Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Southeast Asia/Archive 7

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Downcasing "Province"

Per discussions, we downcased "Province" to "province" in all the Category:Provinces of Vietnam articles and related. But so far not in Category:Provinces of Laos or Category:Provinces of Cambodia or Category:Provinces of Thailand, which do appear to follow the same pattern in sources (capped only half the time, and often without province, as it's not part of the proper name). So, any objection to going ahead and doing the same with these? Any other countries in Southeast Asia to include? Dicklyon (talk) 17:38, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

For the Philippines and Indonesia, this does not apply, since we leave the redundant "province" completely out (provinces are rarely named after their capital), following usage in English-language reliable sources. The only exception is Mountain Province where capitalized "Province" is an integral part of the proper name in Filipino and English). –Austronesier (talk) 18:32, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
Agreed. Dicklyon (talk) 19:53, 28 November 2021 (UTC)
Yes, there is objection, for Thailand at least. This needs to be separately discussed for each country, as they're covered differently in reliable sources. There's no overarching need to enforce a manufactured consistency on article titles of different subject areas. --Paul_012 (talk) 07:58, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
That's why I'm asking. Agree "no overarching need to enforce a manufactured consistency on article titles of different subject areas". Tell us about Thailand (I only sampled one province there, and don't recall which). Dicklyon (talk) 17:03, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
While the word province is often omitted when the context is clear, the full names are regarded as specific proper nouns, or at least the original Thai names and their direct romanisations are. This is reflected by the Royal Society's directory of proper nouns,[1] which lists each of the provinces with their prefixes, i.e. "Changwat Krabi". As province is the direct translation for the Thai term changwat, I think translated names should be treated the same way. While sources are inconsistent, Google Ngrams show capital Province to have long been much more common in most cases, though the gap does appear to be closing. Recent news sources appear to prefer decapitalising the term, and there is of course room for debate. But any renaming proposal for Thai provinces must be considered together with all the district and subdistrict articles, lest a larger inconsistency be created among Thailand's administrative divisions instead. --Paul_012 (talk) 18:00, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
Yes, I understand that some will want to cap "Province" as a direct translation of Changwat. But the source you linked does not do so, and most sources (per my estimate) also don't cap it. The caps we see in books, news, etc., are most often from title-case things like article titles, table entries, headings, map labels, and addresses, not use in sentences, which is what we go by, per MOS:CAPS. It's consistently lowercase, at these sites, for example: tourismthailand.org, renown-travel.com, statoids.com, cnn.com, time.com, usnews.com, smartraveller.gov.au, and bangkokpost.com. And consistently capped at many fewer as far as I can find (lonelyplanet.com and healthqual.ucsf.edu). Dicklyon (talk) 20:57, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
Good idea on the District and other capitalizations, too. I haven't gotten to that (it will be easier after Province is resolved). Dicklyon (talk) 20:59, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
(edit conflict)The pattern for most or all provinces of Thailand is Foo Province, with a corresponding article Foo for its administrative capital. Looking at it, "Province" serves as a disambiguator here and should in theory be downcased. Unless the majority of sources treat "Province" as part of the name and capitalize it. What about the names in Thai? Is จังหวัด an integral part of the name, or also just an disambiguator?
Just for fun, I have looked up four arbitrarily selected provinces in Google Books Ngram Viewer: Phetchaburi, Chiang Mai, Nonthaburi, Satun. Not really encouraging... –Austronesier (talk) 18:03, 29 November 2021 (UTC)
Indeed, they all show very mixed capping. And looking into books, it's pretty clear that the context of capping is often tables and headings, not in sentences. Dicklyon (talk) 20:36, 1 December 2021 (UTC)
Couldn't you just remove "province" altogether? "Province" is an English term anyway, the name of the province matters more so than the demonyn. And these countries in South East Asia are different culturally, you grouping them all together as if they are the same and similar isn't right. Please be more open minded.Norewritingofhistory (talk • contribs) 12:09, 30 November 2021 (UTC)
Yes, in many cases you could just remove Province; primary redirects exist in many such cases, e.g. Bokeo –> Bokeo Province. In many other cases, such as Attapeu Province, removing Province would be ambiguous with its capital city Attapeu. In situations like this, a convention with a bit of "unnecessary disambiguation" is often preferred, as in WP:USPLACE where we conventionally include state names even when city names would be unambiguous, to make the titles more recognizable as US city names. Similarly, including "province" makes the title more recognizable as a province name as opposed to something else. I have no strong opinion about whether this is the best convention here, but it is clearly the convention that we have, and I doubt there's much appetite to change it. Dicklyon (talk) 19:02, 30 November 2021 (UTC)
In the case of Category:Provinces of Indonesia, omitting the word "province" is exactly what's done (Philippines similarly, as stated above). And Malaysia, Myanmar, Singapore, East Timor, and Brunei don't have provinces. So I think we'll finish after Thailand. Dicklyon (talk) 02:29, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

I'm about done with Laos and Cambodia (except for getting the Category names' caps fixed). It looks to me like Thailand should follow, based on sources and this discussion. Any objections? Dicklyon (talk) 06:10, 2 December 2021 (UTC)

Please start full RM discussions that cover all the affected articles, as is the proper procedure, so that interested editors who may be watching the articles but not this WikiProject discussion page may get notified. For Thailand, I'd recommend as above to include district and subdistrict articles as well. --Paul_012 (talk) 13:15, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
I started a multi-RM at Talk:Amnat Charoen Province#Requested move 2 December 2021, listing the first 10 provinces and discussing the need to extend to districts. It's not practical to list them all or to lay the execution on a discussion closer. Working through all the districts is going to take some time; I'm working on how to semi-automate that now. Dicklyon (talk) 18:25, 2 December 2021 (UTC)
I'm not seeing much in the way of sub-district (Tambon) articles that need work. Let me know if I'm missing something. Dicklyon (talk) 04:34, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

