Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Visual arts/Archive 18

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Iva Honyestewa

Would someone mind assessing Iva Honyestewa? It was created about a week ago and did not go through AfC. It's also been nominated for DYK so it probably should be checked to make sure it's OK and the subject is Wikipedia notable. -- Marchjuly (talk) 08:05, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

Interesting article and topic with potential. I'm a bit sceptical myself that the claim is adequately cited that her invention is "the first major innovation in Hopi basket weaving in generations". A lot of the claims seem to be from Honystewa herself. Though the jurors of the Wilma Kaemlein Memorial Acquisition Award describe her winning basket as "unique" and "a truly unique piece if artwork" they don't call it a 'pootsaya'. It might be difficult to get that past DYK.
The personal information and claims about family and friends need citations to show the information is in the public realm. Sionk (talk) 12:20, 29 July 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for taking a look Sionk. I tried cleaning up a bit, but it probably needs some more work before it's ready for DYK. -- Marchjuly (talk) 15:32, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

I have cleaned up all citation questions (adding new references and re-citing already existing ones) and clarified language in both the article and the DYK. Also, the citation which contains the Museum expert's comments regarding the "unique"ness of the basket clearly and directly states that they are discussing the "Spider Web - Poostaya by Iva Honyestewa, Hopi / Diné (Navajo)." Hope this helps your concerns Thanks! Skistud (talk) 23:40, 31 July 2017 (UTC)

Yerusalem Wedding

Article is about the painting Yerusalem Wedding. It's completely unsourced, and has been tagged as such since created back in 2014. It doesn't seem to meet WP:GNG, but is there some more specific guideline that is used to access the notability of paintings or other works of art? -- Marchjuly (talk) 05:42, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Confederate monuments and memorials

Not everyone appreciates that I created these redirects, but regardless, I'm working to identify potentially missing Wikipedia articles about Confederate monuments and memorials. If any project members are interested in helping, here's a list of articles for consideration: Talk:List_of_monuments_and_memorials_of_the_Confederate_States_of_America#Articles_to_create. ---Another Believer (Talk) 01:27, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Considering creating new article

Hello everyone! I just got through the main Photography related articles. I see that nobody has ever created "Photography types". In all F.A. universities this is a huge topic. I was thinking to create the article and describe and reference and exemplify all major photography types. Do you think it would be useful or everything is already covered in the main article (Photography). Robert G. (talk) 12:58, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

I'm not quite sure what you are referring to. Do you mean the kinds of subjects listed under Category:Photographs_by_topic, or the genres listed in the Template:Photography?

Selected exhibitions

What is the consensus about the inclusion of a list of selected exhibitions that has no sources in artists' biographies? Here is just one example; there are many such articles. While reviewing new pages, I came upon Belkis Ramírez, which contains a list that is a 1/1 copy of the list of Selected Exhibitions at her gallery's website. Should it be removed as a copyvio? Should the list be retained, even though it appears to be more a comprehensive than selective, or trimmed down to include only exhibitions in notable galleries/museums? Should only exhibitions that can be sourced independently and reliably be included per WP:SOURCELIST? Thanks, Mduvekot (talk) 21:45, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

@Mduvekot, to my knowledge there isn't a MOS page on this, but regardless, I'd side with your instinct in this case. In contemporary biographies, I normally only cover what I can reference from reliable, secondary sources (not press releases, not gallery's site, not CV), as the secondary coverage indicates that the exhibition was important to critics, not only the artist/gallery. As for your case, if the list is a direct copy from elsewhere, delete as copyvio, and if a handful of exhibitions were noteworthy enough to be reviewed, reference each item in the list (e.g., Nadia Kaabi-Linke#Selected exhibitions). Some bios won't even warrant "Selected exhibition" sections—depends on culture/era, and whether a sourced list would help the reader. czar 00:42, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Leonardo da Vinci

Eyes needed on the talk re a slant. And unfortunately Amanda is retired. Ceoil (talk) 11:00, 26 August 2017 (UTC)

Woof! woof!

A couple of CFD's with considerable implications for large numbers of art categories. Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2017_August_25#Category:Dogs_in_art and Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2017_August_20#Category:Dogs_in_paintings_by_Titian. Comments needed. Johnbod (talk) 16:34, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Images of stolen paintings for 1972 Montreal Museum of Fine Arts robbery

I recently finished creating this article about Canada's biggest art theft (and biggest theft of private property ever, actually), in preparation for the 45th anniversary on Labor Day (just as it was in 1972) and a hopeful DYK hook on the main page.

I included in the article a list of the 18 stolen paintings:

Can anyone here help find images of all these? I have only been able to find, on Commons, images of the de Heem Still life: Vanitas and the Rembrandt (and that one is not very good, from his 1968 catalogue raisonnée). It would be nice to have a gallery of all these, like we do at Isabella Stewart Gardner Museum theft.

Perhaps there are some online that are better than the black-and-white images found here. The same author of that site has also written an article for the Journal of Art Crime about the case (see pp. 57–63); the latter two pages of which have a list of the stolen paintings including books in which the works are reproduced from which we might be able to obtain better scans. I would imagine that a good art library might have one or more of those books. Daniel Case (talk) 16:45, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

American historians and diffusion

Category:American historians is marked for diffusion and until earlier today, several subcategories by topic (altho not all), such as Category:American art historians were marked as non-diffusing. Obviously, this is a contradiction. I started out by taking the non-diffusing categories and putting them in the parent category and received some feedback questioning it. I have since removed the parent category and the non-diffusing tags (adding them back would be trivial, of course). I suggested that an alternate scheme for diffusing the parent Category:American historians may be by state and made a couple of these categories as a start: Category:Historians from California and Category:Historians from Pennsylvania. I am offering two questions to this WikiProject:

  1. Should subtopic categories of Category:American historians be marked as non-diffusing?
  2. Should Category:American historians be diffused by state?

@Johnbod:, @Philafrenzy:, who posted to my talk. Please {{Ping}} me if you need me directly for this conversation. Note that I will happily edit the categories however the community decides but that at the moment, Category:American historians is diffused by topic as it was 24 hours ago and there are only the two categories by state which I am not populating until I get more feedback. I will continue diffusing Category:American historians by century, which is a pre-existing scheme. ―Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 17:26, 3 September 2017 (UTC)

I don't see why the category should need to be non-diffusing—if sources identify the individual solely as an art historian, that category is sufficient. If they do other types of history—types that are not represented by existing categories—they can also be added to the generic category as a catch all. But isn't the point to diffuse down to specific types of history whenever possible? The redundancy of adding "American historian" to every "American art historian" is a simple redundancy. Diffusion by state similarly appears to be overkill. The granularity of the Category:American people by occupation by state categories is a redundant intersection: the individual would still be categorized as an "American architect" and "Architect from Kansas"... In our case, it also creates all kinds of multiple category issues, especially as academics often transfer between institutions across state lines. Better to cat as "American art historian" and "People from Topeka". Also, in general, I'd try to confirm the "non-diffusing" status of large categories before making lots of edits on them. Saves everyone the time both in fixing edits and watchlist notifications. czar 19:45, 3 September 2017 (UTC)
Sorry, I was copying a post from Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_History#American_historians_and_diffusion, and should have linked to that to keep everything in one place. I will copy Czar's comment there - please add any more there too. Johnbod (talk) 01:33, 4 September 2017 (UTC)

Statues in the National Statuary Hall Collection

Project members are invited to create and expand articles about individual statues within the National Statuary Hall Collection. See the following link for discussion: Talk:National_Statuary_Hall_Collection#Standalone_article_for_each_sculpture. Thanks! ---Another Believer (Talk) 20:41, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

See also: List of sculptures in the National Statuary Hall Collection

Infoboxes

There is a discussion at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Arts#Migrating_art_infoboxes_to_wikidata on whether present infoboxes for works of visual art should be removed in favour of Wikidata. Kablammo (talk) 13:10, 8 September 2017 (UTC)

I disagree with Czar; it should be discussed and decided by the Arts project. Kablammo (talk) 18:23, 11 September 2017 (UTC)
? Decisions about a template are usually done at its talk page, as that's where the editors who maintain it would need to see prior discussions. Any editor—arts project or otherwise—is welcome to contribute there czar 20:01, 11 September 2017 (UTC)

Starting the Met Weekly Challenge: The Horse Fair + help pick future collaborations

Rosa Bonheur's The Horse Fair has been chosen as the first-ever Met Weekly Challenge, starting today, for the coming week. There are a lot of resources at the artwork's Met Collection record (see 'Catalogue Entry'), and also lists of other references. We could also benefit from the French Wikipedia version and Commons:Category:The Horse Fair — see the section for Week 1: The Horse Fair (Sept 25 - Oct 1) for more on how to participate, or just get started editing!

I also very much encourage folks to share and vote for your ideas on future collaborations!--Pharos (talk) 18:41, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

WikiProject Women in Red/The World Contest

Hi. In November The Women in Red World Contest is being held to try to produce new articles for as many countries worldwide and occupations as possible. There will be over $4000 in prizes to win, including Amazon vouchers and paid subscriptions. If this would appeal to you and you think you'd be interested in contributing new articles on women artists during this month please sign up in the participants section. If you're not interested in prize money yourself but are willing to participate and raise money to buy books about women for others to use, this is also fine. Help would also be appreciated in drawing up the lists of missing articles. If you think of any missing articles for your project please add them to the appropriate sub list Missing articles. Thankyou, and if taking part, good luck!♦ Dr. Blofeld 10:14, 16 October 2017 (UTC)

Wikipedia Asian Art Month with Metropolitan Museum of Art

New article: An 18th century Suzuri-bako depicting a warbler in a plum tree. Done in lacquered wood with gold and silver.

I'd like to invite folks to join Wikipedia Asian Art Month; if you write or translate just one article and include one of our images, you'll get a special Metropolitan Museum of Art postcard. And if you're one of the grand prize winners, you'll get a Met guidebook or Asian art publication.--Pharos (talk) 20:10, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

👍 Like ---Another Believer (Talk) 20:45, 16 November 2017 (UTC)

The list of partcipants is ... impressive

Thanks ( Martin | talk • contribs 18:54, 25 November 2017 (UTC))

Category:Historians of Indian art

I've set this up - please add anyone who is missing & has an article. Or, of course, write a new article - George Michell would be good. Johnbod (talk) 05:11, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

Disambiguation links on pages tagged by this wikiproject

Wikipedia has many thousands of wikilinks which point to disambiguation pages. It would be useful to readers if these links directed them to the specific pages of interest, rather than making them search through a list. Members of WikiProject Disambiguation have been working on this and the total number is now below 20,000 for the first time. Some of these links require specialist knowledge of the topics concerned and therefore it would be great if you could help in your area of expertise.

A list of the relevant links on pages which fall within the remit of this wikiproject can be found at http://69.142.160.183/~dispenser/cgi-bin/topic_points.py?banner=WikiProject_Visual_arts

Please take a few minutes to help make these more useful to our readers.— Rod talk 19:57, 3 December 2017 (UTC)

Warhol Soup Cans

N.B.- the subject of this discussion is one of 20 paintings listed among the Wikipedia:Vital articles/Expanded/Arts.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06
15, 20 November 2017 (UTC)

TonyTheTiger (talk · contribs) suggested I post this here, since it's a question involving a possible re-statement of a key piece of information in the extremely stable Campbell's Soup Cans featured article. When I first read the article and saw the 1962 works described as silkscreens, it ruffled my sense of the pictures from looking at them at MoMA. They have a folksy sweetness that just seems handmade. But the longevity of the description in the article made me wonder. Digging in, I found two articles on the MoMA web site that describe them as hand-painted (12, click on "additional text" for label copy from a 2015 show). The 2004 Warhol painting and sculpture Catalogue Raisonné explores how Warhol may have traced the pencil lines in the can forms that are now mostly underneath the paint onto the canvases before painting them in. It concludes he either projected his drawing or used a stencil to guide his lines (both are techniques he used in pictures whose making is better documented). For the lettering, they are confident he projected his drawings. I have not come across non-web sources that suggest the pictures were silkscreened.

