User talk:Cullen328/Archive 6

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Irish Magazine

I think they say it is ok that source Wikipedia:Media_copyright_questions#RSVP._Irish_Magazine Miss Bono [zootalk] 18:06, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Miss Bono, please get opinions on this source at WP:RSN. That is the best place. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 19:08, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
 And waiting for a response. Jim, I hope my email this morning (my time) wasn't annoying. Miss Bono [zootalk] 19:18, 29 July 2013 (UTC)
It didn't pass Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#RSVP_Magazine. Miss Bono [zootalk] 19:55, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

The Barnstar!

Thank you so much for the barnstar Jim. It is awesome. I left some messages for you in my talk page and where we were having a conversation yesterday. Miss Bono [zootalk] 12:50, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Kate Bornstein pronouns etc

Hey, thank you for your message, and I do appreciate what you said and you're right, it did get heated - largely because I couldn't see why people were telling me that accuracy was vandalism - but no matter, I'm sure we can bring this issue into greater level-headedness.

I made regular reference to Justin Vivian Bond's page in which vs pronoun "v" is referenced right at the start of the article and then used throughout, which I thought was a very elegant solution which also introduces knowledge of neutral / queer / alternative pronouns - after all, this is a website seeking to educate and inform - and could be employed on all genderqueer / non-binary etc articles. I personally don't see how using Kate's correct pronouns could be interpreted as "pro-Bornstein" bias. Even Adolf Hitler's page has his name spelled correctly.

I believe it may have been you on the discussion page who suggested that due to the "obscure" nature of the pronouns, Wikipedia's in-the-dark cisgender readership might think that Wikipedia had misspelled something but of course, if that were the prevailing worry, the pages of people such as bell hooks and k.d. lang would be spelled with capital letters where there are none, surely?

Whilst there ARE some genderqueer / non-binary / etc people who in fact have opted out of having any pronouns at all and only use their name, Kate Bornstein doesn't happen to be one of them, and it does feel a bit more cumbersome than a brief and informative "This article uses Kate Bornstein's preferred pronouns: ze / hir" at the beginning of the page, wouldn't you say?

It seems reasonable to consider constructing some sort of template for dealing with non-binary individuals (there are more of us than most people might imagine) - the JVB example seemed prudent, and indeed, even when it comes to non-binary people who still use binary pronouns (such as [[Antony Hegarty], amongst others) it might be a good idea to mention the fact, to help people become a bit more informed about the issue...

That's just my respectful 2 cents.82.22.18.121 (talk) 02:36, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

I appreciate your thoughtful message and will again apologize for the heated responses even though the heat didn't come from me. I just recently posted on Talk:Kate Bornstein where I addressed some of your points.
Although I have a very thick skin and wasn't at all offended myself, I would caution you about remarks such as "in-the-dark, cisgendered readership" as those words might reasonably be construed as rudely dismissive. Many "cisgendered" people are perfectly capable of being open-minded and accepting on such issues. I am a 61 year old straight white male who first met a trangendered person at age 17, and accepted that person with compassion for the pain expressed and without hesitation.
Wikipedia is not a platform for advocacy, and we place a very high priority on the neutral point of view. That doesn't mean that Wikipedians object to advocacy elsewhere. Many of us embrace it elsewhere, but not here.
I happen to be an editor with an interest in biographies of "controversial" people, and especially in maintaining neutrality and accuracy in such articles. So, I work on these biographies, to keep them free of both praise and denunciation. Our stringent policies on biographies of living people apply to every living person, including convicted murderers, charismatic religious leaders, con artists, fanatics, sleazy professional athletes, racists and strange characters of every stripe. We don't promote and we don't denounce. We summarize what reliable sources say.
As Wikipedia has over 4.2 million English articles, experienced editors are unconvinced by the argument that "Article X" did things this way, so this article should do things the same way. Perhaps Article X should be changed, and no one has the time to look at every single comparable article. Instead, we focus on the article at hand. That being said, the article you mentioned does discuss the subject's pronoun preferences, but does not currently use the alternative pronouns in Wikipedia's voice. Similarly, I have no objection to discussing Bornstein's pronoun preferences. I just don't think that there is consensus for using those pronouns in Wikipedia's voice at this time
I know that there are strong opinions on both sides, which is why I advocate the compromise of leaving out the pronouns. We don't write Wikipedia articles in the preferred jargon of the article's subject. This would require saying "Praise be to Allah!" in biographies of devout Muslims and rendering "G-d" in biographies of Orthodox Jews. We would also be obligated to delete our coverage of Masonic ritual, Rorschach tests, the secret doctrines of Scientology and Mormon undergarments. We ignore all such scruples. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 03:28, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

By "in the dark", I did simply mean "ignorant about pronouns, trans* issues, etc" - not all cisgendered people are in the dark about trans* issues, but there are obviously many. I don't mean it insultingly.

There are plenty of words used on Wikipedia, uncontroversially, that the general public does not know and I was sort of under the impression that Wikipedia was there to teach people these words. If I'd never read the word tergiversate or tmesis before and you wrote them, the fact that I might not know what they meant, or might even assume you misspelled something, wouldn't make those words in any way incorrect or inappropriate on a Wikipedia page.

The thing we seem to disagree upon however, is the fact that you do seem to think that using genderqueer pronouns is for some reason a sign of bias in their political affiliation, and that's just not the case. You can argue with me and dislike me and hate me and my opinions as much as you like, but you still should refer to me in doing so as ze / hir and as non-binary rather than male / female because otherwise it'd be incorrect, regardless of how much or how little you support what I do.

