Wikipedia talk:Citing sources/Archive 24

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Jump to: navigation, search
Archive This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Contents

Category for this page?

At the moment this page is in the "Wikipedia style guidelines" and "Wikipedia how-to" categories, should there be a Category:Wikipedia referencing or similar to aid in finding relevant pages?

Incidentally I am looking for a page that lists people who have access to magazine subscriptions or a page that emails sources to Wikipedia editors, any ideas?--Commander Keane (talk) 09:43, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

Let's get the relationship with WP:V right

OMG, now I see the structural problems. My first thought is "why is this page not merged with WP:V?" Perhaps because V is policy and this one is not. But can't the information here be cast as policy and merged into V? I certainly don't want to see the "When to cite sources" section here as guideline and over there as policy. THis is a recipe for chaos.

On second thought, why not clearly define V as the "when", and CITE as the "how". This would involve:

  1. restricting CITE to just the mechanics and style of referencing (which is better separated from a policy page);
  2. ensuring that V avoids talking about the "how", and refers to CITE for that;
  3. removing all duplicated sections from CITE, such as "When to cite sources", rely on direct links to sections in V, and tweak V sections where information in CITE is better expressed, or absent from V, and would be useful and appropriate there.

Starting with "When to cite sources" here in CITE, it seems nicely set out and easy to follow, and not so in V. Should V be recast to include this text?

On the matter of rewriting the lead here at CITE: I'd wait until we decide on this relationship. Tony (talk) 02:08, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

But the mechanics pages are WP:FN and WP:ADR. WP:V is the general policy on sourcing, while WP:CITE gives guidance on what information should be included when giving a source. Gimmetrow 02:21, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Oops it's HP:ADR, aka WP:HARV. Gimmetrow 03:54, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, Gimme, but (1) WP:ADR leads to no page at all; (2) CITE seems very much a "how to" page; (3) why don't these pages at least all refer to each other as a cluster at their openings?, and (4) why can't we merge all the "how to" (styleguide) pages into one, include CITE and FN (footnote), and have V separate as a "when" policy page? Tony (talk)
I think the basic structure is, and more or less ought to be: WP:V lays out the basic policy. WP:RS and subordinate pages provide detail on acceptable sources. WP:CITE is the central page discussing the mechanics that support verifiability; it provides details on when to cite sources, offers links to and summarizes some of the most popular citation methods, and gives the basic relevant MOS principle (consistency within articles). Various other pages, subordinate to WP:CITE, cover the many different citation technologies that have been developed. These last pages would also be substantially subordinate to the manual of style and would provide most of the style-related detail. Christopher Parham (talk) 03:06, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Perfectly said. That should be in a box at the top of talk page. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 08:17, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Well expressed, but why isn't it emblazoned at important places. I really think we need to define this family of pages and the roles of each of the pages so that people don't have to learn about it bit by bit through osmosis. And I'm not convinced that WP:V can't be defined simply as the "where to cite" policy page: does it say anything else? And could you point to me a list of these "various other pages"? I'd be happier knowing the big picture, and I'm sure others would be, too.
The issue remains of why this page delves into "When to cite sources" when V does it too, or purports to. Tony (talk) 03:30, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
Well I see WP:V as providing a top-level summary of this page and of WP:RS. It also explains the overall purpose of the policy and its relationship to the other primary content policies. I think that in general WP:V should be kept pretty brief to avoid weighing it down with more technical material which is best offloaded onto subpages. The "various other pages" I speak of include: WP:FOOT, WP:HARV, WP:ECITE, WP:FN3, and some templates that don't have an associated project page, including {{inote}}, off the top of my head. The two most active and important are of course WP:FOOT and WP:HARV. Christopher Parham (talk) 03:47, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

←Thanks very much for that list, Christopher; I'll survey now. What I'm concerned about is whether they're all properly coordinated and sing from the same songsheet (Sandy seems to be very concerned that they're not), and whether it's the most intuitively organised and accessible way of setting out the guidelines/policy, especially for newcomers. Tony (talk) 08:39, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

When to cite?

Christopher says, WP:Citing sources "is the central page discussing the mechanics that support verifiability; it provides details on when to cite sources, offers links to and summarizes some of the most popular citation methods, and gives the basic relevant MOS principle (consistency within articles)." and also that WP:Verifiability "should be kept pretty brief to avoid weighing it down with more technical material which is best offloaded onto subpages".

However, I don't feel this really clarifies. As I see it, "When to cite" isn't really part of the technical mechanics of citing sources and hence shouldn't really be covered in detail in the pages of such a "how to" guideline. When to cite is more widely contextual and would better suit being covered on the policy page WP:Verifiability.

I think the balance of the argument is in favour of moving "When to cite" to WP:Verifiability.

--SallyScot (talk) 15:04, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

That was my feeling too, and I'm nervous about the duplication. Tony (talk) 14:07, 25 August 2008 (UTC)
While it is policy that the information in an article must be verifiable, the policy page is deliberately silent on how this is to be done. Some Wikipedia editors want detailed in-line citations on every sentence. Others feel that a bibliographic section is fine for many shorter articles. There are also a lot of mathematical and technical articles that list one or more standard texts as references, any one of which could be used as the sole source for the article. Detailed in-line citations would add nothing to such articles, and asking for them has been seen by many involved editors as disruptive and valuing process over content. The present division into policy (which cannot be ignored) and guideline (which needs to be treated with common sense and the occasional exception) is sensible and helps improve Wikipedia. Robert A.West (Talk) 13:52, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
I support moving the "When to cite" section to WP:V. I'm worried that it might clutter up the WP:V page, though. The information in it is common sense. Each subheading could be removed and entire section could be summarized in 3 sentences rather than fifteen. I've been saying that it needs to be moved down on the page for a while now. Incidentally, I also think WP:V should be merged with WP:RS, but that's more controversial. The only subheading worth saving is WP:CITE#IMAGE, which offers technical advice. II | (t - c) 17:09, 7 September 2008 (UTC)
We've been down that road before. See Wikipedia:Attribution for an attempt that got worked on hard by a lot of editors, and finally ended up being discarded. Robert A.West (Talk) 17:14, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

---

OK. It looks like there's an objection to moving "When to cite" content to WP:Verifiability from WP:Cite on the grounds of there being a present division into policy (which cannot be ignored) and guideline (which needs to be treated with common sense and the occasional exception).