Apologizes for the play-by-play. In deference to the fact that statement about silkscreening in the article has held up for ten years, I wanted to be clear that I did not come at the question with a hard opinion. Thanks in advance for your thoughts on whether or how this information should be incorporated into the article. KR26740 (talk) 16:57, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

That sounds right to me, Tony. Unfortunately, neither SandyGeorgia nor Tyrenius are around any more. Johnbod (talk) 16:33, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
Not around The “Featured” process, anyway :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 02:53, 8 December 2017 (UTC)
Here's another source (skip down to the third paragraph) confirming that the 1962 Soup Cans are hand painted (oil and pencil per MoMA and LACMA, or casein and pencil according to some sources). Warhol made silkscreens of the same subject in 1968 but they're larger in size, 35-1/2 x 23-1/8 in. (90.2 x 58.7 cm), seen here. The existence of the second series might account for the error going undetected for so long. Ewulp (talk) 03:50, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
I think it is unlikely that Warhol totally hand painted 32 canvases displaying similarity of image to the degree seen here. More likely in my opinion is a combination of mechanical and hand techniques. There might be people capable of answering this question in the line of authenticating Warhol work in the sense of distinguishing them from forgeries. I thought to email the Andy Warhol Art Authentication Board but it seems to no longer exist. Bus stop (talk) 04:26, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
Only an expert focussed on the specific questions involving the materials and techniques used by Warhol in making these paintings should be trusted in this matter. If there remains a question as to how these works were made, due to conflicting sources, we should omit information pertaining to this, or we should mention the various suggestions found in sources. Bus stop (talk) 05:09, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
By the way, I think "hand painted" is some crap a salesman spouts out if he thinks "silkscreened" sounds less impressive. Bus stop (talk) 05:16, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
Bus stop, it is my understanding that when there is a lot of content in the public domain of controversial nature, the responsibility of WP is to summarize the content rather than omit it. We are a tertiary resource and we summarize secondary resources. Furthermore, we don't establish our own subset of reliable sources for a topic. A reliable source on art is a WP:RS regardless of whether they are a Warhol specialist.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 06:25, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
I said "...or we should mention the various suggestions found in sources" and I didn't say we "establish our own subset of reliable sources". Bus stop (talk) 07:07, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
Footnote 2 in Corita Kent and the Language of Pop (linked above) explains his method: "A penciled template was transferred onto the canvas, its contours then meticulously filled in with a brush, and the fleur-de-lis details along the bottom were impressed with hand-carved rubber stamps. Warhol abandoned the brush for the silkscreen in August 1962, as the Ferus exhibition was closing. For a thorough account of Warhol's methods, see Marco Livingstone, "Do It Yourself: Notes on Warhol's Techniques," in Andy Warhol: A Retrospective, ed. Kynaston McShine (New York: Museum of Modern Art, 1989)" Ewulp (talk) 06:03, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
And there we have a contradiction. The main text in that source is saying "the 1962 series predates his adoption of the silkscreen" while the footnote in that source is saying "Warhol abandoned the brush for the silkscreen in August 1962". I guess the possibility exists that 1962 was a transitional year for Warhol concerning his use of silkscreening. Bus stop (talk) 07:26, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
This is consistent with the description at the 1st MoMA link provided by KR26740 above. According to MoMA the medium is synthetic polymer, and the lack of uniformity is noted ("As we look, unexpected inconsistencies among these hand-painted canvases begin to emerge"). The paintings being only 20 x 16 inches, Warhol could hardly have required more than four hours to finish one even while watching TV; nothing about this seems implausible. Ewulp (talk) 07:24, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
Except the part about watching TV. That seems implausible. Bus stop (talk) 07:30, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
That detail comes from Warhol: The Biography by Victor Bockris, p.148. Ewulp (talk) 08:06, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
That what—he painted while watching television? Bus stop (talk) 08:11, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
Yes. 08:53, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
Oh, I see: "I saw him do a lot of drawings watching TV with the pad on his knees with his legs crossed, his mother standing there holding the shoe while he drew it. And then..." Drawing may not be comparable to painting. Bus stop (talk) 09:10, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
The link (here it is again) describes Irving Blum finding Warhol painting the 16th of the Campbell's Soup series while "kneeling next to the glowing television", etc. Undoubtedly he wasn't giving the TV his full attention; the point is he could paint the same image 32 times while keeping himself entertained, and there's no reason he couldn't have finished the whole job in a few weeks. Nothing about this seems implausible. Ewulp (talk) 09:58, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
The source doesn't have him painting while watching TV. It has him painting with a "glowing" TV in the vicinity. His eyeballs are not glued to the TV set.
The execution of these works employ partially freehand and partially mechanical techniques. In part they are painted by hand and in part they are mechanically produced. The mechanical means possibly used include stencils, stamps, and templates. We have to be realistic about the limitations of our knowledge. Bus stop (talk) 13:47, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
  • My apologies for not putting this point in my first comment. The statements in the Wikipedia article about the works being silkscreened are not clearly sourced, and are not supported by any references I have looked at, both listed in the article and otherwise. Looking at the edit history, it seems to be something that worked itself into the article text early on and was never systematically questioned. In the literature about the paintings, the open questions relate to which specific non-silkscreen processes he used to lay out each canvas. MoMA is the permanent repository of the works and a leading center of scholarship on 20th century art. Their description of the works as hand-painted, supported by the Warhol Catalogue Raisonné authors, and several exhibition catalogues that discuss these pictures specifically, seems to me a credible consensus that the works are not silkscreened. KR26740 (talk) 17:32, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
But nor are they simply "hand painted". Hand painting is reliably sourced as part of the process used to bring the works into existence. Also reliably sourced is the use of stamps and templates. I would not be surprised if some use of silkscreening were not employed too, but that remains to be reliably sourced therefore I agree with those that are saying that the article should not say only silkscreening, and probably should not say silkscreening at all unless a reliable source suggests this. Bus stop (talk) 17:41, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
At the present time numerous sentences allude to or imply the work is a screen-print. It might be preferable to address materials and techniques just once in the article. I think we can provide support in sources for saying that unlike later Campbell's soup can paintings produced by Warhol these seem to have been largely handmade with only minimal recourse to mechanical means of production. We can briefly mention that lettering seems to have been facilitated by a projected image, and that the guidelines used to initiate the paintings may have been traced by pencil from a template or stencil, and that the "fleur-de-lis details along the bottom were impressed with hand-carved rubber stamps". Bus stop (talk) 14:14, 21 November 2017 (UTC)
Thanks, all. I have notes on a lot of this from when I initially brought the question up with TonyTheTiger and will put them into the article with updates from this discussion. KR26740 (talk) 17:34, 25 November 2017 (UTC)
KR26740, I'll be watching.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 23:54, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

There is some limited discussion on the article's talk page from June 2012, when someone made a similar comment, i.e. that the canvases were hand painted not silk screen printed. The article is almost the same today as it was back in 2012, and indeed in 2007, and is probably due a thorough review against the sources. Surely there is some new scholarly work done in the last 10 years to add (the work was 45 years old in 2017, so another 10 years represents about a fifth or a quarter of the work's life!)

Vital articles

On another tack, why is The Death of Socrates one of just 20 paintings listed at Wikipedia:Vital articles/Expanded/Arts? Is is even the best or most famous work by Jacques-Louis David, compared to say his Oath of the Horatii or The Death of Marat or Napoleon Crossing the Alps? It also appears as one of just 8 (eight!) paintings at meta:List of articles every Wikipedia should have/Expanded/Arts. The Western/European systemic bias and recentism in those lists is appalling. (The selection of sculptures is hardly much better.) (unsigned)

I agree, that's just wierd. It does get more views than I would have expected though, about as many as Oath of the Horatii Johnbod (talk) 16:38, 30 November 2017 (UTC)

Recruitment tool

I don't know how many people saw this. Since things have been trending quieter here, it might be a good idea. Thoughts? Johnbod (talk) 19:38, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

The Immaculate Conception Paintings by El Greco

Saw this in passing as it lacks a Wikidata item. Rated C class, there is no title in the lead section? Jane (talk) 11:00, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

Link please, so we know what you are talking about. There is no Immaculate Conception Paintings by El Greco. Johnbod (talk) 16:53, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
You forgot the "The" part: The Immaculate Conception Paintings by El Greco. Jane (talk) 17:02, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
No Jane, you forgot tgo give a frigging link, like you usually do! Johnbod (talk) 17:42, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

Draft:Paint mixing

It occurs to me that Draft:Paint mixing is relevant to this project. Cheers! bd2412 T 21:04, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

GEOMETRISM

Geometrism is a Pioneering movement in Art & Design in which Geometry & Mathematics is the guiding force... See: http://geometric-art.com It started in St. Ives in Cornwall, U.K. in 2010 and is now a global art movement involving: Art/Crafts, Engineering, Architecture and applied art in general...https://www.pinterest.nz/PeteMcclure/geometrism/ https://fineartamerica.com/groups/geometrism.html https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sih13P6SKwk — Preceding unsigned comment added by Peterhugomcclure (talk • contribs) 22:12, 29 December 2017 (UTC)

location of I Know...Brad

There has been some controversy over the location of I Know...Brad. I have reverted the change as unsourced, but it actually sounds like it might have been legitimate based on the edit summary.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:30, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

I Know How You Must Feel, Brad… is part of the Ludwig Collection and is on display in the Ludwig Forum für Internationale Kunst Aachen per http://lichtensteinfoundation.org/view-in-museums/ Mduvekot (talk) 13:02, 3 January 2018 (UTC)

People's Bike Library of Portland

Resolved

I've (co-)nominated People's Bike Library of Portland for Good article status, if any project members are interested in reviewing. Thanks! ---Another Believer (Talk) 22:47, 7 January 2018 (UTC)

Arty student project pages to check through

This is a bunch of 2017 student project pages, listing the articles they are supposed to have worked on. It would be good to check through these, checking that any changes are actually improvements, which is by no means inevitable. I've found the Duke courses generally pretty good work - others not so much. Often nothing has in fact been done. If anyone knows any other lists, please add here - Category:Dashboard.wikiedu.org course pages is supposed to include them all, but perhaps does not. Also that is a big unsorted rag bag, & I may well have missed some. Thanks to anyone helping! Johnbod (talk) 19:20, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

Johnbod (talk) 19:13, 11 January 2018 (UTC)

Sam Houston (sculpture), Houston, Texas

Page watchers may be interested in updating the Sam Houston (sculpture) article. I don't really appreciate the comment an editor left on the talk page recently, but regardless, the article could use some improvements. Thanks for your consideration. ---Another Believer (Talk) 17:34, 14 January 2018 (UTC)

Sourcing on Watercolor painting

Are the sources listed at Talk:Watercolor painting#Sources and external links reliable? Jjjjjjdddddd (talk) 04:34, 29 January 2018 (UTC)

Alice Walton

Hi! I posted a message over at WikiProject Arts the other day, but figured I could drop a note here, too. There is an edit request for the Art section of Alice Walton, the art collector and chairwoman of the Crystal Bridges Museum of American Art. I will not direct edit the page because I have a Wikipedia:Conflict of interest, which I disclosed on my user page and declared on Talk:Alice Walton. I created a proposed update that tidies up the existing content and includes appropriate sourcing. I appreciate any help from the community to review and update the section if they agree. Thanks, Kt2011 (Talk · COI:Walton family) 21:20, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

