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Talk:Statewide opinion_polling_for_the_Democratic_Party_presidential_primaries,_2016#Fix_the_map
– This request has been open for some time and must be reviewed.
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Location of dispute
Users involved
Dispute overview
There were two polls conducted in Washington both within a day of each other. The PPP poll says Clinton has a 33% lead (margin of error: ± 5%) and the Gravis Marketing poll that was taken the next day says she has a 9% lead (margin of error: ± 6%). There is a map on the article that says Clinton's lead in Washington is less than 10%. But I wanted to stripe Washington with two colors to reflect that there is also another poll that says she has a 30-49% lead. The other user thinks that only the most recent poll should be used (even if it was taken the day after the second most recent poll), and striping should only be reserved for ties.
Have you tried to resolve this previously?
We've been discussing it at the article's talk page.
How do you think we can help?
I think we need you guys to weigh in on whether or not striping Washington is appropriate. Also, you guys might be able to find a way we can compromise.
Summary of dispute by Nitroxium
As explained in the talk page, the article for the democratic primaries has been following the same format as the republicans in using the most recent polls for coloring the map. Prcc27 proposes we utilize stripes on the maps to show what he considers to be "conflicting polls." However, stripes in the statewide opinion polls (Repub and democrat) are being used for virtual ties. Beyond this, saying that the two polls are conflicting would be WP:OR as we would be making our on conclusions on what can be interpreted from the polls. What we can do and have done in this case is put a footnote saying that the colors on the map may be slightly innacurate due to margin of error which is an undisputed fact. However, both Washington polls that Prcc27 points out cannot be considered conflicting due to the very same margin of errors.
In the talk page of the article I have provided an example of why we cannot conclude through the polls that they are conflicting without it falling into WP:OR.
"First, you can't compare the results in PPP with the polls for Gravis including Elizabeth Warren. People could very easily switch from Clinton to Warren if she was an option in the primaries and there is absolutely no conflict there. Therefore, we must compare the results of PPP with the Gravis results WITHOUT Warren. In the PPP poll, she has 57% with a margin of error of 5%, meaning it could be a support of 52%. In the Gravis poll, she has a support of 45% with a margin of error of 6%, meaning it could be 51%. Likewise with Sanders, in PPP he has 24% which could be 29% and in Gravis he has 36% which could be 30%. Hence why if there was a change of 1% of support from Clinton to Sanders during the next few days (which is completely plausible), these two polls are not conflicting. I must add, the Gravis poll without Warren still includes De Blasio, which means there doesn't even have to be a 1% change of support in the next days. Clinton could have lost 2% to De Blasio in the Gravis poll. There's many possibilities."
Talk:Statewide opinion_polling_for_the_Democratic_Party_presidential_primaries,_2016#Fix_the_map discussion
@Prcc27 and Nitroxium: I'm seeing extensive talk page discussion and am happy to take this case. I'll do a little more brushing up on the issues before asking a few questions. Thanks much, North of Eden (talk) 18:09, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
- I am going to be working on concluding the English football dispute above, but once that's concluded I will give my full attention to this issue. I plan to put up some substantive comments tomorrow morning in this section. Thanks, North of Eden (talk) 22:03, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
- @Prcc27 and Nitroxium: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the basic issue is whether stripes should indicate conflicting polling results or ties between candidates. In this event, I think it's crucial to look at the Republican primary page and at precedent for this page. The same-sex marriage page may be helpful as a guide, but opinion polling on social issues and candidate polling are pretty different things. North of Eden (talk) 19:04, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
- They are different things, but the issue the same-sex marriage map had is the same one the Democratic map has. I believe one user even said is was "fraud" to leave out conflicting polls on that map. It does take longer for a state to trend a certain way on social issues than opinion of candidates, but it's near impossible for a candidate's lead to change drastically in one day just like it is near impossible for a state to change drastically on social issues (with a few exceptions like President Obama coming out in favor of same-sex marriage) in 1 month. Just because the poll that says Clinton has a 9% lead was taken 1 day after a poll said she has a 33% lead doesn't mean her lead is less than 10%. I don't know if I'd call it "fraud" to leave out stripes for conflicting results, but it's certainly misleading- whether it's on a map for opinion polling on social issues or a map for opinion polling on candidates. It definitely won't hurt the map to provide more information- it would actually help the map. Prcc27 (talk) 20:28, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
- Again, saying they are conflicting polls is WP:OR, you are coming to your own conclusions about the polls. And the reason it's the same map is first of all, because you changed the map we were using before. Second of all, that is a basic map with no coloring on wikimedia that any editor can pick up and start using. You added that due to margin of errors, the colors may not reflect reality completely as a footnote and that is the step we had to take. Anything else would be WP:OR. We are following the format the republicans use. Nitroxium (talk) 03:34, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
- Pardon me, but unfortunately I don't even know what your second and third sentences are referring to.. Nonetheless, I feel like what I said on the article's talk page applies to your statement on here too: "You already explained to me that both polls are accurate with each other within 1%, but that's if and only if Clinton has a 21% lead which the map does not have Washington colored as. And it's not the polls that are conflicting, it's that the map doesn't take into account the margin of error, and quite frankly a footnote isn't enough. If readers see Washington striped with two colors and they see the margin of error footnote- they will be more likely to scroll down to find out why Washington is striped and to find out what those margin of errors for Washington are. Then they will be able to come to the conclusion that Clinton has about a 21% lead (which is pretty much what you concluded from the polls yourself) or they could come to the conclusion that Clinton does in fact have a less than 10% lead because the poll that says so is more recent. Regardless, purposely leaving out information on the map adds WP:UNDUE bias and may be fraudulent." Prcc27 (talk) 04:24, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
- I understand concerns about WP:OR; specifically, we can veer close to WP:SYNTH by comparing poll results. That said, I would encourange all to take a look at WP:What SYNTH is not. It's not considered original research to simply summarize an obvious truth; at least to me, conflicting polls would fall within that category, so long as the statement is free of any opinionated analysis. We still have the issue of how striping ought to be used on the map, and I'm interested in hearing more about that (and any additional discussion about WP:OR and simiilar issues, of course). Thanks, North of Eden (talk) 15:12, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
- Well the current map isn't set up for ties because unlike the GOP map- the Democratic map goes into detail about what percentage a candidate is leading by. If let's say Sanders and Clinton were tied in Vermont it wouldn't make sense to stripe Vermont "Sanders ahead, <10%" and "Clinton ahead, <10%" because neither candidate is ahead- both are tied. Instead, we could simply add a new color for tied states like blue or red. Prcc27 (talk) 03:39, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
- That sounds like an interesting idea; what do you think, User:Nitroxium? One of the nice things is we have more leeway than we would with the Republican page, as there's only two serious contenders, and only one who is experiencing polling variations of the type we're discussing. I'm interested to hear Nitroxium's perspective on this, so I can get a better handle on where we should proceed with our discussion. Thanks, North of Eden (talk) 00:31, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
- The whole basis of this discussion has been that the polls are conflicting and that simply cannot be 100% concluded from the information given. Therefore, any conclusion on them being conflicting would be WP:OR. As shown in the talk page of the article, the two polls are not necessarily conflicting but rather could be within a margin of error (ie. Clinton could have lost two points because of De Blasio in Washington). Therefore, drawing an arbitrary line of mixing two poll results together from two different sources just because they are a few days close to each other does not make sense to me. The poll articles (Both democrat and republican) have been absolutely clear on the fact that the map represents the absolutely most recent poll, despite the color possibly being subject to change due to margin of error or not. There are many intricacies about polls, survey methodology and pollsters to mix them into the same bag arbitrarily. I propose an alternative which is to add a footnote leaving a very clear message about the map representing the absolutely most recent poll and an invitation to scroll down and read the section of each state for further information. Nitroxium (talk) 01:16, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
- Understood. You raise a very good point and I understand your concerns about OR/improper synthesis of information. Given that the polls are only a day apart, do you think that throws a hitch in things? I can see the argument in favor of "no, it doesn't," if we're operating under a strict "recent is the most valid" rule. It sounds like this may be precedent on other pages and, if so, we should probably give it some deference but, at the same time, we shouldn't cling too closely to rules that we neglect the obvious. In this case, I think the day-apart factor is worth considering, but not necessarily the linchpin of the conversation. North of Eden (talk) 01:31, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
- Another solution I may propose is one that User:Prcc27 and I had thought of doing but were unsure if it would be WP:OR. Seeing more clearly WP:What SYNTH is not, I think it may work out and we can settle this conflict once and for all. We had proposed to create our own aggregate of the polls per state, defining our own rules based on what RealClearPolitics.com does, which is make an average of all polls within a timespan of a month. I believe this would be a synthesis that would not go against the rules of Wikipedia and would be closer to what User:Prcc27 considers which is a midpoint between two polls that he considers to be conflicing. In the case of Washington, it would literally be a midpoint between the two polls. Nitroxium (talk) 01:53, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