In that case bear in mind the pre-existence of the distinct page WP:When to cite and the possibility of moving content there. Its status is currently a "proposed" guideline, but any issues around its status could and should be addressed of course. If there are disputed parts they ought be identified and dealt with accordingly, but article splitting generally (WP:Splitting) is otherwise a well-established approach to resolving overall size issues such as we have here.

--SallyScot (talk) 09:50, 8 September 2008 (UTC)

My Blog Saito Network, an authority site Blazinglight (talk) 02:04, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi, I have a blog called Saito Network, since it's a blog I can't post on your website wikipedia. I want to though some how prove that my site is an authority site and that it can be posted on wikipedia even though it's a blog. I am web renown for my work and have spent countless hours working away at Saito Network putting forth old and new information on Mega Man game titles...I have wanted to advertise on Wikipedia for a very long time and hope that you will allow Saito Network to be apart of Wikipedia as it is just to spread more information and not spam. Please view my blog and tell me what you think : http://saitonetwork.wordpress.com/ I list media, video's, music and information when I find it and when there are updates on latest Mega Man games. I appreciate you looking into this :). Blazinglight (talk) 02:04, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Hi, Blazinglight. I'm not very clear what you want to do. Do you want (1) to write an article about your blog, Saito Network; or (2) people to cite your blog when writing articles about Mega Man? I don't know anything about Mega Man or anime in general, but if your intention is (2), then I think there may be two problems. First, you have put a lot of videos and music on your website. Do you have permission from the copyright owners to do this? If not, then Wikipedia editors cannot cite your website as a reference or even link to it as Wikipedia policy does not allow articles to be linked to external websites that violate people's copyrights: see "Wikipedia:Copyrights". Secondly, you say you have spent a lot of time putting information on to your blog. Have you also stated where you got this information from – books, magazine and newspaper articles, and so on? If not, this is another reason why Wikipedia editors cannot cite your website. If the source of your information is not stated, people cannot tell whether the information is correct or not: see "Wikipedia:Verifiability". I hope this helps. — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 04:29, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Most of the information comes from Capcom and is freely distributable. The other sites referenced either get their information from Capcom, or from a Magazine called "CoroCoro Magazine". You have mentioned several conditions that need to be met, and I believe I can meet these conditions provided the infringments are clearly (giving a few examples) so as to show a true effort on the part of Wikipedia to help other authors comply to its standards. Since the rules seem subject to the discretion of the moderators, then perhaps the moderators can show the examples of what is considered a violation of copyrights and of verifiability, especially since they are making a legal precedence by stating there is a violation (Wikipedia acting as an internet authority). Internet copyright laws have been re-defined as of late and are a great deal more lax than at the writing of Wikipedia's policies. I would only think it fair to give an accurate appraisal so Saitonetwork can attempt to conform to the regulations, by placing realistic conditions on doubts you may have. Thank you Jacklee for your prompt reply, its greatly appreciated, our efforts are only to conform to Wikipedia's policy; providing that blogs are not discriminated against. Blazinglight. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Blazinglight (talk • contribs) 05:32, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

Here are my responses:
  • I haven't looked in detail at your blog, but to improve its verifiability, when you mention certain facts you should say where you got the facts from. If it was from Capcom's website, then you should provide links to the web pages. If they were from CoroCoro Comic, then state the authors and titles of the articles, the issues and dates of the magazine, and the page numbers. That way, if people want to check if the facts you have stated are accurate, they can look up your sources.
  • I think the copyright issue may be harder to fix. Wikipedia's policy is clear – editors must not link to websites that contain material that is being used in breach of other people's copyrights. Therefore, if you don't remove the copyrighted material from your blog this may mean it cannot be cited or linked to in Wikipedia. It doesn't matter that Wikipedia's policy is stricter than copyright laws in different countries; if we want to contribute towards Wikipedia then we have to accept its current policies. If you want to suggest that the policy be changed, you can try making a proposal at the Village Pump.
— Cheers, JackLee –talk– 08:27, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
About copyright: the first page of the site has many YouTube videos that seem at first glance to be copyright violations. The site would have to provide a pointer to where these videos came from and why there is no copyright violation. Wikipedia editors can seldom be certain that there is or is not a copyright violation, but they will generally go with general appearance.
About using the blog: blogs are usually unreliable. One exception is blogs run by a reliable source, such as the New York Times or Scientific American, but that exception does not apply here. Another exception would be if the blogger was known to be an authority on the subject. Has Blazinglight written articles in well-known magazines about computer games (or whatever topic he/she thinks the blog should be a reliable source for)? In what reliable publication can we find evidence of
  1. the real name of the author of saitonetwork.wordpress.com
  2. that the author really is a computer game authority
--Gerry Ashton (talk) 14:11, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
The best place to discuss the reliability of individual sources is the reliable sources noticeboard.
However, I suspect that the blog owner really wants to be listed as an external link, not as a reliable source. Based on previous comments at WT:EL, the reference to "recognized authority" in WP:ELNO is interpreted as "indisputably and widely recognized authority", and is intended to permit links to blogs written by people who have won Nobel Prizes, or similar extremely rare situations. In short, while BlazingLight may have a lovely blog, and a strong following, it will never be an acceptable external link.
Additionally, the author of a blog (or any website) has no business posting a link to his/her own blog on Wikipedia ever. It is a violation of the conflict of interest rules, which is interpreted most strictly for external links. At most, the author can suggest the addition of a link on an article's talk page and hope that someone else will agree.
This discussion page is dedicated to improving the guideline, WP:Citing sources, and since this question is off-topic, I suggest that it be carried on elsewhere. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:37, 3 September 2008 (UTC)

I moved this discussion to the suggested place : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Conflict_of_interest#My_blog.2C_following_Wikipedia.27s_rules —Preceding unsigned comment added by Blazinglight (talk • contribs) 23:21, 7 September 2008 (UTC)

Use of terms

Section heading added ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 22:32, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

I believe there's an issue with this guideline using the terms "citation" and "reference" quite so interchangeably (as it suggests currently in the use of terms section).