GAN: William Bliss Baker

William Bliss Baker has been nominated as a possible Good article. You are invited to review the article based on the good article criteria by using these instructions. You can start the review process by following the "start review" link found near the top of the article's talk page. Thanks for your time! ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 00:06, 13 January 2018 (UTC)

Still looking for help with this nomination. If you have a few minutes, it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks in advance! ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 17:36, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

Indian painting

This article, which was not good, has been replaced with a very poor (machine?) translation of the French article. Needs copy-editing by a native speaker, ideally one with some knowledge of French, who will be able to guess what the literally-translated French idioms mean. Some bits may be hard to understand othwerwise. Also ideally, someone keeping an eye on an RS on the subject, as these French articles aren't always that great, I find. Johnbod (talk) 17:47, 10 February 2018 (UTC)

Talk:Sandro_Botticelli#Sexuality_versus_private_life

Contaldo80 is up to his usual tricks, and has invited comments here. Johnbod (talk) 13:56, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedia Edit-a-Thon in Portland, Oregon: Jewish Women Artists (March 8)

Main page: Wikipedia:Meetup/Portland/Jewish Women Artists

On March 8 (International Women's Day), and as part of the Art+Feminism project, Shoshana Gugenheim and the Oregon Jewish Museum and Center for Holocaust Education will be hosting a Wikipedia edit-a-thon to create and improve articles about Jewish women artists. Click here for more information. You can also express interest or suggest article to create or improve here. Remote participation is also welcome! ---Another Believer (Talk) 19:36, 17 February 2018 (UTC)

Best title for Andrew Jackson (National Statuary Hall Collection)?

Project members are invited to participate in this discussion about the most appropriate title for Andrew Jackson (National Statuary Hall Collection). Usually we disambiguate works of art by artist name. In this case, the sculpture is credited to two artists: Belle Kinney and Leopold Scholz. To complicate things just a little more, the Wikipedia article for Belle Kinney is actually Belle Kinney Scholz (they are married). Another editor and I have considered the following options:

Thoughts? Feel free to comment here, or better yet, on the article's talk page. Thanks! ---Another Believer (Talk) 02:30, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

Bust of Cristiano Ronaldo

Greetings, project members. The article Bust of Cristiano Ronaldo was deleted last year, but I've resurrected the topic in the form of Draft:Bust of Cristiano Ronaldo, since the artist has created a second bust depicting Ronaldo. I invite WikiProject participants to either make further improvements to the draft, or contribute to this discussion, where I've pinged all editors who were involved in last year's deletion and merge discussions. Thanks! ---Another Believer (Talk) 23:04, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

 Moved ---Another Believer (Talk) 06:25, 28 April 2018 (UTC)
Update: The article was redirected. I still invite project members to weigh in on this discussion: Talk:Cristiano_Ronaldo_International_Airport#Bust_of_Cristiano_Ronaldo,_part_2. ---Another Believer (Talk) 06:45, 28 April 2018 (UTC)

Nomination for merging of Template:Public art in Washington, D.C.

Resolved

Template:Public art in Washington, D.C. has been nominated for merging with Template:Public art in the United States. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. Thank you. --Another Believer (Talk) 14:01, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

Feedback request on "spiritualist" art

Your feedback at Talk:Andrée Le Coultre would be appreciated, regarding a question concerning the "spiritualist" tradition in art.

I have no idea what this might be, and can't find anything solid about it online. This came up when I was creating the Andrée Le Coultre article as a translation from the French article, which asserts her debt to cubism and "spiritualist" art equally, in the very first sentence. Thanks, Mathglot (talk) 20:56, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Artists by century

Surely I'm overlooking some previous discussion, but is there a clear policy for persons alive in more than one century? Sandro Botticelli (c. 1445 – 1510) is listed in both Category:15th-century Italian artists and Category:16th-century Italian artists; Jan van Eyck, possibly not yet a teen at the turn of the century, is omitted from Category:14th-century artists; well and good, but shouldn't Adolf Wölfli ("His first surviving works (a series of 50 pencil drawings) are dated from between 1904 and 1906.") be dropped from Category:19th-century Swiss painters?

I looked at other examples:

Like the others, Category:Flemish artists (before 1830) lacks any explanatory text but must be intended as a pre-Belgium-honorary-Belgians category. Sparafucil (talk) 21:40, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

There will be something buried in the old CFD pages. I think the agreed policy is that artists should only be included in centuries when they are known to have been active, and working as a fully trained artist ("master" in old terms). Several of your examples breach this - personally I'd drop (van Eyck and) Wölfli, Hals, Teniers, but leave Rubens ("Rubens completed his education in 1598, at which time he entered the Guild of St. Luke as an independent master.[7]") There may be a case for dropping him too, especially if no surviving works are assigned to 1599 or before. But you know how categorizers love to add cats.... Johnbod (talk) 21:51, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

Is Robert Ray (artist) notable?

Hi, there's an unreviewed page about Robert Ray and I'm on the fence about whether he he is notable per WP:ARTIST. Additionally, the page was created by and primarily written by the artist's great-nephew (see here). Anyone here want to weigh in? Enwebb (talk) 01:34, 1 February 2018 (UTC)

Hi Enwebb, I've had a look at Robert Ray and my own estimation is that he is notable due to his commercial and public presence and particularly his inclusion in major collections, but - with regard to the content - the entry is 3 times the written size it should be. "Early life, travel and education", "Work" and "Art Market" could be reworked to become "Early life & career", and "Reception". Notes on his style/medium could be entered into the article introduction. There are unnecessary descriptions of collections and foundations which are evidently notable from their individual wiki entries. (FoleyArtist (talk) 04:13, 21 March 2018 (UTC))
Yes, he is because he is represented within the permanent collections of several notable galleries or museums. Mduvekot (talk) 21:19, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Can I send invitations to new members for your project?

Hi, I have been working on recommending new members for your project for a while, and have sent some lists to Czar who helped invite those recommended editors. I wonder if you mind me sending invitations directly for WikiProject Visual arts on your behalf to save time and efforts of yours? Thank you! Bobo.03 (talk) 16:46, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

@Czar: Curious if you have a preference here. ----Another Believer (Talk) 04:37, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
@Another Believer, I wrote that I didn't think it was a good idea on Bobo's talk page (and further down on that page, see my comment on "Marina" re: quality control) czar 13:43, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
Thanks. ---Another Believer (Talk) 16:54, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Red links to turn blue

Extended content

Feel free to add/strike appropriately! ---Another Believer (Talk) 15:52, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Frankly these Category:Sculptures of women/men categories seem a bit excessive to me. Johnbod (talk) 16:23, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
Wouldn't these count as triple intersections? The "Statues in X" location seem fine but I wouldn't break "Sculptures of women" or "Outdoor sculptures" down further by location. czar 21:59, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
These are just the missing subcategories for Category:Outdoor sculptures in the United States by state, Category:Sculptures of men in the United States, Category:Sculptures of women in the United States, and Category:Statues in the United States by state. I'm not starting a new trend here. ---Another Believer (Talk) 00:37, 22 March 2018 (UTC)
"a bit excessive", yes, also why bother tell us about such trivial "achievements", and then clog the page up with updates? Ceoil (talk) 03:49, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
Yeah, 'cause this page is flooded with updates you might miss... </sarcasm> ---Another Believer (Talk) 03:51, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
So I can safely assume then that this was purely an ego exercise, and you needed no input. Ceoil (talk) 03:54, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
I'm not even sure I understand what you're saying, but regardless, my purpose for sharing the red links was to invite other editors to help see if they should be created and/or populated. Surely there are plenty of statues in each U.S. statues. ---Another Believer (Talk) 04:04, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
To be clear: Just do it, you dont have to keep people posted on the wonders of your edits. We all have busy lives, and work through such lists and other wiki work as a matter of course, without such attention getting fuss. I take all this in the context of the usual loud Another Believer stuff, who has tried to bait and block me, and think oh jesus, here we go again with further nonesence. You can claim to not understand my rationale, but that reflect more on your grasp of fact than the strength of my argument. Ceoil (talk) 04:11, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
I'll not clap back, and let's both just move on. If you don't like my updates to this page, ignore them, please. ----Another Believer (Talk) 04:35, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
I remember Francis Bacon micro stubs and resulting A/NI reports. The presentation of such thinly drawn and aggressively presented categories here indicates nothing has changed. Ceoil (talk) 05:16, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
And as I said on another page, if you must do this with people please stop there and don't sub-sub-sub-categorize other painting topics (Dogs in at in Northwest Indiana) and let them exist as very searchable and interesting lists without numerous drawers to open and close (many containing one or two topics). Sorry if this comes across as angry, but earlier today I had to go through five sub-categories to finally come upon a one-item category I was looking for. Counter-productive sub-sub-categories don't help the reader looking for something, because many will just give up and go away. Randy Kryn (talk) 17:02, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Golf Ball

Because I am the main editor, I feel I am too close to the article to decide whether to revert someone who trimmed Golf Ball.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 17:18, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Template:National Statuary Hall Collection

Editors are considering ways to improve and organize Template:National Statuary Hall Collection (see talk), if project members care to weigh in and/or show off their navbox markup skills. ---Another Believer (Talk) 17:39, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Nobody cares about you micro projects Another Believer! Most people here do this stuff in their sleep, routinely, and bothering nobody. Please respect both project space etiquette and already tested human patience. Ceoil (talk) 18:44, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
No one's twisting your arm to accept the invite to participate in ongoing discussions to make a template better. And to say "Nobody cares about you micro projects Another Believer" is not quite accurate. Another editor and I have slowly been chipping away at creating articles for all statues in the National Statuary Hall Collection, and several editors have discussed the template I linked to above. ---Another Believer (Talk) 19:48, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
Didn't realise there was Another editor, Another Believer. Ceoil (talk) 00:19, 1 April 2018 (UTC)
Maybe it's time to drop the stick, Ceoil. Sionk (talk) 20:40, 1 April 2018 (UTC)
? Why the anger? Anyway, the U.S. National Statuary Hall Collection project is a really good project and Another Believer is correct in asking for assistance here. It is an ongoing project which greatly adds to several different Wikipedia sculpture collections. Randy Kryn (talk) 21:54, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

Sourcing on Watercolor painting

Are the sources listed at Talk:Watercolor painting#Sources and external links reliable? Jjjjjjdddddd (talk) 03:18, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

@Jjjjjjdddddd: No. Stick to newspaper articles, academic journals, magazine, and other scholarly works. :) ---Another Believer (Talk) 03:31, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
Although newspaper articles are not ideal. Ceoil (talk) 03:50, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
Because? ---Another Believer (Talk) 03:52, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
A large amount of art related newspaper coverage is regurgitated press releases. Book sources, preferably secondary, are better advised to new editors. That I have to explain to you is basic and painful. Note op is asking about Watercolor, hardly where the sunday's are keeping us up to date. Ceoil (talk) 03:57, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
I read AB's comment as general (and good) advice for a new editor asking a basic sourcing question, not as explicit advice to use newspapers for an article on watercolor painting. Point demonstrated, but no need to be so harsh. czar 13:48, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
I was harsh because of his one word "Because?---", which perfectly demonstrates Another Believer's typical ill-informed arrogance. Frankly, he has been a pest on this page. Ceoil (talk) 15:14, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
I can't even. ---Another Believer (Talk) 19:46, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
Yes that's perfectly obvious. Ceoil (talk) 00:24, 1 April 2018 (UTC)
No, as I told you in January there. They aren't in the article, and you don't even know where they came from. Why bring it up again? Johnbod (talk) 15:29, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
I was seeking the rest of the project's opinion. Jjjjjjdddddd (talk) 03:21, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Newspapers are fine as sources but not as the only sources for a given article. Furthermore, we need to have read the newspaper articles to make sure they're genuine third-party sources and not press releases, gallery listings, interviews and so on. Often newspaper and general interest periodicals will be used as a source but when investigated, are just a listing of a show the artist had in 1999 at a now-defunct gallery in a small city you've never heard of. Newspapers are ideal for up-to-date information and confirming things claimed in academic articles. freshacconci (✉) 15:34, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Orientalist artists

This is to let you know that I have been working on the subject of Orientalist artists for the past 3-4 months. The List of Orientalist artists has been expanded from some 30-40 names to more than 500 names, with links to either the English article or a foreign language wikipedia article has been included. This list is now the most comprehensive digital list of Orientalists on the web.