I notice that JVB's page has been recently edited to remove all queer pronouns from it. That wasn't the case, last time I read it. That really sucks.

Pronouns are not jargon and I certainly do not advocate deleting coverage of ritual, but that is just it. For you to delete coverage of a Masonic ritual is to deny the READER the ability to "see" such things in action. To delete Ze / Hir or V or Ey / Em or whatever the trans* person in general goes by would deny the READER the ability to "see" the - frankly, really rather innocuous - evolution of language and trans* "lifestyle" in action. It would actively prevent a branch of education from happening.

82.22.18.121 (talk) 10:19, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

The fact that you mention a variety of contradictory proposed new pronouns and acknowledge that some transgendered people who reject binary gender identification avoid use of pronouns completely is an argument in favor of my proposed solution. Wikipedia prose uses standard accepted usage when we write in Wikipedia's neutral voice. It is possible and easy to write standard English language sentences without contentious use of pronouns. We don't use Kate Borntein's preferred usage, or another transgendered person's different and contradictory usage, just as we don't use nonstandard simplified English spellings in the biographies of the several notable spelling reformers who have advanced such schemes that never achieved common usage. We can describe Bornstein's preferences. We can quote reliable sources that use her preferences. But I do not believe that it is appropriate to use Bornstein's preferences (which clearly conflict with the preferences of other activists on this issue) in Wikipedia's voice. That would constitute an implicit endorsement of Bornstein's proposed outcome as opposed to the solutions of those who favor other solutions. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 03:09, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

Peter Hillary Fix

I've sourced the heck out of Peter Hillary's article, organized it better, & generally tidied it up. Go me :-D Do you think it's sufficient to take the unsourced blah blah banner off it? (and how is that done?) TYVM for having a look. ScarletRibbons (talk) 07:59, 30 July 2013 (UTC)

Well done! I removed the tag, which was just the first line of the wikicode. In the future, feel free to do so yourself whenever an issue is resolved. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 15:12, 30 July 2013 (UTC)
TYVM for pulling it down. So it's just a matter of eliminating the very 1st line to do that.....got it :-D ScarletRibbons (talk) 02:25, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
Yes, the big tags that appear at the top of the page are created by wikicode templates placed at the beginning of the wikicode. Some things, like "citation needed", will have wikicode in the body of the article. In any case, any editor is welcome to remove these tags as long as the underlying issue has been resolved. In this specific case, there can be no doubt that you resolved the issue, as you added quite a few excellent sources. Again, I commend you for improving this article. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 02:32, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

My account

Somebody else used my account to go to lot of pages, such as "underwear", "profanity", and "s***". What do I do? (Also, why does Wikipedia have such pages?)Justaguy120 (talk) 22:24, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

I see no edits to those articles from your account. How do you know someone viewed those articles if there is no editing activity? Have you given your password to someone else? If so, your account is compromised and you should read WP:PASSWORD. If you can't secure your account, you should abandon it and start a new one.
Wikipedia has articles about these topics because this encyclopedia is not censored, and these topics are notable. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 02:11, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
I saw the pages had been accessed by looking at my browser history. No, I never gave my password to anyone. No one else has access to my Kindle, so I don't see how it is being done. Sorry about the delay. I hit a rough patch in the road of life.Justaguy120 (talk) 02:41, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
I am not an expert in online account security, and won't ask about your personal situation. But if you have evidence that someone visited various Wikipedia pages using your Kindle, and it was not you, then it seems clear to me that your security has been compromised. I advise you to seek expert help immediately. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 03:56, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
OK, I will. Thanks much. By the way, you and my other friends are free to ask me personal questions, just dont expect an answer.Justaguy120 (talk) 01:08, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
I am completely uninterested in personal details about editors who want to maintain their anonymity. As you probably know, I am open about my real world identity, but my choice isn't the right one for everyone. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 02:09, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

(talk page stalker)... Justaguy120, Not for the right one for me... :P... I don't want people to see me. I am shy... though Cullen has seen me in pictures. Miss Bono [zootalk] 12:20, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Entry with dubious references & sloppy reference layout

Hi, Jim. Apologies for using you as a mentoring service yet again, but I trust your judgement & need some advice as to how to approach this entry on Rus' people with caution.

I've cleaned up a few of the notes to point to permalinks (rather than Danish or Swedish search strings!) & given them appropriate titles. The more I look at them, the less I like any of them. The majority of the article cites dubious secondary references which I'd rather change, full stop. While there are arguments on the talk page shrieking about maintaining an NPOV, the history reads as furious edit warring with a few players pulling the strings... and they can hardly be regarded as disinterested parties.

