Talk:Jewish exodus from the Muslim world/Archive 6

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RFC: Is the One Million Plan relevant to the topic of this article?

The following discussion is an archived record of a request for comment. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this discussion. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

There is consensus against mentioning in the sidebar and lede per WP:WEIGHT. AlbinoFerret 01:52, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

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Is the One Million Plan relevant to the topic of this article, such that it should be mentioned in the lead, the body of the article and linked in the sidebar? This recent edit has removed the relevant text. Oncenawhile (talk) 15:13, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

RFC discussion

• Yes, as nominator. As we say in the article, two thirds of the exodus went to Israel, and this plan represents the first time these populations were considered as a group of potential immigrants. Here are a selection of sources showing its significance in the context of the topic of this article:

(1) "From both a political and an operative perspective, the One Million Plan had no immediate significance, its importance was on the level of principle, because it reflected the attitude of the Zionist institutions toward the Jews of Islamic countries as potential citizens of the Jewish state, a commitment to their welfare and safety and acknowledgment of the importance of Zionist activity among them. This message that Palestine wanted Jewish immigrants from Islamic countries came through loud and clear, and its echoes could be heard in all the Jewish communities in these countries... ...As we have seen the inclusion of the Jews of Islamic countries in the One Million Plan was the start of a reversal in immigration policy and in the overall attitude of the Zionist leadership toward these Jews. The reversal was manifested both in the conceptual switch from an ideal of selective immigration to the reality of bringing masses of people to Palestine.... the One Million Plan augured a demographic reversal with ramifications for all areas of life. including a change in the Ashkenazic Mizrahi demographic balance in the country" (Meir-Glitzenstein, Zionism in an Arab Country, 2004)

(2) "The Abadan case was the first systematic encounter between Zionist emissaries and Arab Jews following the formulation of the so-called million-person plan (which should be read as the "million Jews plan") providing for the massive immigration of these Jews to Palestine. Even if the plan was not implemented immediately, and even if some of its provisions were unfeasible, it marked the start of a discourse and the initial spotlighting of the Arab Jews as potential candidates for immigration to Palestine" (Shenhav, The Arab Jews, 2006)

(3) "The principal significance of this plan lies in the fact, noted by Yehuda Shenhav, that this was the first time in Zionist history that Jews from Middle Eastern and North African countries were all packaged together in one category as the target of an immigration plan. There were earlier plans to bring specific groups, such as the Yemenites, but the "one million plan" was, as Shenhav says, "the zero point," the moment when the category of mizrahi jews in the current sense of this term, as an ethnic group distinct from European-born jews, was invented." (Eyal, The Disenchantment of the Orient, 2006)

Oncenawhile (talk) 15:14, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: This RfC is not addressing the actual problem as can be seen by previous discussions above. The issue was WEIGHT. Nobody objected to any mention, and in fact it is currently mentioned (and wikilinked to) in the body of the article. I suggest reformulating and reopening. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 15:20, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Have you already forgotten the comments at Template talk:Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries? You wrote "all but one editor thinks the One Million Plan is significant", and Greyshark wrote of "two unrelated topics". And on this article, if you don't object to its mention, why have you vandalised the article by deleting the entire section? And why did Greyshark write above that "Should be removed... One sentence at most is enough"?

This RFC addresses your and Greyshark's comments and actions directly. Oncenawhile (talk) 15:23, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Tell you what. You can continue to misrepresent what I said (despite the fact the discussions are on this page for everyone to read), we'll let this RfC run its course, and in a month or two you can open another one to decide the proper WEIGHT, then a couple of months after that we can start a discussion on the actual text. I'm done here. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 15:28, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Should we therefore assume that you believe this topic to be relevant to the topic of the article? You previously stated you believe it to be worth one paragraph of text, despite the four previous version being in line with the weighting in Meir-Glitenstein's book (per [1]). So why have you removed the link from the sidebar? Oncenawhile (talk) 15:37, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

• Of course it is relevant, the result of this RfC is obvious because of how it's phrased. The real issue to discuss is WP:WEIGHT “WarKosign” 15:41, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Not everyone agrees with you here. See Greyshark's numerous comments on the topic, and the deletion from the sidebar. Oncenawhile (talk) 15:46, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

The sidebar is also an issue of WEIGHT. If you want to make this RfC about inclusion in the sidebar, you should make that the sole question. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 15:53, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

If it is relevant, it should go in the sidebar. Even The David Project is in the sidebar. So let's conclude whether it's relevant first, since your and Greyshark's comments have suggested it might not be. Oncenawhile (talk) 15:56, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

That's untrue, but whatever. I was just trying to speed things along. Have it your way. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 16:25, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

The question in the RfC is whether it bears some relevance. The answer to that is obviously yes. Whether it's relevant enough to include in the sidebar is another quesion, and if it's indeed the subject of the RfC it should me made clear to anyone who comments. I'm not sure what my answer to this is at the moment. “WarKosign” 08:20, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

No, not relevant enough to the subject of this article to include in the sidebar. The plan was not implemented, it did not cause the exodus, was not caused by it nor did they affect each other much. The sidebar already links to Aliyah which contains the plan in its own sidebar, and this as strong a connection as the relevance justifies. “WarKosign” 06:39, 13 October 2015 (UTC)

• Comment: I have not read everything on the talk page, but it seems that everyone agrees that it is relevant? If so, we should include it in the sidebar, and then discuss the issue of due weight, and this RfC can be closed? Kingsindian ♝♚ 16:28, 11 October 2015 (UTC)
  • No. It should not be in the sidebar. That in itself is an issue of WEIGHT. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 16:48, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Can we rephrase the question then, on whether it should be included in the sidebar or not? If that is the question, then these are my thoughts. I am not too knowledgeable on the topic: however Mizrahi Jews in in the sidebar. See for instance this book, which states that the One Million Plan directly led to the creation of the category of Mizrahi Jews (pg. 89) as a unified category. Meir-Glitzenstein also affirms itss importance (pg 44-46 has a long discussion on its importance) - it did not have immediate implementation, but : its importance was on the level of principle...The message - that Palestine wanted Jewish immigrants from Islamic countries - came through loud and clear, and its echoes could be heard in Jewish communities in these countries. Both Meir-Glitzenstein and Eyal emphasize the plan's importance to absorption and settlement of Jews from Arab countries (this aspect can probably be enlarged in the text of the main article). They were supposed to be settled in the southern periphery. Meir-Glitzenstein also details the sending of emissaries to Iraq in the early 1940s (there is a full chapter on this). Kingsindian ♝♚ 17:18, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I am familiar with all those sources. I rewrote most of the One Million Plan article to remove gross NPOV violations and tendentious editing. This is why I suggested above to rephrase the question of this RfC, but the proposer doesn't seem to want to. I do not necessarily agree with your idea on how much weight and in which articles, though. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 17:27, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

I have already stated my opinion that it should be included in the sidebar, because of its importance to Mizrahi Jews, and given a fair bit of weight in the article. As Meir-Glitzenstein states in his conclusion (pg. 47): the One Million Plan was the start of a reversal in immigration policy and in the overall attitude of the Zionist leadership towards the Jews. It is hardly possible to understand the immigration of Jews into Israel from Arab countries without some elaboration of this plan. You may disagree or not (I have no idea why you disagree), but I've given my own viewpoint. Kingsindian ♝♚ 17:44, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Meir-Glitzenstein is female, so it's her conclusion. I understand what you said, no need to repeat it. I disagree with your conclusions. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 17:52, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - the question is not relevance (which is marginal), but the importance of this plan and its weight. This plan was drafted prior to the Arab-Israeli conflict and couldn't have foreseen the expulsion and exodus. The fact is that it was aborted much prior to the onset of the Jewish exodus (from 1947/8), so the attempt to present it as a key background issue by Oncenawhile is a pure synthesis, driven by a his own agenda (which is very confusing i might say). One sentence at most is enough on this issue in the background to show that coordinated immigration policy had been attempted (and failed) before the onset of the exodus in 1948.GreyShark (dibra) 17:33, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

I have pasted above a number of scholarly quotes which position this as a key background issue. I suggest you comment directly on those, as my agenda is simply to ensure the sources are appropriately reflected.