I have also added the category "Orientalist painters" to most of the articles, so that the category has now been populated with the names of more than 400 artists who have produced Orientalist works and have articles in the English language version of Wikipedia.

Along the way, I have made every effort to expand articles that were classified as stubs; add suitable references to those articles that were tagged with "cn" tags or similar; added a few images to Wiki Commons, and add infoboxes to those articles that did not yet have this feature, as per your request on the main project page. I had almost completed this task, when I encountered an editor, who is part of your project group and who actively dislikes infoboxes. He began deleting the infoboxes from articles almost as soon I added them. His beef, he claimed, is that infoboxes are prone to factual errors, but I suspect that there is more to it than that. After all, the facts in the infobox come directly from the article (or occasionally from wiki commons), so if the infobox is factually incorrect, then surely the article also needs attention? In any case, following some futile discussion with this editor, he advised me to cease editing art articles. And, I have decided to take this advice simply because it is not worth getting into an edit war over it.

The vast majority of the names on the list of Orientalist articles currently have articles in the English Wikipedia, but a small proportion only have articles in one of the foreign language Wikipedias; and an even smaller number have no article in any Wikipedia. The vast majority of the Orientalist artists' articles now have infoboxes, except for a few with family names beginning with "W", "X", "Y" and "Z" which is where I was at when I was advised to quit editing these types of articles.

So, if there is someone who wants to create new articles on notable Orientalist artists, or to translate articles on notable artists into English, then the List of Orientalist artists might be a good place to begin. And, if there is someone brave enough to add infoboxes to the few Orientalist artists that don't yet have them, then that would also be useful. BronHiggs (talk) 06:58, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

There are many who don't like infoboxes for artist bios, and they do have problems, which were exemplified in some of the articles sampled from your list - inaccurate information (eg "Neoclassicism" wrongly used) and displacing more important images. Calling some of these artists "Orientalists" is rather stretching things. But thanks for your efforts anyway. Johnbod (talk) 12:03, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
I should have mentioned that all the attributions as Orientalist artists have been derived from books and articles on the subject and that a reference list is provided at the bottom of the article. I appreciate that you think your opinions are more worthy than those of scholars and art curators, but I take the view that WP editors should simply report what reliable sources have to say on a subject, rather than pressing their own POV. All the facts in the infoboxes were cut and paste from the article, so if you have a problem with the data in the infoboxes, then perhaps it might be worthwhile spending some time cleaning up the articles. From what I have read on Wikipedia, Johnbod is the only one who dislikes infoboxes. BronHiggs (talk) 21:39, 24 April 2018 (UTC)
Ah well, read more and you will find differently! Johnbod (talk) 00:57, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

Retitle "Yale Student Abortion Art Controversy" as "Aliza Shvarts" (BLP of an artist)

Hello,

This question being raised simultaneously on the BLP Noticeboard, the article's talk page, and here.

I'm a researcher and art historian who's been invited to write on Aliza Shvarts's practice. I'd like to propose changing Yale student abortion art controversy to a BLP page for Aliza Shvarts. Much of this page was written and contested in 2008, during the event’s emergence onto the stage of notability. It’s now been ten years since Shvarts came to notability as a BLP1E (the title of which was highly contested on the talk page, and the page was shortly thereafter reviewed and recast as an Event) and underwent a deletion review, and seven years since a user blanked the article’s content in its entirety, and it was restored. In the decade since the scandal, scholars and critics have written about the "controversy" not as a controversy, but as a controversial artwork, part of Aliza's larger critical and artistic practice. Because of this, I believe the page should be reclassified as a BLP, in which the controversy surrounding the artwork figures as one (substantiative) section.

Thoughts? Vera Syuzhet (talk) 14:25, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

Vera Syuzhet—what is the advantage to making the article about the artist instead of the artwork? Is the artist interesting? Isn't it the artwork that is thought-provoking moreso than the artist? Bus stop (talk) 19:24, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

Is there any reason for this page?

Is there a reason to believe that there are multiple forthcoming articles for Portrait of Madame Cézanne (disambiguation)? I am calling on the experts of this subject matter.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 14:01, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Well at least one anyway, yes. Johnbod (talk) 14:10, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
  • The dab was whittled down from three entries to two, so WP:2DABS applies (read: a hatnote would be sufficient if/when there is a separate article for the non-Lichtenstein painting) czar 14:24, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
courtesy ping creator @Wikisaurus czar 14:25, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
Of course the Lichtenstein would no longer be primary if we had the other article. Probably the Barnes Foundation Cezanne would be, though I'm sure C did others - ah yes, some 18 at least. Someone should do a stub, or a group article. Johnbod (talk) 14:29, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
Oh, 27 frigging portraits! Johnbod (talk) 14:39, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
Which the Lichtenstein article now actually links to ..... Johnbod (talk) 15:03, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

June Women in Red focus on GLAM

Welcome to Women in Red's June 2018 worldwide online editathons.



New: WiR Loves Pride

New: Singers and Songwriters

New: Women in GLAM

New: Geofocus: Russia/USSR


Continuing: #1day1woman Global Initiative

(To subscribe: Women in Red/English language mailing list and Women in Red/international list. Unsubscribe: Women in Red/Opt-out list)

--Ipigott (talk) 10:35, 29 May 2018 (UTC)

WikiProject collaboration notice from the Portals WikiProject

The reason I am contacting you is because there are one or more portals that fall under this subject, and the Portals WikiProject is currently undertaking a major drive to automate portals that may affect them.

Portals are being redesigned.

The new design features are being applied to existing portals.

At present, we are gearing up for a maintenance pass of portals in which the introduction section will be upgraded to no longer need a subpage. In place of static copied and pasted excerpts will be self-updating excerpts displayed through selective transclusion, using the template {{Transclude lead excerpt}}.

The discussion about this can be found here.

Maintainers of specific portals are encouraged to sign up as project members here, noting the portals they maintain, so that those portals are skipped by the maintenance pass. Currently, we are interested in upgrading neglected and abandoned portals. There will be opportunity for maintained portals to opt-in later, or the portal maintainers can handle upgrading (the portals they maintain) personally at any time.

Background

On April 8th, 2018, an RfC ("Request for comment") proposal was made to eliminate all portals and the portal namespace. On April 17th, the Portals WikiProject was rebooted to handle the revitalization of the portal system. On May 12th, the RfC was closed with the result to keep portals, by a margin of about 2 to 1 in favor of keeping portals.

There's an article in the current edition of the Signpost interviewing project members about the RfC and the Portals WikiProject.

Since the reboot, the Portals WikiProject has been busy building tools and components to upgrade portals.

So far, 84 editors have joined.

If you would like to keep abreast of what is happening with portals, see the newsletter archive.

If you have any questions about what is happening with portals or the Portals WikiProject, please post them on the WikiProject's talk page.

Thank you.    — The Transhumanist   08:00, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

Invaluable now available through The Wikipedia Library!

Free access to Invaluable is now available through the Library Card platform. Invaluable is a database of artists and auctions with more than 5 million entries, including 500,000 artists. You can sign up for free access now! Samwalton9 (WMF) (talk) 17:55, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

Draft:Charles Lorin

Is this person notable? Should the article be moved to mainspace? I see occasional mentions in him in various books, but not much in-depth. Calliopejen1 (talk) 06:06, 6 June 2018 (UTC)

"Genevan" as a nationality

User:Sapphorain, a Genevan local blown in from French WP, has a bee in his bonnet that for most of the early modern period the Republic of Geneva was independent, although tied to the Old Swiss Confederacy, part of the Holy Roman Empire. He has been going around removing "Swiss" from bios of artists like Jean-Étienne Liotard and creating categories like Category:Artists from the Republic of Geneva and Category:Engravers from the Republic of Geneva under Category:People from the Republic of Geneva (1541–1815). Originally he removed these entirely from the Swiss biographical tree. ULAN and other sources just call these people "Swiss" and so should we. Whatever the technical legal situation in the 18th century, here as elsewhere we should use the equivalent modern nationalities for the main categories.

I've launched a CFD discussion to merge them back into the Swiss categories. This is potentially the thin end of a huge wedge - I think many of us know of the city-nationalists or others who go around removing "Italian" and replace it with "Venetian", but they do not remove Venetian painters from the Italian tree. Unfortunately the discussion at CFD has been ill-attended, and is not going well. Any comments at Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2018_June_10#Category:Engravers_from_the_Republic_of_Geneva would be very welcome. Johnbod (talk) 13:36, 14 June 2018 (UTC)

I have a feeling we're going to have this same conflict over-and-over again. Wasn't there something about 17th century Belgian artists recently? It all seems to hinge on differing views of the exact meaning of nationality is in the in Category:X by nationality subcategories. It frankly gives me the shivers to refer to as Belgian who was born before 1830 (there was no such country). But I can see that "Belgian artists" is really shorthand for "Artists who were born, or predominantly worked in, what is currently the territory of the Kingdom of Belgium". It is practical and helpful to our readers to do the categories in that way. Category:People by nationality makes it clear that we refer to regions or historical nations in addition to modern nations. To take a strict textualist approach to categorization defeats its purpose. It leads to categories that are technically correct, but mostly useless because our readers wouldn't use them, or even know where to look. For a reader, it should be possible to start at a parent category and navigate to the article about an artist from the region they're interested in, starting with what is currently a country, like Switzerland. If categorizing people as X from the Republic of Geneva prevents that, it's wrong, but I would think that Category:Swiss people > Swiss people by occupation > Swiss artists > Artists from the Republic of Geneva works just fine as long as Artists from the Republic of Geneva is a non-diffusing subcategory of Swiss artists. Vexations (talk) 15:15, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
Generally I agree, but this is much worse, as Swiss was a valid & current term in English and the local languages all through this period. He has been removing the whole Swiss tree from his "Genevan" categories, as well as mention of "Swiss/Switzerland" from articles, and is adamant that 18th-century Genevans were not Swiss at all. In any I case I feel strongly that readers should not have to hunt through local (or chronological/style) sub-cats for professions, as they unfortunately have to do with Italian artists. As so often with category matters, the lunatics have taken over the asylum. Johnbod (talk) 17:50, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
His solution appears to be insert fr:Catégorie:Artiste de la République de Genève into fr:Catégorie:Artiste par nationalité and Category:Artists from the Republic of Geneva into Category:Artists by nationality. If we agree to do this his way, then we we can't just do it to Republic of Geneva; we'd have to also agree to add every other other former sovereign state to every Category:X by nationality. Not just Category:Artists from the Republic of Geneva, but also Category:Scientists from the Republic of Geneva (nevermind, he already did that). The thing is, I do find that categories like Category:Yugoslav footballers and Category:Rhodesian archaeologists exist. I think that's impractical. I don't know if we can get consensus to limit Category:X by nationality to countries that currently exist. Unless we do get that consensus, I can't think of a reason to oppose his move based on established practice in categorization. One reason to oppose is that it is unreasonable difficult for people to find the "correct" country if we are not also adding the subject to the current country. If I'm looking for painters from what is now Switzerland, I should not be presumed to know when which parts of what is now Switzerland were not Swiss. That's just not reasonable. The strongest objection I can can think of would be that all the sources on Liotard say he was Swiss, not Genevan. We ought to go by what the sources say, and not by what we, from personal experience or original research, have decided is WP:TRUTH. Vexations (talk) 22:05, 14 June 2018 (UTC)
Yes, that's the line I am taking (EB 1911 calls Liotard just "French" btw, but what do they know!). I don't believe the current cat rules (in so far as there are any) allow people to be excluded from any current national category tree without a far better reason than there is here. Johnbod (talk) 03:04, 15 June 2018 (UTC)

