Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/1894–95 New Brompton F.C. season/archive1

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Gog the Mild via FACBot (talk) 16 April 2023 [1].

1894–95 New Brompton F.C. season[edit]

Nominator(s): ChrisTheDude (talk) 22:01, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Following my 21 previous successful nominations of seasons from the history of my beloved Gillingham F.C., I thought I would challenge myself and delve back almost to the beginning of the club's history in the far-off days of the Victorian era. As ever, feedback will be most gratefully received and swiftly acted upon -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 22:01, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Drive by comments[edit]

Steelkamp (talk) 00:25, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Steelkamp: - done -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:17, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The Daily News is still linked to a dab page. It seems it should link to The Daily News (UK). Steelkamp (talk) 08:32, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Steelkamp: - done (someone else got there before me :-)) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:47, 16 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Accessibility review[edit]

The 1st, 3rd, and 4th tables are missing integrated captions and the 5th table is missing row scopes per MOS:DTAB. You can also add alt text to the infobox image using the alt1= parameter. Heartfox (talk) 03:23, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Heartfox: - done :-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 08:36, 22 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support from NØ[edit]

  • "The New Brompton club had been formed in May 1893" => "The New Brompton club was formed in May 1893"
  • "The club was invited to join and allocated a place in Division Two, the lower of the new league's two divisions" => "The club was invited to join and allocated a place in Division Two, the lower one of the new league's two divisions"
  • "Ahead of the new season, New Brompton played a friendly against Barking Swifts" => "Ahead of the new season, New Brompton played a friendly match against Barking Swifts"
  • "having been signed by the club after he impressed in an inter-county match between teams representing Kent and Sussex" => "having been signed by the club after he impressed them in an inter-county match between teams representing Kent and Sussex" -- NØ 13:07, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • @MaranoFan: - all done apart from the second one, which is not how it would ever be expressed in British English -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 13:12, 23 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hi MaranoFan, I was wondering if you felt in a position to either support or oppose this nomination? Obviously, neither is obligatory. Thanks. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:33, 6 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sorry about the confusion. For clarity, I had not gone through the four smaller paragraph-sections towards the end of the article the last time around. Reading through it now, they seem fine to me. Regards.--NØ 13:02, 9 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from Z1720[edit]

Non-expert prose review:

  • "led by chairman H.G. Croneen," should H.G. Croneen be wikilinked? Is this person notable enough to have an article?
    • Definitely not. Absolutely nothing is recorded about him in reliable sources (even his forenames) other than that he was chairman of the New Brompton board in the 1890s, so an article on him would never consist of more than a single sentence -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:59, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and the club also signed Joe Dickenson, formerly of Bolton Wanderers of the Football League First Division.[5][9] Dickenson, who had been born in nearby Chatham,[9] had recently been in the Bolton team which lost to Notts County in the 1894 FA Cup final." This feels repetitive of Dickenson formerly being part of the Wanderers. Perhaps, "and the club also signed Joe Dickenson, a player who was born in nearby Chatham[9] and part of the Bolton Wanderers, which lost to Notts County in the 1894 FA Cup final." or something similar.
  • "Rule's 22 goals made him the team's top scorer; Hutcheson had the second highest total, with 13." This needs a citation.
  • I checked the lede and infobox, and the info there is mentioned in the article.

Please ping when the above are addressed. Z1720 (talk) 23:11, 1 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Z1720: - done :-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:59, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
My comments have been addressed, so I can support. Z1720 (talk) 15:07, 2 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator comment[edit]

More than three weeks in and just the single general support. Unless this nomination makes significant further progress towards a consensus to promote over the next three or four days I am afraid that it is liable to be archived. Gog the Mild (talk) 19:03, 8 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

SC Support[edit]

Gog, if you can hold off until next weekend I’ll be in a position to review then. I’m a bit tied up in RL until then. Hopefully someone else may pop in before that to keep this alive. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 20:33, 8 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Cheers SC, we'll see how stretchy we can be. Enjoy your Easter. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:40, 8 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. Seems like the hard lifting has already been done on this. Delighted to read this one – a team playing for the first ten minutes of a match with no goalie speaks of a team of confidence and panache! - SchroCat (talk) 08:55, 15 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Serial support[edit]