And what does "couldn't have foreseen the expulsion and exodus" mean? Noone said it could - it sounds like a strawman argument. Also the plan was not "aborted" - I suggest you read about successor plans such as that presented to the Knesset in 1948 for the immigration of 600,000.

Oncenawhile (talk) 23:18, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

It was not "aborted", it was written by people who could not implement it to begin with. The Jewish Agency did not have any control whatsoever over the immigration to Mandatory Palestine. It was a "what if", and it never happened. Do you have a source that uses the term "successor plans"?

Its significance is that it was the first time MENA Jews were treated as one group. That's it. That's tangentially related to this article, and definitely UNDUE for the multiple sidebars you put it in. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 23:54, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

The entire page on One Million Plan is written as a conspiracy theory, with unclear relevance to the topic.GreyShark (dibra) 09:37, 12 October 2015 (UTC)

In any case my vote is a clear No - it should not appear in the lead; perhaps we can add one sentence in the background citing that it was the first time that Middle Eastern and North African Jews were mentioned in immigration plans of the Zionist leadership, though nothing concrete emerged from this plan.GreyShark (dibra) 08:46, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

• No - summoned by bot. It should not be mentioned in the lede, which is satisfactory as far as I am concerned, and as far as I can tell there is no sidebar. In my opinion, it should be mentioned in the third paragraph of the introduction and of course it should be mentioned in the article. —Мандичка^YO 😜 00:07, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
• No, because of WP:WEIGHT. Zezen (talk) 00:52, 2 November 2015 (UTC)
• Yes, of course it is. Oncenawhile, this article generally needs serious clean-up because it's poisoned by ultra-right Israeli propaganda. A Serbo-Croatian article should be helpful for repairing because it contains a lengthily review about controversies in historiography and politics/economy. Considering everything is sourced on academic publications written by Jewish and Israeli authors (I see even Zionists like Chouraqui, Gat, Kazaz and Meir-Glitzenstein!), far-right Israeli pseudohistory must be treated as Nazi propaganda because it has nothing to do with Jews, Israel or even Zionism. --MehrdadFR (talk) 14:09, 5 November 2015 (UTC)
• No Putting it in sidebar or lede gives UNDUE WEIGHT. What many editors on this page appear not to understand is that Zionism is largely hot air. Zionist congresses and leaders constantly announced grandiose plans involving millions of immigrants. (They still do. Just last year Netanyahu wanted the entire Jewish community of France to pull up stakes and move to Israel.) Calling this plan their "primary goal and top priority" did not mean that more than an enthusiastic minority of the world's Jews were paying it any attention at all. The fact is that Zionist announcements were largely ignored by non-Zionist Jews. Pre-Hitler, the Jews of Eastern Europe were patriots of the countries where they lived, supported Marxist movements, immigrated to America, and/or supported Zionism while they went on living in Mogador and Odessa - only a few actually moved to Palestine. Same thing in the 1944-45. Jews in the Maghreb, Turkey, Mesopotamia and Persia mostly stayed put; for all the usual reasons (the same reasons why the fin de siecle Ashkenazim hadn't come): Life had been stable for Jews in the French Maghreb and British colonies of Egypt and Iraq; Palestine was poor and everyone knew that it was really, really tough to earn a living there. The One Million Plan article oddly ignores this fact, but mostly it simply ignores reality, which was that in all countries and in every period going back to the return from Babylon led by Ezra and Nehemiah, the appeal to Jews to pull up stakes, sell the family home and business, and go up to Zion appeals to a dedicated minority. The One Million Plan was effectively a press release, not a plan by a government with the actual power to enact a policy that could move a million Russian or Iraqi Jews to choose to come live in Palestine. Mass movements of Jews to Israel have never been conjured by a Zionist declaration or plan; they happen when countries become uninhabitable for Jews. A very large percentage of the Jews in post-war displaced persons camps in Europe understood the Zionist idea and made aliyah. To argue that they came because of this "Plan" is to give the Third Reich too little credit for its impact on Jews. Putting the One Million Plan into the lede or sidebar has the effect of making it appear that it was a significant causative factor in the movement of Jewish populations in the 1940s. It was not. It was just another Zionist press release.E.M.Gregory (talk) 13:53, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Hi E.M.Gregory, I agree with almost all of what you wrote, with two exceptions. Firstly, I don't understand the relevance of your point regarding Jews in post-war displaced persons camps in Europe and the Third Reich as it relates to the subject of this article? Secondly, your thesis appears to rely on the statement that "Mass movements of Jews to Israel have never been conjured by a Zionist declaration or plan; they happen when countries become uninhabitable for Jews." I could not see any support for the "...have never..." part of your statement, and it disagrees with what I have read in the sources. It also ignored the various Israeli government operations such as Operation Magic Carpet, Operation Ezra and Nehemiah, and Operation Yachin. The crux is perhaps the last part, "...when countries become uninhabitable..." which is an inherently subjective judgement which would have been constantly reassessed by every Jew living in these countries. Yet the facts in this article suggest that most governments in the region protected their Jewish minorities, and problems only began when certain countries had to close to borders to stop Jews from leaving. So why did Jews in those countries start leaving? We cannot ignore the impact of Zionist propaganda and agitation by embedded agents on this question. Oncenawhile (talk) 10:02, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

The operations provided the Jews with the means of leaving, the decision to leave was made by Jews themselves. I doubt that any amount of Zionist propaganda could drive significant numbers of people to worsen their conditions of living. “WarKosign” 12:32, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

WarKosign, I said "propaganda and agitation". See below for more explanation. Oncenawhile (talk) 23:17, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Fact is, it doesn't take many pogroms to persuade Jews that a country has become uninhabitiable - provided that there is a destination. Note that Operation Magic Carpet (Yemen) was precipitated by anti-Semitic events (not all documented on Wikipedia by any means) in including the 1947 Aden riots. That the Farhud triggered Operation Ezra and Nehemiah, and that not only was Operation Yachin triggered by similar events, but that Israel actually had to pay an enormous ransom to the King of Morocco to get the Jews out to safety. I grant that this narrative is complicated by the fact that the idea of going up to Zion is deeply embedded in the Torah itself; that Jews in all generations have made enormous sacrifices to get to Israel and to live there; that many Jews from these lands were ardent Zionists; that many others dreamed of life in the Holy Land, of life in a country where Jews would not only live in the land of the patriarchs, but enjoy the right of self-determination and self-government (rather than life - even secure and prosperous life - as dhimmi). But if aliyah was a long-held dream and desire, it nevertheless remains true that each of these communities went up to Israel en mass when life in their birthplaces became impossible for Jews. Not because a Zionist announced an immigration target number.E.M.Gregory (talk) 14:36, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

E.M.Gregory, your facts are wrong. That is a propaganda narrative, not a scholarly narrative. Re Yemen/Aden, these were two different countries at the time, one of which was a British colony. There were no such riots in Yemen, just impoverishment and a civil war that did not involve the Jews (see Tudor Parfitt). In Aden the colonial governement protected all citizens, and the Aden riots you mention were thought by the British to have been sparked by a Zionist sniper in order to agitate. This is sourced in the riot's wiki article. The same agitation was thought by colonial authorities to have happened in Libya and Morocco, sparking riots there (and don't forget the Baghdad bombings). Agitation and propaganda clearly had a part to play in the subject of this article, and the One Million Plan and the zionist agents which were sent around the region in its wake, are fundamental when considering the background to all of this. Oncenawhile (talk) 23:17, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

