Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Flag Template/Archive 7

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Template:Navy doesn't display navy flag as the documentation says it's supposed to

This was raised by User:Aithus at Template talk:Country data Thailand#Template:Navy displays naval ensign flag from Template:Naval instead of navy flag as shown in the template documentation.

The documentation generated by the Country showdata template says that Template:Navy is supposed to display the navy flag variant when it is specified. But digging through the template dependencies, Template:Navy/core appears to only look for the naval alias and doesn't check for navy at all. I see that the Navy alias was added to the documentation template by User:Illegitimate Barrister in February 2018, but no change appears to have been made to the core template then. --Paul_012 (talk) 11:06, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Navy displays the naval ensign (same as national flag in some countries), Naval dispalys the Navy flag. – Illegitimate Barrister (talk • contribs), 21:08, 13 January 2022 (UTC)
@Illegitimate Barrister: So people will then have to use Navy template to show the flag that is labeled naval and Naval template to show the flag that is labeled navy? That sounds counterintuitive.
Besides Thailand, a few country data templates label their naval ensign as naval and the flag of their Navy (as a branch of armed forces) as navy: Poland, Indonesia, Egypt, Colombia, Albania, etc. Aithus (talk) 22:20, 13 January 2022 (UTC)
The "Navy" template came first, so that's why it's the way it is. Switching it would require replacing every instance of it across Wikipedia. I do agree that it is a bit perplexing for a newbie, yeah. – Illegitimate Barrister (talk • contribs), 21:56, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

To editor Illegitimate Barrister: (see discussion at Template talk:Country showdata#October 2021 edit) it appears that the /core templates, {{Navy/core}} and {{Naval/core}} need to be swapped. I've done so in their sandboxes to produce:

{{naval|Thailand}} ⇒  Royal Thai Navy

{{naval/sandbox|Thailand}} ⇒  Royal Thai Navy

{{navy|Thailand}} ⇒  Royal Thai Navy

{{navy/sandbox|Thailand}} ⇒  Royal Thai Navy

These should only be changed if and when you and others agree that this is the way to fix this. I think it is, but I don't know the history of this as well as you and other editors here. P.I. Ellsworth - ed. put'r there 19:55, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

To editor Paine Ellsworth: Thank you for taking the time to build out a solution. This change is good to me and is more intuitive to use. On the other hand, I think its deployment may swap out intended flags in articles with country data templates that label their naval ensign as naval and the flag of their Navy (as a branch of armed forces) as navy: Poland, Indonesia, Egypt, Colombia, Albania, etc. Especially if their editors had learned and followed the reverse naming scheme instead of using extra parameter like {{navy|Thailand|navy}}. I have no idea how to search for these articles in order to estimate the effort to verify and fix them. Aithus (talk) 15:25, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
Are those all the countries affected, or are there others? If we do make these changes, I suggest that it is done one country at a time and not en masse. Mjroots (talk) 17:49, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
See by the following that they are all backwards:
None of these correspond to the flags that their Country data documentations indicate they should be. (Now, they all correspond. – P.I.E.) Still seems that by swapping out the cores, all will be well. If editors have used workarounds, they will probably still be okay – for example, see {{navy|Thailand|navy}}  Royal Thai Navy vs. {{navy/sandbox|Thailand|navy}}  Royal Thai Navy. P.I. Ellsworth - ed. put'r there 22:45, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Another test would be to use Country data templates to compare the Navy and Naval military ensigns using the core sandboxes in {{Navy/sandbox}} and {{Naval/sandbox}}. If the cores are swapped, then there still should be no differences on the country data pages. I used Albania and Thailand as examples:

Each of the sandboxes calls {{Country showdata/sandbox}}, which calls the Navy and Naval sandboxes with the swapped core templates. The flags do not change from the live templates to the sandboxes, which means that swapping the cores does seem to be the correct next step. P.I. Ellsworth - ed. put'r there 23:47, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

Also, just a gentle reminder that that the core templates' codes should be swapped by a simple series of page moves to correctly preserve edit histories of the pages. I can do that when consensus is clear. P.I. Ellsworth - ed. put'r there 00:08, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