Before I make further inroads into the substance of the entry, I don't want to clean up other people's sloppy citations which I'm intending to pull anyway. I'd prefer to put up some kind of notice on the article asking that the references be cleaned up and better sources be found. In that way, I stand a better chance of negotiating/collaborating with the zealous contributors still keeping their eagle eyes on it and avoiding edit wars. I've already 'made contact' on the talk page and have no doubts that this is going to be a hairy one. I need to soften the blow before introducing academically respectable sources. Any suggestions? --Iryna Harpy (talk) 04:51, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Hello Iryna Harpy. I apologize in advance for my criticisms, and will try to be gentle. My first suggestion is to approach a talk page discussion assuming good faith of other editors, and also assuming that they will be responsive to reasonable. I see some off-putting phrases, like, "full stop", "If you are confused", "Looks like you are not interested in looking for consensus", and so on. Ymblanter seems to be trying to cooperate with you.
Wikipedia has no standard way of citing references, so what is acceptable to one editor may be seen as "sloppy" to another. Good copy editing includes standardizing and fleshing out references within an article. There is no need to belittle the beginning efforts of good faith editors who may not be as skilled in formatting citations as you or I.
I know nothing about medieval Slavic history. But I encourage you to mention respected academic researchers when you make your assertions: "According to Professor X in her monumental work "History of Rus", there were no successor states, and Professor Y, in the Journal of Rus History, debunked claims to the contrary." If you are discussing adding sources, be prepared to explain why they are the best. If you want to delete sources, explain why they are weak.
Don't assume that other editors must be pushing a nationalistic point of view. Some may be, but not all are. Don't wear a chip on your shoulder. It starts a conversation off on the wrong foot. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 06:16, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
Thanks, Jim. It wasn't actually the relationship building on the talk page I needed assistance with. I've had dealings with Ymblanter on other pages over the last year and a half & he started out by being extremely rude & dismissive towards me... so, as our paths have crossed the bad blood has subsided, but only because I had to start showing him that I'm a pushy bitch & am as obstinate as he is when it comes to backing down. I knew he'd be the only one to respond to my comment as all of the others involved are obsessed with the Normanist & anti-Normanist debate. I know it isn't a nice strategy, but it's proven to be effective with him. I'm also aware that he's willing to compromise (but that was going to be contingent on it looking as if I was prepared to make serious concessions, which I am). Note that it was Ymbtambler who wrote, "Looks like you are not interested in looking for consensus" because of his being a little sulky after our last encounter. Yes, yes, I know I'm a wee bit evil & manipulative: but all for the sake of a better & more neutral article. I know I'll be able to collaborate productively with him. I'm just leaving him on tenderhooks a little longer to soften up until I come back with a, "Yes, I think that's an excellent way to approach it." or something of the ilk.
My real concern is with the actual article as it stands. The lead is only a minor point. If you check the sources in the notes, you'll find that they lead to very basic internet info & aren't related to the higher calibre secondary sources cited as references which must have been used by whoever originally wrote the article. They've been left there (perhaps misleadingly, but I'll allow for benefit of the doubt) to lend credibility, but there are no direct citations from these texts. I know the content of the texts & the article doesn't actually follow any of them anymore (other than Norman Davies text which is taken with a grain of salt in academic circles).
That being said, any suggestions for classifications or other wiki queries which would fit the bill in warning that the sources & content don't match? --Iryna Harpy (talk) 07:25, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Orphans

Thanks for your comment Jim. I think the issue is with articles the subjects of which are not significant enough to have these traces. The song I used in my example is a traditional Swazi song which was recorded by two artists, mixed by a local producer, licensed to two local DJs & appeared on one (or two) compilation albums - none of which seemed to have their own articles. I can cite other examples: a club for an obscure sport in Cornwall, England: it was (quite reasonably) linked to articles for the sport and the English federation of clubs for the sport, but the federation's page didn't have a list of its member clubs (which are probably on the federation's website) and if it did, whoever would keep it up to date as new clubs are born and old ones die?

I can't remember the name of the Swazi song, but if you look at Falmouth Gig club (a gig here means a rowing boat, not a concert) you may see what I mean. To generalise, the result of linking in this way would be circular links, which I understood to be undesirable in information-handling terms.

What I don't understand is why every article needs to be linked to. If it's about something notable (and if it's not, what's it doing here?), users would find it by searching on its name, not via another article. In my second example, if someone had seen the Falmouth Gig club building and was intrigued, they could look it up directly, and would be directed to the article on racing gigs, etc. I can't see tat happening the other way round. Additionally, if one wanted detailed information on Cornish gig racing, one would naturally go to the Federation website (via WP or Google) - WP is surely not intended to be a compendium of everything on the web? Chrismorey (talk) 05:19, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Best practice is to add incoming links whenever possible, and you may be surprised at what you find when you develop the skill of searching for them. But it is not mandatory, and well referenced articles about notable topics do not get deleted just because they are orphans. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 06:29, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Michka Assayas Article on Main Space

I just moved today the article thar TatoodW was working on per her request. We were having a discussion here and I though that maybe you can help. Best! Talk:Michka_Assayas#Per_Miss_Bono_question_re:_what_i_think_this_article_needs Miss Bono [zootalk] 17:49, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Day off

Probably I won't be around tomorrow. My boss gave me the day off because of some recent achievements I had at work, so I will take his word and... I will be walking round the streets of La Habana with my two best friends... I'll check if I see Bono somewhere ;P. See if I can take some pictures for Wikipedia. Miss Bono [zootalk] 20:41, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

Gene Clark, and more

Jim, The Gene Clark article starts out fine and then starts to disintegrate, and I am finding that I cannot add citations without revising it. I also want to add more to the discography, as several albums are missing and have no mention in the article as it is currently written. So, this is going to be a bigger project than I anticipated, but I think it will be a better biography for the extra work. When I finish I want to add a brief article for the Dillard & Clark stub. I also want to write a brief article on Carla Olson (and possibly her band, the Textones) as she has three collaborative albums with Gene Clark and three other well reviewed albums. I also noticed that the articles on Chris Hillman, Roger McGuinn and Michael Clarke have notes that citations are needed. It looks like I can keep busy with musician biographies and albums for quite a while!Mudpuppie (talk) 03:55, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Have no hesitation about repairing and improving a disintegrating article, Mudpuppie. I have truly loved this music since it was released, but have almost no knowledge of the biographies of the key players. Since you have the knowledge and the access to good source material, I think that it is simply wonderful for you to jump into improving this group of articles. As for McGuinn, a Wikipedia friend sent me a link a few days ago to a YouTube video of the Mamas and the Papas performing "Creeque Alley" where they name-drop McGuinn. That turned into an ear worm, so his name(s) has (have) been running through my mind for days. Oh, well. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 04:07, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

EMAIL

Hello, Cullen328. Please check your email; you've got mail!
It may take a few minutes from the time the email is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{You've got mail}} or {{ygm}} template.