OF course I am aware that Aden, while a British colony, had been a land of unusual opportunity for Jews. And of the political complexities of the region. What you are unaware of is the historiography of Jews in the region, where there certainly were, as I stated, in that period: " anti-Semitic events (not all documented on Wikipedia by any means) in including the 1947 Aden riots". No one denies that Zionist organization and programs played a role, but the fact is that a mere handful of fringe historians characterize them as a primary factor. The Israeli programs to ransom, transport and support the migrants were significant. The One Million Plan simply was not.E.M.Gregory (talk) 01:44, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

E.M.Gregory please provide a source for what you claim I am unaware of. Separately, do you agree that the only sources which suggest that anti-semitism was the primary factor in the exodus are propaganda tracts? If not, please provide sources for your claim there too. Oncenawhile (talk) 08:09, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps it is worth emphasizing that this RfC is about the relevance of the One Million Plan to the emigration. Nobody is claiming a simplistic thesis that because the Israeli govt. announced such a plan people migrated because of it. The reasons for emigration were complex and are summarized already in the lead. The plan's importance lay in three things: a) A change in the message, saying that Palestine was open to immigration from Jews in surrounding countries b) Defining the category of Mizrahi Jews c) Plans for their absorption into Israel, which were partly followed afterwards. All quotes are given in my comment above. Kingsindian ♝♚ 09:24, 25 November 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Maghreb and Mashreq

Some users are trying to push here Caliphate style concepts, which are purely pan-Arabist, such as Maghreb and Mashreq. This is entirely not accepted and more to say most English readers don't know those Arabist concepts and their meaning.GreyShark (dibra) 17:06, 12 December 2015 (UTC)

Long page

See here: this article is the 885th longest out of all 5 million articles in wikipedia. Oncenawhile (talk) 13:18, 13 January 2016 (UTC)

We can start trimming it by removing some stuff from the further reading section, which is way too big. See WP:FURTHER. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 20:11, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

I wonder then why Exodus of Iran's Jews was unilaterally merged into this article by Oncenawhile about 1.5 years ago. This was about 7kb of info and certainly notable. The transfer of Iran's Jews exodus topic would reduce the size of this article.GreyShark (dibra) 06:41, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Talk:Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries/Archive_3#Merge_proposal_with_Iran_exodus_article and Talk:Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries/Archive_5#Split_section_on_Iran.

I don't have any objection to a separate article on that topic, but there is not rationale for it to be treated differently from other large sections we have in this article. Oncenawhile (talk) 08:33, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Looks like the article stands at 200+ kB. Certainly a justification for a few size splits if you can't find a justification for any content splits. Size alone, there's enough content for about four separate articles.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 09:51, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

Editor attempting to remove Antisemitism article on template page

On the template page, an editor is attempting to remove the Antisemitism article, the discussion is here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries It's curious because multiple reliable sources were provided detailing antisemitism as part of the exodus, along with the consensus on this page. The editor appears to be claiming that it is WP:Synth to write Antisemitic in place of anti Jewish, as if they were different, I've also had ridiculous personal attacks thrown at me. Since this is the primary article (corresponding with the template), I'm requesting comments/assistance. Thanks! Drsmoo (talk) 17:12, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Let me guess who is this editor.... mmmm Once?GreyShark (dibra) 20:05, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

To clarify, of course I am not claiming it is "WP:Synth to write Antisemitic in place of anti Jewish". I am claiming that it is WP:Synth to state Antisemitism was an important factor in the background to the exodus without sources explicitly stating that.

Look, unfortunately the world is full of bigots, whether anti-semitic or any other kind of bigotry. Just because Jews left these countries, and there were anti-semites in the countries, isn't enough for us to connect the two. We need WP:RS to state clearly that anti-semitism was an important factor in the background. I suggest you read this article: "Neo-lachrymose Conception of Jewish-Arab History" for some context. Oncenawhile (talk) 20:27, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Thankfully plenty of reliable sources have directly clarified the significant role of anti semitism in the exodus. These can be found in this article as well as graciously written out in the talk page discussion you started when you ignored consensus. Out of curiosity, why are you removing the categories from the template page when they've been in the main article for a long time. The template page gets a lot less traffic, so if you disagree with that categorization, wouldn't the main article be a better place to gather consensus? Drsmoo (talk) 21:01, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Behold: "It speaks of the forgotten exodus of nine hundred thousand Jews from Arab countries who "were forced to flee and in some cases brutally expelled amid coordinated violence and anti-Semitic incitement that amounted to ethnic cleansing.". Countless other sources support it, perhaps some say the same thing less explicitly.“WarKosign” 21:20, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

JCPA is an advocacy organization, and definitely not WP:RS.

Guys, please be careful on this topic. It has been heavily embraced by pro-Israeli advocacy organizations for reasons which are obvious, and explained well by authors such as Shenhav. If something of this magnitude is beyond doubt, we will be able to find proof in high quality RS.

Drsmoo, i don't understand your "out of interest" point. Read the Background section to this article, and compare it to the background section you are trying to build in the template.

Oncenawhile (talk) 22:46, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

The articles you removed from the template's sidebar are present in this article's sidebar and have been for quite some time. You haven't answered the question of why you are attempting to (against consensus) remove them from the template without commenting on the main article at all. It's very strange as this article gets significantly more traffic and has the same sidebar as concerns your edit. Additionally, I'm not "building" a sidebar, I reverted your edits which were made against consensus. You should read this article. It describes the role of anti semitism in the Jewish exodus. Additional reliable sources were provided in the template talk page. Your WP:Idontlikeit response to these sources as well as the sources in this article along with the consensus does not entitle you to ignore them. Drsmoo (talk) 23:49, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Drsmoo, the template's sidebar is this article's sidebar - it is the same thing. I have commented on the main article, and serial tag teamer Plot Spoiler has reverted it without discussion. I have read this article in great detail - for proof see here. There really is no source in this article substantiating anti-semitism as an important factor behind the exodus. I have explained what I mean here. You have still not substantiated your edit to the template. Oncenawhile (talk) 10:26, 23 December 2015 (UTC)

I can't believe anyone who has claimed to have read any books on the subject of this article can pretend that "there is no source in this article substantiating anti-semitism as an important factor behind the exodus" is not an extremely tendentious argument. It's a sad reflection of on the state of this encyclopedia that the person who made that argument has made hundreds of edits to this article. Seriously. Anyway, here's a quote from the book I happen to be reading at the moment, that says it explicitly: "Anti-Jewish riots in most Middle Eastern and North African countries after the establishment of the State of Israel 1948, and subsequent outbursts of anti-Jewish fervor that accompanied Israeli victories over the Arab states, ultimately led to the emigration of entire communities indigenous to the Middle East and North Africa since ancient times." The Jews of the Middle East and North Africa in Modern Times p. 27. I hope this puts that stupid argument to rest. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 07:50, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. Good to see you spent the last three weeks productively. Please add this as a source in to the article. Oncenawhile (talk) 10:27, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

If you knew what I do with my time when I'm not wasting a few minutes of it here addressing frivolous requests by tendentious editors such as yourself, it would blow your mind. Where exactly do you think this source is necessary? No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 20:08, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

After the word antisemitism in the last paragraph of the lead.

By the way, please let me know if you ever need help with anything. I worry about people when they feel the need to project their own self-importance to unknown strangers. Numerous psychological studies have shown that such behaviour belies a deep lack of underlying self confidence. It probably goes without saying, but I am here for you if you ever need anyone to speak to.

Oncenawhile (talk) 09:24, 16 January 2016 (UTC)

lol @ "underlying lack of self confidence". You should really stop trying to rile me up. You're not good at it, and it never ends well for you.

As for putting the source in the lead, that's not necessary. The lead is supposed to summarize the body article, and anyone except a purely tendentious POV pusher can see that antisemitism being a factor of the exodus is part of the body. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 22:32, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Thanks for the reminder. Maybe I am a sucker for punishment. I guess I accept your continued verbal bullying because I have convinced myself that you must have been bullied a lot yourself so it's not really your fault that you behave this way.

