Talk:Herschel Prins

A fact from Herschel Prins appeared on Wikipedia's Main Page in the Did you know column on 15 September 2021 (check views). The text of the entry was as follows:

Did you know... that criminologist Herschel Prins found in 1993 that young black men at Broadmoor Hospital were often stereotyped as "big, black and dangerous"?

A record of the entry may be seen at Wikipedia:Recent additions/2021/September. The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Herschel Albert Prins.

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The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 06:16, 3 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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Article history

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~~... that criminologist Herschel Prins asked whether young Afro-Caribbean men were "big, black and dangerous?"?~~
- ALT1:... that ...?

Reviewed: George Curtis

Created by Whispyhistory (talk), Edwardx (talk), and Philafrenzy (talk). Nominated by Philafrenzy (talk) at 13:00, 3 August 2021 (UTC).[reply]

General: Article is new enough and long enough
New enough: Long enough:

Policy: Article is sourced, neutral, and free of copyright problems
Adequate sourcing: Neutral: Free of copyright violations, plagiarism, and close paraphrasing:

Hook eligibility:

Cited:
Interesting:
Other problems: - Hook is misleading

QPQ: Done.

Overall: Article is new enough, long enough and sourced. qpq has been provided, and Earwig is only picking up false positives. The hook is not quite ready, because quoting the title of his report without context might imply to readers that Prins was racist. In reality, the article explains that he actually refuted the idea that young black men were dangerous, and his report found that they were mistreated due to systemic racism. I think it would be better to go with a hook that is less misleading about Prins and the nature of his work, just in case people don't read the article. BuySomeApples (talk) 22:52, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I don't think that we are responsble for the reactions of those who don't bother to read the article, and there is already a clear implication in the hook that he didn't think that, but perhaps there is an alternative form of words. Philafrenzy (talk) 23:55, 6 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It might come down to a slight tweak which is probably worth the effort. I do think that we're a bit responsible for making sure that the hooks are accurate-ish, since the rules do say to be careful not to misstate the content. What do you think of ALT1 @Philafrenzy:? BuySomeApples (talk) 00:20, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

ALT1:... that criminologist Herschel Prins questioned the idea that young Afro-Caribbean men were "big, black and dangerous" during his inquiry into the deaths of black patients at Broadmoor Hospital? BuySomeApples (talk) 00:20, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you @BuySomeApples: and @Philafrenzy:. How about below...Whispyhistory (talk) 10:34, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

ALT2:... that criminologist Herschel Prins incorporated the subtitle "big, black and dangerous" in his report title, to reflect the racist labelling that allowed young black men at Broadmoor Hospital to be restrained rather than receive treatment? [1]

ALT3:... that criminologist Herschel Prins's inquiry into the treatment of young black men by the British criminal justice system found that at Broadmoor Hospital they were often stereotyped as "big, black and dangerous"? Philafrenzy (talk) 18:32, 7 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Whispyhistory: both those hooks are great! They each run over the 200 character limit, so I trimmed down ALT3 below, let me know what you think. BuySomeApples (talk) 06:52, 9 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

ALT3b:... that criminologist Herschel Prins's inquiry into the treatment of black men by the British criminal justice system found that at Broadmoor Hospital they were stereotyped as "big, black and dangerous"? BuySomeApples (talk) 06:52, 9 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Okay with me. Thank you. Whispyhistory (talk) 13:37, 11 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Alt3b needs approval by a different editor. BuySomeApples (talk) 19:17, 12 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This is only a comment and not a review, but ALT3b is 199 characters and thus I would highly suggest shortening it somehow (perhaps by removing the mention of the hospital?). Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 03:21, 23 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

We are in danger of making his specific finding into a general finding. I see "young" has been dropped already in 3b from my 3. I don't think we should drop the hospital name either and it needs the year to be fair to the hospital as things may and probably have changed. How about:

ALT3c:... that in 1994, criminologist Herschel Prins found that at Broadmoor Hospital, young black men were often stereotyped as "big, black and dangerous"? Philafrenzy (talk) 08:47, 23 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I like this althook @Philafrenzy: and @Narutolovehinata5:, it slims it down pretty nicely without losing context. BuySomeApples (talk) 17:56, 23 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I see. Does the nomination still have any remaining issues? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:46, 24 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't notice anything else while I was reviewing it @Narutolovehinata5:. BuySomeApples (talk) 03:27, 24 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I see. Are you ready to approve this nomination then? Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 04:37, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yes @Narutolovehinata5:! I just wasn't sure if I could approve a hook that I proposed or significantly edited. BuySomeApples (talk) 07:04, 25 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

BuySomeApples, I think you're correct to call for an uninvolved reviewer to approve ALT3c given your participation in the previous hook iterations.

New reviewer needed for ALT3c hook. Many thanks. BlueMoonset (talk) 02:05, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'll approve the hook—it is interesting, cited, and an accurate representation of how the quote was used. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (they/them) 04:18, 26 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]