- I think this would be a good way to resolve the disagreement, and it likely meets WP:CALC, due to the editors' consensus to use it. That said, I would be very cautious about avoiding WP:ORIGINALSYN, as some may have concerns about aggregating polls. I would encourage proposing this on the article talk page or perhaps beginning an RfC on this to determine other editors' feedback. North of Eden (talk) 02:40, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
- I have no problem averaging polls assuming it doesn't violate Wikipedia policy. Using an aggregate from a reliable source seems fine, but making our own aggregate does seem like it would violate WP:ORIGINALSYN. If we don't average the polls I'd say striping for Washington is our best option. Prcc27 (talk) 04:27, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
- If it were to break any Wikipedia rules, I'd go back to my previous alternative proposal of adding an extra footnote. Making them stripes on the map would be just as WP:ORIGINALSYN and WP:OR as aggregates. Nitroxium (talk) 00:00, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
- I have no problem averaging polls assuming it doesn't violate Wikipedia policy. Using an aggregate from a reliable source seems fine, but making our own aggregate does seem like it would violate WP:ORIGINALSYN. If we don't average the polls I'd say striping for Washington is our best option. Prcc27 (talk) 04:27, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
- I think this would be a good way to resolve the disagreement, and it likely meets WP:CALC, due to the editors' consensus to use it. That said, I would be very cautious about avoiding WP:ORIGINALSYN, as some may have concerns about aggregating polls. I would encourage proposing this on the article talk page or perhaps beginning an RfC on this to determine other editors' feedback. North of Eden (talk) 02:40, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
- Another solution I may propose is one that User:Prcc27 and I had thought of doing but were unsure if it would be WP:OR. Seeing more clearly WP:What SYNTH is not, I think it may work out and we can settle this conflict once and for all. We had proposed to create our own aggregate of the polls per state, defining our own rules based on what RealClearPolitics.com does, which is make an average of all polls within a timespan of a month. I believe this would be a synthesis that would not go against the rules of Wikipedia and would be closer to what User:Prcc27 considers which is a midpoint between two polls that he considers to be conflicing. In the case of Washington, it would literally be a midpoint between the two polls. Nitroxium (talk) 01:53, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
- Understood. You raise a very good point and I understand your concerns about OR/improper synthesis of information. Given that the polls are only a day apart, do you think that throws a hitch in things? I can see the argument in favor of "no, it doesn't," if we're operating under a strict "recent is the most valid" rule. It sounds like this may be precedent on other pages and, if so, we should probably give it some deference but, at the same time, we shouldn't cling too closely to rules that we neglect the obvious. In this case, I think the day-apart factor is worth considering, but not necessarily the linchpin of the conversation. North of Eden (talk) 01:31, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
- The whole basis of this discussion has been that the polls are conflicting and that simply cannot be 100% concluded from the information given. Therefore, any conclusion on them being conflicting would be WP:OR. As shown in the talk page of the article, the two polls are not necessarily conflicting but rather could be within a margin of error (ie. Clinton could have lost two points because of De Blasio in Washington). Therefore, drawing an arbitrary line of mixing two poll results together from two different sources just because they are a few days close to each other does not make sense to me. The poll articles (Both democrat and republican) have been absolutely clear on the fact that the map represents the absolutely most recent poll, despite the color possibly being subject to change due to margin of error or not. There are many intricacies about polls, survey methodology and pollsters to mix them into the same bag arbitrarily. I propose an alternative which is to add a footnote leaving a very clear message about the map representing the absolutely most recent poll and an invitation to scroll down and read the section of each state for further information. Nitroxium (talk) 01:16, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
- That sounds like an interesting idea; what do you think, User:Nitroxium? One of the nice things is we have more leeway than we would with the Republican page, as there's only two serious contenders, and only one who is experiencing polling variations of the type we're discussing. I'm interested to hear Nitroxium's perspective on this, so I can get a better handle on where we should proceed with our discussion. Thanks, North of Eden (talk) 00:31, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
- Well the current map isn't set up for ties because unlike the GOP map- the Democratic map goes into detail about what percentage a candidate is leading by. If let's say Sanders and Clinton were tied in Vermont it wouldn't make sense to stripe Vermont "Sanders ahead, <10%" and "Clinton ahead, <10%" because neither candidate is ahead- both are tied. Instead, we could simply add a new color for tied states like blue or red. Prcc27 (talk) 03:39, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
- I understand concerns about WP:OR; specifically, we can veer close to WP:SYNTH by comparing poll results. That said, I would encourange all to take a look at WP:What SYNTH is not. It's not considered original research to simply summarize an obvious truth; at least to me, conflicting polls would fall within that category, so long as the statement is free of any opinionated analysis. We still have the issue of how striping ought to be used on the map, and I'm interested in hearing more about that (and any additional discussion about WP:OR and simiilar issues, of course). Thanks, North of Eden (talk) 15:12, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
- Again, saying they are conflicting polls is WP:OR, you are coming to your own conclusions about the polls. And the reason it's the same map is first of all, because you changed the map we were using before. Second of all, that is a basic map with no coloring on wikimedia that any editor can pick up and start using. You added that due to margin of errors, the colors may not reflect reality completely as a footnote and that is the step we had to take. Anything else would be WP:OR. We are following the format the republicans use. Nitroxium (talk) 03:34, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
- @Prcc27 and Nitroxium: Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think the basic issue is whether stripes should indicate conflicting polling results or ties between candidates. In this event, I think it's crucial to look at the Republican primary page and at precedent for this page. The same-sex marriage page may be helpful as a guide, but opinion polling on social issues and candidate polling are pretty different things. North of Eden (talk) 19:04, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
- I am going to be working on concluding the English football dispute above, but once that's concluded I will give my full attention to this issue. I plan to put up some substantive comments tomorrow morning in this section. Thanks, North of Eden (talk) 22:03, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
- Just as a question to User:Prcc27: is the footnote proposal at all acceptable to you? It's certainly fine if it wouldn't be, but just wondering. North of Eden (talk) 00:20, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
- No because even though technically all the information would be there- the map would be (and currently is) visually misleading! Prcc27 (talk) 01:03, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
- The map would not be misleading as all the information would be there. You are acting as if people look at the map and can't look down several pixels. It is the only solution that doesn't break WP:OR or WP:ORIGINALSYN. I think this is getting to a ridiculous point. Nitroxium (talk) 02:30, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
- I already explained it would be an WP:UNDUE bias for the map to treat one poll like it is more reliable than the other one when they were only taken a day within each other. If you want to get technical it would be WP:OR to say Clinton has a less than 10% lead without the source saying so explicitly using your logic! The map is so unreliable right now, especially since the map doesn't take into account for margin of errors and you only want to account for margin of error when it's close to a tie. I think all of our problems would be solved: Washington, New Hampshire (which has a statistical tie), etc. if we made the map like the GOP map. The percentages on the map aren't doing anyone good and the GOP map doesn't have them. They might have been necessary when Clinton lead in every single state in the country. But now we learned that Sanders had a lead in Vermont all this time, and New Hampshire has a statistical tie. So two states wouldn't be colored green if we got rid of the percentages. And we wouldn't have to worry about what to color Washington! Prcc27 (talk) 02:44, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
- I will repeat myself for the umpteenth time, no poll is being treated as more reliable than another. We are simply showing the absolutely most recent poll and that is as objective as we can get without breaking WP:ORIGINALSYN or WP:OR. The map is reliable as the footnote states that it is not absolutely accurate. You are the only one who has been protesting over the methodology we've used, but many editors have edited the article before and followed through with it without complaint. I did not create the article and did not put the percentages, it was another editor and with good reason. The point is to show more information to the reader, since Clinton has been the commanding leader in the primaries it interests to know by how much. I have had no problem in following through with the methodology currently used unless the race becomes tighter. Nitroxium (talk) 02:58, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
- As North of Eden said, it's not WP:OR if it's an obvious truth. It's obvious that a poll isn't more reliable if it's only more recent by a day! You and I are the only ones who have been talking about changing the map since we colored Vermont for Sanders, thus the map is different when other people edited it because Clinton isn't the only candidate that leads in a state. So having a percentage map might have worked somewhat in the past, but now we have another candidate and it's becoming pointless. And there's nobody else around to weigh in on whether we should get rid of the percentages due to Clinton not leading in every state anymore. It's beyond stupid that when New Hampshire is within the margin of error for a tie you decided to stripe the map and threaten to report me for vandalism if I revert you again. Yet, we don't stripe South Carolina even though when you take the margin of error into account Clinton could either have a >69% lead or a 50%–69%. So how come South Carolina is colored for a >69% lead when the margin of error might suggest otherwise? Why is NH the only state that deserves to be striped to take the margin of error into account? It's inconsistent to only take the margin of error into account sometimes (for statistical ties). Did we use a percentage map for the 2008 democratic primary? Do we use a percentage map for the GOP primary? No. At what point is Clinton's lead no longer "commanding"? Because in April 2007 Clinton lead in every state except for 5 states. Was that a "commanding" lead? If so, then why didn't we use a percentage map in 2007? Prcc27 (talk) 03:33, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