Miss Bono [zootalk] 12:12, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

New essay

Hi Cullen-- I wanted to ask if you might take a look at an essay I am working on and let me know what your thoughts are on it. I have a few questions/comments:

  1. Is this essay redundant based on guidelines like WP:AGF and essays like WP:DIVA & Wikipedia:Charitableness?
  2. Do the examples convey the idea well? I have a couple of alternatives I'm considering, but if you have ideas or experiences any based on the idea I am putting forth in the essay, let me know.
  3. While I firmly believe that this is an important concept that has guided my interactions on Wikipedia, and I think it is important to share it with others, I am unsure of what situations this essay might be appropriately used. I sort of get the feeling that this could come off as "holier than thou" when used in many discussions (e.g. akin to linking to WP:CIR in discussion with the non-competent editor).
  4. I really liked how David Foster Wallace illustrated this concept because he did it in a way that wasn't so much moral preaching and more, "if you allow yourself to think on your default setting, which is something I'm guilty of all the time, you'll be miserable." I don't think that comes across well in this essay and it's something I'd like to work on more before bringing out of my sandbox.

Any other comments or thoughts would be appreciated, and you are welcome to make direct changes if you feel so inclined. There's no rush on this one, so if you can't get around to it in the next week or so, that's fine. I, Jethrobot drop me a line (note: not a bot!) 17:24, 6 August 2013 (UTC)

Just as a note, I moved the essay to the mainspace at WP:IMAGINE. I, Jethrobot drop me a line (note: not a bot!) 04:32, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

The Half Barnstar
For your recent teamwork in improving an article via a courteous discussion at the Teahouse. You can find the other half at User talk:Jwyj. – Philosopher Let us reason together. 23:14, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
Thank you very much, Philosopher.

A cup of tea for you!

Dear Cullen328, thank you for your help on my article! Much appreciation, Jwyj (talk) 03:59, 11 August 2013 (UTC)
Thanks Jwyj, and happy to be of assistance. I hope that you will keep contributing to Wikipedia, and please don't hesitate to ask me questions at any time. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 04:15, 11 August 2013 (UTC)

WP: NCIS

I made this today. :) Even the logo and the templates. How do you think :) I used the template for WP:U2 Miss Bono [zootalk] 19:37, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Very nicely done, Miss Bono. I am not familiar with the band. I will try to watch some YouTube videos tonight. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 22:29, 12 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for Vaillancourt Fountain

I happened to be reading your userpage, and noticed the article on the Vaillancourt Fountain, and decided to read it. It is quite well done, and I learned quite a bit about the history of the fountain that I hadn't known. So, thanks! (And I enjoyed the World Book as a child, too.) JesseW, the juggling janitor 06:11, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Why, thank you very much, JesseW. It is rare that someone comments on one of my articles out of the blue, and I really appreciate it. Please allow me to comment on your signature. I am 61 years old now, and when I was in my early 20s, I worked as a hospital janitor in San Francisco for several years. I respect janitorial work. A few years after that, I began mountaineering, and met a group of "juggling peakbaggers". They would climb mountains and then juggle on the summits. Quite a gang! Cullen328 Let's discuss it 06:39, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
That's a wonderful thing to hear of. Thank you. I like to drop unexpected thank you notes on the main authors of well-written articles I come across. Even as I do despair for the overall quality of the Wikimedia projects (see the essays linked on my user page), there is still a vast and growing body of excellent material here, too. JesseW, the juggling janitor 07:28, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) Really sorry for poking my nose but... what does the expression out of the blue mean? Miss Bono [zootalk] 12:40, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

"Out of the blue" means unexpectedly, without anything leading up to it. It is as if something dropped out of the sky. I said that, Miss Bono, because I have never interacted with JesseW before. And you are the editor who motivated me to write Vaillancourt Fountain in the first place. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 14:43, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
So, the lines Love/ Lift me up out of these blues/Won't you tell me something true/ I believe in you have something to do with that idiom? By the way... I am replying at your comment in an email :) Miss Bono [zootalk] 14:47, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
And we have had an article on the phrase: Out of the blue (idiom) since 2011. :-) JesseW, the juggling janitor 04:43, 14 August 2013 (UTC) (I should read before posting -- see next item... JesseW, the juggling janitor 04:43, 14 August 2013 (UTC))

No problem, JesseW. I started a new section because I was editing with a mobile phone, and long threads are awkward to edit that way. By the way, I am mentoring Miss Bono. She lives in Cuba, has very limited internet access, and English is not her native language. So, you will see me explaining American things to her, and helping her improve her English language skills. At this point, I am obligated to say that Miss Bono speaks English vastly better than I speak Spanish. Also, she is a delightful person and a wonderful Wikipedia contributor. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 04:54, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Jim :) It's an honor to work with you :) Miss Bono [zootalk] 12:13, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Out of the blue

