Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2010 August 13

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August 13

𣲙

What does the Chinese character 𣲙 mean? I haven't been able to find a definition for it anywhere. 68.160.243.61 (talk) 04:59, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

All I've been to find is that the character was in the Kangxi Dictionary. [1] Seeing that only a quarter of the characters in the dictionary actually sees use today, my guess is that this was a regional or obscure variant of 水. I couldn't find it in any Kanji dictionaries. bibliomaniac15 05:39, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

see http://dict.variants.moe.edu.tw/yitia/fra/fra02289.htm or perhaps http://dict.variants.moe.edu.tw/yitia/fra/fra00309.htm, variant of either 溺 or 冰96.232.190.148 (talk) 12:14, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

All I can see is ? in the original question. What character does OP want to know? Oda Mari (talk) 15:58, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

It doesn't display on my system either, but it seems to be character D84F-DC99 (however you convert that into non-"surrogates")... AnonMoos (talk) 16:19, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

The character is water with a water left side radical. TomorrowTime (talk) 17:31, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

If anyone wants to calculate it, Mapping of Unicode characters gives the following formula... -- AnonMoos (talk) 16:25, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

10000₁₆ + (H - D800₁₆ ) × 400₁₆ + (L - DC00₁₆)

The character is U+023C99, which seems to agree with your formula.—Emil J. 16:47, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

OK, then you can see a small image of it at http://www.unicode.org/cgi-bin/GetUnihanData.pl?codepoint=23C99 -- AnonMoos (talk) 22:56, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Fit or fitted in American english

Does "fitted" exist in American english? If not, why not? Is it correct to write for example "Noisy (roughly linear) data is fit to both linear and polynomial functions" (from the Overfitting article) rather than "Noisy (roughly linear) data is fitted to both linear and polynomial functions". 92.24.190.46 (talk) 10:47, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

I think it was just a mistake, or an optional American usage. I've changed the word to "fitted" so that it is easily read by all. Dbfirs 11:59, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

I have often read "fit" being used in American-english online texts (Wikipedia, blogs, etc) where I would have written "fitted". I wondered if that usage is correct grammar in American english. Thanks 92.29.127.240 (talk) 15:28, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

"Fitted" is more like past tense, such as a bed with a "fitted sheet". "Fit" is more like present tense, such as "the sheet fits the bed". In the first example posted by the OP, "data is fit" sounds like an adjective, hence incorrect usage. It's a mistake similar to "lighted" vs. "lit". I lighted the candle vs. the candle was lit. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:21, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

In "fitted sheet", the word "fitted" is basically an adjective (passive participle), and has no specific past tense meaning at all. AnonMoos (talk) 16:29, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Even so, a "fitted" sheet means that some action was taken to design it so it would fit a bed; rather than a "fit" sheet, which would be a sheet that's suitable for sleeping on, i.e. made of linen rather than, say, poison ivy strands. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:47, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

You "lighted" a candle, really? I would use "lit" there (or are you saying that is the mistake?) 19:32, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

In statistics, one often speaks of "fitted values". This seems to be the same linguistic phenomenon as in the phrase "fitted sheet". But "fit" is one of the verbs like "set" and "put" where, as I normally use them, the simple present tense, the simple past tense, and the past participle are all the same. I use "forecast" the same way, but recently within Wikipedia I've seen "forecasted". Michael Hardy (talk) 18:28, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

I believe Ogden Nash wrote that fit is only a past tense in "Joshua fit de battle ob Jericho  :-) .—msh210℠ 19:49, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Same issue with "broadcast", and "cast" itself. "The fisherman cast/casted his net" - I think I'd go for "cast" in the past tense. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 23:01, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Is Michael Hardy's usage considered grammatical in American english please? 92.15.11.88 (talk) 18:55, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

In the colloquial sense of "has stuff installed or attached," I'd say "fitted with" occurs in American English but is not the common pattern. E.g., asked to pick the right form in "The 2011 Chevrolet Whooptidoo ( comes with | is fitted with ) an iPod-compatible toaster on the dashboard," most but by no means all Americans would say "comes with."