- Also, why do you consider New Hampshire a statistical tie but not Washington..? Washington is within the margin of error of being tied using the most recent poll. Prcc27 (talk) 03:49, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
- I will repeat myself for the umpteenth time, no poll is being treated as more reliable than another. We are simply showing the absolutely most recent poll and that is as objective as we can get without breaking WP:ORIGINALSYN or WP:OR. The map is reliable as the footnote states that it is not absolutely accurate. You are the only one who has been protesting over the methodology we've used, but many editors have edited the article before and followed through with it without complaint. I did not create the article and did not put the percentages, it was another editor and with good reason. The point is to show more information to the reader, since Clinton has been the commanding leader in the primaries it interests to know by how much. I have had no problem in following through with the methodology currently used unless the race becomes tighter. Nitroxium (talk) 02:58, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
- I already explained it would be an WP:UNDUE bias for the map to treat one poll like it is more reliable than the other one when they were only taken a day within each other. If you want to get technical it would be WP:OR to say Clinton has a less than 10% lead without the source saying so explicitly using your logic! The map is so unreliable right now, especially since the map doesn't take into account for margin of errors and you only want to account for margin of error when it's close to a tie. I think all of our problems would be solved: Washington, New Hampshire (which has a statistical tie), etc. if we made the map like the GOP map. The percentages on the map aren't doing anyone good and the GOP map doesn't have them. They might have been necessary when Clinton lead in every single state in the country. But now we learned that Sanders had a lead in Vermont all this time, and New Hampshire has a statistical tie. So two states wouldn't be colored green if we got rid of the percentages. And we wouldn't have to worry about what to color Washington! Prcc27 (talk) 02:44, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
- The map would not be misleading as all the information would be there. You are acting as if people look at the map and can't look down several pixels. It is the only solution that doesn't break WP:OR or WP:ORIGINALSYN. I think this is getting to a ridiculous point. Nitroxium (talk) 02:30, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
- No because even though technically all the information would be there- the map would be (and currently is) visually misleading! Prcc27 (talk) 01:03, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
- @Prcc27 and Nitroxium: As a disclosure, I was notified at my talk page about a potential user conduct issue related to this discussion. Per policy, I can't weigh in on user conduct issues except to refer editors to more appropriate fora, such as WP:AN/I or WP:AN/Edit warring. I have carefully read your postings from earlier today and appreciate the diligence you've put into them. Just as a thought experiment, which may help editors in defusing the current conflict as we proceed, what do each of you think are the other editor's strongest arguments? Essentially, if you were arguing the other editor's point of view, which of his or her arguments might you use or expand on? Sorry if this seems infantile, but I think it may help us make progress here. North of Eden (talk) 22:20, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
- Their strongest argument is that we should follow the format of the GOP map. And for the most part I agree with them. I obviously still think that polls that were taken 1 day before the most recent one shouldn't be disregarded and should be reflected on the map. But if we switched to a map that only had three categories: "Clinton lead" (dark green), "Sanders lead" (dark blue), and "Clinton and Sanders tied" (dark gray or striped green/blue)- the dispute we are having with Washington would disappear since we would just color it as "Clinton lead". Since the GOP map doesn't differentiate by what percentage a candidate is leading by, nor did the 2008 Democratic primary map- even though Clinton had a commanding lead and was leading in every state except for 5- I feel like we should follow those maps' formats and not use percentages. The margin of errors are very problematic because a state could possibly qualify as different colors based on only one single poll when margin of error is accounted for. I still don't understand why NH is striped for margin of error, but SC isn't striped to account for margin of error. But a map without percentages would fix the margin of error problem we are having now. Prcc27 (talk) 00:05, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- Removing percentages would certainly render this dispute moot. But I would imagine the rationale for the percentages is that Clinton is the clear frontrunner, so the issue is generally whether she has a commanding lead or not, as opposed to whether she or Sanders is polling higher in a given state. @Nitroxium: what are your thoughts? North of Eden (talk) 18:13, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- I think that Prccc's point in that the map is not completely accurate is completely right and that is why we need to point that out in a footnote to the readers, as we have done so. I am even proposing going even further and will simply go ahead and add that footnote. However, Prccc is proposing to change completely the format that has been used by myself and many other editors since the creation of the article which had established said format because of the particularity of Clinton's commanding lead. To remove the percentages would be to make the map completely useless to the reader. I think we can work off the basis that the map is not completely accurate and work towards making the reader understand that through a simple footnote, that won't change the entire format that has been until now accepted unanimously, that will solve any issues of innacuracies and that has provided more information. Nitroxium (talk) 19:58, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- "Prccc (sic) is proposing to change completely the format that has been used by myself and many other editors since the creation of the article which had established said format because of the particularity of Clinton's commanding lead." Umm.. the the map's format was not set up that way because of her commanding lead. The reason why the map was set up that way was because when it was first created, she had a lead in every single state in the nation (except Vermont, but it was inaccurately colored in her favor at the time). Now, there are two candidates that are leading in at least 1 state. In August 2007 Clinton had just as much of a commanding lead as she does now in 2015. She had a lead in 29 states compared to her current lead in 27 states. If a map without percentages can be used in 2007 when she had a commanding lead- a map like that can also be used now since Clinton's situation is similar then as it is now! "I think we can work off the basis that the map is not completely accurate and work towards making the reader understand that through a simple footnote". A footnote isn't going to fix the inaccuracies of a map; removing the percentages will. A footnote would pretty much be telling readers "this map is inaccurate! Please read article to find out about conflicting results and margin of errors". And if you truly did support footnotes, you would have left New Hampshire alone and let the margin of error footnote explain things instead of striping it without consensus. If South Carolina ins't striped for margin of error then neither should New Hampshire. Also, as you said yourself- all the information on the map is in the article. If a reader can find out about the percentages by themselves on the GOP article, they can do so on the Democratic article too. Prcc27 (talk) 23:18, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- Including the percentages likely increases the overall accuracy and usefulness of the map, which is a plus. However, it sounds as if the precedent in similar Democratic Party articles, such as the one from 2007, is to use a map without percentages. On another note, I've put some thought into the rule that only the most recent poll is used when determining each state's coloration. Generally, I think this is a very good rule. There needs to be a way to determine the state's coloration without veering into WP:OR, and using the most recent poll is pretty much the only way to do this. That said, as great as this model is, it can cause conflict with verifiability and reliable sourcing policies. Specifically, reliance on the "most-recent" rule may cause us to violate WP:RS by including information which is easily impeachable, as it is contradicted by info from an equally reliable and recent source (i.e. the May 14-17 poll in Washington). So I guess the question now is, how do we get around these obstacles? How do we satisfy both OR and RS policies while retaining consistency and accuracy on the map? North of Eden (talk) 00:51, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- Well a map with percentages may be useful but how the map is currently set up is not accurate. The map doesn't take the margin of error into account unless a state is in the margin of error of a tie because Nitroxium striped NH, but not SC and other states with conflicting results when margin of error is taken into account! I think we all agree that we should be consistent throughout the articles so since neither the GOP nor the Democratic map from 2007 used percentages I think that's a strong reason for getting rid of them. Should we possibly go to another noticeboard to find out how not to violate them i.e. Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard & Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard, or should we only figure things out on this noticeboard? Prcc27 (talk) 01:32, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- The RS noticeboard might be useful; I'm not sure how active the other one is. If you'd like to try that out to vet sources, you are more than welcome to do so. I am happy to keep this discussion open and continue working to resolve the dispute here, perhaps integrating the other processes as well. North of Eden (talk) 03:19, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
Done. North of Eden, if you are confused about what I mean when I say the margin of error is only being taken into account when there is a statistical tie- let me know! Also, I think removing the percentages from the map is getting closer to having consensus; especially since another state was added to the Clinton/Sanders tied column. @Nitroxium:, do you have anything to say to try to refute the points I made above about removing the percentages? Prcc27 (talk) 04:03, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