An image request

Hello. I'm not proficient at uploading or documenting images, so if someone can please assist then feel free to consider Frida Kahlo turning over in her grave and waving at you. Or giving her sister the finger. The new page Memory, the Heart (as I told AB, not to be confused with The Heart, She Holler), which is already getting substantial views, could use an image of the subject painting. I know help is on the way, my new app told me so. Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:08, 18 February 2018 (UTC)

Renewing request because of the amount of views of Memory, the Heart. Any takers on uploading an image? Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 17:06, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
Hi Randi, I found it here, https://www.fridakahlo.org/memory-the-heart.jsp#prettyPhoto it's just that I need to have some approval that there is no copy right. Someone who is in charge of her estate or museum needs to write to me and I'll help uploading it. I think that's how it works. --Forever Art (talk) 09:30, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
It will certainly be in copyright, but if there is an article on the painting can be loaded to en:wp (not Commons) with a fair use exemption. Johnbod (talk) 11:39, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
Thanks Forever Art (nice user name) and Johnbod (nice as well). There is an article, but I've never done an upload, so any help on that appreciated. The page is still obtaining over 100 hits a day, and an image would improve it. I'm surprised the site doesn't have images of all of Kahlo's paintings but their age is inside the copyright limit. Thanks again. Randy Kryn (talk) 11:43, 4 May 2018 (UTC)
  • Have tried several times to upload the image retrieved here, but the "Upload Wizard" isn't giving me a working upload button. I seem to have provided all the data asked for. Can someone else please give it a try? It's a copyrighted image for use in the article Memory, the Heart, the 1937 painting by Frida Kahlo, to show readers the painting. I don't know what I'm missing in the upload process. Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 20:19, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

New Retitle "Yale Student Abortion Art Controversy" discussion

If you have an opinion, discussion at Talk:Yale_student_abortion_art_controversy#Title_change_still_called_for.

Has been going on, in various forms, since the middle of May. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 13:12, 20 June 2018 (UTC)

Guernica

Hullaballoo Wolfowitz has removed this image of Picasso's Guernica from both the Museo Nacional Centro de Arte Reina Sofía page (where the painting resides) and from the Madrid page, the city location. It is still in copyright, although "given as a gift to the people of Spain". The fair use rationale would be that it defines the museum as a repository of art, and is its most important painting. As to the city, or even for use on the Spain page, the work is a national treasure, and is surely the most well-known and important painting in the city and the country. I don't know how to precede to enlarge its scope of use. Can someone, if you feel this is a case worth making, assist in obtaining the fair use permission from Commons the proper accreditation here? Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 19:31, 16 June 2018 (UTC)

The file would have to be loaded at Wikipedia using {{Non-free use rationale}}. Commons doesn't allow non-free images to be loaded there.–CaroleHenson (talk) 19:37, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
Thank you. Have edited my request. I mean the Wikipedia file linked above, which is used on other Wikipedia pages and which I'd like to ask to be used on the museum, the Madrid, and possibly the Spain page. I'm new to the loading and permission edits. Randy Kryn (talk) 19:40, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
Ah, gotcha. You want someone to help write up the non-free use rationale to add to the File:PicassoGuernica.jpg page on Wikipedia. I wouldn't know how to make the case for a painting to be used on an article about a city or country per non-free use rationale. Sorry, maybe someone else can make that connection.–CaroleHenson (talk) 19:46, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
Thanks. Actually I'm asking how I'd make a request to include the image on the museum page, and then to try the Madrid and Spain discussion. The page I went to seems to be only for image deletions. Thanks for your quick responses above. Randy Kryn (talk) 20:22, 16 June 2018 (UTC)
  • There is a discussion about Guernica's use and a NFCC violation at Talk:Museo Nacional Centro de Arte Reina Sofía. This is the museum where the painting is exhibited, and not including Guernica on it seems ridiculous, like removing the Mona Lisa from the Louvre page, the Sistine Chapel from the Vatican City page, or numerous other examples where an art museum can be defined by a single work. Does anyone know of a rationale for a NFCC by-pass that has been used on other museum pages? I'm asking this question to Hullaballoo as well, if they happen by here, as you seem to have an extensive knowledge of past placements of important images on Wikipedia articles. What would have to be changed in the rationale to make this proper use? Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 13:40, 18 June 2018 (UTC)
    • @Randy Kryn:, No changes in the rationale will suffice; the use is simply incompatible with NFC policy. Consensus and practice are quite clear. I've checked the top entries, for example, on List of most visited museums and List of largest art museums; the only nonfree files included in those articles are the museum's own logos -- no images of nonfree artworks from their collections. I'm sure exceptions slip in from time to time, but they're typically removed with little or no controversy. WP:NFC#UUI #6 is clear and rarely even disputed: "An [nonfree] image [is not acceptable] to illustrate an article passage about the image, if the image has its own article (in which case the image may be described and a link provided to the article about the image)". The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo). Treated like dirt by many administrators since 2006. (talk) 15:25, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
      • Thanks Hullaballoo Wolfowitz. It may make sense to hold a discussion to see if the definition of use of non-free images can be extended from only their own article to use in museum articles. This Guernica case may be the main argument to extend the definition, that it's non-use on the article of the museum, an Institution which it defines, shows the large hole in the policy. Coldcreation came up with that good and creative (although cold) alternative, which I hope you approve of as well. Thanks, I guess, for your good faith edits to keep other editors within the playing field. Randy Kryn (talk) 19:25, 20 June 2018 (UTC)
        • Just watched the 10th and final episode of Picasso on Genius and have realized that the way to go forward, at least I believe and hope it makes sense to others, is to have a Guernica exception for non-free use of an image on a museum page "if that museum can only be represented in an encyclopedia if its article includes the image of a specific artwork". In this case, and possibly the only case which can be argued reasonably or successfully (hence the name Guernica exception), Guernica on the Museo Reina Sofía page. How could this exception be carried forward into the policy language, and Hullaballoo Wolfowitz, would you please consider it for awhile, maybe mull it over during a meal, and possibly co-sponsor this idea. Thanks. Randy Kryn (talk) 18:15, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
          • If you want to create an exception/exemption to any Wikipedia policy, then the place to go about trying to do that would typically be on the talk page or the policy or at WP:VP/P, and it might require a WP:RFC. FWIW, although there are occasionally exemptions granted to WP:NFCC as explained in WP:NFEXMP, these tend to for maintenance pages, etc. and not for specific individual articles or files. Personally, I don't see how what you're requesting will gain any traction, but you can try if you want. You can also just try starting a discussion at WP:FFD instead to see if you can establish a consensus just for this particular non-free use. Just make sure, you avoid any problems with WP:CANVASS when notifying others of the discussion; for example, #Under attack is not the way to do such a thing. -- Marchjuly (talk) 20:45, 22 June 2018 (UTC)
            • Thanks for the sound advice. Will answer further later. Randy Kryn (talk) 21:14, 22 June 2018 (UTC)

Notability guidelines for art galleries

In my opinion, certainly not those of present notability guidelines, an art gallery demonstrates notability by by means of its exhibition schedule, but this exhibition schedule cannot be sourced to the art gallery because the art gallery is not independent of itself, therefore it is my opinion that reviews of art exhibitions validly contribute to the notability of art galleries. Recent AfDs have held that reviews of shows at art galleries do not contribute to notability. I believe the argument is that it is only the art that is referenced in such reviews and not the gallery. At Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Simon Lee Gallery an art gallery with many reviews of exhibitions was deleted. I don't think art galleries try to call attention to themselves. Art galleries are concerned with showcasing art. Independent sources write about the art seen at a gallery. I think that should be the number one contributor to notability for art galleries. At present, I don't think notability guidelines exist specifically for art galleries. Do others agree that such guidelines should be formulated? And shouldn't such guidelines take into consideration the reviews by sources of exhibitions? Bus stop (talk) 19:09, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

I don't think anyone would argue that reviews of art exhibitions somehow contribute to the gallery's notability, but the question is to what extent the coverage is of the gallery itself. I looked through the sources in the deleted Simon Lee Gallery and the only coverage past mere mentions was [1][2][3] Is the second link planted PR? because it looks like it. The third link is an interview/self-published source. It is possible to write an article that does justice to the topic with that sourcing? Now, alternatively, would we have enough sourcing for the gallerist? czar 01:43, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
Wrong! If we're talking about commercial galleries, not museums, all a gallery does is host exhibitions, and galleries that host notable exhibitions are notable. Otherwise all there is to say is how nice the toilets are. But the artists need to be notable, and the coverage not merely local. Johnbod (talk) 03:30, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
Galleries that host exhibitions of notable artists that are reviewed; and discussed in a multiple of sources including magazines, newspapers and online publications are notable...Modernist (talk) 10:36, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
? Good luck writing encyclopedia articles that do justice to the gallery as a topic when we don't have a preponderance of sources that cover the gallery's activities in depth. If a gallery's only sources are exhibition reviews that say little about the gallery's role, the resulting encyclopedia article will be anemic and reflect that lack of content about the gallery itself, no different from an article about a venue that says nothing about the venue. All this talk of rewriting notability guidelines to legislate a way out of not having secondary source coverage about the gallery itself, but what good would come of encyclopedia articles written this way, either for readers or for us? I see no way that an effort to except galleries from the general notability guideline—à la the sole bypass for professors—will garner wide community acceptance or end in anything but frustration for those who take up the quixotism. A better effort, I'd wager, would be to encourage more secondary source coverage about the topics you wish to see covered on Wikipedia. czar 11:55, 1 July 2018 (UTC)
czar—it is rarely the case that we have no information about an art gallery provided that gallery has an active exhibition schedule and its exhibitions are taken note of by sources, and of course that the sources are reliable. The problem here is not that the gallery is not notable but that the activity of an art gallery remains below the radar, so to speak. Reliable sources have scarce to report about these institutions because all of the work they do is behind the scenes. We generally do have some information on the gallery. Galleries are known for the kind of work they show and perhaps the artists they have "discovered". Generally owners and curators are known. Sometimes some shows receive an inordinate amount of interest and are written about in sources not only in the realm of reviews but in books as well. The problem is that at AfD this can be ignored in favor of a blind adherence to WP:INHERIT. It is strictly speaking not "inheritance" because of the gallery's instrumental role in bringing about the activity that transpires within the gallery. You might want to weigh in at Articles for deletion/Meessen De Clercq. Bus stop (talk) 12:17, 1 July 2018 (UTC)
  • Ongoing commentary—A gallery is essentially an empty space that reflects the taste of its owners and operators. It provides ancillary services but these are rarely the sorts of things that are taken note of. Walls have to be painted. Lighting has to be provided. When sources review exhibitions, those sources are indirectly supporting the notability of the art gallery. That is because it was the taste of the owners and operators and the initiative of the owners and operators that set in motion the forces leading to the exhibitions that are being reviewed. Therefore a review of a show is supportive of the notability of the art gallery. Bus stop (talk) 11:56, 15 May 2018 (UTC)
  • I think we ought to rewrite WP:ARTIST first, but if we are going to write a notability guideline for art galleries, I think that merely exhibiting notable artists does NOT make a gallery notable. There are plenty of galleries that work in the secondary market that sell art by eminently notable artists, but do not in any way contribute to what I'd call a critical discourse about the art they exhibit. I think that art galleries are poorly served with NCORP, because some of them are not like other businesses, and more like (free) museums. A gallery that is notable has noticeable impact (in the art world) and is, in some way, the subject of significant critical attention. For example, Betty Parsons, Ileana Sonnabend, Leo Castelli and Marian Goodman can be considered to have created a market for the artists they represent. Sometimes their efforts are reflected in museum collections. Some galleries produce exhibition catalogues that do get reviews, like for example Hauser Wirth & Schimmel, who produced Revolution in the Making, (I have a draft for an article about that exhibit here). A recent deletion discussion of a gallery at Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Alexander_Friedmann-Hahn concluded that reviews of exhibitions do not by themselves establish notability if there is nothing about the gallery in those reviews. It may not have helped that the majority of artists that the gallery represented were themselves not notable. (See User_talk:DGG#curators_and_gallerists for a discussion). I have in the past compared some gallery rosters to see just how many of the artists galleries represent have Wikipedia articles. Notes are here. Vexations (talk) 22:03, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
  • So I learn from this that there is a Wikipedia:WikiProject Deletion sorting/Artists, split off from the main VA one in 2016. Who knew? Not me, or I suspect many here - the other one continues to get many artists. These deletion debates now seem to have few editors one recognises as working in the field. We should all watchlist this. Johnbod (talk) 22:40, 27 May 2018 (UTC)