Anyway, without a source in the article, the conclusion you are referring to is WP:SYNTH. Since you spent three weeks trying to find it, you might as well add it in. You may be interested to note that you needn't have bothered [2]. Oncenawhile (talk) 22:42, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

Why is this discussion even continuing? You wanted a source and there's a source? No need for the pissing contest.-Serialjoepsycho- (talk) 23:30, 17 January 2016 (UTC)

You are both clearly deeply concerned with mental wellbeing of each other... or deeply in violation of WP:NPA. Either way, this is not the place for it. “WarKosign” 08:34, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

I'm sorry you guys have to read this kind of nonsense. A few months ago I made a comment about the kind of childish antics you can see above which apparently really hit nerve with him, and since then he's been childishly proving me right. Nothing I can do about it. No More Mr Nice Guy (talk) 17:48, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

You (both) can demonstrate being mature by ignoring what you consider childish antics (or any other term you prefer) rather than responding in kind. “WarKosign” 18:58, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

Notes

References

Request for edit: Advocacy Groups

Hello -- fresh editor here, not exactly sure what the protocol for this is. I'd like to request that another advocacy group be added under the Advocacy Groups section. The group would be Sephardi Voices -- this link can fill you all in on the organization:

http://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-life-and-religion/130482/sephardic-stories-on-the-record

I think that this would be a fitting addition to the page, given the precedent set by placing JIMENA, an organization publicizing the issue, on the list of Advocacy Groups. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Gc717 (talk • contribs) 00:35, 25 June 2016 (UTC)

@Gc717: You provided a link to an article about "Sephardi Voices" project. When I searching for "Sephardi Voices" I found this JIMENA's project. JIMENA is already mentioned under advocacy groups. Did you mean some other project ? “WarKosign” 06:54, 25 June 2016 (UTC)

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Iraqi 1951 law

In 2011, Greyshark09 inserted a quote from Ilan Pappe in this edit, making the edit comment that "better source for Pappe needed". The quote checks out, but Pappe's work provides no source and is made in passing in a work focused on Palestine, not Iraq. In 2014, Erictheenquirer, who rarely edits any more, added "alternative views" in this edit, although a number of the sources fail WP:RS.

Five years since the original edit, this statement is still in the article, until my edit just now pending this discussion. The statement is not found in any of the 11 Iraq-specific sources that we now have in the article.

Since, five years later, we still do not have a better source, it's time to remove this text.

Happy thanksgiving...

Oncenawhile (talk) 08:59, 24 November 2016 (UTC)

Tel Or

The claim that Tel Or was "the only Jewish settlement in Transjordan" is BS. Tel Or was not in Transjordan.

"mounted a mortar and artillery attack from Transjordan on Haganah forces at the Naharayim (Jisr al Majami) police fort and neighboring Kibbutz Gesher, on the Palestine side of the international frontier." Page 134

"It was therefore logical that the region be included in within the Jewish state, especially as, in 1922, when the British fixed the boundary line between Palestine and Transjordan they had already included the area in Palestine." Page 35 Makeandtoss (talk) 09:38, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

This map from 1935, mentioned at Tel Or's talk page puts it on the East side of the Jordan river. Which source contradicts it ? “WarKosign” 16:40, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

The two sources I just quoted, obviously. --Makeandtoss (talk) 20:02, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

I can't open the links, google books refuses to show me the pages you named. I believe you copied the text correctly, but I don't see how these quotes refer to Tel Or, they don't seem to even mention it. “WarKosign” 20:55, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

They do, but I just quoted the important part because I was too lazy to type out all the passage. The first source failed to open, but it did the first time, absurd. Here's a screenshot from the second quote. [3] Makeandtoss (talk) 21:10, 12 December 2016 (UTC)

This quote does not position Tel Or on either side of the border. It only says that the power station near Tel Or was within Palestine's border 1922. “WarKosign” 08:39, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

It says that there were fourteen hundred people living there, and they specified that "there" included the Tel Or settlement, and that it was within Palestine. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:20, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

Tel Or is not in the list, "power station in Heharaim (Tel Or)" is. You need a source that explicitly and unambiguously says Tel Or was in Palestine. “WarKosign” 16:13, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

[4] Another source that puts Tel Or in Palestine/Israel. While there are literally zero sources putting it in Transjordan. Makeandtoss (talk) 20:23, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

This source talks about "Tel Or, Jordan Power House of the Palestine Electric Corporation". It does not mention the Tel Or village/town. “WarKosign” 20:57, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

Tel Or is the name for the settlement only. The power station has the Naharyim name. Its a reliable source, and is highly unlikely to have mixed these names up. Makeandtoss (talk) 21:14, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

Unlikely, and yet it says "Tel Or Power House" and not just "Tel Or" or "Tel Or village". Naharayim is the name of a place near the power station and Tel Or. It is possible they mixed up and called the power station by the name of one place instead of the other. You need a source that says what you want in a way that cannot be misinterpreted if you hope to contradict the maps or other sources that Zero brought up. “WarKosign” 10:50, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

Nahayrim was the location of the power station, as I have understood, is located where the Yarmouk meets the Jordan. It is the area that witnessed the horrendous Island of Peace massacre. Tel Or, the settlement's location, is the current topic of disputed. The settlement could be within a km radius from the station. Makeandtoss (talk) 15:17, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

Tel Or was located East to the Jordanian-British border crossing during the British Mandate period and thus was on the side of the Transjordanian Emirate, so Tel Or residents passed through the checkpoint in case they visited Mandatory Palestine. Today, the remains of the crossing building is on the Israeli side of the border, while the power plant and the remains of the Tel Or village are on the Jordanian side.GreyShark (dibra) 07:17, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

According to all the maps I can find, Tel Or was in Transjordan. Zero^talk 09:24, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

All the maps you found showed that Tel Or was east of the Jordan River, not that it was in the Emirate. These maps are a century old and the reality today is different. The reservoir just north of Tel Or proves as an example. In any case, I don't see any sources stating that Tel Or was in Transjordan. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:20, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

The border was down the main channel of the Jordan River then. That is shown in the maps too. Zero^talk 03:54, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

• "Another area of land that Jordan claimed Israel occupied lay in the northern Jordan Valley near the confluence of the Jordan and Yarmuk Rivers at a site known as al-Baqura (Naharayim to the Israelis). While minute (some 820 dunams), this land has tremendous strategic and historical importance. The dispute dates to 1927 when British Mandatory authorities prompted the Transjordanian government to sell some 6,000 dunams of land to the Palestine Electric Corporation (PEC). British authorities in Palestine had granted the PEC, whose director was the Zionist industrialist Pinhas Rutenberg, an exclusive concession in 1921 to utilize all the water of the Jordan River and its tributaries to generate electricity. The PEC land was the only large stretch of land in Jordan that had been owned publicly by Zionists prior to 1948." (M. Fischbach, Settling historical land claims in the wake of the Arab-Israel peace, J. Palestine Studies 27(1), 1997, pp. 38-50.)
• "A few years later, at the fourth convention of the Histadrut, Secretary-General David Ben-Gurion gave a long opening speech in which he devoted a significant portion to the Jordan works: 'The plant became the first breach [pritza] in the artificial partition that was carried out by the mandatory government of the land [of Israel] into two parts. The area on which the electrical station was constructed . . . is as we know located beyond the official border of the “National Home.” At Naharayim the first Hebrew position [nekudah] – the first and not the last – was established in Transjordan, situated under the authority of Emir Abdullah." (Fredrik Meiton, Throwing Transjordan into Palestine: electrification and state formation, 1921–1954, in The Routledge Handbook of the History of the Middle East Mandates, p. 296). Zero^talk 04:43, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