@Paine Ellsworth: - you have my support, subject to doing one at a time and a check that all is still OK following the change. There may be the potential for a large mess-up here, which is why I suggest caution. Mjroots (talk) 11:53, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
To editor Mjroots: it is a good thing to be cautious, and I submit that to exercise caution in this situation means to me to cause the least amount of disruption. That is why I think the core changes should be made as closely to simultaneously as possible. There should be three smooth page moves that involve core #1, core #2 and a holding cell. Move core #1 to a holding cell, move core #2 to core #1, then move the holding cell to core #2. That should fix things while causing the least amount of disruption. P.I. Ellsworth - ed. put'r there 22:00, 21 January 2022 (UTC)
@Paine Ellsworth: ...then check. If all is OK, do next country and repeat. Mjroots (talk) 05:59, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
Would be so much better if Illegitimate Barrister would chime in! P.I. Ellsworth - ed. put'r there 06:44, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
Aye, I support the suggested changes. – Illegitimate Barrister (talk • contribs), 07:13, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
Excellent! and  done. If other editors complain or come to object, we can deal with that as it happens. I'm hopeful and reasonably certain that won't happen. P.I. Ellsworth - ed. put'r there 15:21, 22 January 2022 (UTC)
@Paine Ellsworth: It happens. It seems you ignore most of the navies and it became more bigger issue than it was.-- Comrade John (talk) 18:08, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
I suggest you return it to the previous revisions. You screwed up tons of links/ensigns. I know Mjroots believed they could speak for the project, but this was not run by WP:SHIPS or WP:MILHIST and they speak only for themselves. Llammakey (talk) 18:56, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
Actually, the can of worms that's been opened is necessary because the Country data templates in question on the other talk pages, UK, Canada, New Zealand and so on, do not have "Navy" variants, only "Naval" variants. These must have been the subject of workarounds that now need to be fixed by adding Navy variants to the Country data templates. I'll get on it. P.I. Ellsworth - ed. put'r there 20:38, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
All of the countries mentioned at WT:WikiProject Military history#Template:Navy and at WT:WikiProject Ships#Template:Navy have been fixed, that is, they all now have navy variants where before they only had naval variants. Editors were using the navy template because the naval template didn't work correctly. So those countries that didn't have navy variants would work correctly only because the Navy template core possessed the naval-variant code. All things are now as they should be. If other countries pop up that don't have navy variants, then we just add the navy variants. P.I. Ellsworth - ed. put'r there 21:19, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
Thank you for fixing, it seems adding the navy variants in each Template:country data will be a long task. --Comrade John (talk) 21:55, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
My pleasure! Most Country data templates already have navy variants. So this isn't as big a challenge as it may seem at first glance. It's mainly just the workarounds that editors were using, the bandaids, that will need to be dealt with at this point. No more need for bandaids because the boo boo is healed. P.I. Ellsworth - ed. put'r there 22:02, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
Just found three country data need to adding the navy variants: Template:Country data Argentina, Template:Country data Empire of Japan and Template:Country data Turkey. I don't have the privilege to edit those so please help.-- Comrade John (talk) 22:03, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
 Done, and thank you for your vigilance! P.I. Ellsworth - ed. put'r there 22:29, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
Another five:  Ecuadorian Navy,  Hellenic Navy,  Imperial Chinese Navy,  Bolivarian Navy of Venezuela and  German Navy. More will be added if I found those.-- Comrade John (talk) 22:36, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
Also ,  Regia Marina,  French Navy,  Free French Naval Forces,  Austro-Hungarian Navy,  Imperial German Navy,  Ottoman Navy,  Bulgarian Navy. You really need to check each of the country data to be honest. Comrade John (talk) 22:50, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
 Royal Danish Navy,  Royal Norwegian Navy,  Swedish Navy,  Latvian Naval Forces,  Estonian Navy.--Comrade John (talk) 23:02, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
Last two for now:  Royal Indian Navy and  Indian Navy.-- Comrade John (talk) 23:12, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
All done for now. P.I. Ellsworth - ed. put'r there 23:35, 23 January 2022 (UTC)
...check each of the country data...
 Done – checked all in Category:All country data templates with AWB. P.I. Ellsworth - ed. put'r there 08:13, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
You sure you checked all , nothing more to deal with ?  Manchukuo Imperial Navy ,  Ukrainian Navy --Comrade John (talk) 08:35, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
To editor Comrade John: well, nobody's perfect, not me, not you and not AWB. I set AWB to skip if the code contains "navy", so I could catch those that had no navy alias. Those two contain the word "navy", just not as an alias. There might still be a few of those out there. I'll see if I can devise a way to catch them. P.I. Ellsworth - ed. put'r there 22:36, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
@Paine Ellsworth: on the List of shipwrecks in 1879. Covadonga is displaying the Chilean Navy jack, not its ensign. Mjroots (talk) 11:04, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
To editor Mjroots:  Investigating... P.I. Ellsworth - ed. put'r there 15:22, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
So what about those didn't checked ?-- Comrade John (talk) 17:52, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
To editor Mjroots: interesting reading! See where you've done a lot of good work on that list. As you probably know, that Chilean Navy ship, the Covadonga, recovered from that 1879 incident only to be mined and sunk the next year, which also puts it on the next page, List of shipwrecks in 1880. That later list also sports the Covadonga with the Navy Jack instead of the correct ensign. Since I'm not the expert, hopefully you can tell me what you think we should do. In the '79 list, there is only one usage of the {{Navy}} template, the one for the Covadonga. All the others use either the {{flag}} or the {{flagcountry}} template. So if it's changed for consistency to one of those templates, the main Chilean flag will appear, which is also the Naval ensign. Or, the Navy template could just be changed to the Naval template, which also presently aliases to the correct Naval ensign. Or, another option, and I will cede to your expertise because I have not been able to determine if this would be the right move, the two flag images could be swapped out in the {{Country data Chile}} template. Let me know what you think we should do. And other editors are also welcome to chime in. Whatever we decide, it should also be done on the 1880's list for the Covadonga entry. P.I. Ellsworth - ed. put'r there 19:06, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
@Paine Ellsworth: - if we swap the labels over (which is the fix I suggested for Thailand), in theory it shoud correct the error. The cost of this is that historic versions of articles will dislay the wrong flag. Mjroots (talk) 19:18, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
To editor Mjroots: iirc, what actually worked for Thailand was swapping the cores. For a case like this it might be better if we change the Navy template to template {{Naval}} in order to make the correct ensign appear and retain the military link? P.I. Ellsworth - ed. put'r there 22:43, 24 January 2022 (UTC)
@Paine Ellsworth: - Peru is not displaying correctly -  Peruvian Navy. Mjroots (talk) 16:03, 2 February 2022 (UTC)
To editor Mjroots: yes, that one's a bit confusing. At Peruvian Navy,
Not sure which flag to call with each template. Is there a way to be certain about this? P.I. Ellsworth - ed. put'r there 03:30, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
They need swapping. Mjroots (talk) 20:40, 3 February 2022 (UTC)
Okay then, {{Navy|Peru}} →  Peruvian Navy and {{Naval|Peru}} →  Peruvian Navy. P.I. Ellsworth - ed. put'r there 02:38, 4 February 2022 (UTC)