Blimey, I think WHU might've still been the Thames Ironworks FC around this time! Nice and historical. Looking forward to giving this the red card reviewing this ASAP :) SN54129 20:43, 8 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Serial Number 54129 - actually, Thames Ironworks/West Ham hadn't even been founded yet! -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 20:50, 8 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Suggest the first para begins "New Brompton FC was formed..." as this eliminates the repetitive "club". You can link that second usage instead, although not l;inking in the opening sentence is more observed in the breach, etc., I think.
    • Apologies if this is me being thick, but I can't figure out what the proposed change is. "Club" is only used once in the whole of the lead, so isn't really repetitive.....? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 18:59, 9 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "but did not play in any league" - were there any leagues available to them? If not, perhaps clarify that that was why. I.e., you go on to state that the SL was formed a year later.
  • Perhaps worth linking south of England for foreign readers.
  • Is Dickenson's PoB particularly relevant?
    • Just thought it was worth mentioning that, although he had last been playing in far-off Bolton, he was a local lad -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 18:59, 9 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "known as Gillingham since 1912" - not relevant 18 years early.
  • "at the head of the Leagueists." - see MOS:LQ.
    • Apologies for more thickness, but I can't figure out what the proposed change is here either -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 18:59, 9 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "3,000 fans New Brompton were forced to begin..." - missing punctuation?
  • Any idea why the goalie didn't turn up? Classic!
  • In a simar vein, why did Uxbridge only have 10 men?
    • No idea, sorry, but it seems that Victorian footballers had a tendency to be unreliable....... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 18:59, 9 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "an Uxbridge newspaper reporter claimed to have heard " - is there any doubt that he did he it, then?
  • 1912 name change correctly mentioned in 'Aftermath' section  :)
    Nice article Chris; thanks for this, and apologies for the delay! SN54129 16:55, 9 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from KJP1[edit]

Lead
  • "and went on to clinch promotion to Division One" - "clinch" sounds a bit slangy to me. "achieve"/"gain"/"secure"?
  • "played 15 competitive matches, winning 13, drawing none, and losing 2" - I think MoS suggests 0-9 should be words, i.e., "two". There's another, i.e. 4/four in the next sentence.
Background and pre-season
  • "the ostensibly national Football League included only one club not from the midlands and north of the country" - would something like, "included only one club outside of the Midlands and the north" read a little more smoothly? And the links may help readers unfamiliar with English geography.
  • H. G. Croneen - This [2] makes reference to a New Brompton jeweller called Croneen, and this [3] suggests it’s Horace George, with a shop on the High Street and his own silver mark, but I’d agree there’s not enough for a red link, let alone an article. And this, [4] allows you to buy an example of his work! Football medals a speciality. While page 4 of this [5] suggests his descendants were still going in the 1950s. The name/dates fit, but all OR, of course.
    • Thanks, that's interesting stuff I wasn't aware of -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:26, 9 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • "due to the fact that near-neighbours Chatham had already been placed in Division One" - my knowledge of the beautiful game is not extensive!, but I don't understand the causal link. Why should Chatham's placing in Division 1 mean that Gillingham/New Brompton had to be in Division 2? Man U and Man City are very proximate, but they play in the same league. Do the sources explain in any more detail?
  • Unfortunately they don't. All they say is that New Brompton were relatively late applicants for the new league and were effectively told "we already put a club from just down the road into Division One, so you will have to start in Division Two, sorry about that". I can't shed any more light than that..... -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:26, 9 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Southern League
  • Player names - these are sometimes given in full, e.g. David Hutcheson, and sometimes with an initial, e.g. A. Russell. This jars slightly with me, but I'm guessing that is all the sources give you? If possible, I'd prefer the first names in full.
  • The first names listed are the only ones I could find in reliable sources. All the newspaper reports I could find, as was the Victorian way, listed only surnames for players. The various books on the club's history list some forenames, but only the ones I included in the article -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:26, 9 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Image - Two things. Should there be alt text? This might be challenging as the image is unclear. Second, I struggled a bit with the caption. On rereading, I think it is saying that the right hand stand, shown in the 1906 image, had not been built in 1894, the season being described. I wonder if "(as viewed from this angle)" is necessary? Its removal may make the caption a bit clearer.
Tables
  • Keys - Being super picky, there are two tables where the keys appear to contain superfluous material. Test match details has the usual Home/Away/Neutral key, but the only match listed is N. Similarly, FA Cup match details has an H/A key, but both matches listed were H.
Aftermath
  • "In their first season in Division One, the team finished 6th out of 10 clubs in Division One" - Is the second "in Division One" required?
  • "The club, which changed its name to Gillingham in 1912, remained in the division until 1920 when it was incorporated in its entirety into the Football League to form its new Third Division" - the focus of the "it" threw me slightly, "it" being the league, not the club. Would replacing "it" with "the Southern League" work?
Works cited
Infobox
  • What is this image, [6], from Wikiwand? I'm guessing it's not usable, otherwise you'd have used it!