Notability guidelines for art galleries, continued

Wider community input might not be a bad idea at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Meessen De Clercq. Bus stop (talk) 08:33, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

Under attack

The visual arts are now under a massive attack by the hunters (see above) and now these: [4] and [5]...Modernist (talk) 11:13, 18 June 2018 (UTC)

This sort of mass deletion spree - and indeed the zealous insistence on the precise terms of WP:NFCC being met at all times, everywhere - reminds me of User:Betacommand. (I don't recall if Betacommand deleted fair use rationales before nominating files for deletion, but someone else may remember.) When was the last Betacommand sockpuppet caught? 213.205.240.204 (talk) 14:55, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
  • It does look like Betacommand to me; thank you for reminding me of his name; I had forgotten. Thank you for your insightful help...Modernist (talk) 23:17, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
  • ? Many of the rationales are correct. NFCC isn't hard to meet: the non-free image needs a textual reason for being on the page, especially when free use equivalents exist. A bunch of the nominations are pulled from the glut and galleries of Color Field, History of painting, and Western painting. It isn't useful to blanket reply "keep" on these with no effect to ascertain what works best for the encyclopedia, especially given that "free use" is one of our core tenets. Look at the other replies on these discussions for a clue to their eventual closure. czar 22:39, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Excuse me? Color Field has no galleries - that's none....Those other 2 are important visual art articles having been targeted for years, by the way...Modernist (talk) 23:19, 26 June 2018 (UTC)
Color Field has "glut" not "galleries", but that isn't the point. "Free use" is one of our core tenets and we don't do fair use unless warranted by a need in prose. Can't argue that those principles are being misapplied to these sets of images without first conceding the direction of the "massive attack". czar 13:20, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Every image under attack is covered by Fair Use Rationales...Modernist (talk) 13:37, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
    • As I've explained before, the Wikimedia foundation uses a stricter requirement than fair use. We want to support our content being reused, and non-free images do not support that, but there's a balance between that and visual clarity for topics. I know if you open up any history of painting book it will be flooded with examples (free and copyrighted with permission) but we simply can't replicate that under the WMF's target goal. --Masem (t) 13:51, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
    • You were advised by NeilN at User talk:NeilN#AN3 about Madrid about referring to this as an "attack". You're also just basically trying to argue WP:JUSTONE by implying that simply adding a non-free use rationale is all that is needed for a particular non-free use to be NFCC compliant. You seem to have just been just copying-and-pasting boilerplate non-free use rationales onto file pages with the only difference being the names of the articles where the files are being used. Then, when you someone points out to you that WP:NFCC#10c and WP:NFCCE require that non-free use rationales be separate and specific for each non-free use, your response is basically "if you think the rationale is the problem, then fix it yourself". This kind of approach is not really in accordance with relevant policy. -- Marchjuly (talk) 14:56, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
      • I think the "attack" language may be justified by the sheer amount of items listed on one day. Editors would have had to spend hours preparing these entries, and if "attack" isn't the right word, "blitz" might do (minus the heavy-metal unless a keyboard is considered metal). Anyone wishing to answer-in-full each and every delete request would have to spend an equal amount if not more time. This doesn't seem fair to me, and language like "attack" (a good-faith attack?) is reasonable to describe the overall intent. Randy Kryn (talk) 15:01, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

The arguments being deployed here seem to lead almost inevitably to articles on the history of art since, say, 1923, being almost entirely unillustrated. Further, if these arguments are upheld, then our biographical article on a leading artist such as Jasper Johns will not include any of the artworks for which he is justly famous (no Flag (painting), no Three Flags, no White Flag, no Map (painting)). Is that really what the fair use warriors want? To denude encyclopedic articles of any illustrations that support and add value to the text?

As things stand, we have the ridiculous situation that a ceramic tile copy of Guernica (Picasso) being used on the article about the museum that holds the orginal painting, its most prominent exhibit. Needless to say, the tile copy is a pale shadow of the painting, and is on a wall about 250 miles away from the museum in Madrid.

There is no adequate replacement for a unique, original artwork. We use a low-resolution, thumbnail image to respect the copyright holder's rights, and only use it where justified by encyclopedia concerns and relevant to the article concerned, with a rationale explaining why. Even when images meet all of the requirements of the fair use policy, they are liable to be removed because someone says they fail to navigate through a tick-box laundry list of guidelines, applied in an automatic, knee-jerk fashion, defying all common sense.

The guidelines themselves say they are not exhaustive or determinative, and need to be applied with judgement on a case by case basis according to the spirit of the policy and not its exact words. Images "illustrative of a particular technique or school" are expressly allowed. That surely applies to an article on the history of art or a biography too. 213.205.251.112 (talk) 15:01, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

NFC would allow:
  • The image of a notable piece of art on a standalone page about that piece of art.
  • A "few" examples of art from a notable artist as examples of their art. What a "few" is depends: if the artist had only one style they stuck to, then only one or two examples would be reasonable. On the other hand, if we had someone like Picasso with several notable periods, or even different mediums, an example from each would be fair.
  • A "few" examples to describe a school of art or technique of art. Again, what a "few" is depends: if it was a short-lived period, probably only one or two. If it was a period that had several iterations, an example from each iteration would be reasonable.
Yes, unfortunately the WMF's stance on non-free goes against the visual and audio arts, so we do have a bit more fairer allowances, but we can't allow the same amount of non-free art that one would normally find in a work that is only bound by fair use. We can provide external links to galleries of art for readers to find more as needed. --Masem (t) 17:42, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
  • As you know this argument has been going on for nearly 15 years; the visual works that have been used thus far has been relatively modest; certainly using just a few images to represent decades of art history is useful, educational and valuable. It increases this encyclopedia's credibility. As you know this discussion has been going on since 2006 or before. The few images that we use should be protected...Modernist (talk) 17:49, 28 June 2018 (UTC)
Except that the argument is settled. We have a sitewide policy, which you can protest if you want, but until you change it, we have a party line on how to handle handfuls of fair use images dumped on a page with no textual commentary. czar 16:43, 30 June 2018 (UTC)
  • Once again that is your opinion; and to be sure these articles are anything but handfuls of contemporary art dumped onto a page without textual commentary; learn the subject; understand just what is being destroyed...Modernist (talk) 18:39, 1 July 2018 (UTC)
    • Perhaps you can clarify why some of the non-free files currently being discussed at FFD need to be seen twice within the same article and how does this type of non-free use satisfy WP:NFCC#3a and WP:NFCC#10c. For example, File:Robert Rauschenberg's untitled 'combine', 1963.jpg, File:Hans Hofmann's painting 'The Gate', 1959–60.jpg, File:Robert Motherwell's 'Elegy to the Spanish Republic No. 110'.jpg, File:'Bridge' by Kenneth Noland, 1964..jpg, File:'Where', 252 x 362 cm. magna on canvas painting by Morris Louis, Hirshhorn Museum and Sculpture Garden, 1960.jpg, File:Frankenthaler Helen Mountains and Sea 1952.jpg and File:Office in a small city hopper 1953.jpg are all being used twice times (some of them even within the same subsection) in History of painting. A seperate specific non-free use rationale is required for each use per NFCC#10c, yet these files have only a single (copied-and-pasted bolierplate) non-free use rationale for these uses in the article. You posted above to Masem that the visual works that have been used thus far has been relatively modest, and that Czar should learn the subject [to] understand what is beiung destroyed. How is using the same non-free file multiple times in the same article "relatively modest" and not "excessive" per NFCC#3a? Does this mean that your argument of "visual art must be seen" also extends to the same non-free file being used multiple times in the same article? Would removing at least one of these multiple uses from the same article "destroy" the article and did you just not notice that these particular files were being used twice within the same article when you added a "Keep all those visual art images below..." or "Keep important work by an important artist..." !votes to their respective FFD discussions? -- Marchjuly (talk) 07:13, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
      • Frankly there are indeed only a limited amount of contemporary images to work with. Consequently those images are critically important and should all be kept and used in the few articles that we have. Thank you for pointing out that some were used twice; those images are really only needed once in each article...Modernist (talk) 11:36, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
          • A "limited amount of contemporary images to work with"? That's utter nonsense. Very few images of notable artwork are actually "off limits" under WMF policy. What this argument is about (mostly) is enforcing the minimal use standard enacted in WMF policy and embodied in our local NFCC policy. The question is not whether such images may be used at all, but whether they may be used in any article which mentions them, or to which they are in some way "relevant". Nonfree use policy soundly rejects that notion; WP:NFC#UUI #6 holds that a link to an article where the image is displayed is sufficiently informative. That represents the balance that the WMF has chosen to strike in implementing its free content mandate. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo). Treated like dirt by many administrators since 2006. (talk) 16:17, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
  • Total Nonsense, let me repeat what you clearly don't understand - Visual Art needs to be seen - Frankly there are indeed only a limited amount of contemporary images to work with. Consequently those images are critically important and should all be kept and used in the few articles that we have...Modernist (talk) 22:58, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
  • Comment. The role of images in art education is different than the role of images in many other usages. Images are the subject matter in articles on visual art. The commentary is of secondary importance. It is seeing the work, or at least a reproduction of a work of art, that is the primary educational tool and aim. Art education is primarily a familiarization with with those works of visual art that various authorities have deemed important or serious or noteworthy. The entire commentary provided by such authorities is a defense of the choices they make in choosing certain works of art to be "special". But educationally it is not the commentary that primarily matters but rather the seeing of the conclusions of their commentary. We are waging an ass-backwards effort if we only provide the commentary and neglect to include the best-quality examples of the images of the works of art. This is so fundamental that it can be overlooked. The restricting of our usage to only freely available images often represents a distinctly second-rate choice if we are trying to convey to the reader a good sense of the item being written about. The cliché of the art-educational classroom setting is of dimmed lighting and projected images. I think this suggests the centrality of images to the subject matter of the sorts of articles under discussion. Bus stop (talk) 12:20, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
There is no attempt to prevent having images alongside commentary, but by virtual of the nature of WP being written in summary style, and that the area of visual arts generally gets dissected along the lines of school/style and of geographic region/history, there's only a few logical places that that commentary can fall: an article about the painting itself, or if that doesn't exist, the painter, the specific school, and the specific geographic region, and in the case of this last two, only if the work is a well-established piece that belongs to that skill. The problem with how the visual art articles are set up is that commentary is reproduced unnecessarily in the broader school/styles or geographic regions so that the images are being repeated unnecessarily to go along with it. If you are going to write articles like History of Painting as a summary style (rather that split up into segments), then you are necessarily going to have to cut down on image use - free and non-free - in the summary-level articles, as these should be overviews and not comprehensive as they are now. That's what's causing the problem with non-free images. I can understand that there might be a few cases - on the order of a dozen - of reasonable necessary examples that will filter up and be reused as well-recognized, key examples that support the summary style as to keep a balance on the page, but it's far less than what this project uses currently. --Masem (t) 14:13, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
I would think the article History of painting would be as comprehensive as possible. The use of these images, essential to such a page and to the literal history of painting, seems fine and actually necessary to give our readers the sense-of-subject that they expect to find. Randy Kryn (talk) 14:18, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
  • We have cut down image use extensively although those images used are crucial in order to be able to explain visually and educate our readers properly regarding these complex diversities in the visual arts...Modernist (talk) 14:34, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
WP does not encourage writing at a deeply comprehensive styles at multiple topic levels; that's the whole point of summary style. For that reason, the top level articles like History of Painting should not have significant commentary on any one work, a detail better left to more specific articles. --Masem (t) 14:54, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
  • Images speak louder than a thousand words. Coldcreation (talk) 23:34, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
    • Loudness is not one of Wikipedia's goals. A narrative focused on loudness is a tale Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing.The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo). Treated like dirt by many administrators since 2006. (talk) 23:46, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
      • "Loudness is not one of Wikipedia's goals." Articulateness is. The phrase "Images speak louder than a thousand words" involves a figurative use of the word "loud". We already have "contextual significance". In the context of visual art, images have significance. The images increase the readers' understanding. To say that their omission would be detrimental is an immeasurable understatement. Please stop suggesting that anyone is an "idiot". Coverage of visual art takes place at this project. Policy already exists to allow this project to cover visual arts with the inclusion of images of representative works of art. Bus stop (talk) 03:00, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
        • No, the phrase "Images speak louder than a thousand words" is just a clumsy misquotation that gets only about two dozen unduplicated Ghits. I assume the OP meant to say something like "a picture is worth a thousand words", but conflated it with "actions speak louder than words". It's ironic that this inarticulate mashup is supposedly presnted as supporting the value of the articulate. And you also seem unable or unwilling to recognize a figurative use of some of Shakespeare's most articulate writing. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo). Treated like dirt by many administrators since 2006. (talk) 04:39, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
          • Apparently you are not aware of or you don't appreciate the role of images in providing readers with information about visual art. Bus stop (talk) 11:20, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
    • Trying to justify the non-free content use of any file by arguing WP:THOUSANDWORDS is usually not going to get you very far. As stated by others above, the current policy cannot be changed through the discussion of any one single image. If you feel the policy should changed to allow a more broadly-construed non-free contact use that you and some others seem to be advocating, then you (or they) should propose such a thing at WT:NFCC or at WP:VP/P. Perhaps you will be able to establish a consensus to change the policy in such a way. -- Marchjuly (talk) 00:25, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
      • The contextual significance of the non-free content under attack is indisputable. The images are used only because their presence significantly increases the readers' understanding of the articles within which they are present. Their omission would be detrimental to that understanding. As stated above, there are only a limited number of these images available, and their usage at low resolution is perfectly justified and in accord with WP:NFCCP. That is why the images are included in the respective articles, notwithstanding uncompromising interpretations of Wikipedia non-free policy. Coldcreation (talk) 00:42, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
        • A picture is worth a thousand words is not easy to misinterpret, and yet Hullaballoo has. Rather than edit-warring, deleting, arguing, and wasting everyone's time, just add a sourced commentary in the article, improve rationales. Be constructive per WP:NFCCEG. Support Wikipedia's mission to produce perpetually free content, and support the development of a high-quality encyclopedia. These paintings, all fundamental in the history of art, need to be seen. Coldcreation (talk) 10:08, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