I think they only happen to be one and the same thing with the standard footnotes method. With the shortened footnotes method it becomes clearer that citations and references can be distinct (though currently the guideline advice for the shortened notes method is to name the section containing the short citations "notes", which may be not so clear).

A good example to consider is when explanatory notes are also included with the shortened notes method, because in this case there's a requirement for three distinct section headings. There doesn't seem to be any guideline advice on what to call these sections, even though such a three section approach would be good practice. - There's merit in using shortened notes and separating explanatory notes and no reason why wanting to do both should be mutually exclusive.

Take for instance the former featured article "Sophie Blanchard". - Here you can see three sections. "Notes" - for explanatory notes, "Citations" - for the short citations, and "References" for the full references.

As this approach would seem to be good practice shouldn't we consider the implications in terms of the guideline's advice?

I can see how wanting to use the terms citation and reference interchangeably may be well intended for the sake of simplicity, however I do feel that, other than for the bog standard footnotes method, it may be better to elucidate the difference for the benefit of other approaches.

--SallyScot (talk) 19:53, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

There is no requirement for three separate sections. It is permissible to put short citations and full citations in the same References section if the editors so choose. Indeed, you can add the explanatory notes and rename the single section Notes and references if you feel like it. There are good reasons to split them up (especially in an extensively referenced article), but there is no requirement. WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:05, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Okay WhatamIdoing, thanks for pointing that out, but I don't think the gist of what I'm saying really pivots on such an insistent notion of requirement. The fact remains, if you use shortened notes and separate explanatory notes then you necessarily end up with three distinct parts. It makes sense to present these three parts with three distinct headings, be they section headings, subsections or simply emboldened titles (not appearing in the table of contents). I'm not insisting that they have to be called "Notes", "Citations" and "References" if that doesn't suit either, although again, as with "Sophie Blanchard", those names do seem to be quite clear. What I think should be observed is that, as it currently stands, we have advice in both "Wikipedia:Citing sources#Shortened footnotes" and "Wikipedia:Footnotes#Separating reference lists and explanatory notes" both suggesting the same "Notes" section name each for their own thing, from the looks of it by accident and not by design. --SallyScot (talk) 22:44, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
I don't like the "use of terms" section, myself. These are ordinary words that have ordinary meanings. The word "reference" has many uses, but for our purposes can refer to either a citation ("this is a reference to a book") or a source ("my reference for this fact is the Guinness Book of World Records"). That's how the word is used. I think we should, in general, avoid the word reference if what we really mean is "footnote" or "citation" or "footnote-containing-citation". I am only suggesting on how the words should be used in this guide -- I am not discussing section titles.
My concrete suggestion is this: drop the section on "use of terms" and make a pass through the article to make sure that it's using these terms with their correct, ordinary meaning. Avoid all ambiguous uses of the word "reference." ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 22:32, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
Well, I'm sorry if the section seems aesthetically displeasing, but the section was implemented to solve a practical problem. Merely using the terms in an internally consistent manner has not proven to be sufficient. We have readers from all over the world, and from all different disciplines. Some people deeply believe certain things about the "correct" meaning of certain words, and many style guidelines have suffered from "But that's not a reference -- that's a citation!" or "That's not a reference -- that's a bibliography!" conversations. We define these terms specifically because the absence of the definitions has proven to waste time and energy. I'm perfectly satisfied with moving it to the end of the guideline, or putting it in a note at the end of the article like WP:V does with its definition of source, but I will not agree to its deletion. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:19, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
Okay, yes, I guess you are right. Leave it. I guess what really bothers me is this: why do we use these terms interchangeably? "Citation" is so much more specific than "reference". Isn't this the source of at least some of the confusion? ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 08:19, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

I'd be up for moving it. I'll put toward the bottom, just ahead of the "Tools" section if that's okay. --SallyScot (talk) 17:36, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

(Still) open issues.

In July and August, substantial changes were made to this guide and even more substantial changes are planned. I thought it would useful to list the open issues and provide links to the relevant discussions.

  • Recent changes. Many sections were rewritten (this July) with the intent of making them more useful and comprehensible to new editors and first-time readers. These edits still need to be carefully checked for accuracy, clarity and MOS issues. Most of these rewrites were in the sections "Putting together the citation" and "Adding the citation". A few things that might need to be fixed are mentioned in #Several issues.
  • Page too long, duplication and repetition. It has been pointed out that the page is far too long to be useful to new editors, and that large parts of this guide duplicate other guides, which creates synchronization problems. There are several proposals to shorten and simplify the guide. These are the proposals:
  • Quick summary has been reintroduced recently. Does this need to be discussed?
  • Access date Has this been resolved? Mentioned in #Several issues.

I hope this list helps. Please discuss these issues in their respective sections (just follow the link). As these issues get settled, I will update this list. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 19:49, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

There is still an ongoing discussion about terminology in WP:LAYOUT that spills over to other guidelines. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 12:49, 21 August 2008 (UTC).
Restored this from the archive. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 08:44, 5 September 2008 (UTC)
Updated to reflect things that have been completed. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 22:14, 10 September 2008 (UTC)

Unreadable

This should be a readable document. I want to learn something and be about my business. This should also have a very wide audience.

I recommend splitting the article into two articles:

 Citing sources - HOWTO
 Citing sources - Why, what if, and FAQ  —Preceding unsigned comment added by Full Decent (talk • contribs) 19:06, 13 September 2008 (UTC)
Sounds reasonable but others who know more about the structuring of these things would have to comment. There are help pages that are more focused on How To cite; they are linked to from within sections. Would it help if they were linked right from the top of this guideline? Any other suggestions for improving the readability, even if it couldn't be split up, might help. EverSince (talk) 03:53, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Citing_sources/Example_edits_for_different_methods is a sort-of howto. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 05:19, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

Is there an "overcited" cleanup template?