I don't see any mention of Tel Or, the settlement. Makeandtoss (talk) 15:17, 14 December 2016 (UTC)

The exact relationship between "Naharayim" and "Tel Or" is unclear to me and I did not find a perfect source. Official maps of the 1940s, such as this one consider them to be the same: the settlement is labeled "Naharayim (Tel Or)". Note that Peace Island did not exist then and all of the settlement is shown in Transjordan. An Israeli map from 1953 shows "Naharayim" for the buildings close to the power station and "Tel Or" for the buildings up to 1km east. In that case also, both Naharayim and Tel Or are in Transjordan. I'm confident there is no detailed contemporary map showing Tel Or in Palestine. Zero^talk 04:37, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

Eh, User:Zero0000: when is the map finished? We probably need more than one map, to show how the territory changed (geographically) over time....It would be nice to finish the Jisr al Majami– article, too. Huldra (talk) 21:10, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

Here is an article on the subject (translation, note it renders "at Naharaim" as "null" for some bizzare reason). “WarKosign” 08:17, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

And here's the problem. Content on that source do not match the content in the section at all. Read this Questions include the role of the Iraqi army, the relationship of Tel Or with the Legion, the role of the Haganah and their abandoning and claim of "a prolonged battle" The source only opened in google translate, I can't determine its reliability. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:48, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

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Edit request on 31 January 2017

The image size of images using ###px should be changed from ###px to |upright=#.##. The width of File:Op Magic Carpet (Yemenites).jpg is currently 240px and should be changed to |upright=1.1 (e.g. 220px x 1.1 = 242px; 300px x 1.1 = 330px). Same for other images. --George Ho (talk) 07:38, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Not done: According to the page's protection level you should be able to edit the page yourself. If you seem to be unable to, please reopen the request with further details. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 14:53, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

@Sir Joseph: I relinquished my rights to edit ECP pages one month ago, especially ones that are under ArbCom enforcement. I want to learn how to carefully edit pages about topics that are under scrutiny before I re-request a grant again. --George Ho (talk) 18:26, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Why should it be changed? Guideline? — Sam Sailor 00:18, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

@Sam Sailor: Normally encouraged by WP:IMGSIZE. Right now, I'm using "400px" as preference. However, if "###px" shall be retained as fixed width, there must be a good reason. Otherwise, I would see very small images at that fixed width. George Ho (talk) 07:16, 13 February 2017 (UTC); edited. 07:18, 13 February 2017 (UTC)

Done — Train2104 (t • c) 15:17, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

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Sudan

Why Sudan in Muslim-majority countries section and not Arab?, it should be in North Africa region section after Libya. Thoughts--Marlo Jonesa (talk) 11:04, 5 January 2017 (UTC)

Edit request 16 June 2017

Morocco 2.3 following the quote from — 'Yehuda Grinker, The Emigration of Atlas Jews to Israel'

On 7th March 1949 the French and Israeli government signed the Juin-Gershomi agreement for an orderly emigration of Jews from Morocco under the auspices of the Jewish Agency. The agreement contained five provisions placing medical and age restrictions on candidates for emigrations.

1. Eighty percent of immigrants from these lands had to be selected from among candidates for Youth Aliyah, pioneering movements, those who belonged to groups planning to found agricultural settlements, professionals up to 35 years of age or families in which the breadwinner was up to age 35.
2. The aforementioned candidates would have to commit in writing to a period of two years in which they would be engaged in agricultural work.
3. Authorization would be granted to the aforementioned candidates only after a full medical examination supervised by a physician from Israel.
4. No more than 20 percent of the immigrants from the countries in question could be over the age of 35.
5. Recommendations of [potential] immigrants by their relatives in Israel would be accepted only on the basis of a declaration of the relative’s willingness and ability to absorb the newcomers.

The screening policy, known as social/medical selection, became official on 27 November 1951. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tsimiski (talk • contribs) 13:53, 16 June 2017 (UTC)

References

Please find source

This sentence need sourcing:

When presenting the history, those who view the Jewish exodus as analogous to the 1948 Palestinian exodus generally emphasize the push factors and consider those who left as refugees, while those who do not, emphasize the pull factors and consider them willing immigrants.

The sentence is true and much has been written on the question of where on the spectrum of refugee <-> immigrant the Jews leaving the Arab world stood. It needs some source and the only one I can find is this article: http://www.palestineremembered.com/Articles/General/Story2127.html ImTheIP (talk) 14:22, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

The paper looks like a good source - it's quoted by several other papers and books. “WarKosign” 14:40, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

I thought the text was a little too "low-brow" for Wikipedia, but perhaps it isn't! ImTheIP (talk) 20:23, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 6 September 2017

2605:E000:9161:A500:F8FF:295F:5705:F1CE (talk) 19:54, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

Looks like an empty request so it can't be acted upon. “WarKosign” 20:01, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 6 September 2017

evenutally should be eventually 2605:E000:9161:A500:F8FF:295F:5705:F1CE (talk) 20:54, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

Done Emir of Wikipedia (talk) 21:04, 6 September 2017 (UTC)

Split section on Iran

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Until one year ago there was an article on the Exodus of Iran's Jews, which was merged here by Oncenawhile in June 2014. The Iranian Jewish exodus is clearly notable as a topic (for example From Babylonia To Beverly Hills: The Exodus of Iran's Jews, Iranian Jews in U.S. recall their own difficult exodus as they cling to heritage, building new community) and should exist as a standalone article. Most of all because the circumstances and timing of the Iranian Jewish exodus were different from the Jewish exodus from Arab countries. The exodus first took place during the early instability in the 1950s, but during the late 1970s and early 1980s, 90% of Iranian Jews left/fled the country, due to the Islamic Revolution, with roughly 100,000 relocating to US, Europe and Israel.GreyShark (dibra) 11:53, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

Agreed; had I been aware of that merge at the time, I would have objected. They were two separate and distinct events. DoctorJoeE ^{review transgressions}/_{talk to me!} 14:43, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

Greyshark, can you show that the Iranian exodus is any more different that the Egyptian exodus is from the Iraqi exodus or from the Maghrebi exodus or from the Turkish exodus. They are all barely related in practice. And 30,000 Iranian Jews emigrated to Israel during the first years of statehood per this table. Oncenawhile (talk) 23:50, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

You removed the split tag from the article. This is a violation of Wikipedia policy.GreyShark (dibra) 10:10, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

No this is not a policy question at all. Answer my question above (from 23:50, 9 July 2015). Otherwise your statement that "the circumstances and timing of the Iranian Jewish exodus were different from the Jewish exodus from Arab countries" will continue to be ignored as WP:OR. Oncenawhile (talk) 13:38, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

This is disruptive editing. Be careful Once. You are already warned for this.GreyShark (dibra) 15:10, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Vacuous threats will not help you avoid answering the questions raised. Oncenawhile (talk) 00:15, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Greyshark, as the proposer here, can you show that the Iranian exodus is any more different that the Egyptian exodus is from the Iraqi exodus or from the Maghrebi exodus or from the Turkish exodus? They are all barely related in practice. So should we split all the countries out and make their own sub articles? Don't forget that 30,000 Iranian Jews emigrated to Israel during the first years of statehood per this table. Oncenawhile (talk) 00:24, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

• Comment - in continuation to the "long article" discussion above i'm retrieving the Iran discussion and would like more opinions whether to split the Exodus of Iran's Jews into a separate article.GreyShark (dibra) 15:49, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

Please could you either respond to my question above, or else refine your question? Are you proposing a split of ONLY the Iran part, and if so, on what basis do you conclude it should be treated differently to the rest? Oncenawhile (talk) 19:20, 6 September 2016 (UTC)

There are articles on most of the rest. Are you implying exodus of 80,000+ of Iran's Jews is not notable??GreyShark (dibra) 21:13, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