Yes, "fit" can also be also past tense: "His old uniform fit him well in 2000." This is the simple past that Michael Hardy refers to. It's certainly grammatical in American English, as are his other examples. ("Connie set the next week's agenda before she ended the meeting." "Vince put his passport in his briefcase.") --- OtherDave (talk) 21:08, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

See English irregular verbs and List of English irregular verbs. -- Wavelength (talk) 00:37, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

These articles don't make it quite clear that the usage is fine in American English, but definitely wrong in British English. In the context, I still think that "fitted" is better, but, if it was written in American English, then I was wrong to assume that "fit" was an error. Dbfirs 07:31, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree that using "fit" in place of "fitted" is always incorrect in British English. Perhaps a linguist could change the articles to make this clearer. 92.28.251.219 (talk) 13:21, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

¶ When a pipefitter or steamfitter has completed his or her work, what would you say: "She fit a pipe" or "He fitted a pipe"? Is there a difference when "to fit" in the past or perfect tenses is transitive, intransitive or reflexive (for example, "She fit[ted] the bookshelf into the corner", "He fit in well", "It fit well with the surroundings", "They fit[ted] themselves to the purpose")? —— Shakescene (talk) 07:51, 14 August 2010 (UTC)]

I tried a couple of trade-union sites for steamfitters and pipefitters, but in practice such workers (in the States) tend to used words like "install" or "put in": "He installed a pipe to carry the waste water." "After you put in the exhaust, you've got to wrestle the riser in as well." In the other examples given, again, I'd say Americans (pipefitters or not) would typically use "fit" over "fitted."

I found a comment on the Language Log blog, from an American academic to a British one; the American said that in his experience "fit" is the typical past tense for "putting things into things." "Only a suit made-to-measure is fitted," he says, which goes with the fitted sheets. --- OtherDave (talk) 17:58, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Speaking as a scientist (American, but work with Europeans as much as other Americans), "Noisy (roughly linear) data is fit to both linear and polynomial functions" sounds bad. "Fitted" is the past participle and adjective, while either "fit" or "fitted" sounds okay for the simple past: "we fit(ted) the data to a polynomial function". Same goes for "overfit": "I think they overfit(ted) their data." --Atemperman (talk) 05:51, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

... so we all agree that "fitted" sounds better in this article, but that "fit" would be normal in American English for the simple past in most contexts other than tailoring. In British English, I would always use "fitted" for the past, but I think I've heard "fit" in dialect. Dbfirs 08:47, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

English English

Are Americans in general more familiar with RP or Estuary English (or another variety)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.137.221.46 (talk) 15:35, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

A large number of inhabitants of the U.S. would be somewhat at a loss to classify England accents which were not either stereotypically Cockney or stereotypically posh... AnonMoos (talk) 15:57, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Most Americans in general would be familiar with whatever accents show up in movies and TV shows featuring British actors. That doesn't mean we would know what to call the accents, but we can sometimes tell them apart. Watching Monty Python is fairly educational that way, as they often lapse into what are presumably very specific British accents that they are using for a specific effect. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:16, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Non-native here, but speaker of AmE. I can tell the difference between English and Scottish accents, for example, but not between different English accents (I also can't tell the difference between Scottish and Irish, so if anyone can point out some differences, I would be glad to be a little less ignorant). Maybe someone could also point out some famous Cockney speakers, since everybody seems to assume that Cockney is well-known. I have no idea what Cockney sounds like. To me, an English accent means the way Hugh Laurie (haha) or Kate Beckinsale speak (and yes they sound the same to me, even if one is from Oxford and the other from London - or is there no difference between the two as far as dialect is concerned? or are they both just using RP or something? confusing as f*ck). Rimush (talk) 18:05, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Cockney is like Dick Van Dyke in Mary Poppins - or at least that is what Americans think Cockney sounds like... Adam Bishop (talk) 19:30, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