On Portland Terminal Company there are way too many citations. Is there a template to tag this with? --NE2 23:41, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

None that I've seen, given that the issue is lack of citations 99% of the time. Any reason to not go ahead and just clean it up? — Huntster (t • @ • c) 01:39, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
I don't have any of the sources, so I can't know which one supports each fact. And, actually, the user is still active, so I'll ask him. --NE2 01:40, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
Many of those are to the same sources & even the same page numbers in that source. At minimum, the ref footnotes should be re-used to eliminate those that duplicate page numbers. Depending on the source, it might be relatively easy to locate information & page numbers could be omitted altogether. In the future, the general cleanup template would be adequate for this & you can detail your gripes on the article's talk page. --02:18, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Suggestion for a new lead

In line with WP:LEAD, I think this guide could use a succinct description of the elementary ideas, something like this:

This page in a nutshell: This page describes how to write citations in articles.

Verifiability is a core content policy of Wikipedia. An article, paragraph or statement is verifiable if it is connected by a citation to a reliable source, so that reader can use the citation to find the source and verify that it supports the material. A citation is a line of text that tells the reader exactly how to find a source. For example, this is a citation:

The source may be a book, website, scientific paper, newspaper article, et cetera. Material in the body of the article is usually connected to the citation in one of three ways:

  1. Footnotes. The citation may appear in a footnote. The footnote can appear directly after the statement, allowing the reader to click on the footnote, read the citation and find the source. For example, this sentence is followed by a citation in a footnote.[1] This is the most common way to connecting statements to citations.
  2. General references. The citation may appear in a References section at the end of the article. The reader may assume that these citations can be used to verify many different aspects of the article.
  3. Author-date references. An author-date reference looks like this: (Turing 1950, p. 451). It may appear directly after the statement or (more often) in a footnote, such as the one at the end of this sentence.[2] The full citation appears in an alphabetized References section at the end of article. The reader can use the name of the author and the date of publication to find the citation.

These are the most common methods of making articles verifiable. A Wikipedia editor is free to use any of these methods or to develop new methods; no method is preferred. Each article should use the same method throughout. If an article already has some citations, an editor should study the method already in use and seek consensus before changing it. If you do not know how to format a citation, provide enough information to identify the source and others will improve the citation.

I've cut a lot of corners here, but I don't think anything I'm saying is false and it manages to introduce most of the critical material in this guide. Any objections? Comments? ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 07:32, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't think we need more prose meta-explanation. We just need to give people the technical details, quick and dirty. I think the quick summary should be added, and all the information on "When to cite" should be moved down. II | (t - c) 17:10, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure I know what you mean. Do you think my suggestion above is the "prose meta-explanation" or is it the "quick summary" that "should be added"? ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 17:30, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
Sorry. Yours is meta-explanation. Notice that there are no technical details in your text. Instead, you have a lot of "duh" statements -- no offense, but I hardly think many people need to be told what a citation is, or what it means for a statement to be "verifiable", or what a source is, or what a footnote is. I can't support adding more duh statements to this article, and certainly not near the top. A link to a definition, whether at Wiktionary or some other page, suffices. This is the "Quick summary" that I liked. It was quickly removed by Philip because it didn't mention Harvard (parenthetical) referencing. Personally, I don't mind if the quick summary doesn't mention Harvard referencing. Harvard referencing it a tricky method for academics who want to use it. For people looking to just put information down, the basic Cite.php method of footnotes should get them started. There seemed to be positive thoughts on that quick summary, and I'd like to add it again. If it is unsatisfactory because it excludes something, then the proper approach is to add that thing, not take it out. II | (t - c) 23:30, 15 August 2008 (UTC)
My main concern is that this guide does not seem to have a lead, in the sense of WP:LEAD. A lead should define the topic of the article and summarize the contents. Anything else is confusing an amateurish. The current version reads like a random digression.---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 00:45, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
ImpIn, you've clearly not been involved in the same Wikipedia talk page discussions that I have. Editors have dreamed up all sorts of things based on their personal distinctions between "reference" and "citation" and "source". I was quoting "Use of terms" just this week. I really think that we need to have definitions (although not in a "Quick summary" section). WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:18, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Yes. "Reference" is used ambiguously in Wikipedia guides, but "citation", "source" and "footnote" should not be. It's logical to define "citation" in the lead of this guide, "source" in the lead of WP:RS and "footnote" in the lead of WP:FOOT. (WP:RS' lead says "Reliable sources are credible published materials ..." and WP:FOOT begins "A footnote is a note placed at the bottom of an article that ...", There is nothing wrong with this kind of elementary (or "duh" as ImpIn calls it) definitions in the first few lines of an article, in fact, I feel strongly that this is what most readers are (consciously or unconsciously) expecting to see. When they don't see it, the article reads poorly. Wikipedia articles, even guidelines, should clearly describe their topic. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 21:13, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Reference and source are essentially the same thing, whether we're talking about this guideline or not. Citation sort of refers specifically to the reference, when it is being cited. A footnote is just a small superscript note connected to a source or a comment at the bottom of a page. I'm intrigued by how these obvious definitions could be interpreted otherwise; could you show me a link, WhatamIdoing? Describing context is OK, such as noting the distinction between footnote, parenthetical, and hybrid systems would be great in the lead, but taking three or four sentence to define obvious terms is not good in my opinion. I guess we'll just have to disagree. If you do update the lead, you should try to do so in prose rather than bullets. II | (t - c) 22:32, 16 August 2008 (UTC)
Here, for one example (referencing the "Use of Terms" section that was recently deleted (by you?) from this guideline, and which I'd like to see restored promptly [buried at the end of the page is perfectly adequate for my purposes]). Here, for an example at RSN. Here, for another very long discussion involving the use of these terms. I'm sure there are more, but these are representative. WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:05, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Nope, I didn't delete that section that I know of. I have no problem with it up at the top. I also don't see the relevance of it to that discussion, although I agree with you that References, as a standard term, is preferable to Bibliography. :p II | (t - c) 01:49, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Must have been an accident: [1]. It needs to be rewritten anyway. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 03:40, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Second Draft

After thinking about this over night, I feel very strongly that this page needs a lead along the lines I am suggesting. I would like to know if there are other editors who think that this lead would be useful, or at least, harmless.