Sign. Of course not. They are all notable. You are simply wrong when you say the other countries already have articles like the one you want for Iran. The trust is they do not. The only similar articles are either wider scope (ie covering the whole history of a country's Jewish community) or much narrower focusing on one particular event. Oncenawhile (talk) 22:46, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

The topic of Exodus of Iran's Jews is clearly passing WP:NOTABLE guidelines and has numerous reports ([5], [6]) works and researches ([7],[8], [9]) and depicted in popular culture ("From Babylonia to Beverly Hills", Iranian Jews recall own exodus, Israel marks exodus of Jews from Arab countries, "30 Years After"). Your deliberate opposition for re-creating the article (previously erased by yourself) is somewhat troubling.GreyShark (dibra) 14:13, 25 October 2016 (UTC)

You continue to avoid the simple question as to whether the Iranian exodus is any more or less notable than any of the others on this page. I am not opposed to splitting the article up as I think you are suggesting, but I am opposed to inconsistency. Oncenawhile (talk) 11:56, 29 October 2016 (UTC)

The only question is WP:NOTABLE and not "how notable it is compared to others". Exodus of Iranian Jews is notable, as pointed out by above sources. End of story.GreyShark (dibra) 07:16, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

You appear obsessed with one topic. Why not consider the bigger picture? We are a general encyclopedia, not a personal bookshelf. Oncenawhile (talk) 10:31, 30 October 2016 (UTC)

Your only topic is ultra-nationalist BS.GreyShark (dibra) 07:18, 13 December 2016 (UTC)

It appears to have been merged without any discussion, FWIW. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 19:15, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

• Comment - this discussion is long overdue. Asking to close it.GreyShark (dibra) 11:34, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Obviously the exodus of Jews from Iran is a notable enough and of a sufficiently unique character to merit a separate article. ZinedineZidane98 (talk) 13:43, 25 August 2017 (UTC)

Sure, and the Iraqi and Maghrebi ones are even more notable and unique. Onceinawhile (talk) 22:04, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

• Comment I'm coming here from Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Requests for closure. As the discussion currently stands a close favoring one side over the other would be more of a "supervote" than an actual close. For this reason I'd like to ask for some clarification.

  @Greyshark09: Onceinawhile has asked multiple times what makes the Jewish Exodus more notable than other articles on similar subjects, but I haven't really seen a response to that. Could you please give me a sample of currently existing articles of similar notability, and explain why this particular exodus is just as notable?

  @Onceinawhile: WP:OTHERSTUFF aside, are you saying that the exodus from Iran is not notable enough to have a standalone article?

  ~Awilley (talk) 21:44, 26 September 2017 (UTC)

Thanks Awilley. I think they are all notable enough for standalone articles. Frankly, many of the exoduses in this article bear no relation to each other, except for the fact that the departure countries are Muslim-majority. So I would propose splitting them all out. The idea of cherry picking just one seems perverse. Onceinawhile (talk) 01:47, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply. If that is the case it might make sense to split it out as a child article, and let the other articles be created naturally if/when interested editors come along. A lot of content doesn't necessarily have to be deleted from this article, and if there's significant duplication that's ok. (See WP:NOTPAPER) If/when the split happens the child article should link back here multiple times (once in the first paragraph of the Lead section) and this article should link to the child article at the beginning of the Iran section using {{Main|Exodus of Iran's Jews}}.

In terms of the other articles, we certainly can't force anybody to create them, but might you or GreyShark be interested in pursuing that project at some point? ~Awilley (talk) 03:17, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

@Awilley: In fact, most of the articles on exoduses from specific countries already exist: Operation Magic Carpet (Yemen), Operation Ezra and Nehemiah (Iraq), Jewish Migration from Lebanon Post-1948, Migration of Moroccan Jews to Israel and there are also related articles of 1956–57 exodus and expulsions from Egypt, Pied-Noir (Algeria) and Day of Revenge (Libya). Thus, the claim WP:OTHERSTUFF is actually supporting the idea of an article on Jewish exodus from Iran, which was shown to be a notable event as much as other exodus events. The exodus from Iran climaxed in the late 1970s and early 1980s (after the Iranian revolution), with 60,000-80,000 of Iranian Jews (most of Iranian Jews) migrating in rush to either US, France or Israel, in what is usually described as refugeehood due to to concerns from the new radical regime; in comparison the exodus of Jews from Iraq climaxed in early 1950s and included some 50,000 Jews (most of Iraqi Jews), the exodus from Yemen climaxed in 1949-50 and included some 50,000 Jews (most of Yemeni Jews), the Migration of Moroccan Jews to Israel included over 200,000 Jews who left or fled Morocco from late 1940s to late 1960s. GreyShark (dibra) 05:27, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

This analysis is misleading. The examples you gave all fall into two categories: (1) specific one-off events, and (2) two migration-to-Israel articles. None of these are "Jewish exodus from [ ]" articles, nor do any have equivalent scopes. Onceinawhile (talk) 10:44, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

Each of the articles Greyshark09 mentioned describes emigrations of (vast) majority of Jewish population of a certain country. These "singular events" lasted long months if not years: Operation Ezra and Nehemiah, Operation Magic Carpet (Yemen), Day of Revenge, 1956–57 exodus and expulsions from Egypt. Pied-Noir describes (among other things) "mass exodus" of Algerian Jews to France. The remaining two articles describe Migration from Lebanon and Morocco over far longer periods. “WarKosign” 12:04, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

The scopes are not comparable. They overlap, sure, but are different. If we are going to split this article up, it should be done in a simple and consistent way. Onceinawhile (talk) 20:43, 27 September 2017 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Table of Jewish population since 1948

In 1948, there were between 758,000 and 881,000 Jews (see table below) living in communities throughout the Arab world. Today, there are fewer than 8,600. In some Arab states, such as Libya, which was about 3% Jewish, the Jewish community no longer exists; in other Arab countries, only a few hundred Jews remain.

Jewish Population by country: 1948, 1972, 2000 and recent times

Country or territory	1948 Jewish population	1972 Jewish population	Recent estimates Updated to 2017-2018
Morocco	250,000–265,000	31,000	2,500–2,700 (2006)	2,000 {2014}	2,200 {2018}
Algeria	140,000	1,000	0	50 {2014}	50 {2018}
Tunisa	50,000-105,000	8,000	9,000-1,000	1,500 {2014}	1,700 {2017}
Libya	35,000-38,000	50	0	0 {2014}	0 {2017}
North Africa total:	475,000–548,000	40,050	3,400–3,700	3,550	3,950
Iraq	135,000-140,000	500	5	5-7 {2014}	10 {2017}
Egypt	75,000-80,000	500	100	40 {2014}	100 {2018}
Yemen and Aden	53,000-63,000	500	330	90 {2014} -50 [2016]	50 {2017}
Syria	15,000-30,000	4,000	100	17 {2014}	100 {2017}
Lebanon	5,000-20,000	2,000	20-40	100 {2012}	100 {2017}
Bahrain	550-600		50	37	30 {2017}
Sudan	350		0	0	0 {2017}
North Africa/Arab countries total:	758,350–881,350	<45,800	<3,795-4,345	<3,802-3,762	4,340
Afghanistan	5,000	100	1	1	1 {2017}
Bangladesh	Unknown		175–3,500	75-100 {2012}	4{2018}
Iran	65,232 (1956}	62,258 (1976}-80,000	9,252 (2006)	8,756 {2014}	8,500 {2018}
Pakistan	2,000–2,500	250	200	0	745 {2017}
Turkey	80,000	30,000	17,800 (2006)	17,300 {2015}	15,300 {2017}
Non-Arab Muslim Countries Total:	202,000–282,500	110,750	32,100	26,157	24,550

I'm new to editing so I did not change anything but I think the table might be a little bit biased. I began tried to look up some of the sources and had trouble verifying them. Source #72 has no title, author's first name or link. Is a New York Times Op-Ed (like #249) of something a "visitor"told the writer in 2013, considered a valid source for determining that there are only 5 to 7 Jews left in Iraq today? Then reference#247 is just a broken link. Source #252 goes to another Wikipedia page and the reference there is no longer what it claims it is. Another, #257, takes one man's word that he's the only Jew in Afghanistan... Anyhow, I just thought I'd mention that the chart looked a tad skewed. NichelleMT (talk) 08:19, 9 September 2018 (UTC)NichelleMT

You are absolutely correct that proper reliable sources should be utilized and no Wikipedia page can be used as a source. You are welcome to verify and mark problematic sources and we can discussing those here if you like. You can also find better sources yourself.GreyShark (dibra) 14:35, 9 September 2018 (UTC)

References

Tom Segev's quote (footnote 300)

... needs a better source according to Wikipedia. The quote is from his book "1949 the First Israelis", p231.