The above is all pretty trivial, and some comments are by way of suggestions which you can, of course, ignore. Overall, it looks to me like a comprehensive summary of the subject, and I'll be pleased to support once you've had a chance to review. KJP1 (talk) 08:47, 9 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • I am familiar with that image, it appears in all the books on the club's history. Unfortunately I had a long chat with image guru Nikkimaria and, as the photographer is unknown and I cannot find concrete proof that it was published in the public domain (as opposed to just sitting in the club's own archives) any earlier than 1980, it can't be proved to be free to use. Which is really bloody annoying as it would obviously be an ideal image to use! -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:26, 9 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@JP1: - many thanks for taking the time to review the article. All points addressed other than as noted above, I think -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:26, 9 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Chris - a pleasure, my rare forays into the world of football are always interesting. As you say, the image is a pity, but not something to stand in the way of my Support. When this makes FA, you should treat yourself to one of Mr Croneen's medals. All the best. KJP1 (talk) 16:56, 9 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments by Wehwalt[edit]

  • "Harry Buckland and Alf Meager made the most appearances, both playing in every match." you could probably do without the "both"
  • I would pipe "shillings" to "shilling (British coin)
  • "A week later, New Brompton defeated Sheppey at home to maintain their record of having won every league game.[2] The Athletic News reported that Sheppey had their goalkeeper to thank for keeping the margin of the defeat down, and noted that Russell, New Brompton's goalkeeper, was "almost a spectator".[22]" Would it be useful to mention the match score?
  • "New Brompton's only defeat of the season came on 9 March when they lost 3–1 at home to Bromley." Should this be qualified somehow, i.e., in the league? They lost twice during the season, after all.
  • It might be mentioned that we're talking about present-day Gillingham in the lead, and possibly also where you mention that 17-nil remains the club's leading score after more than a century.
That's it.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:26, 9 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Wehwalt thank you so much for your review. All done, I think -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:13, 9 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Support Wehwalt (talk) 19:07, 9 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from Eem dik doun in toene[edit]

Image review - pass[edit]

  • Is it possible to provide alt text for the kit image in the infobox? Gog the Mild (talk) 20:13, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Gog the Mild: already done but like a dumbass I typed the parameter wrong. Should be sorted now (hopefully) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 20:20, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
All images are appropriately licenced, positioned, captioned and alt texted. Gog the Mild (talk) 20:22, 10 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Eli support[edit]