See the brief article Out of the blue (idiom). This is unrelated to "the blues" which is a depressed emotional state, and later came to mean a style of music developed by African-Americans. The lyric you quoted is referring to the second meaning since it uses the plural, though the lyricist may have been hinting at the other idiom, when choosing "out". This has been today's English lesson, Miss Bono. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 15:20, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Jim! :) :Oh, blue yeah. Like: Last week I was blue but now I'm not. It meas I was sad but now I am not. Right? Do you recognize the lyrics, don't you? Poor man he is lol. The blue thing reminds me of a song by Aerosmith. Miss Bono [zootalk] 15:35, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Elevation by none other than U2. How surprising! Cullen328 Let's discuss it 23:30, 13 August 2013 (UTC)
You got it... Yay!!! can you believe that I actually dance with that song? By dance I mean jump around my house, and my grandma start yelling at me: Please stop! I can't stand Bono anymore. Everyone in my house hates Bono. My boyfriend is the first lol. But I like him :) Miss Bono [zootalk] 12:12, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

Talkback

Hello, Cullen328. You have new messages at Prabash.A's talk page.
Message added 19:44, 13 August 2013 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Prabash.Akmeemana 19:44, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

No problem, Prabash.A. I hope you had a nice vacation. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 23:23, 13 August 2013 (UTC)

Teahouse talkback: you've got messages!

Hello, Cullen328/Archive 6. Your question has been answered at the Teahouse Q&A board. Feel free to reply there!
Please note that all old questions are archived after 2-3 days of inactivity. Message added by Ad Huikeshoven (talk) 17:59, 14 August 2013 (UTC). (You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{teahouse talkback}} template).

Thanks!

The Working Wikipedian's Barnstar
For your amazing work here, your patience, your willing to help people and for being awesome. Miss Bono [zootalk] 14:47, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
Thank you very much, Miss Bono. Yes, I am a "working man" for sure. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 00:36, 16 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, too!

I just wanted to applaud your efforts to defuse tense situations on Wikipedia. It's hard being a peacemaker, especially when the parties aren't interested in putting aside their attitudes and differences. It's usually a thankless task so I just wanted to say I appreciate it! NewJerseyLiz Let's Talk 18:47, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

I really appreciate your kind remarks, Newjerseyliz. Diplomacy doesn't always work, but is always worth a try. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 01:33, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Request for sources for Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Mashregh News

Hi, you stated there are sources readily available, but searches on Google (web, news, scholar) and JSTOR did not yield anything that actually covered Mashregh News, only things that cite them for a particular news piece. Could you list what these available citations are? Transcendence (talk) 20:14, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

As you requested, I have expanded the article, adding several sources. When independent sources discuss, criticize and analyze a news outlet's reporting, that is evidence of notability. As I noted previously, the likelihood that many more sources are available in Farsi is very high. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 08:09, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

email

I have something that I wanted to talk to you about but would rather not post here in public. I looked for your "email this user" link and it appears to be missing (i looked to the left of your user page which is where I thought i found it before). I do have your email still (i think) as we have exchanged emails in the past. I was wondering if it was still ok for me to communicate with you in that manner since the email this user link is gone? I will search around and if I find it then of course you will already have gotten an email from me. Thank you Cullen. Tattoodwaitress (talk) 16:03, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Of course, you can email me. I haven't disabled the email function so it should be a temporary glitch. Let me know if you don't find it. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 16:35, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
What does glitch mean? Miss Bono [zootalk] 12:21, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
Good morning, Miss Bono. At least good morning my time. I slept in because I am working later in the day today. "Glitch" is a slang word for a minor mistake or obstacle, like a fleeting computer bug or a machine that doesn't work quite right. Or, if you really wanted to get together with three friends and one called to say their car broke down. So, an irritating but relatively minor problem. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 16:22, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
thanks! :) Miss Bono [zootalk] 16:38, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

HEy!

Won't you talk to me anymore? Did I do something wrong? Miss Bono [zootalk] 13:08, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

You haven't done anything wrong at all, and I think I answered one of your questions at the Teahouse late last week. I am always happy to communicate with you. Lots of other people are asking me questions too, and I am also very busy off Wikipedia. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 16:21, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
Oh, I see. Let me know when you are around. I am a little bit lost here and email doesn't work anymore... until September. Something happened with the servers. Miss Bono [zootalk] 16:27, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Your Opinion on Readiness of a Draft

Hi Jim,

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions at the Teahouse. Your answers are always right to the point and very useful. I appreciate that very much.

In one of your responses, you mentioned that submitted articles for review range from "hogwash" (the majority) to very good (very few). I've been working on an article that I'd like to eventually submit for review, located at User:FGuerino/Information technology industry and I'd certainly like to get it as close to the better side of that range as possible, so as not to waste any reviewers' time. I've been following different WP docs like the MoS, the Primer, and other documents to make sure I get it to a good level of maturity but, given this is my first real full article, I'm always wondering about what else I might be missing.

Given your experience, I was wondering if I could please impose on you to kindly take a few minutes, take a quick look at it, and provide me with any issues you ;think I need to correct before submitting it for review. I'm not really in a rush to submit the article so much as I am looking to create a solid list of open issues and corrective actions that I need to continue to work on, in an attempt to improve it for submission at a later date.

However, if you're busy and can't, I understand.

Thanks for any help you can offer.

PS: I read your user page and saw that you live in one of my favorite places in the world. I was out there in March and already miss it terribly. Now, I'm clearly jealous of you!