"Deciding to emigrate to Israel from own of the Arab countries was often a very personal decision, as it was in Europe. It was based on the particular circumstances of the individual's life. They were not all poor, or 'dwellers in dark caves and smoking pits,' as poet Nathan Alterman put it [29]. Nor were they always subject to persecution, repression or discrimination in their native lands. They emigrated for a variety of reasons just as the ones who had immigrated from Europe depending on the country, the time, the community, and the person."

 Done. Thanks. Debresser (talk) 20:19, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

Jewish population in Iran

Hi, Last sentence of Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_and_Muslim_countries#Iran is tagged for citation. According to 2012 government census 8,756 Jews live in Iran. Copy this:

<ref name=IranCensus>{{cite web|url=http://www.timesofisrael.com/jewish-woman-brutally-murdered-in-iran-over-property-dispute/#ixzz3Ac6duaqw |title=Jewish woman brutally murdered in Iran over property dispute|publisher=The Times of Israel |date= November 28, 2012 |accessdate=Aug 16, 2014|quote="A government census published earlier this year indicated there were a mere 8,756 Jews left in Iran"}}</ref>

In2wiki (talk) 18:19, 16 August 2019 (UTC)

This source is already in the article, but it doesn't reference the statement of that sentence, nl. that Jews are a protected minority in Iran. Debresser (talk) 17:44, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

@Debresser: BBC Persian has published same numbers, based on 1395 SH (=2016 CE) government census (in Persian,3rd chart):<ref>{{cite web|author=Ali Ghadimi |url=http://www.bbc.com/persian/iran-features-47205770 |title=آیا انقلاب اسلامی اقلیت‌های دینی را از ایران فراری داده است؟|publisher=[[BBC Persian]] |date= February 12, 2019 |accessdate=Aug 17, 2019|language=fa |trans-title="Has Islamic Revolution made religious minorities run away from Iran?"}}</ref>

In2wiki (talk) 19:21, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

Again, the question isn't about numbers but about there being a Jewish community which has protected minority status. Debresser (talk) 19:38, 17 August 2019 (UTC)

Abdullah Al-Tal quotation

@Debresser: you re-added the Al-Tal quote without adding a source connecting it to the exodus. Your edit summary was WP:OR. Do you have a source directly connecting this quote to the subject of this article? Onceinawhile (talk) 21:14, 25 August 2019 (UTC)

@Onceinawhile I don't think a source is needed to explain that massive shelling of a civilian area causes civilians to leave that area. If you want, I am willing to make that point at WP:NOR/N. Debresser (talk) 19:36, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

@Huldra Regarding your edit summary "please don't use architects as sources for the 1948 history", who is an architect? Debresser (talk) 19:36, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

'Non Arab Muslim Countries'

Not very comprehensive, is it? Why is Bangladesh included but not Azerbaijan, which is actually in the middle east AND has a significant Jewish population? Bizarre.

There was no notable exodus from Azerbaijan during the described period; in addition during the 20th century Azerbaijan was a completely secular (non-Muslim) sub-state in the Soviet Union, so describing it as "Muslim" at the time is inaccurate.GreyShark (dibra) 08:24, 12 January 2020 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 7 April 2020

Remove "Following Tunisia's independence from France in 1956, a number of anti-Jewish policies[citation needed] led to emigration, of which half went to Israel and the other half to France.". No sources cited to prove the statement. Ash-meeds (talk) 13:57, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

 Partly done: I rewrote the challenged sentence to remove the information that was unsupported and to reflect the source that was already cited. This challenged information has been unsupported since 2005 and that is plenty of time for a cite to have been added. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 16:36, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

Wrong URL in citation no.261 regarding Afghanistan

The link to the BBC article about last Jew in Afghanistan leads to printable version of the article, which does not exist (404): 261 "'Only one Jew' now in Afghanistan". BBC News. London. 26 January 2005. Retrieved 5 January 2010. Correct url for the article is: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/4206909.stm Also, there is an up-to-date article on this on Wikipedia itself, would it be better to link to this page or rather a more recent (2019) source quoted there than the ten year old BBC source? Technicality nitpicker (talk) 14:48, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 18 June 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved (non-admin closure) ~ Amkgp 💬 20:16, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

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Jewish exodus from Arab and Muslim countries → Jewish ethnic cleansing from Arab and Muslim countries – "EXODUS" is not an accurate term. Jews were not wandering in the desert after being called by God. These were refugees forced out of their own country through pogroms of anti-Jewish incitement and religious violence. We would never refer to the displacement of Christians across MENA as an "exodus". We would never refer to the violent expulsions of Muslims across Europe as an "exodus". This was a series of laws meant to discriminate against and displace Jews, concluding with violence which made them refugees. Words have meaning. Throwing all the Jews out of Arab Countries wasn't an "exodus". It was an ethnic cleansing. Letterman~enwiki (talk) 00:41, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

• Support, but move to Ethnic cleansing of Jews in Arab and Muslim countries. Exodus is euphemistic here.--Geshem Bracha (talk) 11:52, 18 June 2020 (UTC)
• No. For the reason that ethnic cleansing is not an adequate descriptor of the whole phenomenon. Many Jews departed after the 1940s due to Zionist requests the communities relocate to Israel; many of the measures taken after 1948 were restrictive, not expulsive, leaving Jews various options, after that date, there was, as with the Yemenite community, strong pressure for them to move to Israel; many countries for more than a decade stood aside and did not 'cleanse' their Jewish populations, and the historical processes in each case, probably do not warrant a term with the connotations of 'ethnic cleaning' etc. Were each country's actions adequately described per WP:RS, it would be very difficult to speak of 'ethnic cleansing' as a generic Arab practice. Finally, large parts of Israel/Palestine were ethnically cleansed programmatically (75% of Gazans descend from people forced over the border at gunpoint more or less) but we don't speak of that in the relevant articles, except for the one suimmarizing Pappé's book of that name The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine.Nishidani (talk) 12:04, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Support. If your counter argument is Palestine and Ilhan Pappe than you have no place on Wikipedia. This is an article about the Arab ethnic cleansing of Jews.

If you think that Gaza, which occupied by Islamic terrorists and has 0% Jews 0% Christians, is the Arab victim of Jewish ethnic cleansing your simply insnae.

