLouise (talk) 02:41, 25 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

To make it a little more analytical, I've added a textual comparison with a Cornish folk version, which hopefully provides a little more context. (What on earth am I doing editing this on Christmas day?!). Rob (talk) 10:21, 25 December 2010 (UTC)[reply]

angel oder angels?[edit]

? --77.188.140.21 (talk) 18:23, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The article says "the angels say" is the American version, but I'm an American and I don't think I've heard anything besides "the angels did say." Maybe "the angel did say" though. --BDD (talk) 18:59, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move[edit]

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved. :) ·Salvidrim!· ✉ 23:30, 21 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The First Nowell → The First Noel – I have no idea why this title would have lasted so long if not for a misunderstanding of WP:UE. "Nowell" may be the original Anglicization of the French "Noël," but that hardly means "Noel" isn't English. "The First Noel" is the WP:COMMONNAME by a mile (see stats below). You like Ngrams? I've got one of those too! I wouldn't object to The First Noël, though I think the version without diacritics is the most common. BDD (talk) 21:01, 13 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

All of these include the -wikipedia search term.

Search source	"first nowell"	"first noel"
Google	348,000	6,250,000
Google Books	11,000	26,800
Google Scholar	545	1330

Is this title a joke? I reject both the current title as well as the one with the little dots and support the move proposed. Red Slash 21:35, 13 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support move. ♫ Cricket02 (talk) 00:28, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose - sorry, but this is "The First Nowell," that is what is used in serious musical sources, that is what the John Stainer sheet music in the article (jpg) shows. The New Oxford Book of Carols 1992, etc. The search narrower "+ carol" needs to be used in searches also, but I don't doubt that the modernised spelling gets more hits if children's songbooks are included. However a redirect will cover the more pop spellings Noël/Noel. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:26, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Also the search needs to take into account The First Nowel with only one "-l" (see earlier search tabulation above). In ictu oculi (talk) 04:03, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Support - I did not even recognize what this was about from that obscure spelling. Wikipedia uses the common name not "serious musical sources". Secondarywaltz (talk) 13:37, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Strong support. Frankly I had heard of this song, but was utterly ignorant of the "nowell" spelling. It should preferably be moved to "The First Noël", or failing that, "The First Noel". JIP | Talk 18:06, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support; the current title is unrecognizable to the majority of English-speaking readers. Powers ^T 18:43, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Support; To knowingly retain this title and WP:COMMONNAME requires more cognitive dissonance than I, for one, can bear. --B2C 23:31, 14 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

regarding audio sample[edit]

maybe we should convert it from mid to ogg? i could do it but I need some comments regarding it. zlouiemark ^{[ T ] [ C ]} 16:45, 28 November 2014 (UTC)[reply]

author[edit]

who wrote this songAndyg82 (talk) 23:35, 7 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It's a folk song, so although somebody would have written it originally, his/her name have been unrecorded, and the tune and lyrics evolved and adapted by multiple hands or performers. You could argue the most well-known hymn arrangement was by Sir John Stainer, but he didn't write the tune or words. Rob (talk) 08:58, 9 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The First Nowell[edit]

The Hymn Book for the Anglican Church of Canada - Common Praise - 1998 uses the wording 'The First Nowell'. It states that it's a 17th Cent English Melody, which was arranged by John Stainer(1840-1901). I think it's good to keep traditional spellings alive. Especially when we are singing about a 2000+ old event. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 131.137.245.206 (talk) 16:03, 17 December 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I quite agree, in the original English versions and scholarly sources, it's always "Nowell". Unfortunately, it appears American editions and, perhaps more pertinently pop recordings go with the wrong French version. Rob (talk) 18:27, 4 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]