Talk:Killing of Mohammad Habali

Warning: active arbitration remedies

The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the Arab–Israeli conflict, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:

You must be logged-in and extended-confirmed to edit or discuss this topic on any page (except for making edit requests, provided they are not disruptive)
You may not make more than 1 revert within 24 hours on any edits related to this topic

Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page.

Further information

The exceptions to the extended confirmed restriction are:

Non-extended-confirmed editors may use the "Talk:" namespace only to make edit requests related to articles within the topic area, provided they are not disruptive.
Non-extended-confirmed editors may not create new articles, but administrators may exercise discretion when deciding how to enforce this remedy on article creations. Deletion of new articles created by non-extended-confirmed editors is permitted but not required.

With respect to the WP:1RR restriction:

Clear vandalism of whatever origin may be reverted without restriction. Also, reverts made solely to enforce the extended confirmed restriction are not considered edit warring.
Editors who violate this restriction may be blocked by any uninvolved administrator, even on a first offence.

After being warned, contentious topics procedure can be used against any editor who repeatedly or seriously fails to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process. Contentious topic sanctions can include blocks, topic-bans, or other restrictions.
Editors may report violations of these restrictions to the Arbitration enforcement noticeboard.

If you are unsure if your edit is appropriate, discuss it here on this talk page first. When in doubt, don't revert!

This article was nominated for deletion. Please review the prior discussions if you are considering re-nomination:

No consensus, 1 August 2019, see discussion.
delete, March 3, 2019, see discussion.

This article is rated C-class on Wikipedia's content assessment scale.
It is of interest to the following WikiProjects:

Military history: Middle East / Post-Cold War

This article is within the scope of the Military history WikiProject. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the project and see a list of open tasks. To use this banner, please see the full instructions.Military historyWikipedia:WikiProject Military historyTemplate:WikiProject Military historymilitary history articles

This article has been checked against the following criteria for B-class status:
Referencing and citation: criterion met Coverage and accuracy: criterion not met Structure: criterion met Grammar and style: criterion met Supporting materials: criterion met

Associated task forces:
/
	Middle Eastern military history task force
	Post-Cold War task force

Palestine Low‑importance

	Palestine portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Palestine, a team effort dedicated to building and maintaining comprehensive, informative and balanced articles related to the geographic Palestine region, the Palestinian people and the State of Palestine on Wikipedia. Join us by visiting the project page, where you can add your name to the list of members where you can contribute to the discussions.PalestineWikipedia:WikiProject PalestineTemplate:WikiProject PalestinePalestine-related articles
Low	This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

Biography

	Biography portal This article is within the scope of WikiProject Biography, a collaborative effort to create, develop and organize Wikipedia's articles about people. All interested editors are invited to join the project and contribute to the discussion. For instructions on how to use this banner, please refer to the documentation.BiographyWikipedia:WikiProject BiographyTemplate:WikiProject Biographybiography articles
	This article has been automatically rated by a bot or other tool because one or more other projects use this class. Please ensure the assessment is correct before removing the `\|auto=` parameter.

Disability

Killing of Mohammad Habali is within the scope of WikiProject Disability. For more information, visit the project page, where you can join the project and/or contribute to the discussion.DisabilityWikipedia:WikiProject DisabilityTemplate:WikiProject DisabilityDisability articles

Removal of the relevant background section[edit]

@Stefka Bulgaria: Your removal of completely relevant part of the article is a clear harassment. All the sources used in the background section are supported by the sources directly related to the subject. In fact, those reliable sources have had used the materials you removed as a background material to the death of Habali. You removed "Habali's brother, Alaa, said Mohammed was mentally challenged..." paragraph, showing how so hasty you were at removing the well-sourced section. Btw, soon or late, you'll be responding to the admins regarding your hounding pattern and I warn you against repeating this action. --Mhhossein ^talk 17:53, 31 December 2018 (UTC)[reply]