Apparently you are not aware of or you don't appreciate the role of images in providing readers with information about visual art.

These types of comments would seem to align with a section titled "Under attack", but I'm otherwise baffled at the lack of policy awareness from this WikiProject. If you disagree with the non-free content policy, take it up with a wider audience in a wider forum, such as the policy's talk page or the Village Pump, as has already been mentioned above. This WikiProject page is the wrong forum for that discussion. It's quite clear that the interloping image copyright regulars, who have quite succinctly re-explained the community consensus (policy), do not have an audience here, which indicates a whole host of problems to be resolved outside the scope of this talk page. czar 16:27, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

The problem is not a disagreement with or a lack of awareness of non-free content policy, it is the interpretation of such. Coldcreation (talk) 16:32, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
You refer to "the lack of policy awareness from this WikiProject". That is "WikiProject Visual arts". In policy I find a reference to "contextual significance" reading "Non-free content is used only if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the article topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding." In the visual arts the images are exceptionally important and policy allows for the use of images "if its presence would significantly increase readers' understanding of the article topic, and its omission would be detrimental to that understanding." Bus stop (talk) 21:48, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
Reciting the policy language is not communicative at this point. Please explain, to cite just one of the current disputes, how the reader'sw understanding of that fact that a painting has been stolen is detrimentally affected, in a material way, by an absence of its image. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo). Treated like dirt by many administrators since 2006. (talk) 23:44, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
The curious reader may be interested to see what sort of artwork was stolen for reasons unrelated to any scholarly commentary that may predate the theft. Isn't the instance of the inclusion of the image of a stolen artwork slightly outside of the general reasons we are having this discussion? Bus stop (talk) 02:18, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
The phrase "A picture is worth a thousand words" when talking at the level of discussing a specific piece of art, an artist, or a specific school. It helps us understand at that highly detailed level what the art world saw with that visual work, some detail which simply can't be put into words. So images at that level make a lot of sense. But at the level of "History of Painting" or the broader school/history articles, that "thousand words" doesn't apply. You're just at that point looking to provide a few relevant examples to help guide the reader to know the broad distinctions between schools/periods. Thus these high level articles should not be burdened with excessive amounts of non-free media. --Masem (t) 16:47, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
  • And they aren't. There are really only a few images available and those that are being used convey visuals of the schools/periods and important movements discussed. The articles cover more than a century of art and the images are in compliance while interpretation does seem to be the problem...Modernist (talk) 17:27, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
  • That's just silly. There may be a relatively tiny number of relevant images whose use is limited to protect their commercial value, but almost every artwork is available. What you're saying is that your own view of art is so narrow and constricted that you can use only a narrow set of images, over and over and over. That you cannot discuss art based on the full sweep of the field, but only on your own constricted knowledge base, reflects a crippling mandarinism that is inconsistent with Wikipedia's encyclopedic purpose. The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo). Treated like dirt by many administrators since 2006. (talk) 23:37, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
  • This is plain nonsense when it comes to the art of recent decades. With 70 years after death the basic copyright period, it stands to reason that the vast majority of art from the last 70-90+ years is in copyright, except for the odd piece where government work-for hire, publicly-exhibited art in some countries and a very few images released by the copyright-holders can be used. You can't illustrate Color Field with a Rembrandt. Please don't be an idiot. Johnbod (talk) 23:48, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
  • That's not what anyone is saying. Color field clearly is going to have to rely on artwork that is copyrighted, since was only started in the 1940, so a few examples of that style is reasonable. Fourteen (what is currently there) is not. The problem is that the visual arts project has written these articles with so much overlap in detailed form, against what WP:SS recommends. Or, another way to put this: If Wikipedia were a printed book, with no size limits, you'd only be using any given image once and only once in that. We are clearly not written like a book, but covering the same material, so the summary articles should be far less detailed. By necessity, they will repeat some information - and some images - but not as much text or images as the bulk of these articles currently have. WP cannot accomodate the coverage of visual arts in the same fashion that printed books can, due to its digital, bite-size nature, and its non-free content policy. There's ways to still use all those images on articles about the images themselves or likely for the artists if the images aren't notable, but can't all can't filter up to the top level articles as is presently being done. --Masem (t) 23:58, 4 July 2018 (UTC]
The plain truth is that there are very few works of contemporary art from the 1930s to the present in the public domain. 14 images are barely enough to illustrate an article as complex as colorfield painting. The history begins with Matisse, and runs through abstract expressionism - (one aspect) - through the art of the '60s, to the present day. With the exception of an artist like Matisse all of the other important artists work - From Rothko and Newman to Stella, Frankenthaler and others are under copyright. I know the field of art and art history very well and contemporary art needs to be seen and images need to remain in those few articles in which they appear...Modernist (talk) 01:50, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
Again, no one said you must only use free images to illustrate. A few non-free examples is completely fine on an article like Color Field. The problem is that you can't use anywhere close to 14 and be compliant with the WMF's non-free image policy, because that's simply not "minimal use". You have at least 40 artists that have done color field art, and spot checks show each of them have at least one example of their color field work, so if a reader wants to see more examples, they can follow that. (I would also suggest making a Category:Color field paintings (or similar) that you can also point readers to.) You simply cannot overload these pages with examples of non-free paintings under the claim they all must be seen. All that is needed to understand the concept of color field are about 2 or 3 images, and if I need to learn more, following the links to the artists or specific examples. That's a 100% required approach to stay compliant with the WMF. --Masem (t) 02:26, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
"All that is needed to understand the concept of color field are about 2 or 3 images" - reallly? Clever you. A very personal and subjective judgement, which few here will agree with. Johnbod (talk) 12:50, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
From a standpoint of trying to maintain a free content work, yes, 2-3 image + links to 40+ artists in the field is considered sufficient. We are not here to dabble in art appreciation, but to document the history of visual works, which needs far less emphasis on emphathic elements and more on factual ones. --Masem (t) 13:25, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
You are misstating art education as "art appreciation". No one has to like a work of art. But it is depicted in an image for the educational value that the image provides. It is familiarity with the general visual outline of a reference point in art history that matters. Bus stop (talk) 14:01, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
Also to stress: WP is not meant to be the end-all , be-all, last stop for someone researching art topics. We're supposed to be a summary and direct readers to more detailed works. For that reason, we shouldn't be trying to document with so many images in these articles, as that doesn't serve our purpose as a summary work. --Masem (t) 02:28, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
  • At the same time we are presenting scholarly articles that actually bring information to the table. In the article there is historical background with the paintings of Matisse, I would have liked to also include a work by Miro, but as you mentioned we cannot include everything. However the images that are included are all important to the topic...Modernist (talk) 02:34, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
    • That's hardly accurate. "Scholarly articles" are properly referenced, and the text is checked against the references to assure that is is properly supported.You, however, battle reflexively in support of unsourced text, leading to your insistence, for example, that critic Robert Coates had "coined" a term first used decades earlier, or more recently your restoring the absurd and unsourced assertion that Jackson Pollock had tried to assassinate Leon Trotsky. I am not making this up [6] The Big Bad Wolfowitz (aka Hullaballoo). Treated like dirt by many administrators since 2006. (talk) 04:41, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
  • I'm getting sick and tired of your stupid attacks. You clearly don't understand this subject and appear to have some kind of vendetta against me and this subject. That nonsense regarding Pollock - was a total misread on your part. You obviously don't have a clue. The paragraph said that Pollock studied with Siqueiros who later attempted to assassinate Trotsky; Siqueiros not Pollock....Modernist (talk) 10:08, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
    • I'm not sure Wikipedia articles are intended to be scholarly articles per se. For sure, there are some extremely well-written articles which might seem comparable or even better in terms of quality, but basically Wikipedia article content is only intended to reflect with reliable sources are saying about something; it's not intended to present new information or interpretations. (Wikipedia doesn't even consider it's own articles to be reliable sources for any purpose.) So, if a reliable source is discussing a particular painting and content related to that discussion can be added to an article, then there might be a strong context for using a non-free image of the painting in the article. Simply saying that the image cannot properly be described in words, so it therefore needs to be seen seems like a type of image WP:OR to me. There are things about a painting, such as how it illustrates a certain style or technique, etc., which can be described and which are often described in words by professional art critics, etc. in books, periodicals, and other places where art is critically discussed. Just mentioning an image by name and wanting the reader to see it for that reason alone without any real discussion of a painting itself means that there's no real loss in understanding to the reader if the image is omitted. Masem's point about WP:SS is, I think, a good one. A stand-alone article about a painting is where most of the detailed discussion of the painting seems appropriate and therefore where non-free use seems to be the most acceptable per current policy. However, in other articles, the connection between image and specific article content might not be as strong which means non-free use is going to be much harder to justify and require something more than simply wanting the reader to see it. -- Marchjuly (talk) 06:39, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
The first and foremost fact is that reliable sources are saying something about for instance a painting. Exactly what they are saying is of secondary importance. And revaluations are not at all uncommon. Commentary by good-quality sources are constantly updating earlier pronouncements about the significance of works of art, art movements, and artists. They rise and fall in the assessments of successive generations of art commentators. But the one constant is the work of art itself. It can be seen in an approximation in an image. It doesn't matter so much what is being said about it as much as it matters that serious commentators on art are talking about it. It is the familiarity with the image that is of paramount importance, along with whatever "facts" can be retained by the normal mind about that image, especially facts such as name of artist, name of art movement, year made, medium, materials, dimensions, location. These are facts that tend to remain constant. Art history revisits certain works. Certain works of art are reference points. The reader needs to be familiar with the reference points. It will never be the case that Malevich's White on White will be neglected. It is a reference point. None of the editors in this discussion are putting images in articles that are not reference points in art history. In every instance these are important works of art. Not everyone is interested in art. But an absence of interest in the discipline should not be a reason to endeavor to dismantle the articles. Bus stop (talk) 13:19, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