If you think Ilhan Pappe belongs anywhere in Wikipedia as a credible source, your an ideologue and have no place on Wikipedia as an editor. "At best, Ilan Pappe must be one of the world’s sloppiest historians; at worst, one of the most dishonest. In truth, he probably merits a place somewhere between the two." - Benny Morris, Israeli historian.

https://newrepublic.com/article/85344/ilan-pappe-sloppy-dishonest-historian Letterman~enwiki (talk) 15:09, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose. This is a ridiculous POV-push. Also, plenty of articles about expulsions use "exodus": 1948 Palestinian exodus from Lydda and Ramle, Palestinian exodus from Kuwait (1990–91) and more listed at Exodus. Zero^talk 17:42, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose The exodus took place over a period of 20 years or so and many went of their own volition to Israel. Problematic to describe this as ethnic cleansing. The usual reason for this sort of proposal is to improperly equate the situation of the Jews with that of the Palestinians in 1948.Selfstudier (talk) 18:14, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose Not supported by relevant sources. Dimadick (talk) 18:18, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose These events were not an ethnic cleansing and I don't know a single source that would refer to this exodus as an ethnic cleansing. It does not even fit the definition. (@Letterman~enwiki: By the way, no one wes beheaded at Deir Yassin). 2A02:2788:925:F87E:E977:4E0:7431:CDAB (talk) 18:25, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Title

Why does the title need 'Arab' in it? What Arab countries aren't Muslim? Konli17 (talk) 18:21, 19 May 2020 (UTC)

[10] None, it seems to me. Unless someone comes up with a good reason not to, I'll move the article. Konli17 (talk) 04:06, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Not all Arabs are Muslim. There are Christian Arabs too. Many of them, as a matter of fact. And not all Muslims are Arab. There are Muslim countries that are not Arab, like Iran. So we really do need both. Debresser (talk) 23:20, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

My question was "What Arab countries aren't Muslim?", not what Arabs aren't Muslim. When I checked the list of Arab countries I cited above, I couldn't find one that didn't have a Muslim majority. Konli17 (talk) 23:52, 20 May 2020 (UTC)

Apparently all Arab countries are Muslim. Definitely not all Muslim countries are Arab (Indonesia, Iran).

By the way, even if your logic is correct, this is clearly a potentially contested move, so please go through WP:RM#CM. Debresser (talk) 17:35, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

Why would it be contested? Konli17 (talk) 17:51, 21 May 2020 (UTC)

Well, you see that one editor is already not sure about this proposal. Also note that I said "potentially contested". In any case, if you feel strongly about this, then the way to go forward is through WP:RM#CM. Debresser (talk) 00:03, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

We're in agreement that the use of the word 'Arab' in the title is redundant. Why would anyone else have a problem? Konli17 (talk) 00:08, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

No, we are in agreement that all Arab countries are predominantly Muslim. I for one am not sure that because of that I would want to remove "Arab" from the title of this article. Debresser (talk) 00:12, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

Why not? Konli17 (talk) 00:34, 22 May 2020 (UTC)

I don't think you can just say "Arab Countries" because the article covers Iran, Turkey and some other non-Arab countries. I don't think you can just say "Muslim Countries" either, since countries like Lebanon (which according to 1932 census had less than 50% Muslim population) or even Egypt (with roughly 25% Coptic and other Christians at the time) don't easily fall under that rubric either. --Telecart (talk) 21:41, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

Whereas there is a "strange" request to move here below the title was changed resulting of this discussion that was not announced... I think we should not refer to Muslim countries in the title given the expulsions took their roots in political reasons and didn't occur for religious reasons. What about Jewish exodus during the Arab-Israeli conflict. Expulsion form Iran are explained because they are ally of Arab countries in this conflict. @Zero0000 and Nishidani:. 2A02:2788:925:F87E:E977:4E0:7431:CDAB (talk) 18:31, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

It is well documented in secondary sources that this kind of parallelism in terminology arose as a hasbara attempt to propagate a (a) if you speak of a Palestinian tragedy (b) similar things occurred to us, and therefore (c) the two, um, cancel each other out. Like all propagandistic analogies, history's fine detail, particularizing the differences, is lost in otiose generalizations of similitude. Many editors will vote out of (1) a general impression there is a parallel or (2) more studiously, examining the relevant wiki articles. But the wiki articles on this are hopelessly inept and incomplete. The only way to fix that misprision would be an effort to use the extensive historical documentation regarding what happened to Jewish populations from Iran to Morocco. Once that was done, editors would be in a position to judge rationally on the basis of the known historical facts, and not on the cherrypicked lachrymose mush of sameness that tends to characterize this area of Wikipedia.Nishidani (talk) 19:54, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Jews in Eritrea

There is only 1 Jewish Eritrean citizen in Eritrea. His name is Sami Cohen and he runs an import-export business and attends to the Asmara Synagogue. (History of the Jews in Eritrea) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2003:D9:F2F:B300:84F8:46CD:520A:A7F (talk) 17:15, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

Eritrea is not an Arab or majority-Muslim country. I am not sure what the relevance of this comment is. --newmila (talk) 18:04, 23 December 2020 (UTC)

Request to Edit Controversial Unsupported Claim

Quoting from the "Politics and Religion" section:

«Until the establishment of the modern State of Israel in 1948, Jews lived throughout the Levant alongside Muslims and Christians; since then, almost all have been expelled from their homes and sought refuge in Israel. »

It is claimed that almost all indigenous Levantine Jews have been expelled from their homes and sought refuge in Israel.

The linked article about the exodus of Jews from Arab and Muslim countries does not support this claim, stating that: "The reasons for the exoduses are manifold".

Therefore I suggest editing the last part of the quoted paragraph ("almost all have been expelled from their homes and sought refuge in Israel.") into something more factual which makes no presumption on how and why most pre-1948 Levantine Jews moved to Israel. Rolfens (talk) 18:07, 27 January 2021 (UTC)

Alon Liel's statement

@SoaringLL:, since you reverted my edit, can you explain where he talks about UNRWA's definition? This is the part that is used in the reference:

"It's true that many Jews found themselves in Israel without having made plans to come — they escaped from Arab countries. But they were accepted and welcomed here. To define them as refugees is exaggerated," said Alon Liel, a former director-general of the Foreign Ministry. "A refugee is a person who is expelled to another country, where he is not accepted by the government."

This is what can be found in the article:

“It’s true that many Jews found themselves in Israel without having made plans to come — they escaped from Arab countries. But they were accepted and welcomed here. To define them as refugees is exaggerated,” said Alon Liel, a former director-general of the Foreign Ministry. “A refugee is a person who is expelled to another country, where he is not accepted by the government. The Palestinians in Lebanon, or the Sudanese in Israel — they don’t have citizenship of the country they live in.”

Jews who fled Arab countries are entitled to demand compensation for the valuables they left behind, but it is unlikely that the world will accept Ayalon’s narrative of a parallel between Jews and Palestinians, he added. “I do think that, when the day will come for the Israeli government to talk seriously about Palestinian refugees, that the Jewish refugees will help cut cost of compensation to Palestinians. But we’re not close to that day, so why bother with this issue now?” he said.

This is not consistent with the sentence:

Alon Liel, a former director-general of the Foreign Ministry says that many Jews escaped from Arab countries, but he does not call them "Refugees" since his definition for the term "Refugee" is different from UNWRA's definition.

Where does he talk about UNRWA's definition? --IRISZOOM (talk) 00:26, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

I checked this and IRISZOOM is correct. Zero^talk 03:44, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

You are right. It wasn't in the source. I apologize.--SoaringLL (talk) 16:39, 4 June 2021 (UTC) - Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/יניב_הורון

Ok, good we all agree. There are probably other things that could be added from his statement or that article in general. --IRISZOOM (talk) 17:59, 4 June 2021 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 9 September 2021

The Table of Jews in arab/Muslin countires should be updated: Afghanistan 0 {last jew left 7 september 2021) https://www.timesofisrael.com/topic/zebulon-simantov/ Iraq 3 (as of March 2021) Yemen 6-7 (as of March 2021) egypt 9 (As of 2021) Lebanon 29 (as of 2021) Iran 8,500 (As of 2021) Syria 0 (As of 2021) Algeria 50 Lybia 0 tunisa 2,000 {AS of 2018) Morrocco 2,200 {AS of 2018) 50.5.156.162 (talk) 13:37, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

 Partly done: I've updated the data for Afghanistan. Elli (talk | contribs) 22:24, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

Do you also have sources for the other numbers? ―Jochem van Hees (talk) 13:19, 10 September 2021 (UTC)