- The RS noticeboard might be useful; I'm not sure how active the other one is. If you'd like to try that out to vet sources, you are more than welcome to do so. I am happy to keep this discussion open and continue working to resolve the dispute here, perhaps integrating the other processes as well. North of Eden (talk) 03:19, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- Well a map with percentages may be useful but how the map is currently set up is not accurate. The map doesn't take the margin of error into account unless a state is in the margin of error of a tie because Nitroxium striped NH, but not SC and other states with conflicting results when margin of error is taken into account! I think we all agree that we should be consistent throughout the articles so since neither the GOP nor the Democratic map from 2007 used percentages I think that's a strong reason for getting rid of them. Should we possibly go to another noticeboard to find out how not to violate them i.e. Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard & Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard, or should we only figure things out on this noticeboard? Prcc27 (talk) 01:32, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- Including the percentages likely increases the overall accuracy and usefulness of the map, which is a plus. However, it sounds as if the precedent in similar Democratic Party articles, such as the one from 2007, is to use a map without percentages. On another note, I've put some thought into the rule that only the most recent poll is used when determining each state's coloration. Generally, I think this is a very good rule. There needs to be a way to determine the state's coloration without veering into WP:OR, and using the most recent poll is pretty much the only way to do this. That said, as great as this model is, it can cause conflict with verifiability and reliable sourcing policies. Specifically, reliance on the "most-recent" rule may cause us to violate WP:RS by including information which is easily impeachable, as it is contradicted by info from an equally reliable and recent source (i.e. the May 14-17 poll in Washington). So I guess the question now is, how do we get around these obstacles? How do we satisfy both OR and RS policies while retaining consistency and accuracy on the map? North of Eden (talk) 00:51, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
- "Prccc (sic) is proposing to change completely the format that has been used by myself and many other editors since the creation of the article which had established said format because of the particularity of Clinton's commanding lead." Umm.. the the map's format was not set up that way because of her commanding lead. The reason why the map was set up that way was because when it was first created, she had a lead in every single state in the nation (except Vermont, but it was inaccurately colored in her favor at the time). Now, there are two candidates that are leading in at least 1 state. In August 2007 Clinton had just as much of a commanding lead as she does now in 2015. She had a lead in 29 states compared to her current lead in 27 states. If a map without percentages can be used in 2007 when she had a commanding lead- a map like that can also be used now since Clinton's situation is similar then as it is now! "I think we can work off the basis that the map is not completely accurate and work towards making the reader understand that through a simple footnote". A footnote isn't going to fix the inaccuracies of a map; removing the percentages will. A footnote would pretty much be telling readers "this map is inaccurate! Please read article to find out about conflicting results and margin of errors". And if you truly did support footnotes, you would have left New Hampshire alone and let the margin of error footnote explain things instead of striping it without consensus. If South Carolina ins't striped for margin of error then neither should New Hampshire. Also, as you said yourself- all the information on the map is in the article. If a reader can find out about the percentages by themselves on the GOP article, they can do so on the Democratic article too. Prcc27 (talk) 23:18, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- I think that Prccc's point in that the map is not completely accurate is completely right and that is why we need to point that out in a footnote to the readers, as we have done so. I am even proposing going even further and will simply go ahead and add that footnote. However, Prccc is proposing to change completely the format that has been used by myself and many other editors since the creation of the article which had established said format because of the particularity of Clinton's commanding lead. To remove the percentages would be to make the map completely useless to the reader. I think we can work off the basis that the map is not completely accurate and work towards making the reader understand that through a simple footnote, that won't change the entire format that has been until now accepted unanimously, that will solve any issues of innacuracies and that has provided more information. Nitroxium (talk) 19:58, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- Removing percentages would certainly render this dispute moot. But I would imagine the rationale for the percentages is that Clinton is the clear frontrunner, so the issue is generally whether she has a commanding lead or not, as opposed to whether she or Sanders is polling higher in a given state. @Nitroxium: what are your thoughts? North of Eden (talk) 18:13, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- Their strongest argument is that we should follow the format of the GOP map. And for the most part I agree with them. I obviously still think that polls that were taken 1 day before the most recent one shouldn't be disregarded and should be reflected on the map. But if we switched to a map that only had three categories: "Clinton lead" (dark green), "Sanders lead" (dark blue), and "Clinton and Sanders tied" (dark gray or striped green/blue)- the dispute we are having with Washington would disappear since we would just color it as "Clinton lead". Since the GOP map doesn't differentiate by what percentage a candidate is leading by, nor did the 2008 Democratic primary map- even though Clinton had a commanding lead and was leading in every state except for 5- I feel like we should follow those maps' formats and not use percentages. The margin of errors are very problematic because a state could possibly qualify as different colors based on only one single poll when margin of error is accounted for. I still don't understand why NH is striped for margin of error, but SC isn't striped to account for margin of error. But a map without percentages would fix the margin of error problem we are having now. Prcc27 (talk) 00:05, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
- @Prcc27: I think I get what you're saying (by all means correct me if I'm getting it wrong!). Your view, as I understand it, is that margins of error are used when determining which states should be striped as ties. They are not, however, used when determining the state's coloration if it's a Clinton-percentage state? North of Eden (talk) 14:56, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
- I have also given this matter more thought and think that it wouldn't break WP:OR if we put stripes based on the margins of error (ex. Hillary above 50-69 and 69+ at the same time) but only based on the most recent polls. Is that okay with Prcc27? Nitroxium (talk) 22:13, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
- I assume, if accepted by User:Prcc27, this would resolve the dispute at hand? North of Eden (talk) 15:10, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
- If they support striping Washington for both polls then yeah. Not sure if that's what they meant from their comment. While I do prefer striping states to account for margin of error I feel like with all these different shades of green and stripes the map will be too cluttered. Getting rid of the percentages altogether would make the map cleaner and more consistent with other maps. But I will probably propose this on the article's talk page since if Nixtroxium concedes that Washington should be striped- the dispute is resolved. Prcc27 (talk) 12:16, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
- That sounds excellent, but I'd like the striping resolution to be confirmed by Nitroxium before this is closed. Thanks, North of Eden (talk) 00:18, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
- Just to be clear, Washington would be triple striped to account for the margin of error for both polls (which isn't very desirable for me), but at least both polls would be included. Prcc27 (talk) 00:55, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
- As we have discussed at length before, using both polls would be WP:OR and WP:ORIGINALSYN. I am saying to use the most recent polls with margin of error included and to add a footnote clarifying that they are the utmost recent poll. Nitroxium (talk) 01:31, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
- Well then the dispute is not settled. so far there is no response from the reliable sources noticeboard, but I just commented about this dispute on the original research noticeboard. Prcc27 (talk) 04:52, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
- A user on the reliable sources noticeboard said "this doesn't appear to be a reliability issue so much as it could be a WP:NOTNEWS issue." Any thoughts on how WP:NOTNEWS applies to this dispute..? Prcc27 (talk) 23:02, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
- As we have discussed at length before, using both polls would be WP:OR and WP:ORIGINALSYN. I am saying to use the most recent polls with margin of error included and to add a footnote clarifying that they are the utmost recent poll. Nitroxium (talk) 01:31, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
- Just to be clear, Washington would be triple striped to account for the margin of error for both polls (which isn't very desirable for me), but at least both polls would be included. Prcc27 (talk) 00:55, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
- That sounds excellent, but I'd like the striping resolution to be confirmed by Nitroxium before this is closed. Thanks, North of Eden (talk) 00:18, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
- If they support striping Washington for both polls then yeah. Not sure if that's what they meant from their comment. While I do prefer striping states to account for margin of error I feel like with all these different shades of green and stripes the map will be too cluttered. Getting rid of the percentages altogether would make the map cleaner and more consistent with other maps. But I will probably propose this on the article's talk page since if Nixtroxium concedes that Washington should be striped- the dispute is resolved. Prcc27 (talk) 12:16, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
- I assume, if accepted by User:Prcc27, this would resolve the dispute at hand? North of Eden (talk) 15:10, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
- I have also given this matter more thought and think that it wouldn't break WP:OR if we put stripes based on the margins of error (ex. Hillary above 50-69 and 69+ at the same time) but only based on the most recent polls. Is that okay with Prcc27? Nitroxium (talk) 22:13, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
- @Prcc27: I don't think WP:NOTNEWS applies as much as WP:Recentism, which the editor at the RS noticeboard also mentioned. That said, Nitroxium's point is well made that synthesizing the polls, even just two for Washington, would set a bad precedent involving original synthesis. Ultimately, these are the options I think we've determined:
- 1. Keep the map in its current state.
- 2. Remove percentages from the map altogether; keep using striping to denote margin-of-error issues between candidates.