I got all the Categories moved to follow the article title downcasing of province (e.g. "Category:Geography of XXX province", "Category:People from XXX province") for Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, and Thailand. If anyone sees anything I missed, let us know. Or if there are other countries for which province is not capped, let us know. Dicklyon (talk) 01:44, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

Districts

These will take longer, as there are so many of them. I've collected a list of 1843 candidate district titles (from Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, and Thailand) at User:Dicklyon/Districts; these don't include titles of districts that don't use "District" in their titles, and may have missed some others, and almost certainly have some false hits given how I collected them. List of district-level subdivisions in Vietnam shows 663 districts in Vietnam, but I'm not a good enough hacker to extract those names from there. If the other countries have something like that, I haven't found it. If anyone wants to help collect and process over-capped District titles, let me know. Dicklyon (talk) 02:17, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

For the actual moving, I had some good luck getting admin/bot help some years ago; see Wikipedia:AutoWikiBrowser/Tasks/Archive 9#Admin help wanted. So I'll plan to ask there again after a move list is assembled and we have a solid consensus. With the same list, I can handle cleanup editing with some help from JWB. For the provinces, it's not so much that admin/bot help is needed (though maybe I could still use some to finish up...). Dicklyon (talk) 05:49, 3 December 2021 (UTC)

I'm working on collecting lists of districts for the same four countries. No objections to downcasing district for all those, I presume? There are many hundreds, so I have to find some help to automate after verifying the list. I'll post lists here when I have them. Dicklyon (talk) 01:44, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

Here's the move list for Thailand (which is where the majority of districts are):

Extended content

Starting with a handful of disambiguated ones:

And the rest, Bangkok first, then the provinces:

And here for Vietnam:

Extended content

Districts in Vietnam

And a short list for Cambodia, where most of the district articles don't include the word District, and some districts are called sections:

Extended content

And finally Laos districts:

Extended content

If someone would give these a quick scan and see if they look OK, that would be appreciated. Dicklyon (talk) 22:55, 9 January 2022 (UTC)

A few more, which were not in the list above, because I had picked up redirects to them from the list articles instead:

And I moved 10 with both "district" and "province" downcased, by hand, to avoid complications. Dicklyon (talk) 22:23, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

Discussion at Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/TolBot 13

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Bots/Requests for approval/TolBot 13. Tol (talk | contribs) @ 23:11, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

FAR for Ketuanan Melayu

I have nominated Ketuanan Melayu for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Z1720 (talk) 16:00, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Moving Brunei out of the WikiProject SEA template and into its own.

I would like to reach a consensus and gather advice on your thoughts on moving wikiproject Brunei to using its own template. Commenting relevant advice and guides would be helpful :D

@Nathanielcwm: The issue I would see is that there are so few editors working in the relevant space, a separate template does not have much use. Quite a few Southeast Asian Wikiprojects have little to no activity. This place isn't much better, but it might have a bit more potential than individual pages. CMD (talk) 23:40, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Linking New Article to this Wiki-Project

I am a student who is currently working on the stub Stilts in architecture article. The majority of sources that I will be using will be from South East Asian communities and a large section includes description of how stilts in architecture relate to several cultures in South East Asia. I would like to link my article to this WikiProject as I do not come from any of these cultures or have firsthand experience and wanted some potential editors to check and validate my work when it is put up. Please be patient and understanding, I am new to Wikipedia editing. DanielekBociarski (talk) 23:54, 29 March 2022 (UTC).

FAR for Hawksbill sea turtle

I have nominated Hawksbill sea turtle for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. OnlyFixingProse (talk) 22:40, 31 March 2022 (UTC)

FAR for Durian

I have nominated Durian for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Hog Farm Talk 17:37, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

Indochinese tiger feedback request

Your feedback would be appreciated at Talk:Indochinese tiger#Distribution map query. BrightOrion (talk) 14:23, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

User script to detect unreliable sources

Main page: User:Headbomb/unreliable

I have (with the help of others) made a small user script to detect and highlight various links to unreliable sources and predatory journals. Some of you may already be familiar with it, given it is currently the 39th most imported script on Wikipedia. The idea is that it takes something like

  • John Smith "Article of things" Deprecated.com. Accessed 2020-02-14. (John Smith "[https://www.deprecated.com/article Article of things]" ''Deprecated.com''. Accessed 2020-02-14.)

and turns it into something like

It will work on a variety of links, including those from {{cite web}}, {{cite journal}} and {{doi}}.

The script is mostly based on WP:RSPSOURCES, WP:NPPSG and WP:CITEWATCH and a good dose of common sense. I'm always expanding coverage and tweaking the script's logic, so general feedback and suggestions to expand coverage to other unreliable sources are always welcomed.

Do note that this is not a script to be mindlessly used, and several caveats apply. Details and instructions are available at User:Headbomb/unreliable. Questions, comments and requests can be made at User talk:Headbomb/unreliable.

- Headbomb {t · c · p · b}

This is a one time notice and can't be unsubscribed from. Delivered by: MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 16:02, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

FAR for Battle of Dien Bien Phu

I have nominated Battle of Dien Bien Phu for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Hog Farm Talk 19:00, 4 June 2022 (UTC)

GAR notice

Cambodia women's national football team has been nominated for a community good article reassessment. If you are interested in the discussion, please participate by adding your comments to the reassessment page. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status may be removed from the article. PCN02WPS (talk | contribs) 17:13, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

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