time off Wikipedia was needed, but now I'm back and ready. the prose is already very good and engaging; all it needs is some trimming. and 've a FAC of my own if you fancy a QPQ ! ‍ ‍ Elias 🌊 ‍ ‍ 💬 "Will you call me?"
📝 "Will you hang me out to dry?" 04:06, 13 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • comment re. clarity
    • "applied to join the league" readers could interpret it as the Southern League or the national Football League
  • comments re. punctuation
    • some sentences are too long. i'd turn that semicolon to a period
      • "In 1894, New Brompton turned professional and joined the newly-formed Southern League; ..."
      • "Many players from the previous season agreed to professional terms and remained; the club also signed Joe Dickenson ..."
    • "south of England at a time when ..." the sentence where this phrase appears is lengthy to read. add a comma between "england" and "at a time"
    • the reverse of the comma situation is true for "or keeping the margin of the defeat down, and noted that Russell..." I'd remove the comma and change "and noted..." to "It noted..."
    • split "Rule alone scored more goals than the entire team of fourth-placed Uxbridge" into its own sentence
    • "Caversham, near Reading" missing comma after Reading
    • Ditto with "until 1920[,] when the Southern League Division One"
  • comments re. concision
    • "and went on to gain" it already is clear that the sentence presents a chronological order of events
    • "a group of local businessmen" "businessmen" is plural and already implies there is a group
    • "many of the leading clubs"
    • "applied to join the league. The club was invited to join" if they applied and they got in, i think it's best to simply say they got in. "... led by chairman ... joined the [x] league. The club was allocated a place in..."
      • That wouldn't really work, though, because that would leave "Keen to secure a regular schedule of high-quality matches, the New Brompton committee, led by chairman H.G. Croneen, joined the new league", and it wasn't the committee that joined the league -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:32, 13 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • "lower of the new league's"
    • "due to the fact that near-neighbours Chatham had already been placed in Division One" -> "because near-neighbours Chatham were already in Division One"
    • "player born in nearby Chatham" already mentioned chatham was nearby
    • "In front of a crowd of approximately 30,000" 30,000 people speaks for itself
    • "begin the game"
    • "Alf Jenner, normally a forward," -> "the forward Alf Jenner"
    • "who played the whole game with only ten men" if they played the whole game, then they played the game. and if they played the game, then they played
      • It's to clarify that it was the whole game, given that we spoke earlier about a team starting the game with ten men but then the eleventh turning up later -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:32, 13 April 2023 (UTC)]][reply]
    • "A. Webb scored a hat-trick in what would prove to be his only competitive appearance for the team" -> "A. Webb, who scored a hat-trick, made his only competitive appearance for the team"
    • "having been signed by the club after he impressed them"
    • "their record of having won" "their record of winning" ? I think it's fine to change to this wording, since it doesn't really imply or indicate they'd keep that record forever. though if you disagree, do feel free to ignore
    • "run of victories" -> "record"
      • It's meant to indicate that it was a streak. "Record" wouldn't convey that -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:32, 13 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • "The team only scored" the word "fewest" does the job of conveying the significance of the matter
    • "with a record of 11 wins in 12 games. Their total of 57 goals scored"
    • "guarantee the club promotion"
    • "the final game of the regular season" -> "the regular season's final game"
    • "The Southern League ultimately decided to expand" no need to say they decided on a decision. simply say the decision. "the southern league expanded"
    • "During the course of the season"
    • "drew a crowd of approximately 8,000 fans" ditto w previous crowd comment
    • "Harry Buckland and Alf Meager made the most, both playing in all 15 games"
    • No need for "only" in "each missed only one game" and "each played only once"
    • "Webb and R. Read each played once and in both cases it was the player's only match for the New Brompton first team." -> "each played once, their only matches for the..."
  • miscellaneous
    • Recommend splitting everything after "The team's final two games of the regular league season took place on consecutive days" into its own paragraph
    • "more than twice that achieved" clunky. "over twice than those achieved" ?
      • British English would be to say "more than twice" -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:32, 13 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    • "The match between two teams from neighbouring towns in the Medway area" -> this is a case of WP:ELEVAR. Normally, I'd ask that you trim it, no questions asked. However, if the crowd number was because two neighboring towns in the same area competed, then make the causality clearer
  • @Your Power: - many thanks for your review. All done other than where noted in a couple of places. I'll make a point of looking at your latest FAC - surprised I failed to spot that one :-S -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:32, 13 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    @ChrisTheDude thanks! all responses check out. i can confidently support ‍ ‍ Elias 🌊 ‍ ‍ 💬 "Will you call me?"
    📝 "Will you hang me out to dry?"     07:02, 16 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Source review – pass[edit]

@FrB.TG: - both done. I hadn't connected the article SportsBooks Limited with the publishers of the yearbook, as in the front of the yearbook it gives a postal address for the publishers in Gloucester whereas our article says they are based in York. But maybe they have relocated since 2011? -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 14:27, 14 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
That is possible. I wasn't sure if they are the one and same at first either but the official website of SB Ltd. lists the book for purchase. Passing SR. FrB.TG (talk) 14:31, 14 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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