- 3. Use striping to denote margin-of-error issues for a single candidate, but only using the most recent poll (Nitroxium's recent proposal)
- 4. Use striping to denote conflicting polls for a single candidate (presumably with consideration given to margin-of-error issues)
- Obviously, if folks have alternative ideas, or if you want to clarify these, let me know. Thanks, North of Eden (talk) 01:04, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
- I support #2 and proposed it on the article's talk page since it's separate from the original dispute. Prcc27 (talk) 02:13, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
- Number 3, there's no reason we should sacrifice an opportunity to give more information to the reader just because Prcc does not agree with more information being given to the reader. #3 while giving more information also fixes the issue. Meanwhile, option #2 does not fix the issue and I find it strange for Prcc to support it, since in the case of two polls coming out on the same day (One showing a statistical tie, another showing a clear winner), the dispute wouldn't be resolved at all. I am sensing bias here. Nitroxium (talk) 04:57, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
- @Nitroxium: I am not bias. My support for #2 is entirely separate from what this dispute is about: what we do if two conflicting polls come out on the same day or one or two days within each other. If #2 becomes the new map I would still be in favor of reflecting both polls that come out within a day of each other. But obviously we'd have to change the coloring. If New Hampshire had two polls come out a day within each other- one saying Sanders leads the other saying there's a statistical tie, I would stripe the state dark gray (tie) and blue (Sanders lead). North of Eden, since my proposal to get rid of percentages is separate from the original dispute of what to do when there are conflicting polls- do we have to discuss that proposal on the article's talk page first before bringing the dispute here or are we allowed to have that exclusively discussed here? But I will note that if a user goes on the article's talk page and supports my proposal to get rid of percentages that would most likely mean it has consensus and it wouldn't need to be discussed here. Prcc27 (talk) 05:19, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
- I don't have time to provide full comments right now, but I will later today. In the meantime, it is perfectly fine to discuss the percentages proposal here. Thanks, North of Eden (talk) 13:08, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
- There are now 4 states that aren't solid Clinton support. That's 4 times as many states as when Nitroxium initially said that Clinton's lead was commanding. Now, Clinton's lead can no longer be called "commanding" because there are several states where she is not leading. As they said themselves, all the information is already in the wikipedia article. Since the GOP map doesn't provide all the information i.e. percentages I think the readers on the Democratic article can manage. Prcc27 (talk) 22:45, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
- 4 out of 50 is completely commanding, and proposal #2 shouldn't even be considered since this dispute is about "conflicting polls". #2 does nothing to fix that.Nitroxium (talk) 23:18, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
- @Nitroxium: I think you mean 4 out of 30 since 20 states were not even polled! For the last time, in 2007 Clinton's lead was just as remarkable and there were no percentages on that map. When exactly is Clinton's lead no longer commanding? She is tied in a vital early state and I hardly find that "commanding". North of Eden said we can discuss both issues about the map here. Otherwise, proposal #2 would have consensus since I'm the only one who commented on the article's talk page about it! Prcc27 (talk) 23:28, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
- I'm tired, I'll let North of Eden respond and see his opinion. The fact that it was done in the past doesn't mean we can't improve. I don't see why you see the need to sacrifice being able to offer more information to the reader. #2 doesn't fix the issue of "conflicting polls" at all but it does stop showing as much information to the reader, while #3 solves both issues and doesn't sacrifice anything. Nitroxium (talk) 23:35, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
- @Nitroxium: Well I think we should have the discussion pertaining to #2 on the article's talk page since there are other users involved in the discussion there. The current !vote is 3-2 in my favor and since the discussion isn't exclusively between you and me- we can have that particular discussion on the article's talk page instead of here! Prcc27 (talk) 23:43, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
- This is dispute resolution, I don't know why you're saying to go back to the talk page if the whole reason we came here is to resolve dsiputes in the talk page? Please just allow North of Eden to respond before reverting my edits for the umpteenth time. Nitroxium (talk) 23:46, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
- @Nitroxium: Well I think we should have the discussion pertaining to #2 on the article's talk page since there are other users involved in the discussion there. The current !vote is 3-2 in my favor and since the discussion isn't exclusively between you and me- we can have that particular discussion on the article's talk page instead of here! Prcc27 (talk) 23:43, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
- I'm tired, I'll let North of Eden respond and see his opinion. The fact that it was done in the past doesn't mean we can't improve. I don't see why you see the need to sacrifice being able to offer more information to the reader. #2 doesn't fix the issue of "conflicting polls" at all but it does stop showing as much information to the reader, while #3 solves both issues and doesn't sacrifice anything. Nitroxium (talk) 23:35, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
- @Nitroxium: I think you mean 4 out of 30 since 20 states were not even polled! For the last time, in 2007 Clinton's lead was just as remarkable and there were no percentages on that map. When exactly is Clinton's lead no longer commanding? She is tied in a vital early state and I hardly find that "commanding". North of Eden said we can discuss both issues about the map here. Otherwise, proposal #2 would have consensus since I'm the only one who commented on the article's talk page about it! Prcc27 (talk) 23:28, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
- 4 out of 50 is completely commanding, and proposal #2 shouldn't even be considered since this dispute is about "conflicting polls". #2 does nothing to fix that.Nitroxium (talk) 23:18, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
- There are now 4 states that aren't solid Clinton support. That's 4 times as many states as when Nitroxium initially said that Clinton's lead was commanding. Now, Clinton's lead can no longer be called "commanding" because there are several states where she is not leading. As they said themselves, all the information is already in the wikipedia article. Since the GOP map doesn't provide all the information i.e. percentages I think the readers on the Democratic article can manage. Prcc27 (talk) 22:45, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
- I don't have time to provide full comments right now, but I will later today. In the meantime, it is perfectly fine to discuss the percentages proposal here. Thanks, North of Eden (talk) 13:08, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
- @Nitroxium: I am not bias. My support for #2 is entirely separate from what this dispute is about: what we do if two conflicting polls come out on the same day or one or two days within each other. If #2 becomes the new map I would still be in favor of reflecting both polls that come out within a day of each other. But obviously we'd have to change the coloring. If New Hampshire had two polls come out a day within each other- one saying Sanders leads the other saying there's a statistical tie, I would stripe the state dark gray (tie) and blue (Sanders lead). North of Eden, since my proposal to get rid of percentages is separate from the original dispute of what to do when there are conflicting polls- do we have to discuss that proposal on the article's talk page first before bringing the dispute here or are we allowed to have that exclusively discussed here? But I will note that if a user goes on the article's talk page and supports my proposal to get rid of percentages that would most likely mean it has consensus and it wouldn't need to be discussed here. Prcc27 (talk) 05:19, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
- Number 3, there's no reason we should sacrifice an opportunity to give more information to the reader just because Prcc does not agree with more information being given to the reader. #3 while giving more information also fixes the issue. Meanwhile, option #2 does not fix the issue and I find it strange for Prcc to support it, since in the case of two polls coming out on the same day (One showing a statistical tie, another showing a clear winner), the dispute wouldn't be resolved at all. I am sensing bias here. Nitroxium (talk) 04:57, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
- I support #2 and proposed it on the article's talk page since it's separate from the original dispute. Prcc27 (talk) 02:13, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
@Nitroxium: Fine, but we will have to add the other users that commented on the article's talk page and the Commons talk page about proposal #2 to this dispute resolution. The original dispute is between you and me, but the #2 proposal dispute is between you, me, and 3 other users. I will wait for North of Eden to comment. But on another note, what I reverted you for has nothing to do with either dispute. That particular dispute is about what is considered a statistical tie and what is not. Do we need to have that discussion here too and ping the user to discuss here what they discussed on that matter on the Commons talk page? Prcc27 (talk) 23:53, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
- Note I am traveling today (August 14) and tomorrow (August 15), but I will be able to give my full attention to the discussion tomorrow evening. Sorry for the delay. North of Eden (talk) 11:54, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
- I originally started this dispute resolution because Nitroxium and I were the only ones discussing the issue and neither one of us could agree on what to do. However, since a user just weighed in on the article's talk page in favor of Nitroxium I'm willing to yield and only use the most recent poll when coloring a state (unless someone at the talk page backs me- then I will try to get consensus there). Prcc27 (talk) 05:33, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
- @Prcc27 and Nitroxium: That sounds good. Do we still have an agreement on striping based on margins of error per Nitroxium's earlier suggestion? North of Eden (talk) 23:41, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
- In the past few days, the disputes have been resolved, though the striping for margins of error I now have the opinion of not including them, since some reputable sources indicate that. Nitroxium (talk) 00:09, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
- @Nitroxium: I'm a little confused; what exactly do these sources indicate? That the margins of error shouldn't be noted? North of Eden (talk) 00:59, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
- I fell like the margin of errors should be noted because why would they be given in the first place if they weren't meant to be considered..? Prcc27 (talk) 04:28, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
- There's no risk of WP:OR by striping based on margins of error; in fact, all it would do is make the map more accurate. That said, we can certainly discuss this further. I'm interested to see Nitroxium's views on this. North of Eden (talk) 12:31, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