Here is a better draft.

This page in a nutshell: This page describes how to write citations in articles.

A citation is used to connect material in Wikipedia with a reliable source. It makes the material verifiable, since a reader may use the citation to find the source and verify that it supports the material. Verifiability is among the core content policies of WIkipedia. Citations are required for quotes, most images, material about living persons and anything that is likely to be challenged.

A citation is a line of text that identifies a source uniquely. For example, this is a citation:

An article, paragraph or sentence is usually connected to the citation in one of four ways:

  1. General reference: By placing the citation in a References section at the end of an article.
  2. Footnote: By placing it in a footnote following the sentence or paragraph it verifies (such as the following footnote).[3]
  3. Shortened note: By placing the citation in a References section and naming just author and year in a footnote.[4]
  4. Parenthetical referencing: By placing the citation in a References section and naming author and year in parenthesis. (Turing 1950, p. 451)

These are the most common methods of making articles verifiable. A Wikipedia editor is free to use any of these methods or to develop new methods; no method is preferred. Each article should use the same method throughout. If an article already has some citations, an editor should study the method already in use and seek consensus before changing it. If you do not know how to format a citation, provide enough information to identify the source and others will improve the citation.

This draft defines "citation", summarizes in three paragraphs the three main sections of the article and briefly explains (what I think are) the most important policies for a new editor to see. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 22:57, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Where some ambiguity still exists is in the terms: References, Notes, List of sources (Bibliography) and still requires some discourse. FWiW Bzuk (talk) 01:17, 18 August 2008 (UTC).
Yes, as I said above, "reference" is ambiguous, but "citation" is not. I think it's important that the reader have a fresh definition in the back of their mind as they read the article. The article should probably avoid the word "reference" whenever the words "source", "citation" or "footnote" would do. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 03:40, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
That looks better. You should note that general references are discouraged. I would move them to the bottom. I think it should be listed Footnote, Parenthetical, Shortened footnotes, and then general reference. 01:49, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Re: general refs discouraged. Agreed. They can go on the bottom.---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 03:40, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
General references are not discouraged so I'm not sure where this is coming from. Christopher Parham (talk) 23:46, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Re: General refs not discouraged. They can stay in the order they are. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 08:08, 19 August 2008 (UTC)
The problem still remains what to call the entire section since almost all of the references are related. My suggestion is to start with "References" (which generally indicates sources of information) as a main heading (L2) followed by the "Notes" sub-section (which can be further refined if editors choose as Endnotes or Footnotes or even Parenthetical Notes,Shortened footnotes or Citations) and follow that up with "Bibliography" which is a comprehensive bibliographical notation giving full source information for print material, with "External links" if needed as a further sub-section of the bibliography, given that it represents non-print (electronic) resources. Only if required, should a "Further reading" section be provided as this terminology actually implies that the information sources were in addition to those provided as source material. FWiW, to allay fears of a widespread departure from the forms presently in use, this system/guide uses current terms and structures with minor changes; it was actually devised by a Swedish editor and has been in place for over a year in approximately 16,000 articles, which have withstood scrutiny by FA, GA reviewers and experts in cataloging and reference sources (i.e. librarians). Bzuk (talk) 15:10, 18 August 2008 (UTC).
Okay, but this is a different issue. I'm just trying talk folks into letting me define "citation" in the lead. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 22:09, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Still needs tweaking, somewhat unnecessary additional prose and also misleading (by the way, I corrected the MoS breach in the citation; when adding text to guideline pages, we should be careful to respect WP:MOS). I agree that we don't need more meta-prose, and there's also no need to appear to favor one citation method over another. This example uses {{citation}}, which will lead many readers to believe that's the preferred citation method on Wiki. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:30, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

A few more corrections to the example given. By linking to a Wiki article in the title, you invalidate the URL, for which no accessdate was given. It might be helpful to see wider participation here from some of the people who do extensive citation work at FAC and FAR, so we don't end up with incorrect examples and deviations from best practice. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:36, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
And another; the URL in the example given doesn't link to the journal, so it's not a good example. If examples are to be given, please use a standard and more straightforward example, so readers aren't encouraged to link to external sites for possible copyvios of articles. That citation isn't technically correct, since it lists a journal as the publisher, but gives a courtesy link to another website. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:41, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I hope the page won't mention things like "general refs are discouraged"; that's often the only way novice editors know how to add references, and something is better than nothing. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 15:38, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I absolutely agree that no citation method is preferred. This draft, I hope, is very clear about this. (You'll note that the final paragraph devotes two sentences to this, and the middle part is structured as a menu of choices, inviting the reader to pick one. It even encourages editors to develop new methods, as you did in Tourette syndrome).
As far as the example goes, it was more or less randomly chosen. (It's a bit complicated for an introductory example anyway). Thank you for fixing its MOS issues.
A more serious issue is whether or not the draft is misleading. What, exactly, is misleading? Let's fix that.
You also mention that it's verbose. It's pretty tight, but I can see two sentence to that could be axed. That's about all, though, in my view. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 22:09, 18 August 2008 (UTC)
Take a look at the "shortened note" which corresponds to a "Harvard" citation style, nominally given as "author (last name only) date, and page." FWiW, that's the way the tempalate will format the example. Bzuk (talk) 23:07, 18 August 2008 (UTC).
Maybe it should mention this, too. I left it out because I'm trying to avoid any details whatsoever. The main thing the reader should gather is that there are four common citation methods and what the essential differences between them are. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 00:11, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Third Draft

This page in a nutshell: This page describes how to write citations in articles.