Dilemma

Here is the dilemma in need of an expert opinion, because I can't tell which is correct. At present the Navy and Naval templates display as follows:

Should these be reversed to appear as follows:

It appears to me that the templates' outputs should be reversed on the {{Country data Chile}} page; however, that is a non-expert opinion in need of expert advice. Please help. P.I. Ellsworth - ed. put'r there 11:20, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

The flag of Chile is the ensign and should be the one that displays for the Chilean Navy as the default. So yes, reverse them. Similarly the South Korean one is inversed too. The jack currently displays when the navy template is used. Llammakey (talk) 15:03, 26 January 2022 (UTC)
Okay, those changes have been made as follows:
Thank you so much, editor Llammakey, for your help with these military ensigns! P.I. Ellsworth - ed. put'r there 19:37, 26 January 2022 (UTC)

"Flags" of the Roman Empire/Republic

Hello everybody, regarding the Template:Country data Roman Empire and Template:Country data Roman Republic, they associate the Roman Empire and the Roman Republic with a wealth of "flags" that are either historical inaccurate or never used as a symbol of the State:

  •  Roman Republic: this is red square with a golden wreath and the letters "SPQR". As a flag/vexillum never existed;
  •  Roman Empire: same as above, but for the Roman Empire;
  •  Roman Empire: same red square with golden wreath and letters, just with the eagle and a fringe. Never existed as a flag, the eagle was a symbol of a legion, never of the State
  •  Roman Empire: this is historically accurate (mostly, the three dots should be portratis of Constantine and his sons). But it was Constantine personal symbol, not of the State (there was only one of these);
  •  Roman Empire: this is just a chi-rho, never a flag, never a symbol of the Empire.

It is therefore factually inaccurate to associate the Roman Republic and the Roman Empire with these symbols, they should be removed. --MassimoDellaPena (talk) 09:06, 17 December 2021 (UTC)

It seems there aren't many uses of these "flags": Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:Country data Roman Empire currently shows 38 in mainspace and Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:Country data Roman Republic shows 6. At a glance I do agree most (or maybe all) don't really serve a useful purpose and could be removed. Adumbrativus (talk) 07:37, 8 February 2022 (UTC)
Concur. The articles using them representatively as flags also should be changed, either by removal or, if we are really really wedded to having some visual shorthand, by adding large disclaimers. Ifly6 (talk) 19:51, 17 February 2022 (UTC)

Requested move at Template talk:Country data Ryukyu#Requested move 16 April 2022

There is a requested move discussion at Template talk:Country data Ryukyu#Requested move 16 April 2022 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Favonian (talk) 11:04, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

Codes for different countries in the country data templates

Hello! Can you add different codes for countries in the country data templates for example ISO and FIFA codes. That is not silly mainly because they use different country codes. Yours sincerely, Sondre 88.88.4.178 (talk) 20:14, 9 August 2022 (UTC)

Flag template for Commonwealth of Nations

The flag for the Commonwealth of Nations keeps getting removed as non-free, is it possible that a Wikimedia Commons roughly recreated icon can be used as the flag alias to solve this problem? See revision history Template:Country data Commonwealth of Nations

-- Rauisuchian (talk) 02:55, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Movement

How do i move the flagdeco one? im trying to use it like a topicon. if there is an actual topicon for this, please tell me. also the flag is norway if that helps. Allaoii (talk) 19:03, 24 October 2022 (UTC)

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