As for this edit; No, that "Habali was shot by Isreali soldiers" is a well-established fact grounded on concrete sources (even Israeli sources say he was shot dead by an Israeli soldier). The only controversy is over whether or not Habali was killed in a violent protest. The camera footage, as confirmed by Haaretz and some other sources, shows no violence when the shooting was done. --Mhhossein ^talk 20:05, 1 January 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Moving IDF Statement to background section[edit]

User:Mhhossein I dont understand your justification in the edit summary and your moving of the IDF statement to the Background section. Please elaborate and justify this edit. FYI I am objecting this movement of IDF statement to background section. --DBig Xrayᗙ 10:29, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@DBigXray: The material you inserted into the 'event' section was in fact a background to the incident of Habali's death. In other words, groups of Israelis soldiers were carrying out parallel operations in various areas of Tulkarem and their presence was due to the violence does not mean the area where Habali was killed was violent, too. However, your insertion gives the impression that there were violence when he Habali was killed. That said, one may add materials directly related to the death of Habali into the 'event' section. --Mhhossein ^talk 10:55, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

User:Mhhossein thanks for the reply, Please see the link [1]

When the incident was made public, the military responded by claiming that a "violent disturbance of the peace had developed” in the area, that “dozens of Palestinians were throwing stones” and that the soldiers “responded with crowd control means and later with live fire."

IDF has not said that it was different area. IDF statement was clearly a response to the murder charges so claiming that IDF response was for another area and not near Habali's restaurant is blatant WP:OR. IMHO the army statement should be presented as it is with trying to claim that the response was for different area, unless you can find me a statement from the area that clearly and specifically states that the army statement was not covering the area where death occured. --DBig Xrayᗙ 11:10, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

First, you need to write the whole story, notably the fact that "violence" is only the claim of IDF:

The video footage and the eyewitness accounts collected by B’Tselem from people who were near Habali show no absolutely no of sign of any “disturbance,” stone-throwing or use of crowd control measures. Quite the contrary: the soldiers are seen walking unhurriedly, the Palestinians are seen talking amongst themselves, and then the soldiers fatally shoot Habali in the head from a considerable distance.

Second, see I reliable sources say the IDF soldiers were spread in different areas of the city

At about midnight last Tuesday, 100 Israeli soldiers entered Tulkarem to conduct raids in various Palestinian homes. At the time, a few young Palestinians came out onto the street and threw stones at the soldiers, who responded by firing rubber-coated rounds and tear gas. More than two hours later, in a different part of the city, about 30 Israeli soldiers spread out in small teams across a-Nuzha Street and an alley near al-Fadiliyah Boys' High School. Residents of Tulkarem came out of their homes and stood near a local restaurant about 150 metres away from the soldiers to see what was happening.

Third, the IDF's claim was already mentioned in the article. --Mhhossein ^talk 11:00, 4 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

you are not addressing the central point. IDF has stated this in response to the questions of Death. Hence it has to be in the statement section. whatever elaborate claims you have made above does not address this simple fact. --DBig Xrayᗙ 15:17, 13 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Shot in the leg[edit]

[2] Btselem says Habali was hit in the head and another guy M.H. was hit in the leg. there seem to be some reports that I believe are not true that said Habali was hit twice. Do we have a confirmation here ? --DBig Xrayᗙ 10:46, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

DBigXray: There's no second guy, no where in the source says that there was another man being shot in the leg. M.H. stands for Mohammad Habali. Many other sources, already used, say Habali was shot twice. Please restore your changes. --Mhhossein ^talk 11:06, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Habali, who is seen in the footage carrying a long wooden stick – which he had picked up a few minutes before the shooting – was the last to leave. After he took several steps, he was shot in the head from behind, from a distance of about 80 meters. Another shot hit M.H., a resident of Tulkarm, in the leg. About a minute after the shooting, the three soldiers are seen rejoining the other soldiers in the area and leaving, without providing Habali or M.H. with any medical assistance... Habali was taken to hospital in Tulkarm. He arrived there unconscious, not breathing and without a pulse. Resuscitation attempts failed and he was pronounced dead. M.H. was driven to the hospital in another car, and X-rays showed the bullet had penetrated his left leg.

