Wikipedia:Featured list candidates/List of Liverpool F.C. statistics and records/archive2

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The following is an archived discussion of a featured list nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured list candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The list was not promoted 22:08, 28 February 2008.

List of Liverpool F.C. statistics and records[edit]

previous FLC (04:20, 5 January 2008)

After the last FLC, the list has gone a major overhaul, and I now feel it is ready to be scrutinised by the community on regards to whether it is to become a Featured List. I feel it meets all the criteria and hopefully you will feel the same. Cheers NapHit (talk) 16:47, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments
    • The Years Won column doesn't sort correctly (and I wonder if it needs to sort at all?)
 Done NapHit (talk) 17:12, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Don't think you need that notes column since you're referencing [1] 11 times in that small section.
Is there any way I could just have one column instead of 11 then? NapHit (talk) 17:34, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, you'd need to tinker with colspan settings (I'm no expert I'm afraid!) The Rambling Man (talk) 17:35, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Am I right in thinking that the two of you mean "rows" and "rowspan" instead of "columns" and "colspan" ? If yes, I've updated the table to (hopefully) do what you had in mind. Otherwise, sorry, I missed the point. Schutz (talk) 18:06, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Yeh that's what we meant, thanks for your help, much appreciated NapHit (talk) 18:09, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Tsk. Silly me, I'm 90 degrees out of spec. Apologies for the confusion. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:11, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Glad it was helpfup; I let you let reproduce the code in the other tables, which could also benefit from this. Schutz (talk) 18:53, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • I think it's worth describing how the Community Shield could be "shared".
    • Similar concerns with the first appearances table, and since it's sortable, I'd wikilink Callaghan on every line.
    • Doig and Thompson should have articles in my opinion.
Will create them soon NapHit (talk) 17:34, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • These sections appear to have the same data twice, once in introductory prose and then, again, in the table. Is there a reason for this?
Not really just left over from when I previously edited the list for FLC in December,
    • You have a table which has different things in the same Total column - not too good. That same table also sorts incorrectly on the dates.
 Done NapHit (talk) 17:34, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • You have a season in amongst the total column for goals scored - looks poor.
 Done NapHit (talk) 17:34, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • The Goals record table is sortable on the total despite the totals being in different units.
 Done NapHit (talk) 17:34, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Oldest, youngest goal scorer table - 17 years, 144 days, not just 17, 144 days.
 Done NapHit (talk) 17:34, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Overall I'm not too keen on the continual use of the sortable tables, particularly in sections which simply don't need tables (like where you have only two rows).
  • So still some work before I can support. The Rambling Man (talk) 17:06, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the comments TRM, I feel the prose is useful in the player record section, but if you feel it necessary I will delete it in the club record section, as I'm not sure if it's needed. Thanks for your time NapHit (talk) 17:34, 15 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comments Some comments.
  • Could more articles be made for the honours? Such as the 1984 Football League Cup Final.
  • Max Thompson and Ted Doig need articles.
  • As stated by The Rambling Man, I'm not sure on the large usage of tables. I'm sure just using the "*..." layout of other lists, like in the featured Ipswich list, would be fine. For example, the table for youngest and oldest appearance holders.
  • Could the International section be expanded?
  • "Record Victory" - no need for victory to be capitalised.
  • The fees in "Transfer fees" could do with being right aligned, so they match up correctly.

Thanks. Mattythewhite (talk) 12:24, 16 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Outstanding comments
    • I'd say the Honours section feels a little incomplete with only links shown for created articles. Articles need creating for the remaining Leauge Cup finals and UEFA Super Cup, assuming they're notable.
    • "Most appearances" table needs a reference.
    • Captions for images need full stops.
      • Sorry to butt in. Captions need full stops if the caption is a whole sentence, but if it isn't, e.g. "Fernando Torres, Liverpool's record signing", it shouldn't have a full stop. See WP:MOS#Captions. Struway2 (talk) 17:28, 20 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
    • Transfer fees need to be correctly aligned, which could be done using {{0}}.
    • Could any more firsts be found? Such as the first match in Euorope?