A citation is a line of text that uniquely identifies a source. For example, this is a citation:

  • Ritter, R. (2002). The Oxford Style Manual. Oxford University Press. ISBN 0-19-860564-1. 

It allows a reader to find the source and verify that it supports material in Wikipedia. Citations are required for quotes, most images, information about living persons and anything that is likely to be challenged.

An article, paragraph or sentence is usually connected to the citation in one of four ways:

  1. General reference: By placing the citation in a "References" section at the end of an article.
  2. Footnote: By placing it in a footnote following the sentence or paragraph it verifies (such as the following footnote).[5]
  3. Shortened footnote: By placing the citation in a "References" section and naming only the author, year and page number in a footnote.[6]
  4. Parenthetical reference: By placing the citation in a "References" section and naming the author, year and page number in parenthesis (Ritter 2002, p. 45).

These are the most common methods of making articles verifiable. A Wikipedia editor is free to use any of these methods or to develop new methods; no method is preferred. Each article should use the same method throughout—if an article already has some citations, an editor should adopt the method already in use or seek consensus before changing it.

If you do not know how to format a citation, provide enough information to identify the source and others will improve the citation.

Well, I cut the the only sentences that I could sensibly cut and I used a less complicated example. Any remaining objections? As I said above, I feel strongly that this guide should have a real WP:LEAD. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 09:03, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm going with this. Let me know if there are problems. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 06:48, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
I haven't been following this discussion as it has developed, but I perceive a problem with the one of four ways list. Recasting the four numbered links to show both the wikilinks and the piped replacement text, I see 1. #Adding the citation|General reference, 2. #Footnote system|Footnote, 3. #Shortened footnotes|Shortened footnote, 4. #Parenthetical referencing|Parenthetical reference. Number 1 above points to the Adding the citation section of the project page. Numbers 2-4 point to subsections of that section. "Way" number one has no illustrative example,and it seems to include "way" numbers 2-4. That project page section also has another subsection, #Embedded links, which is not mentioned in this list. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 01:43, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
Yes, this isn't ideal. "General references" are described in the section pointed to, but only in one paragraph and has no section header of its own. I'd like to add a section header for it and possibly an example as well, just for symmetry. I left out "Embbeded links" because it isn't, as near as I can tell, one of the "usual ways"—it's unusual, at least in featured articles. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 08:09, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
I went ahead and added a header and an example for general references. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 09:12, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

In the lead, the term "footnote" is used to refer to the inline citation text or the numbered superscript link it creates. In the Quick summary, it is used to refer to where the citation text actually appears at the end of the article. I think the latter is technically correct?

More generally, I'm not sure it's really coming across (anywhere in the article) that there exists on Wikipedia this "automated" listing system, which is activated in some articles but not others. Yet this seems to be the main way in which Wikipedia differs from regular citation practices that newcomers might be more used to. EverSince (talk) 05:34, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

What do you think about, now that there is also the Quick summary section, moving the citation method bullet points to the top of that section? That would presumably allay the concern regarding that section appearing to only promote one method, while the additional basic how-to for the footnotes method would still be there.

And would it be OK to expand those bullet points slightly to clarify that the two footnotes methods are sort of "automated" so that where you insert the citation (or shortened citation) isn't where it actually appears in the article? (I'd like to try to clarify that within the main footnotes sections too...).

Also would it be OK to add to the lead some additional indications as to the scope of the article e.g. that it outlines when to source, how to fix sourcing problems, using citation tools etc? EverSince (talk) 03:01, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

I think it would be better to mention "automated" in the section below, not in the lead. I'm opposed to adding any complicating detail to the lead section at all. The idea is to make "citing sources" appear simple and elementary, by eliminating all unnecessary detail and just stating flatly the very most important points. ---- CharlesGillingham (talk) 07:12, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
Yep that's what I'm saying...moving the numbered list of citation methods down from the lead to the section below. And then clarifying in that list that with foonotes methods you don't place the citation in the footnotes section but that's where it will appear (doesn't necessarily need mention "automated"). And then adding some simple prose back in to the lead that outlines each section of the guideline. EverSince (talk) 07:27, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Citing informal sources

My father was a city commissioner for Pontiac and my mother is currently going through his stuff for a Historic project she is working on. There are several letters from other politicians, dinner programs, memos and so forth that she is finding. How do I cite that? I can provide copies of the letter or what-not to prove it's authenticity, but I have no idea how to cite it.

Also, she is finding several newspaper articles. Unfortunately they are just the article, the upper corner is missing so I can't establish the paper or date. How do I deal with this? Can I site the stand-alone article? What's a guy to do? padillaH (review me)(help me) 19:59, 17 September 2008 (UTC)