- I fell like the margin of errors should be noted because why would they be given in the first place if they weren't meant to be considered..? Prcc27 (talk) 04:28, 17 August 2015 (UTC)
- @Prcc27 and Nitroxium: That sounds good. Do we still have an agreement on striping based on margins of error per Nitroxium's earlier suggestion? North of Eden (talk) 23:41, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
- I originally started this dispute resolution because Nitroxium and I were the only ones discussing the issue and neither one of us could agree on what to do. However, since a user just weighed in on the article's talk page in favor of Nitroxium I'm willing to yield and only use the most recent poll when coloring a state (unless someone at the talk page backs me- then I will try to get consensus there). Prcc27 (talk) 05:33, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
User talk:Patalexander
– General close. See comments for reasoning. | This is not a content dispute, just clearly someone that want's to know why an article was speedy deleted. No reason for this to be here, just contact the editors who deleted it. If it was deleted without reason, ask the editors who deleted it why. RMS52 Talk to me 15:14, 31 August 2015 (UTC) |
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2015 Thalys attack
– General close. See comments for reasoning. | Futile, a primary party has chosen, as his/her right, to not participate at this time. See discussion below. I will note that there are no "channels" or prerequisites to filing here except for extensive discussion having occurred on the article talk page and no similar proceeding being under way. But necessity can also mean that a party feels, as would appear to be the case, that the matter may still be worked out through discussion and that's a perfectly acceptable reason, though no reason is needed, to decline participation. This may be refiled yet again, but the filer might want to take a straw poll to see if everyone is willing to participate before doing so. — TransporterMan (TALK) 13:57, 31 August 2015 (UTC) |
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview This article is about a gunman on a train in or near Belgium and France who was disarmed by fellow passengers. During the past several days, there has been a lot of editing of the passenger list. Variations of the passenger list have included, but is not limited to, a list of injured passengers, passengers who were awarded a Legion of Honour and involved passengers who were not, passengers cited by the press (different terminology used). The number of passengers listed have been no more than 8 so it is not a long list. There appears to be a dispute on what are the requirements to be on that list. Have you tried to resolve this previously? talk page discussion How do you think we can help? Help facilitate discussion, bring insight to restricting a list or letting a short list be used. This request was previously submitted but had some technical errors in submission, which have been corrected. Summary of dispute by PincreteI'll keep this brief as I believe this DRN is premature, as no meaningful discussion has taken place on talk. At a point that I believed this DRN to have been closed, I established a section on talk to try to resolve this, that is ongoing. At the same time I left this poston Sandra opposed to terrorism's talk, inviting her to engage in that discussion rather than pursue this DRN, to date she hasn't done so. Proper procedure is for local editors to try to reach consensus, if they cannot to start an RfC, if that doesn't resolve the issue, only then to go to DRN. I'm afraid this looks to me like an inexperienced editor, who knows she doesn't have consensus for her edits who is wasting the DRN's time. Should the matter be taken up by the DRN, I will happily give a more exact account of the issues in the dispute. Pincrete (talk) 13:00, 31 August 2015 (UTC) Since I won't be watching this page, please 'ping' me if my attention is required. Thanks.Pincrete (talk) 13:07, 31 August 2015 (UTC) Summary of dispute by Tough sailor ouchPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by Versus001Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
2015 Thalys train attack discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
@Pincrete: It should not be closed, the editor has done the right thing. There is no consensus, or any sign of fourm shopping. So I will notify everyone at the talk page to come here. As there has been an attempt to solve this, but there was no consensus or any sign of communication after a while. Editors are still arguing about the requirements so it should be solved here. RMS52 Talk to me 13:15, 31 August 2015 (UTC) DRN Coordinator's note and conditional 24-hour closing notice: I'm going to ask Pincrete to either agree or decline to fully participate here (i.e. not just to participate if pinged). You're a primary party to this dispute and this case needs to be closed as being futile if you do not choose to participate. And if you do not care to do so, that's your right: Participation in moderated content dispute resolution is always voluntary and never mandatory. If you've not agreed to participate fully by 14:00 UTC on September 1, 2015, I or another DRN volunteer will close this case as futile. Regards, TransporterMan (TALK) 13:36, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
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Talk:2015 ICC_World_Twenty20_Qualifier
– Closed as failed. See comments for reasoning. | The volunteer handling this case has asked me as the current DRN coordinator to make a closing note. This case has devolved to an unproductive debate between one tenacious editor and the volunteer. The editor has suggested conducting a straw poll. He is, of course, free to attempt that but the proper place for it would be at the article talk page where it will gain the attention of other interested editors, not just those who have been involved here but should remember that polls aid consensus but cannot form consensus. The volunteer feels uncomfortable about suggesting a request for comments because it might delay the development of the article, but an RFC would have the benefit of potentially attracting editors in addition to those who frequent the article and there is no hurry: if they have encyclopedic value, articles such as this are often best written long after the events which they discuss and Wikipedia is not a scoreboard or newspaper, so there's no need to keep articles such as this current on a day by day basis. — TransporterMan (TALK) 13:58, 2 September 2015 (UTC) |
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview In that article some matches has the result status as No Result. These matches were like Warm up, Group A, Group B, Semi finals, finals. Few of the matches called off with some play and some matches has no play (even toss). A match result should be No Result when a match called off due to rain at any time of play is in progress(even when toss has taken), and a match result should be Match abandoned/Match abandoned without a ball bowled when if no toss has taken or not started. It was already discussed at WT:CRIC, and that one has achieved in archive 78 with a title of No result. In that discussion many user told that A match result should be placed as No Result when a match called off due to rain at any time of play is in progress(even when toss has taken), and a match result should be placed as Match abandoned/Match abandoned without a ball bowled when if no toss has taken or not started. However user Lugnuts not accepted and not agree to change the result. Have you tried to resolve this previously? That discussion has archived so again I post that discussion at WT:CRIC and also that Talk page as Result status. How do you think we can help? Please say what is the correct? Summary of dispute by LugnutsPlease keep it brief - fewer than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
No result is the result, IE the result of the match was "No result". That is the correct way to record it. Anything else is recorded in the notes field, which is what that is for. Note that PeeJay made this change after this DRN was started, which I see as being disruptive and pointy. I have no idea why Srinu is banging on and on and on and on and on and on and on about this. Their level of editing is poor to begin with. Maybe he can put that much effort into article space edits, rather than pointless talkpage discussions. Lugnuts Dick Laurent is dead 17:34, 29 August 2015 (UTC) Summary of dispute by PeeJay2K3Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Oh goody, another DRN discussion for me to comment on. Okay, this whole topic is verging on WP:LAME. Basically, I don't know why we're even discussing this when we have a reliable source that states exactly what we should give the result as – ESPNcricinfo. We should display the result exactly as they have there (except perhaps without the "with X balls remaining" bit for limited overs games). – PeeJay 15:43, 29 August 2015 (UTC) Summary of dispute by BlackJackPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by Blackhole78Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Talk:2015 ICC_World_Twenty20_Qualifier discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
First round of statementsModerator's Overview and opinionFrom all these discussions I understand it is the dispute of using the word Abandoned and No Result. Let me first put out my views here. In normal world, both words are used interchangeably. However I'll try to portray their meanings here. If a match is termed abandoned, it could've been abandoned at anytime i.e., before the toss, after the toss, at the middle of the match etc.. So, using the word abandoned could be confusing and should be used with support of another words. For eg., abandoned with a toss, abandoned without a toss etc.. So, abandoned can be used to indicate what happened to the match (or) fate of the match. But result can be used to indicate the outcome of the match. Outcome cannot be abandoned. For eg., if someone asks you the result of the match, you might say, won, lost, tie (or) no result. So, outcome cannot be abandoned, it should be any form of a result. But, abandoned can be used in unison with no result, which enhances the detail and enlightens the reader on why it was a no result. I've done some research and came up with a second to none source (Laws of ODI cricket from ICC website) here. I quote all the instances of no result and abandoned in the article.
Out of all these quotes, the last quote hits the nail on the head. What it states is that, a match could have a result, even if it is abandoned. Now, editors who refute/confirm my statements can comment below within 5 lines on why you do so. Feel free to correct me if I've got something wrong. Properly indent your statements (Or I may). Also, you can reply to other editors' statements (only on content). Please be civil and concise. No personal attacks, comment on the content not on the contributor. Regards—☮JAaron95 Talk 04:27, 30 August 2015 (UTC) Follow on StatementsI read all the above statements, then why should not we use ICC Official site to add Scorecard links instead of ESPNCricinfo.com ? We use ESPN links because that one also followed all the rules and regulations of ICC. We used ESPN as a reliable source to add the score, results and stats. PeeJay told that in his summary as when we have a reliable source that states exactly what we should give the result as – ESPNcricinfo. We should display the result exactly as they have there (except perhaps without the "with X balls remaining" bit for limited overs games). If ESPN false, then why we still use that as reliable source. In our Wiki there was a article named with Result (cricket) and in that article explained clearly what is No result and what is Abandoned. In Abandoned it have when the officials decide to abandon play then the result is termed 'abandoned without a ball being bowled'. If that was also wrong why that one allowed in Wiki since 2004.