I'm glad you qualified that, Adam. Dick's Cockney (sounds sort of rude, doesn't it) is as close to Cockney as Pope Benedict's Australian accent. (What Australian accent? Yes, exactly) Try listening to some reruns of Minder or even EastEnders, for an idea of what real Cockney sounds like. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 22:56, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

One problem with Van Dyke's attempt is that he kept lapsing in and out of it. But that could be his voice coach's fault (assuming he had one). So, did Audrey Hepburn do it better in My Fair Lady? (Other than the singing, which she didn't do.) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:53, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

I'd say it was overdone, but very deliberately so given the premise of the story, which was all about a wager on the (im)possibility of teaching a born-and-bred Cockney woman to speak, dress and generally behave like an upper class lady. I'm sure Shaw (heh) would have approved such a strong and marked contrast being made. He won an Oscar for adapting Pygmalion into the 1938 film, in the making of which he was heavily involved. I'd say Audrey Hepburn's Eliza was very much a child of Wendy Hiller's, and that certainly had Shaw's imprimatur. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 23:26, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, basically My Fair Lady without the music, as I recall. Perhaps you've seen the impish poster for the stage play (see link) that shows Shaw controlling Higgins as Higgins is controlling Eliza. So how about Julie Andrews as Eliza, and Stanley Holloway as Eliza's father in both stage and film versions? I'm just curious if any of those folks has the right accent or if they're snowing us ignorant Americans. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 08:47, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Cockney is what all the film and TV characters who addressed people as "guvna" (i.e. governor) were speaking, or trying to speak. To Americans it does sound a little bit like an Australian accent. I guess cockney was more internationally culturally prominent in the 1960's than today... AnonMoos (talk) 23:02, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

My understanding is that there are strong regional dialects and different idioms used in all cultures. England is no exception. Consider such examples as Cockney / Rhyming slang (East End of London), Scouse (Liverpool area), Geordie (North East England) --Senra (talk) 18:56, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Rimush / others in general - the British Library website has an 'accents' section (http://www.bl.uk/learning/langlit/sounds/) that has recordings/details about English regional accents. It's very interesting if you're looking to hear the difference. I know a Texan lady who lived in the Uk for a good decade and she said it was very interesting that she could tell the difference between someone that lived in Leeds's accent and someone that lived in York even though they're only about 25 mile apart - yet in Texan she said you could drive maybe 300 miles and still have the same 'accent' - no idea how much water that holds, but certainly Leeds and York have slightly different accents! ny156uk (talk) 23:01, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, mate! Rimush (talk) 12:24, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

You can do better than that. In rural areas, you can tell someone's village (so to within a mile or two) from their accent (or you could, it only works with elderly people now, since people move around much more than they used to - go back 50 years and it was far more reliable). --Tango (talk) 20:50, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

¶ See this very recent discussion: Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Archives/Language/2010 July 27#British accent. Perhaps the question that started the current thread originated from that discussion. —— Shakescene (talk) 07:58, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Nigerien/Nigerian pronunciation differences in American English

Are Nigerien (someone from Niger) and Nigerian (someone from Nigeria) homophones in standard mid western English? 20.137.18.50 (talk) 19:03, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

I think I've heard it pronounced "ni-zher-ian" ("ni" as in "nit"), although I am sure that most people would never need to use that word, or would even know that Niger exists. Adam Bishop (talk) 19:27, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

A running joke at my high school was pronouncing Niger as the N-word. The infamous Nigger River was a source of annoyance for our global history teachers. Rimush (talk) 19:53, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

If someone finds a reliable source, then the information can be added in a footnote to "Adjectivals and demonyms for countries and nations".