Unpublished works, such as private letters and memos, are not acceptable sources and cannot be used on Wikipedia.
You may be able to to determine the source of at least some newspaper articles by considering artifacts such as the typeface used or comments on the back of the page. Many newspapers are willing to let people look through back issues for more information.
Overall, though, it sounds like you're primarily working on an original research project. Perhaps if your mother publishes a book on her work, then we could cite that instead. WhatamIdoing (talk) 20:40, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
I tend to agree with WhatamIdoing, that you are most likely working on original research about a certain political episode/politicians. Original Research is very important, as mankinds knowledge only increases with original research, so your project (if it is indeed original research) is a worthwhile and useful effort. However, Wikipedia is not the platform for original research, Wikipedia aims to present common knowledge. That does not mean your project is less worthy, only that Wikipedia is not the place to present it (there are others places). Arnoutf (talk) 21:29, 17 September 2008 (UTC)
@WhatamIdoing, How is that any different? And by that I mean how do I cite it when she publishes them with the historic project? They will still be a loose collection of memos and letters, they'll just be in the public domain. Are you saying that, reality aside, if it ain't in book form we can't cite it? That's rather limited isn't it?
@Arnoutf, I understand the concept of Wikipedia, that's why I'm asking questions about citations and not just writing the article out of whole cloth. None of the things being presented are unknown to me (Iam his son after all), I am looking for ways to present them within the context of Wikipedia.
Both, I'm not working on the reseearch project, my mother is. After she has done the research and published the results, how do I cite that research here? There must be ways of citing unpublished public works. Not everything needs to be in book form to be information, does it? padillaH (review me)(help me) 13:12, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
Publishers provide two important services from Wikipedia's point of view: making sure that material is worthy of publication, and making the information accessible. Putting material in an archive that is open to the public, which might be what the Pontiac Hispanic History Preservation Project does, only satisfies the access part of the problem. Some of the material might be acceptable if the author is a well-known expert in a field and has published books or articles in the field. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 16:13, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
"Acceptable" how? Are you saying the physical evidence of a signed letter from Jimmy Carter is unaccptable unless someone else tells you it's a signed letter? Are you thinking about secondary sources and Notability? I've established, and can continue to establish, notability for my father (as much crap as he kicked up, he's been in a paper or two). What I'm looking for is how to cite other information that is being supplied. I don't need a point of view to list an accomplishment. No one needs to "evaluate" whether he was secretary of LUPA in the 1960's, he was. It's not a value judgment, it's a statement of fact. There is no need to give a point of view (or it's corresponding counterpoint) in order to acknowledge that Mayor Coleman Young of Detroit once declined an informal softball tournament on the auspices that city officials cars didn't run past 8 Mile Rd. I have the letter signed by the mayors assistant. It has happened. It is a fact. No point of view needed. In point of fact I thought we were supposed to keep articles non POV. Publishers provide the sole service of providing access to material. How do I cite this source material when it's not in book form? Do I have to go to OTRS? Is there no standard for citing this kind of thing? padillaH (review me)(help me) 18:31, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
What is OTRS? --Gerry Ashton (talk) 18:48, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
It's basically the e-mail/trouble ticket system for Wikipedia. If, for example, someones bio is being misrepresented they can send WikiMedia Foundation an e-mail proving they are whom they claim and straitening the situation out. It has happened with, for example, James Randi regarding his views on Christianity and some other stuff. It's not any kind of threat to "go over your head", it means there's a hiccup in the system and we need professional guidance to figure this thing out. Since my father is not alive this is not a BLP issue. But there's gotta be some way of noting reality short of publishing a book for the sole purpose of correcting Wikipeida. padillaH (review me)(help me) 19:00, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

There is the issue you asked about, and the issue of where you might be headed.

You asked if something can be cited if it isn't in a book. Items that are available in an archive that is open to the public can be cited. Items that are not available to the public cannot be cited. The 14th edition of the Chicago Manual of Style in paragraph 15.284 gives this example of a manuscript citation:

1. George Creel to Colonel House, 25 September 1918, Edward M House Papers, Yale University Library.

As for where you might be headed, if you weave together a bunch of details from primary sources to support a new idea that has not been published before, that is original research. Wikipedia is not the place to publish original research. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 19:15, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Awesome! Thanks so much for that. That's a big help. And thanks for the admonition regarding OR. I also have to be very careful of WP:SYNTH so I don't start making things up out of two different pieces of information. And I very much appreciate the help. padillaH (review me)(help me) 19:26, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

How should foreign sources be translated?

I'm having some second thoughts about the Croatian national football team article. Because of specific regulations and availability issues, a few Croatian sources have been used in the article. To increase the readers research ability I have translated the most relevant parts of the foreign articles to sufficiently back up the statements, as you will see on the page. However, I think the current style is a little diminishing and out-of-place. I remember somebody saying that it could be an alternative to move all the translations on the talk page, and simply leave a note in the 'References' section which leads the readers to the translations. Would this be a better idea? Or, what other alternatives do I have? I would really appreciate opinions on such. Thanks! Domiy (talk) 08:20, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm not in favour of parking the translations on the talk page, as that's not really the purpose of such pages. I think you've made the right choice in putting the translations into the footnotes. What you've done seems all right to me. Alternatively, you could do something like this (click on "edit this page" to see the wikitext):
"Šimunić: Zašto nam nisu pustilu Thompsona? [Šimunić: Why didn't they allow us Thompson?]" (in Croatian). Sport Index HR (14 October 2007). Retrieved on 2008-08-12. "Šimić – the terrain was unpleasant. Šimunić's biggest bother was the exclusion of Thompson at Maksimir. 'Some strange things are happening. I don't understand why they didn't allow Thompson's music before the game or even at half time when they know it lifts our spirits. I'm speechless.' [Translated into English by Domiy.]"
— Cheers, JackLee –talk– 11:36, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

Cited news story is removed; now what???

In the article Zazacatla, there is a quote (correctly) attributed to an Associated Press news story about discoveries at the site. But the article has been taken off line. Now what?

Should I remove the quote? That seems extreme. Do I try to find another URL for the story? What if I can't?? This is an issue I run across on a regular basis?? Any insight appreciated, Madman (talk) 03:43, 22 September 2008 (UTC)

I added an alternate way to get the document, by using Gale General OneFile. This is a service that many public libraries and universities make available to patrons and students. In my case, I can search from home for free using a password supplied by my local public library. --Gerry Ashton (talk) 04:04, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
I replaced the dead-link cite with an alternative source which still lives. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 04:25, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
For future reference, you might see if the website has been archived by the Internet Archive's Wayback Machine at http://www.archive.org. — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 18:42, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
This is why you don't just provide a URL. That story doubtless has a title, an author, and a publication date, and that's the information that needs to be in the citation. The URL is there for convenience, nothing more. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:46, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
FWIW, I did check archive.org. They say here that they archived a copy on Sep 29, 2007 (providing that link), but but following that link produced a message saying that they were unable to serve up the archived copy. Also, the alternative supporting citation which I provided specified url, title, publisher, and accessdate. The referenced web page was undated, so I specified no date. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 01:07, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

I have raised this kind of problem at the Village pump and suggested some solutions. Ty 01:22, 24 September 2008 (UTC)