I forgot to answer, I am sorry for that. I don't know, but may be ESPN is not much more than ICC, So we can add/change the all scorecards to wiki from ICC Official and result status as there mentioned. I think so many Cricket lovers/Wiki followers more prefer ESPN than ICC. Why? Becasue ESPN is more notable than ICC. Here the all results from ICC for this World T20 Qualifiers. Srinu (Talk | contrib) 13:51, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
Any one can see the Result status place and easy to understood the Abandoned and its condition, but if we placed No result to Abandoned match it will be confuse what is the condition. I had already told that ICC/ESPN follow the rule/Laws of ICC Laws. then why not we use the result from that reliable source. Srinu (Talk | contrib) 16:21, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
Look at this once: No result: means it has play and can't determined the result as per Law. (Taking Toss is starting of the Play) Abandoned: means it had no play as per Law. Then how can You combine the both result as per Law. We use ESPN Scorecards because, they follow as per the ICC Laws and that's nearly to the Law of ICC. We can take and update Won/No result/Tie/Canceled as per that but not Abandoned. What a funny thought is this... Abandoned is also a type of result as per the Laws. Srinu (Talk | contrib) 17:53, 1 September 2015 (UTC) The Umpire follows the ICC Law and declared as Match Abandoned Officially. Srinu (Talk | contrib) 18:00, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
Final Comment by Moderator
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Talk:Alfred de_Grazia
– General close. See comments for reasoning. | This case has already been declined once. Refiling this same case from an IP address doesn't change the fact that it has already been declined as explained. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:42, 2 September 2015 (UTC) DRN Coordinator's Note: Let me supplement that with this: Moreover, the relief you request is not within the scope of authority of this noticeboard; we do not have it within our authority to either order something to be removed or to order that a photograph be cropped. All editing at Wikipedia is by collaboration and consensus and all that moderated content dispute resolution can do is to try to help parties come to consensus. — TransporterMan (TALK) 17:06, 2 September 2015 (UTC) |
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Talk:Popular Republican_Union_(2007)
– General close. See comments for reasoning. | Going by the dispute summary of the filer, there seems to be a conduct issue. And if so, conduct issues are not resolved here and there are noticeboards like WP:AN/I and WP:3R for that work. As stated by the MedCom Chairperson, since the issue appears to have grounds with French, it is recommended that editors here may get the help/recommendation of editors proficient in French, FoCuSandLeArN in particular (As he appears to have a good knowledge on the dispute). Although there has been extensive discussion, they are mostly scattered and the 'extensiveness' dates back to June. Therefore it is suggested that the dispute be discussed productively in the article's talk page. This issue can be brought here if consensus seems to be unlikely even after extensive discussion. P.S. We do not resolve disputes here based on any other Sister projects. What it appears to be from other project will be taken hold in 'that' project. Disputes in English Wikipedia will and can be solved only in English Wikipedia. Regards—☮JAaron95 Talk 18:38, 2 September 2015 (UTC) |
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Talk:Direct Action_Everywhere#Edit_warring_on_this_page
– General close. See comments for reasoning. | Premature. Like all other moderated content dispute resolution venues at Wikipedia, DRN requires extensive talk page discussion before seeking assistance. While there's been a bit of discussion on the talk page, it's been almost all about conduct, not content. This noticeboard does not handle conduct matters (one of which is whether someone is editing in good faith). I will say a word or two at the article talk page since one issue here is pretty simple. — TransporterMan (TALK) 00:56, 3 September 2015 (UTC) |
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Chris Bell_(politician)
– General close. See comments for reasoning. | Pending in other forum. DRN will not accept cases which are pending in other dispute resolution processes such as RFC. Please wait for the RFC to be closed, typically 30 days. If no resolution is achieved, then you may consider refiling here. — TransporterMan (TALK) 14:07, 3 September 2015 (UTC) |
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Talk:British Pakistanis
Dispute resolved successfully. See comments for reasoning. | Resolved, as all the involved editors agreed to use both the words (British Mirpuri and British Kashmiri) in the article.
What has been agreed upon? To use both the terms in the article with the self definition of the term disclosed in the article's lead (per WP:NPOV). And, if a dispute arises on how many times each word should be used, the source that is used to support the content should be referred to for the relevant wording. Regards—☮JAaron95 Talk 14:12, 3 September 2015 (UTC) |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview There has been continuous discussion regarding issue that what people from Pakistan administered Kashmir living in Britain should be called? Should they be called British Kashmiris or British Mirpuris (Mirpur is city in Azad Kashmir). If we call them British Kashmiris then there is region named Jammu and Kashmir in India also, and people from Indian Kashmir also live in Britain and they also called as British Kashmiris. But when it comes to article British Pakistanis, vague term "Kashmiris" used for Pakistani origin Mirpuri people living in Britain. Using term "Kashmiris" will confuse the readers. As Pakistan claims Indian side of Kashmir as their part then continuosly using broad term "Kashmiri" for Mirpuri people gave arise to possible conflict of interest, and calling Indian Kashmiris in Britain as "British Pakistanis". There has been same kind of discussion earlier also [1], now new discussion has been started. [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:British_Pakistanis#POV_pushing_.28Mirpuris_vs_Kashmiris.29]. As nature of conflict is such that no party will back off from their stand so DR is necessary, page has been protected on my request after brief edit warring. There is standing consensus that "Mirpuris in Britain" should not called as "Kashmiris". Article name of relevant group is British Mirpuris which has been decided after consensus. Moreover, sources provided in article also supports view point that these people should be called as "British Mirpuris" not "British Kashmiris". Have you tried to resolve this previously? We have discussed this issue on talk page. Nature of conflict is such that no one will back off. Here is issue of national agendas of the involved parties. How do you think we can help? You check the sources given in article. You decide wether "Mirpuris" is better term or "Kashmiris". this UK gov document is one of basic source. Read relevant pages 7/9. also telegraph news mentioned in lead. Summary of dispute by Mar4dPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
A person who originates from Kashmir is called a Kashmiri, and this term is not limited only to ethnic Kashmiris from Indian-administered Jammu and Kashmir, but also applies to other groups such as those from Pakistani-administered Azad Kashmir in Pakistan. As per my comments on the article talk page, both the terms 'Mirpuri' and 'Kashmiri' are widely used to refer to the Pakistani Kashmiri community in the UK, and there is no evidence of one term being preferred over another. For example, the UK government source cited above by Human (which was actually added by me in the lead) uses Kashmiri more frequently than Mirpuri. Human3015 claims that using 'Kashmiri' does not disambiguate between those from Indian Kashmir, but this is actually an unfounded rationale as the article is on British Pakistanis (not British Indians), and therefore terms such as 'Kashmiri' or 'Punjabi' would obviously be used for those who originate from Pakistani Kashmir or Pakistani Punjab. Kashmiris or Punjabis are not an ethnic group limited to India, but that is the sort of WP:POV that some nationalist editors on Wikipedia actively pursue. It seems using the term 'Kashmiri' comes across as offensive to some users as Kashmir is a disputed region which India claims as its own, and therefore, from what I understand, some users would like to remove all mentions of that term from the British Pakistanis article. A great number of sources used in British Pakistanis use the term 'Kashmiri', yet Human3015 removed all usage of that term and replaced it with Mirpuri, which is a form of WP:CENSORSHIP. Mirpur is a town in Pakistani Kashmir from where the majority of British Pakistanis originate from, and the term 'Mirpuri' is commonly used from someone who comes from that town; it is just a placename identifier (like New Yorker, Lahori, Londoner etc.). It is not an ethnicity and there is no article on Mirpuri people. People from Mirpur and surrounding regions are Potohari-speaking Kashmiris. The problem with lumping all Pakistani Kashmiris under the term 'Mirpuri' of course is that while a majority come from Mirpur, not all Pakistani Kashmiris are from Mirpur (see British Pakistanis#Kashmiris). Kashmiris is broader and denotes all migrants from Azad Kashmir. We have sources which clearly use 'Kashmiri' to refer to the community, and most importantly, the Mirpuri community identifies itself as Kashmiri very frequently. This unnecessary removal of the term from the entire article, discarding the citations supporting the text and discarding the fact that a 700,000 strong community in the UK is clearly identified by that demonym, is relentless WP:POV pushing. I am yet to come across a single valid argument as to why 'Kashmiri' should be censored from the article despite dozens of sources showing usage of that term, simply because using the term offends the geopolitical sensitivities of one nationalist user. Mar4d (talk) 13:33, 12 August 2015 (UTC) Regarding the title of the article British Mirpuri, I've already stated that this title has imperfections but it is the best we could come up with. Naming the article 'British Mirpuri' was necessary to distinguish the group from non-related Kashmiris from other parts of Kashmir, and because there is no evidence that there are other significant Kashmiri communities in the UK notable to warrant an article, 'British Mirpuri' is the preferable title as it keeps the scope of the article limited to the Pakistani Kashmiri community (which is a large population and meets WP:NOTABILITY). British Pakistani Kashmiri would be an authentic title, but considering the impractical usage, we settled for British Mirpuri. The title of the article is for NPOV disambiguation purposes, and it does not dismiss the validity of the term 'Kashmiri' nor does it promote the validity of the term 'Mirpuri' more than that. In British Pakistanis article, we don't need to restrict ourselves to that disambiguation as the scope of the article is already defined in the title, and therefore any reference to 'Kashmiri' would obviously refer to Azad Kashmir. Moreover, all Mirpuris are from Azad Kashmir but not all (Azad) Kashmiris are from Mirpur, just as not all Punjabis are from Lahore but the vice versa holds true. Mar4d (talk) 13:50, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