--My Best, Frank --FGuerino (talk) 14:29, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Hello FGuerino. I skimmed the article, and the first thing that I have to say is that I am not an IT professional so have no topic specific expertise. That being said, I have the usual sort of layman's interest in the field, having owned and used personal computers since 1979. Also, I don't usually work on articles on broad, sweeping topics, as I prefer more clearly defined areas.
I think that you should actively seek out input from editors with IT expertise. Knowing of your personality conflict with one such editor, I encourage you to seek out others. Take a look at the edit histories of other well written articles in the IT field, and reach out to the major contributors who have shown a collaborative attitude on the talk pages. I may make some more specific comments later. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 17:06, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
Hi Jim,
Thanks. Feedback from people who don't have a background in the topic domain can be very useful as such people often see things that others, like me, who are close to the topic might miss. If you do get the chance to review, please know that any help is appreciated, as my primary goal is to find things I can address proactively so as not to waste the time of reviewers, later. I also like and will follow your advice on how to find editors with domain background. As for Eric, I'll probably reach out to him, later, as a courtesy. We'll see how he handles it. Thanks again, Frank --FGuerino (talk) 19:20, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
Please don't take the trouble to "reach out to me as a courtesy". You know full well what I think of your article, and my opinion is unlikely to change until you come to realise the truth of what I've been trying to tell you. Eric Corbett 19:24, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
And do you really have to write every reply as if you're writing a letter? Eric Corbett 19:26, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Re ODD question at the teahouse

Thank you for your response to my "odd" question at the teahouse and confirmation that I was doing the vandal revert properly. I did think that I was supposed to revert to the talk page for concerns if an editor kept reversing the edit. Giving them the opportunity to state there concerns. I did not want to be the subject of an edit war. So can you clarify exactly when would you defer to the articles talk page for a discussion rather than edit war? Would that be if they were not a vandal and if they were inserting information they really thought should be in the article? I was trying to confirm what the number should be and my computer (not computer actually it was the browser) kept crashing when trying to use that edit beta thing, so I got a little flustered too. Trying to answer my own question before I get the answer, haha. Tattoodwaitress (talk) 16:04, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Tattoodwaitress, if you read the policy on edit warring, you will see that reverting indisputable vandalism is not edit warring. If there is a concerted attack by vandals, we can revert as many times as necessary until the vandals are blocked and the article protected by an administrator. The three revert rule applies to good faith edits and legitimate content disputes. No reasonable person could think that Jacksonville had that population.
The mistake some editors make is calling a misguided but good faith edit "vandalism", such as inserting personal opinion or religious/political beliefs into an article. This is not vandalism. Vandalism is a conscious, obvious attempt to damage the encyclopedia by adding completely false information, profanity or gibberish.
Debating malicious vandals just gives them attention they crave. We revert and warn. If it persists, we block and protect. I hope this clarifies things. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 16:39, 19 August 2013 (UTC)
Ah I see thank you, it is not edit warring if with a vandal. I get it now. =) Tattoodwaitress (talk) 16:43, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

Ina Garten

Hi Jim, and thanks for the warm greeting. I'll review the policies you suggested, and perhaps we can discuss an approach that would satisfy all sides and policies. (Yeah, I know, but gotta be optimistic, right?) Cheers, Parker Parkebench (talk) 23:16, 19 August 2013 (UTC)

First, Parkebench, I would ask you to consider the issue of undue weight. How much attention does this matter deserve in a biography that is supposed to reflect a person's entire life and career? Then, let's consider the quality of the sources. Do we have reputable sources reporting on this incident in detail over time, or do we have gossipy sources (and remember that major media organizations have gossip desks) that specialize in covering celebrity trivia and that discussed it fleetingly nearly 2-1/2 years ago? Where is the ongoing coverage in the sort of impeccable sources required to overcome WP:BLP concerns? Then, I would ask you to consider whether this is a matter of something that Ina Garten actually did, or something that Ina Garten didn't do? Should we compile a list of 50 other things that Ina Garten has failed to do, and include that? As far as I know, she's failed to publicly denounce Monsanto or fracking or female genital mutilation or the GOP's alleged campaign of voter suppression. How dare her! Should we mention those failures as well?
In all honesty, I am astounded that people still want to insert this gossipy trivia into this biography after all this time, but perhaps you can help me understand. When you do so, please address the many policy based arguments against inclusion discussed on the lengthy talk page. Thank you. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 03:13, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Help!

I need some help to organize and reword this. Please, please, please... :( Miss Bono [zootalk] 17:08, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

I would like you to paraphrase as much as you can, as a separate section, and then I will go through and reword and copy edit it, OK? Cullen328 Let's discuss it 17:48, 20 August 2013 (UTC)
Ok, I was thinking about to create a scheme that applies to all chapters with period (recording sessions, albums, events, tours, ...), interviews and photos shoots locations and contents (and archives for photos; U2's archive/personal/family archives), popular quotes (used or cited by mass-madia) and/or well known or prize winner photos... can you help with that. I think that if we do that, our work could me more organized.
I will do my best but I get frustrated when I am not able to find the right words for something. That's why I haven't been working so much in that draft. :'( Miss Bono [zootalk] 17:52, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for lending an Ear

The Good Heart Barnstar The Good Heart Barnstar
Thank you Cullen for helping me to grow, lending an ear when I reach out, and helping me to feel good about myself as an editor. Thank you too for the gentle way you point out mistakes. Tattoodwaitress (talk) 17:12, 20 August 2013 (UTC)

Main Space

I've been working in real articles today. I added some info to Walk On and Elevation. Still needs work, I was thinking about working with you. Waht do you say? Miss Bono [zootalk] 19:59, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