Ty, thanks for raising that issue. Although this posting was about the Zazacatla article, my bigger worry was the eventually rotting of many links. I generally use more permanent references for most of my work (articles on Mesoamerica archaeology), but I still nonetheless fret when using a web-page, since I've seen so many links go head within a year's time. I'll respond there. Madman (talk) 04:12, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Ibid

Advise needs to be given on this page about not using Ibid as it is a common practice in other publications, but often leads to errors in Wikipedia pages. It is in Wikipedia:Footnotes#Style recommendations but it is true for all citation styles so it should be mentioned here. --Philip Baird Shearer (talk) 22:03, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes. This google search produces scary results. -- Boracay Bill (talk) 23:58, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Including passages in the citations

I've been experimenting with including the relevant passage (i.e. relevant sentence/s from the sources) in which I am citing my sources to try to improve verifiability on Game Boy, using either the {{citation}} template or, for my multiple references from a video game history book, including it direct from the reference. I find it easier to have the quote from the relevant passage (if applicable and provided it doesn't cause WP:SIZE problems) included in the reference; it seems easier to verify right there in the article as compared to placing it on the article's talk page. I also think this makes an article more sustainable and maintainable. Is this a good idea to do? MuZemike (talk) 00:13, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

I'd do this sparingly and only if the quotation really adds value to the article, for example, if it is a critical statement in a source that's not easily accessible, or if it's an English translation of a foreign-language source. I wouldn't suggest that editors do this routinely for every single source, otherwise this will prove to be a burden for editors, and will generally make the "Notes" sections of articles very long and possibly quite difficult to read. — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 04:04, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
It's also a useful approach when documenting frequently challenged statements. It's not necessary in most instances. WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:38, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Citing editorial material from a book

How do I cite something that was was written by the editor of a book by someone else? For instance, Robert Southey's whole biography of William Cowper was part of his edition of Cowper's poems; Cowper is listed as the author on the title page, and Southey as the editor. You can see how I cited that at Striking and Picturesque Delineations..., ref 10. I tried a different method for Brian Boyd's footnotes in his edition of novels by Vladimir Nabokov (using the "author" field in the "cite book" template for the editor and the "editor" field for the author)—see Pale Fire, note 36. Or some years ago, I used yet another method at Carmen (novella) (which doesn't have in-line references). Does any of these work? Do I need to abandon citation templates and use something like MLA, which would mean changing all the references in the first two of those articles?

And if this isn't the right place for me to ask, where should I ask? —JerryFriedman (Talk) 05:53, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

I would treat the biography as a chapter of the book, like this:
Wikitext: {{citation|author=[[Robert Southey]]|chapter=Life of Cowper|editor=[[William Cowper]]; Robert Southey, ed.|title=The Works of William Cowper. Comprising His Poems, Correspondence, and Translations. With a Life of the Author by the Editor, Robert Southey, LL.D., Poet Laureate, Etc.|location=London|publisher=H.G. Bohn|year=1853|volume=II|pages=110, 141}}
Output: Robert Southey (1853), "Life of Cowper", in William Cowper; Robert Southey, ed., The Works of William Cowper. Comprising His Poems, Correspondence, and Translations. With a Life of the Author by the Editor, Robert Southey, LL.D., Poet Laureate, Etc., II, London: H.G. Bohn, pp. 110, 141 
You should be able to achieve a similar effect with the {{cite book}} template, as it also has a "chapter" parameter. — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 09:33, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, that's very helpful. It's a lot like what I did with the Boyd reference, reversing author and editor, but yours is better. (Except I don't like the boldface volume numbers the citation templates give for books—I think that's just for journals—so I put volume numbers in titles.) I guess for the other books, I'll use "Preface" or "Notes" or Notes sur «Carmen» as the "chapter" title.
This should come up often, as an apparatus criticus is a great place to find information and commentary on classic books. Should your example be at WP:CITET? —JerryFriedman (Talk) 17:32, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
Feel free to propose that it be included there. :-) By the way, if you're using {{Citation}} and feel that the parameter name "chapter" is inapt, you can also use "contribution" which has the same effect. P.S. What's an "apparatus criticus"? — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 18:20, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
Thanks again. Apparently I don't know what an apparatus criticus is. The WP article, which unpretentiously calls it a "critical apparatus", says it's just the list of variants of a particular passage in a text, possibly with comments on why the editor picked the one he or she did. I knew it in the wider sense of all the material in a scholarly edition that the original author isn't responsible for: introduction, notes, critical essay(s), glossary, author biography, etc. The narrator of Pale Fire uses it in this sense, referring to his Foreword, Commentary, and Index. The dictionaries I looked at agree with our article or are ambiguous. —JerryFriedman (Talk) 00:19, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
Well, I learned something new today. — Cheers, JackLee –talk– 02:59, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Punctuation

Where do you put the punctuation in a reference?

  1. Example 1[7].
  2. Example 2.[8]
  1. ^ Turing, Alan (October 1950), "Computing Machinery and Intelligence", Mind LIX (236): 433–460, doi:10.1093/mind/LIX.236.433, ISSN 0026-4423, http://loebner.net/Prizef/TuringArticle.html, retrieved on 18 August 2008 
  2. ^ Turing 1950, p. 451
  3. ^ Turing, Alan (October 1950), "Computing Machinery and Intelligence", Mind LIX (236): 433–460, doi:10.1093/mind/LIX.236.433, ISSN 0026-4423, http://loebner.net/Prizef/TuringArticle.html, retrieved on 18 August 2008 
  4. ^ Turing 1950, p. 451
  5. ^ Ritter, R. (2002). The Oxford Style Manual. Oxford University Press. ISBN 0-19-860564-1. 
  6. ^ Ritter 2002, p. 45
  7. ^ Example: ref goes before punctuation
  8. ^ Example: ref goes after punctuation

C Teng [talk] 16:57, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Either is acceptable so long as the article is consistent. If you are editing an existing article, conform to the established method on that article if there is one. Christopher Parham