Mar4d (talk) 14:13, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by Kautilya3Human3015 is right that the present dispute is a continuation of the issue first raised on the British Mirpuri page. The community that is called British Mirpuris is from the former princely state of Kashmir and Jammu, of which Jammu and Kashmir are two major divisions, both of which are divided across India and Pakistan. The British Mirpuris come from the Mirpur district in the Pakistan-controlled part of the Jammu division. They are not from the Kashmir division and they are not ethnic Kashmiris. A well-meaning RfC [2] to rename the page British Mirpuri to "British Kashmiri" did not achieve consensus. Calling British Mirpuris "Kashmiri" without acknowledgement of all the subtleties is misleading in my opinion. I researched into the issue when the previous RfC happened and discovered that, prior to 1990, the community was called "British Mirpuri" and it has tried to rebrand itself as "British Kashmiri" for political reasons that are unrelated to the well-known Kashmir dispute. The RfC shows my reasoning along with the reliable sources.[1][2] I can provide more if needed. Hence, I suggest that on the British Pakistani page, the community should be normally referred to as "British Mirpuri", but of course their claim to Kashmiri identity should be acknowledged. - Kautilya3 (talk) 13:42, 12 August 2015 (UTC) References
Talk:British Pakistanis discussion
And as per sources widely used term is "Mirpuri". You are not giving any base foe your arguments. See Wikipedia is not democracy. Wikipedia always try to provide information to readers from reliable sources. Wikipedia write what is true according to RS, not according to people's choice. You people are experienced editors, I have no need to tell these things to you, but just for sake of pushing POV these baseless arguments of "People's choice" has been coming forward when we don't even have source for this term 'Kashmiri' is famous in people elsewhere or people in Pakistan.--Human3015Send WikiLove 09:55, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
Section break
Moderator's OverviewLets keep the discussion organised under sections (everything is messed up above). Please keep your comments to the sections allocated for you. Mar4d we'll break the loop ASAP. Please come up with a good reliable source (non-Indian and non-Pakistani source) which explicitly mentions, Mirpuris are (also) known as Kashmiris. We have an unambiguous term Mirpuris, which clearly refers to the people from Azad Kashmir (most of the British Pakistanis are Mirpuris). We shouldn't use the term Kashmiris, unless otherwise Mirpuri people (or) People from Azad Kashmir ethnically came from the Kashmiris. As article Kashmiris lead suggests, which I quote,Government sources maybe faulty in this regard, as they definitely have a COI. Unless we are pushing a POV, the article can clearly distinguish Mirpuri people from Kashmiri people. We must not forget that Kashmiri is an ethnic group of people originating from Kashmir Valley. It's their identity and is not interchangeable. Mirpuris cannot be called Kashmiris just because Azad Kashmir has Kashmir in it. Regards, ☮JAaron95 Talk 10:05, 13 August 2015 (UTC) Comment by Mar4d:@Jaaron95: While I appreciate this attempt for mediation, unfortunately I do not think we are achieving anything meaningful. One reason of course is that all the editors commenting here are involved parties with their own points of view, and there is no third opinion which would have been much more useful. In this regard, perhaps an RfC would have yielded better insight. The discussion here is just going back and forth and I don't think there is a reasonable compromise here. I would like to maintain my stance as elaborated previously, that the case that Mirpuris is the preferred term over Kashmiris is a weak one. If we go simply by the sources, Kashmiri is more frequently used over Mirpuri and the sources in the British Pakistanis article support that, in addition to the ones I have presented above, in addition to Google Books and Scholar results. The point is rather simple, in the United Kingdom, the term "Kashmiri" is prominently and for the majority of cases, used in reference to Azad Kashmir Kashmiris, not Valley Kashmiris (and we have references to support this). Kashmiri also better encapsulates all migrants from Azad Kashmir, similar to how the article designates other geographic groups (Punjabi, Sindhi, Pashtun, Baloch). Mirpuri moreover is not an ethnicity, rather a city demonym (eg. New Yorker, Londoner). The final issue of course is that a great number of citations cited within British Pakistanis use the term Kashmiri, so when we deliberately censor this term from the article to cater to geographic etymology and regional nuances, it comes at the cost of being accurate to sources. It would be better to arrive at some sort of compromise. I am open to the idea of having a summary somewhere in the article along the lines of: "Kashmiris refers to people from Azad Kashmir (not to be confused with Kashmiris from Jammu and Kashmir)".
Comment by Kautilya3:JAaron95, Thanks for the overview. I am quite in agreement with it. Mar4d has stated earlier that we would be violating NPOV by just calling Mirpuris "Mirpuris." It is hard to take such a claim seriously. - Kautilya3 (talk) 14:18, 13 August 2015 (UTC) Comment by Human3015:I'm agree with moderators overview regarding this topic. Indeed term "Kashmiri" is used for and should be used for ethnic "Kashmiri" people of Kashmir valley. I will just summarize my sources.
Comments by Moderator and non-involved editors:Yes, we have a plethora of sources telling Kashmiris are people from Kashmir Valley. But, I don't think there are sources which tells Mirpuris are (also) Kashmiris. Two of the involved editors are agreeing on this and Mar4d, I think you should drop the stick on this. If Mar4d agrees with the fellow editors, this case will be closed as successfully resolved. What do you think Mar4d? Peace? Regards--☮JAaron95 Talk 03:45, 14 August 2015 (UTC)
Comment by Mar4d:@Jaaron95: Thanks for your reply. A few things:
Comment-2 by Human3015:
Comment by Kautilya3:Comments by Moderator and non-involved editors:To Mar4d,
To Mar4d,
Please comment on content rather than the contributor. Regards—☮JAaron95 Talk 04:51, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
References
Comments by Mar4d:Comments by Kautilya3:@JAaron95: Thanks for your excellent analysis and research. The Christopher Snedden book and the Human Rights Watch report are excellent sources. I guess you will have to close the case as having failed, but you can of course state your summary view and recommendation. Whether the disputants will abide by your recommendation or pursue other means of resolution is up to them. Personally, I think it would be a mistake for them not to respect the opinion of a neutral third party moderator. Cheers, Kautilya3 (talk) 09:50, 16 August 2015 (UTC) Comment-3 by Human3015:
Comments by Moderator and non-involved editors:Hello everyone. I was one of the editors who changed the markup on the British Pakistani page from Kashmiris to Kashmiris because it was simply wrong since the article Kashmiris deals with ethnic Kashmiris who are mainly from the Indian state of Jammu and Kashmir. I have gone through all the discussion along with the sources given by all the editors in this regard. All the sources given by moderator JAaron95 except for "Jammu, Kashmir, Ladakh: Ringside Views (https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=QDYhj5IQJrsC&pg=PA56&dq=why+mirpuris+call+themselves+kashmiris&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0CCkQ6AEwAmoVChMIn8O7s8usxwIVzVeOCh3kGQRn#v=onepage&q=why%20mirpuris%20call%20themselves%20kashmiris&f=false)" are reliable as far as the ethnic and regional identity of the the people from Azad Kashmir (in particular Mirpur) is concerned. The reason i mention about this particular source as not being reliable is because i could not help but notice the false information at some places and political motives behind spread of such misinformation. And it is very easy for someone who does not have a close association with the region and has not researched the finer details to overlook such issues. One thing everyone agrees on is that the people in U.K with roots from Azad Kashmir are not the ethnic Kashmiris of the Indian Side. However the people from Azad Kashmir have been self-identifying as Kashmiris in the UK and as many sources cited in the previous discussion say that it is respected by the UK authorities where they are mentioned as Kashmiris many times. I think we need to respect their claim to the identity and it does not harm or misinform anyone if they are mentioned as Kashmiris in the British Pakistanis article with a redirect to the British Mirpuri article. However if you guys go ahead with mentioning them as Mirpuris, then it is important that you know that all people from Azad Kashmir in the UK are not from the Mirpur District, rather there are large numbers of them from the surrounding areas of Azad Kashmir. Therefore some other term or option needs to be used to cover all the people from Azad Kashmir. Regards. Saqiboberoi (talk) 11:18, 16 August 2015 (UTC) Final Comment from Moderator
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Talk:Awans of Pakistan
– General close. See comments for reasoning. | This dispute doesn't seem to have been extensively discussed in the article's talk page. DRN requires that the dispute be discussed extensively on a talk page before it can be moderated here. Please consider the recommendations made here, in case editor(s) fail to discuss the issue. If the issue still remains unresolved after thorough talks, feel free to open another case. Regards—☮JAaron95 Talk 15:28, 7 September 2015 (UTC) |
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Flitfire
– General close. See comments for reasoning. | As stated, this is a conduct dispute, in effect an allegation of page ownership. DRN does not handle matters which are primarily conduct disputes, speak to an administrator or file at AN or ANI for conduct disputes. Even if this had been focused on the content matters in question, however, there's not been sufficient talk page discussion to satisfy DRN's requirement of extensive talk page discussion. And let me remind everyone that discussion about an article should be on the talk page of that article so as to leave a record of it for future editors. — TransporterMan (TALK) 14:16, 8 September 2015 (UTC) |
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