—Wavelength (talk) 20:51, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Is there any reason to think standard mid western English would pronounce these differently than other American english dialects? Perhaps the old heritage of French trappers. Or did you want the General American English pronounciation? Rmhermen (talk) 23:19, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

It would be quite interesting to find out if any dialect at all made a distinction between the pronunciation of the two words. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 04:39, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Why does it seem that strange? For "Nigerian", I say /naɪ.dʒi.ri.ən/, whereas for "Nigerien" I say /naɪ.dʒər.i.ən/, with a syllabic /r/ (Maryland, US). And if you pronounce "Niger" as /ni.ʒer/ (rather than /naɪ.dʒər/) like I do, you would presumably as /ni.ʒe.ri.ən/. I don't see why "Nigerian" and "Nigerien" should be pronounced identically in the first place. 173.66.149.81 (talk) 15:33, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Given that the country Niger's name is actually French, wouldn't the adjective be something lie "Nigeroise"? --TammyMoet (talk) 10:25, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

What, like Parisioise? ;-) Alansplodge (talk) 13:35, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

"Nigerien" and "Nigerienne" are used by the CIA Fact Book and the U.S. Agency for International Development--a bit curious, since we talk about "Haitians" rather than "Haitiens." I'd agree that many Americans would be unaware that there's one country called Nigeria and another called Niger. I'd be willing to bet a modest dinner that (a) more of them would have heard of Nigeria, and (b) most of the folks in group (a) would tend to pronounce "Niger" to rhyme with "tiger." --- OtherDave (talk) 18:02, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

The potential rhyme between "Niger" and "tiger" was mentioned at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 February 13#Rhyming dictionary made of paper, not only in the list at the beginning of the subsection, but also in four subsequent comments.—Wavelength (talk) 19:13, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

The British tent-maker Blacks of Greenock do a heavy 6 person tent called a "Nijer"[2] which I always presumed was the name of the African river with phonetic spelling. Alansplodge (talk) 14:28, 15 August 2010 (UTC)

The word Nigérien ,if it exists at all, is French and is spelled Nigérien not Nigerien. This immediately leads the English speaker towards a pronunciation based on the French, and away from the standard way of saying "Nigerian". Sussexonian (talk) 19:17, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

"If it exists at all?" Well, technically, in French the word is "nigérien(ne)," since French doesn't capitalize nouns or adjectives related to nationality. In English, I'd lean toward forms used by, say, the Republic of Niger's embassy in the U.S. and its consulate in London, both of which explicitly state that the term for the nationality is "Nigerien." --- OtherDave (talk) 20:22, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

In French it is a little bit more complex. When it means "the people" the noun is capitalized, when it refers to the language it is not capitalized: Les Nigériens[capital N] ne parlent pas tous le français [small f]. More here (in French). — AldoSyrt (talk) 07:57, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Chinese transcription and translation

Can someone please transcribe and translate the first couple of sentences about Dayuan from this Google Book scan of a Chinese book?

http://books.google.com/books?id=Y41H4OnymqUC&pg=PA198&dq=%E7%A7%A6%E6%B1%89%E5%8F%B2+%E5%A4%A7%E5%AE%9B&hl=en&ei=TaVlTLzlMIKclge7jI3YCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CCUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

I have a book that translates the information as:

It [General Li Guangli’s army] reached the outskirts of the remote Ferghana, beyond the Pamir Plateau. Originally that was the last undisturbed placed from the upheavals in...Northwest Central Asia and inhabited by people with 'deep eyes, big noses and (distinguished) headdress.' Their principal livelihood was growing grapes, grazing and raising horses. Although they had often seen Han emissaries coming and going in Central Asia, and they also knew that there was a Great Han country to the East, but because they had been under the control of the Huns for [a] very long time, they did not hold the Han emissaries to as a high esteem as those of the Huns (Xiongu).

Someone told me that the author of the above quote might have translated parts of it incorrectly. I would like to see what other translation are possible. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 20:17, 13 August 2010 (UTC)

Can you clarify what it is that you want? Are you talking about Jian Bozan's text, or the original text from the Book of Han?

96.232.190.148 (talk) 03:06, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

Jian's text of course. I provided a link above to his work in my original post. However, someone has already contacted me concerning this. The author did translate this wrong. The text doesn't say anything about a "headdress," only "profuse beards". It appears the author confused 鬚 for something else, possibly 鬏. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 11:40, 16 August 2010 (UTC)