Gig

I am having my first gig ever on 31 August at a park, I was invited by a journalist who had asked me to play in his group a year ago. But this time we (my cousin and I) are going to play an acoustic gig. With a few songs I've arrange. Most of them covers and 2 songs written by me. Anyways! I miss you around, I hope everythig is well with you and your family. Miss Bono [zootalk] 13:57, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

That is wonderful news, Miss Bono, and I hope it goes very well for you. I had a difficult work day yesterday, and am hoping for a better day today. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 14:58, 22 August 2013 (UTC)
I am hoping that for you as well. I miss the times when you have time for Wikipedia, but real work comes first.
As for the gig, I don't know if counting it as the first one, I sang this song once in front of nearly 2000 people at my former School. Wonderful! :) Miss Bono [zootalk] 15:55, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Miss Bono [zootalk] 15:55, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/RfC Reviewer permission

You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:WikiProject Articles for creation/RfC Reviewer permission. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 08:56, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

I appreciate the invitation, Kudpung, and I have commented there. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 20:04, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Pearmund Cellars Outcome

Even though it didn't support my efforts, I appreciate your straight forward and logical comment without making it personal. As a newbie I was a little taken aback by how personal some of the comments got.

My goal in this is to build content on the Virginia wine industry. I started with Pearmund Cellars because they are close to where I live and I felt they actually had more press and references than others. However, perhaps I should have started with Chris Pearmund. That would allow me to discuss a couple other wineries and some of the international relationships that take it out of the local press.

Before I go through the work to write another article doomed to deletion because of my inexperience, do you have any other suggestions on how I might better approach this topic of Virginia wine without violating the spirit of Wikipedia?

Thanks again for taking the time to check the references and comment. Hopefully I learned something from the process that I can apply next time.

Thanks. --Jlgorman24 (talk) 22:10, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for your kind words. I think that you now have a better understanding of notability and reliable sources. Perhaps a biography of Chris Pearmund might be a worthwhile effort. Feel free to ask questions at any time, Jlgorman24. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 08:14, 18 August 2013 (UTC)
Thanks. I think I will get some experience adding to existing articles before diving into creating my own again.--Jlgorman24 (talk) 20:44, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
Jlgorman24, if you decide to write Chris Pearmund, I will help, and I assure you, it won't be deleted. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 20:52, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Right-hand info box on Google

So, Cullen, about that infobox on Google, the Oliver Grainger box-- when I search him up-- appears on the right-hand side of the Google search page. How do I get Jason Szwimmer to be like that? 99.242.58.123 (talk) 17:15, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

As I said at the Teahouse, this box that sometimes appears in a Google search is entirely a Google issue.Wikipedia can't help you directly with this. It is certainly an automated process, so take a look at the two people and their online presence to see what the differences may be. Here are my hunches: Google seems to prefer to display a photo. There is a portrait photo readily available of Grainger, but not of Szwimmer. If possible, upload a freely-licensed portrait of Szwimmer to Wikimedia Commons, and add it to the Wikipedia article. Also, Google may be confused by the alternate spellings, as there are other people online with the alternate spelling. Google doesn't want to display information about the wrong person. Perhaps the information could be mentioned lower down.
Most important, the article should be expanded and references added. Google is much more likely to pay attention to a more informative and better referenced article. That will also push the article higher in Google searches for Szwimmer. Righ now, a fan site that Google may see as less reliable tops the Google search. Hope this helps. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 18:30, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

External Link -- clarification

Jim, many thanks for helping. Issues to resolve: Please see link below and the associated notations in red in the footnote section. In the talk section for this article, I have included examples on how to identify/find the facts from citations. Is this what the unknown parameter is looking for??

Secondly, since this is a biography, there may or may not be another external link in English. Could this issue be remained unaddressed? Many thanks.CHHistory (talk) 19:12, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luo_Xian_Xiang

The unknown parameter is completely a Wikicode formatting issue. Recent versions of the software for templates (such as a book citation template) only recognize certain predefined parameters, and they must be spelled and capitalized and formatted properly. For example, there are no recognized formats for "case=" or "origin=". The parameter "volume=" must be lower-case and "Volume=" doesn't work. I have tried to correct the issues with references 11, 13, 15, 17, 23, 32, 34, 37 and 40. Please check all of them, especially 40, where the title was missing. I think I saw what was the title and added it, but I don't read Chinese so I may have made a mistake. If so, I apologize. I hope this helps. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 20:39, 25 August 2013 (UTC)
As for external links, they are optional, and there is no need for them if no good ones are available in English. Don't let that concern you. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 20:54, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Jim, Many thanks for making the corrections, thus removing the words in red. Now the article does not look like it is full of errors :-) Have checked, they are fine! Will keep the coding in mind for the next article attempt. Again, much appreciation for your taking the time to help and to educate. CHHistory (talk) 19:23, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Your edits

Thank you for helping clean up Malafa. I'm puzzled, though, as to why you removed my onesource tag. As far as I can tell, the only "independent" source is his university alumni rag. The stuff from Moffit is obviously under his sphere of influence, let alone his own publications. I don't particularly doubt its authenticity, but if every head of (insert specialty) surgery got this sort of coverage, WP would be rife with competing self-promotion. Oh, wait... LeadSongDog come howl! 14:01, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Hello LeadSongDog. The notability of an academic is judged by a variety of factors described in WP:PROF including calculations of how often their scientific papers are cited by others. This is an accepted tool for assessing notability that does not require the type of significant coverage in independent sources as would be required for a pop culture topic being assessed under WP:GNG. Accordingly, referencing of frequently cited scientific papers and university faculty profiles constitutes multiple sources, in my view. Faculty profiles are subject to much more rigorous fact checking than press releases about pop stars. Every article we have on an operating business or an active entertainer, athlete, politician or author has the potential for self promotion. It is up to editors such as you and I to remove promotionalism from all such articles, as I have tried to do in this case. If consensus is that this surgeon does not meet our notability standards for academics, then the article will be deleted. Otherwise, it will be kept. I do not see lack of sources as the issue we face here. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 15:26, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Emails