User:Mhhossein as you can see above, The quote from btselem clearly refers to them as 2 seperate individuals. did I miss something ? --DBig Xrayᗙ 11:13, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Good point, "M.H. was driven to the hospital in another car" means he was another guy. I'll see other sources, too. --Mhhossein ^talk 11:24, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Mass changes[edit]

DBigXray: Thanks for your edits but note that your edits are taking the article into the point the mentally challenged Habali was killed as a result of the violence he was involved in. You've also changed/removed the article sections. Can I ask you to discuss further changes before making them? --Mhhossein ^talk 11:23, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I think I have clarified certain attributions that were missing in the article. and added a new section "statement". I dont agree with your claim that my edits are doing what you claim are doing. If you have any specific objections to my edit you can start a thread on it and we can discuss on it and then take normal WP:DR if our disagreements continue. regards.--DBig Xrayᗙ 11:28, 3 March 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Notability[edit]

An AP (NY reprinted) - source with a few lines on this subject (the rest of the long article being on military investigations in general) does not change the sourcing situation here - there needs to be something more substantial for recreation. Icewhiz (talk) 15:12, 30 July 2019 (UTC)[reply]

POV[edit]

Significant problems with fact presentation. One example, the video I watched shows him holding a large club or stick in the air, i.e. not using it as a walking stick, and lagging a group of men moving quickly along a street but Israeli troops are not visible. Very hard to tell what went on from a video.E.M.Gregory (talk) 19:52, 7 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I am starting to suspect a COI. I suggest you let the AfD proceed without all of this tendentiousness - slapping templates on the article and bludgeoning the AfD is not getting it done. The right thing will likely happen, and if you do not like the result, do another AfD in a few weeks. Lightburst (talk) 20:02, 7 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Bring RS for your positions, not your own personal opinion on what the video shows. Because actual reliable sources say things that are very much different than your unsourced opinion. Thank you in advance for abiding by WP:V and WP:RS and not asking us to read your personal opinions. nableezy - 20:55, 7 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I agree the sources are cherry picked to promote one sided POV. For example in "Background" section the position of IDF is given in POV terms.Also most of the sources are WP:BIASED yes we can use such sources but we need to counterweight such soures with sources from other side as per WP:NPOV --Shrike (talk) 09:42, 8 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with what? the background is presenting just some statistics, nothing more. Which POV terms do you mean? Do you have sources contesting the figures provided? --Mhhossein ^talk 12:55, 8 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Uh do you have any sources that dispute anything in the article. Yall not liking that there is an article about Israelis killing a Palestinian is cute but not all that important here. Bring sources but kindly leave the unsourced nonsense elsewhere. nableezy - 15:27, 8 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Absent any sources provided to substantiate a NPOV claim here I will be removing the template. You dont get to tag an article because your feelings are hurt. nableezy - 16:15, 8 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

And done. If you would like to challenge something as POV bring a source showing it is in dispute. Until then please do not disruptively or tendentiously edit this article. Thank you. nableezy - 17:04, 8 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I mixed up the sources the correct one is this[[3] ] which clearly says "Israeli soldiers regularly carry out nightly raids across the West Bank, routinely detaining suspects wanted for low-level terror attacks, illegal weapons possession, and other security related offenses" --Shrike (talk) 13:50, 10 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Better now? nableezy - 18:45, 10 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Good. --Mhhossein ^talk 18:13, 11 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Well I was asking Shrike. Shrike, does my edit resolve your concern? Are there others? nableezy - 18:07, 13 August 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Requested move 20 December 2021[edit]

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Andrewa (talk) 15:45, 27 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Death of Mohammad Habali → Killing of Mohammad Habali – Mohammad Habali was killed by live ammunition fired by Israeli soldiers. Also, per this similar move request.--Mhhossein ^talk 06:51, 20 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Support: died by the hand of another; these cases are handled on Wiki as "Killing of...". --K.e.coffman (talk) 08:20, 27 December 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.