When there are standalone articles on specific paintings, there is no issue in using the sources that are trying to say something about the paintings on that article about the painting. That's fine. no one is trying to stop that. But you can't use the same logic when describing the history or concept of a specific school or area of painting. The message cannot be about the value of the painting, so those sources shouldn't be reused for that type of message. Your "reference points" concept - what I'd consider example works - is reason to justify a few core examples on this broader areas, but between how WP is set up and the WMF's stance on non-free, you simply can't show every reference point that is being done right now. You can blue-link to articles on the individual paintings, have lists of paintings and painters off the article, and the like, but we cannot allow the number of non-free examples being currently used on many pages. --Masem (t) 13:30, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
No one is trying to show every reference point. Your personal opinion that "we cannot allow the number of non-free examples being currently used on many pages" is not in accord with WP:NFCCEG. The small number of images currently used are perfectly inline with WP:NFCCEG. Be constructive. Support Wikipedia's mission to produce perpetually free content, and support the development of a high-quality encyclopedia. Coldcreation (talk) 14:03, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
Keep in mind, most of the images in questions have a single article devoted to them, no one is speaking of stripping away those articles. It's the multiple reuse of many many images that is against the free-content goal and non-free content policy of WP. There is no need for 14 images on the Color Field page given all 14 have their own page or are a fair example of the artist's work on the artist's page. The goal of examples of images on Color Field should be to show that it is abstract art with big and bold fields of solid color, which is easily done with about 2-3 images. If I need more, I can follow blue links or external links. --Masem (t) 14:10, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
And according to that Gene Davis, Morris Louis, Frank Stella, Helen Frankenthaler weren't color field artists - although according to Ken Noland - when he and Morris Louis visited Helen Frankenthaler's studio in 1953 at the urging of Clement Greenberg and saw her painting Mountains and Sea the entire world changed. The images are important...Modernist (talk) 14:22, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
"you simply can't show every reference point" No one argues for the inclusion of every reference point. You say "that is being done right now." No, it is not. It is a matter of judgement as to how many images of artworks result in an appropriate degree of familiarity with the subject of the article. I don't think that the responsible editors here are including any more images than the minimum number necessary to familiarize the reader with the subject of the article. It would be an anemic article that talked about artworks or artists or art movements that did not illustrate visual approximations of the artworks themselves. The text is not super-duper important relative to the images. New text will be written about the artworks in succeeding years, by good-quality sources, but the image of the artwork will remain relatively constant. Bus stop (talk) 14:27, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
In an article like Color field which is more about the style, history, and noted artists, the text is more important than the image. A few are certainly needed to support what the style is, but this article is not written to approach "art appreciation" but to factually understand how the movement developed and who was involved. No images are required for that type of content, outside of a few reasonable examples to show what the style is. --Masem (t) 17:56, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
this article is not written to approach "art appreciation" but to factually understand how the movement developed and who was involved The artworks come first. The commentators explain the interconnectedness of art movements and their component artworks. In a very real sense, commentators are as likely to be incorrect as they are likely to be correct. These are explanations but this is not science by any stretch of the imagination. What we know is that certain artworks serve as "reference points" in the commentary of many well-respected commentators on art. But the commentators are not "right" in the sense that this has been proven to be the case. Therefore the artworks are the only abiding "facts". I think this consideration bolsters the case for why they need to be seen. Bus stop (talk) 20:05, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
An article like Color Field is primarily an objective narrative, detailing the history of the movement and those that inspired/evolved it. It has very little subjective material, enough to explain the relative importance of that movement that can't be captured by fact, but not anything specific on any one single art piece. As such, it is not an "art appreciation" narrative, and thus does not require that many images; only a few to support the facts within the content of our NFC policy. In contrast, a standalone article on a specific piece of art is going to be far more subjective content to explain the reason that art piece is important, and that's where art appreciation comes into play, fully justifying the image. --Masem (t) 17:45, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
As has often been apparent, you have the wierdest ideas about the encyclopaedic coverage of art. There is no point to a factual narrative about the history of the movement without an understanding of the sort of art it produced, and that can hardly be achieved by text alone. As with any movement, some discussion of specific works is the best way to achieve this, and invariably used (often over-used) by textbooks and other encyclopaedic-type works. Johnbod (talk) 17:59, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
I never said you can't use a few examples, but due to our non-free policy to meet the WMF's requirements for Wikipedia being a free content work, these should be reduced to a minimum set that is needed to gain sufficient understanding school, with the knowledge that we have several detailed articles on specific paintings and artists in that school. If we were a textbook or printed, all that would be one big section with no need to repeat images. WP is broken into bite size pieces, so some repetition is allowed, but nowhere as much as currently used in several articles. --Masem (t) 15:54, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
Masem—Color Field is a particularly diverse grouping of paintings. It is a grouping of paintings that almost requires the inclusion of many images to represent the content of that grouping of paintings. It is not Wikipedia editors that are positing that a fairly diverse group of paintings fall under one umbrella term. Though I lack the authority to say this I think substantial support in sources is found for the congregation of what seems to me to be a fairly diverse group of paintings under the style "color field". So, I ask you—how can a reader recognize the content of "color field" without a fair number of examples? Bus stop (talk) 18:17, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
On WP, with the NFC policy, the solution is to provide blue-links to articles where more examples can be found. We can't just plaster lots of non-free images in one article or massively reuse them. --Masem (t) 19:26, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

Nomination for merging of Template:WikiProject History of photography

Template:WikiProject History of photography has been nominated for merging with Template:WikiProject Photography. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for discussion page. Thank you. Qono (talk) 01:18, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Lead image poll, after battles with sockpuppets

here - comments welcome. Johnbod (talk) 23:28, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

A link to a DAB page

According to the article on Rotem Reshef, 'The “Deep” pools are a "punctum" in the painting, they collect the different shades of paint, and can also be seen as their source of origin'. Punctum is a DAB page with no obviously relevant article. Can anyone help solve this puzzle? Narky Blert (talk) 14:25, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

That sentence is unsourced analysis so I'd just remove it. czar 15:18, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
Why remove it? Why not just remove the internal linkage? Bus stop (talk) 18:06, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
? Because verifiability is the basis of the encyclopedia, all analytic claims require reliable sources. czar 20:07, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
Does it follow that you wish to remove all analytic claims in the section in which the reference to "punctum" is found, that being the section called Bodies of work and exhibitions? Similar claims are made in relation to other works found in that section. This question only arose because the word punctum links to a disambiguation page. Bus stop (talk) 20:35, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
Yes, source analytic claims to reliable, secondary sources or remove them. czar 13:23, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
I made this edit and this edit. Referring just to the paragraph called "Deep", is it still unsatisfactory? Bus stop (talk) 14:14, 14 July 2018 (UTC)
It's all about this, which has been applied to paintings as here - I'll let you judge how successfully. Johnbod (talk) 22:00, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
Cutting to the chase. That link to a DAB page is useless to readers. One way or another, it needs to be fixed.
As a reader, I have no idea at all what 'punctum' in that quote is supposed to mean. I am tempted to call it pretentious waffle (AKA BS). Narky Blert (talk) 23:47, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
In the Rotem Reshef article, without further explanation, the use of the word "punctum" is saying very little. The word "punctum" is found in the Roland Barthes article. It could be linked to that article but such linkage could be incorrect. I would just leave it as an unlinked and unfortunately unclear term. Bus stop (talk) 23:53, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
I see that punctum in Rotem Reshef still links to a DAB page. That is less than satisfactory. Readers who click on that link will still be left unencylopedially confused and baffled.
This problem needs to be not sidestepped but solved, to help our readers. The current link to the DAB page is worse than useless. Narky Blert (talk) 23:30, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
I've made this edit. Bus stop (talk) 23:35, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
The source of the statement appears to be Reshef herself. On https://www.rotemreshef.com/deep, where she writes: "Pools of diluted paint gather in layers on top of each other, creating a punctum to the painting’s composition, a pond or even an eye that looks back at the viewer". That composition/punctum duality doesn't sound like Barthes' studium/punctum to me. I think that they mean focal point or center of interest. I'd suggest that we clarify that this is the artist speaking about the work, not an independent critic or art historian. I don't know if secondary sources for the descriptions of each of the series exist. I tried, but couldn't find anything. Vexations (talk) 21:50, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
It is quite possible that the artist spoke with a meaning known only to themselves. bd2412 T 22:01, 11 July 2018 (UTC)
The artist is using the word in its straightforward dictionary definition. I've made this edit. Bus stop (talk) 06:53, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Seeking feedback on a guide for students who edit articles about art history

Hello! Wiki Education is developing a guide to help students write about all topics related to art history. The handout is meant to supplement other resources that they consult, such as an interactive training and basic editing brochures. We’d love to get some community feedback on the draft here: User:Cassidy_(Wiki_Ed)/Art_history. We're looking to gather feedback by August 16th. Feel free to respond here or on the draft's talk page. Thanks so much! Cassidy (Wiki Ed) (talk) 18:01, 7 August 2018 (UTC)

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