Let me know if you receive my emails. Miss Bono [zootalk] 19:55, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes, I did Miss Bono. Please don't be upset. I am working a long way from home and have been driving for three hours. You have done nothing wrong and I will give you help whenever I can. In the mean time, you could do some translation to Spanish. Harry Yount for example? Cullen328 Let's discuss it 20:11, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
I will. But I need to know if everything is going to be as usual (go back to normal) again, someday? Miss Bono [zootalk] 20:15, 26 August 2013 (UTC)
Miss Bono, I have been mentoring you for nearly five months, and I am as committed to our mentorship as on the first day. My goal has always been to help you develop into an independent, capable and competent Wikipedia editor. You are a capable and competent person, but you are also 19 years old and a bit emotional. I understand the challenges that you face. And I will also always be available to assist you with your specific questions and concerns. But I am your mentor, not your research assistant nor your best buddy. I really like you a lot. But the goal here is editing and improving Wikipedia, both English and Spanish (and other languages as well). I have helped you on a number of U2 related articles, and am proud of that. I have no problem with U2 coverage, but my goal is to improve the entire encyclopedia, and I would like help from my friends and collaborators on my areas of interest as well. It would make me proud, for example, if some of the significant articles I have written and expanded would have Spanish translations. I want to bring some of my articles to Good Article status, and also want to write some new articles, but I have barely had time to do more than ponder that recently.
I have a life off Wikipedia, including a wonderful wife who is also my business partner, and a developing Wikipedia editor herself, also willing to assist you. I have two young adult sons, and one is disabled and needs lots of attention. The other is very capable, but also works in our family business, and so needs supervision and mentoring as well. I have friends and extended family. I am the oldest living member of my extended family. I have family issues and friendships to manage. I am fortunate to be pretty healthy for a man of 61, but I have an assortment of minor health issues, one of which bothered me last week. My business is very small and family oriented, and usually runs smoothly. Last week, it didn't run smoothly. By coincidence, I had a variety of crises, major and minor, to deal with. A customer cancelling an appointment at the last minute. Another customer hinting strongly that a job was a "go" and never following through. A deranged potential customer creating havoc. A lost check. A doctor's appointment confirming an ongoing minor but irritating health issue. Behavioral issues with my disabled obsessive-compulsive son. A misunderstanding or communications issue with a dear old friend. In the midst of all of this, I am trying to plan and coordinate a family trip to Hawaii. And trying to keep the family business running instead of collapsing. So, I have had some rough and challenging times recently.
I regret that the time I have to edit Wikipedia with a bit more leisure is also the time when you are off work and not editing. This is a function of time zones and work schedules, and nothing negative on my part or yours. Part of the reason I edit Wikipedia is relaxation and the satisfaction of sharing my knowledge.That is why I enjoy answering questions at the Teahouse at my leisure, and dealing with AfD or BLP issues or questions that pop up on my talk page the same way. No pressure. Accordingly, I encourage you to ask me the sort of questions that don't need a rapid answer. For example, you asked about OTRS at the Teahouse recently. I could have answered that one for you, and I can't help but wonder if other editors, knowing of our mentorship, are also wondering why you ask that question at the Teahouse instead of asking me. Is that I am not a good mentor? Or that I am too slow to answer? Or that I have failed to teach you how to type in WP:OTRS to get the answer yourself? That sort of thing leads me to self-doubt.
I encourage you to focus and prioritize your goals, to develop your team, (not just me), who can help with your research needs, I encourage you to stick with a project until it is complete, even if the work is tough. Or, if you put a project on the back burner, be conscious of that decision, and ready to return to it when the time is right. I have some projects on the back burner myself.
Your email problems have been an impediment to our collaboration. Will this get better in September? If so, I can give you copies of research materials of use in your favorite projects, without copyright concerns. Even more importantly, I can discuss certain things that I don't want every Wikipedia editor (and troll) to see. I want the vast majority of our communications to be visible to all. But some limited number of personal things are best kept semi-private. I will share our email communications with my wife, or any mutually acceptable administrator, or any arbcom member, if anyone ever challenges our relationship. I have nothing to hide, but then again, there are certain things that are best kept semi-private.
All of my talk page stalkers can see this conversation, Laura. That is fine with me. I am very, very sorry that my recent distractions have caused you grief. That was never my intention. Sometimes, when I am stressed out, I go into a "hermit" mode and don't feel able to discuss things very much with the people I care about a lot. I care about you a lot. Please accept my apologies. Cullen328 Let's discuss it 07:17, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for the comment and the explanations. I didn't ask you about OTRS because I knew you were working and solving your personal stuffs, not because you are not a good mentor, because you are the greatest mentor I'd ever had. I am sorry all your personal problems, I didn't mean to cause you stress or put pressure on you. Sorry for being as emotional as I am... you have nothing to apologize for. Sorry. Bye... My email problems probably will be solved next week... or the other. But I feel like I'm giving up, I thought I could help but my Internet problems are a pain in the a*** and... I don't know what to do. Miss Bono [zootalk] 12:12, 27 August 2013 (UTC)
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