Getting there. Thanks, Mattythewhite (talk) 16:15, 20 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comments This list is well-referenced and has appropriate images. It does need a bit of work on the layout, particularly with the use of (sortable) tables where a bulleted list or no list/table at all might be preferable. Some comments:

  • Lead para 2. In sentence 1 Liverpool are one of the most successful clubs in England, in the 3rd sentence they're the most successful. You need to decide what this paragraph needs to say, and then probably rewrite it from scratch.
  • Lead para 3. Have a look at the Ipswich para 2, it works quite well.
  • Honours prose. In "domestically and in European Cup competitions", cup wants a small 'c'. If the number of times Liverpool have won any of the cup competitions is a record, then mention that in the prose, otherwise listing the number of times they won various cups only duplicates what appears in the table.
  • Honours table. In "Years Won", won wants a small 'w'.
  • Another way round the Notes column problem would be to close your prose section with a sentence introducing the table, saying something like "Liverpool's honours include the following:", and then put the reference at the end of that sentence. Then return the Notes column to one line per comp and use for specific notes.
  • You may want to explain why the Lancashire League win is worthy of notice.
  • Some of your links go to redirects (the League Cup finals are generally of the format yyyy Football League Cup Final rather than Football League Cup Final yyyy) which you may want to fix if you're going in there anyway.
  • Appearances section. Your prose bits (apart from Elisha Scott) just duplicate what appears in the tables, which seems a bit pointless. If you don't like the bulleted format as used in the Ipswich list, I'd lose the tables and just keep the prose.
  • Goalscorers section likewise.
  • Top scorers table needs a reference.
  • Club records section might work better as a bulleted list.
  • Sortable tables in general. They don't necessarily render or sort properly if the table contains cells extending over multiple rows or columns, apparently even if the offending column is unsortable. See Help:Sorting#Limitations. For the transfer fee tables, you could work round it with an introductory All transfer details are sourced from LFChistory.net followed by the specific reference, then you can lose the Notes column.
  • Transfer fees ought really to align on the decimal point. (Adding a {{0}} spacer before the single-digit-million amounts, like {{0}}£6m, seems to work, and doesn't affect the sorting in Firefox or IE6). Struway2 (talk) 08:58, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • You could add an external link to the club website.

Hope this doesn't sound like I'm saying rip it apart and do it again (though it probably does). I just had a look back at the appearances and goalscorers sections in the version I peer-reviewed, which was before you added all the small tables; thought it looked better then. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 16:39, 16 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Matters arising

  • Sorting the transfer fee tables. For some browsers, if any cell of a table covers more than one row, it does mess up the sorting. Perhaps it isn't a problem on your browser, but what happens for me using Firefox 2.0 when I sort any column of those tables, is that a line appears dividing the Notes column into two sections, the footnote number appears in the centre of the lower of these two sections, and the bottom border of the notes column disappears. In IE6 the same happens except the bottom border remains intact.
  • Also, the number column doesn't sort numerically if you start with a cell containing an equals sign in the top row.
  • Top goalscorers table. It needs a reference - or probably more than one - that covers all the entries in the table. The book source supplied probably covers the older players, but the more recent ones, certainly Steven Gerrard, must have come from elsewhere. And as Matty says, the appearances table needs a reference/references as well.
  • Arising from that, you've got a problem with anons updating. A featured list shouldn't really need updating every time Liverpool have a game. Don't know what can be done about that. (Incidentally, you may want to check last night's anon edits, I'm not convinced they got it right.)
  • I took the liberty of adding your Lancashire League win (first ever trophy) to the prose in the Honours section. I see why you took it out of the major honours table but it deserved a mention somewhere. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 17:57, 20 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • More comments from The Rambling Man (talk · contribs) - I've done another run through since NapHit contacted me to say a lot of rework has taken place.
    • Please add punctuation (full stops) to notes.
    • "Most Overall " - small o(verall).
    • " Phil Neal, 417 (From" (et seq) - make it f(rom).
    • Link hat trick on it's first use (and make sure you get the right hat trick!!).
    • "(During" (et seq) - small d(uring).
    • Fastest hat-trick versus whom?
    • Link Wales to Wales national football team. Check all other first instances are linked to appropriate national teams.
    • Consider relinking things like European Cup if in a new section.
    • "Most league wins in a season: 30 wins out of 42 games (Duri" - cap D again! I won't say it again - there are more so check for them all.
    • Most and fewest league wins - which league?
    • Same with defeats, which league?
    • "Fewest goals scored in a season: 42 in 34 and 42 games (During the 1901–02 and 1970–71 seasons).[18]" - I'd say 42 in 34 games (during the ..) and 42 in 42 games (during the...).
    • Use the {{sortname}} template in the transfers tables - it currently sorts by first name.
  • Certainly an improvement on when I first reviewed it! Good stuff. The Rambling Man (talk) 16:19, 22 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
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