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Justified

Hello @Silver163: Although this[1] was not vandalism it was incorrect and without edit summary. By implication it does mischaracterise your edit[2] as vandalism. @AlsoWukai and @Lectonar: What is wrong with Silver163's correction? Indeed the source is clear that this is correct. Invasive Spices (talk) 11 January 2023 (UTC)

This came up during peer review for the article, actually, and was included subsequently in the article in the version which includes "...only one justified war...". This is only sourced to the interview, and as I understand it, after re-reading the interview, he does see World War II as somewhat justified. But just changing it to "no justified war", as Silver163 did, isn't correct either. Lectonar (talk) 09:26, 12 January 2023 (UTC)
I understand. I don't know how I misread while talking about misreading. Invasive Spices (talk) 12 January 2023 (UTC)

Why does it say "Children 3, including Aviva"?

The wording on the sidebar feels a bit confusing.

It says "Children: 3, including Aviva".

This got me super confused. What is Aviva? Is it like some kind of super intelligent AI that Chomsky built? That it may or may not be able to be considered "human"? So it is a "children" of Chomsky?

But yeah... seems like Aviva is a really normal human being...

Not sure if we should reword this part a bit? AkiraChisaka (talk) 04:32, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

Aviva is a bluelink, so here she is: Aviva Chomsky. Lectonar (talk) 11:00, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
Yeah, I did notice that.
Anyway, is this the common way it works for every page about a person? "Including Alice" means Alice is a notable person? AkiraChisaka (talk) 23:12, 13 January 2023 (UTC)
Best practice is that we do not include the names of children in biographies, unless the child is notable, as is the case here. Cullen328 (talk) 23:27, 13 January 2023 (UTC)

Reversion

Hello @Czar: This primary sources should only be used to fill in the necessary cracks where secondary sources don't go[3] is not correct. WP:PRIMARY sources are routinely used when they are the subject's description of the subject's positions. Additionally this is a crack – Chomsky's opinion that mass education is a form of propaganda is not covered by other text in the article.

I unlinked the link that I because MOS:SEAOFBLUE and because it is unnecessary next to a link which links to that. The person's article links to the group he belongs to. Invasive Spices (talk) 5 January 2023 (UTC)

In a biography about arguably the most cited living scholar, we have a world of secondary source analysis available to us. We should only be resorting to primary sources as a last resort, as the guideline recommends. There are plenty of academic sources you can cite on his education views if the points are noteworthy. And two links next to each other are not a "sea of blue". czar 07:02, 14 January 2023 (UTC)
This is not a scholarly matter in linguistics. This is a political opinion. In any case I see no reason why WP:V isn't sufficient.
And two links next to each other are not a "sea of blue". That is precisely what MOS:SEAOFBLUE is. When possible, avoid placing links next to each other so that they look like a single link (a "sea of blue"), Invasive Spices (talk)
This isn't some random person with a paucity of sources. He's the most cited person alive. With this much content, the bar for inclusion is much higher than having said something once. If it's important, there should be plenty of secondary sources on the subject.
Again, I'm more than familiar with the guidelines, and two links in a row, even per the linked example is not a "sea of blue". It is more confusing for a reader to not know what a "Black Panther" means than to potentially think there was a person named "Black Panther Fred Hampton". czar 02:57, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

Issue with Dates RE: Chomsky's Second Wife

For some reason, this page currently claims (in the fact box on the top-right) that BOTH of Chomsky's wives died in 2008. This is despite the fact that his second wife, Valeria A) is currently alive and B) didn't even marry him until 2014, so it'd be pretty weird if he married her six years after her own death. I can't seem to find any error in the actual page code when I go to edit it... but it's consistently there on the page. Anyone know where this is coming in from? What am I missing? Bishop2 15:40, 14 February 2023 (UTC)

@Bishop2, not sure where you're seeing that but it reads to me as "Carol Doris Schatz (m. 1949; died 2008) Valeria Wasserman (m. 2014)" which is our standard notation. Wasserman is not marked as dead there. By the way you can sign your post with four tildes (~~~~). czar 04:44, 15 February 2023 (UTC)

Student George Lakoff

George Lakoff's PhD thesis was advised not by Chomsky but by Fred Householder. As such, I'm removing Lakoff from the list of Doctoral students. Thatsme314 (talk) 15:54, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

Lakoff attended MIT as an undergrad but otherwise agreed that he doesn't belong listed there. "... as an Indiana student [I] was not really even considered a member of the MIT Linguistics community. My only claim to legitimacy was the fact that I had taken some linguistics courses there as an undergraduate."
Huck, Geoffrey J.; Goldsmith, John A., eds. (1995). "George Lakoff in conversation with John Goldsmith". Ideology and Linguistic Theory: Noam Chomsky and the Deep Structure Debates. Routledge. p. 108. ISBN 978-0-415-11735-7.
czar 21:43, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

"Criticism" section

[4] Wikipedia avoids creating general "criticism" sections, especially for BLPs, as they become catch-alls for random opinions without any semblance of due weight. If there is something that needs to be said about critical response to his positions, it should be covered in context of the related section of the existing article (i.e., the sections on his political stances or his impact). czar 17:29, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Agreed per WP:CONTROVERSYSECTION. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:32, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Chomsky's Denial of the Bosnian Genocide

May I ask Wikipedia doesn't at least mention his denial of the Bosnian genocide? It mentions his other controversial options and beliefs of rumored anti Semitic talk and protests against continuing US Imperialism but doesn't mention his blatant changing of context and utter denial of the Bosnian Genocide.


Link to Video of loads of evidence by Kraut- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCcX_xTLDIY&ab_channel=Kraut TreySutt22 (talk) 19:27, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

Please provide reliable secondary sources about this. nableezy - 19:30, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
most of my sources are mentioned/ in the comments of the video i posted the link to. Even though its not my work, Kraut has put the research into one comprehensive and connecting video TreySutt22 (talk) 19:32, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
Kraut the Parrot doesnt really seem like a source we need to consider here, if you have third party secondary reliable sources please provide them. Academic sources would be best. Thanks, nableezy - 20:02, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
Im begining a school/ college project related to thise subject. May I ask why Kraut the parrot isnt considered a good source? Many of his videos point out both sides in an argument and usually is political in nature but tries to remain unbiased TreySutt22 (talk) 19:41, 2 February 2023 (UTC)
@TreySutt22, Wikipedia:Reliable sources explains in full what Wikipedia considers reliable and why. In general, reliability is a function of the publisher's rigor: whether they fact-check, have a reputation for accuracy, employ experts with a pedigree, etc. Some of the links in Kraut's video fit this description but then the question becomes what to include and why. For why this article does not cover Chomsky's views on specific political regimes, see the FAQ at the top of this talk page. czar 03:06, 4 February 2023 (UTC)
https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/2017-11-24/ty-article-opinion/the-wests-leftist-male-intellectuals-who-traffic-in-genocide-denial/0000017f-f346-d8a1-a5ff-f3cec4320000 109.183.219.157 (talk) 00:12, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
Apparently Wikipedia does acknowledge it, just not (currently) in this article. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnian_genocide_denial#:~:text=Noam%20Chomsky%20drew%20criticism%20for,existence%20of%20Bosnian%20concentration%20camps. I hope that might provide you with some help in sourcing the matter to Wikipedia's standards. Be under no illusion that this article is under heavy watch by Chomsky-stanning gatekeepers who'll use any procedural trick at their disposal to stifle criticism that doesn't tick every box they can dream up. Such is Wikipedia. Lordrosemount (talk) 01:02, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

Chomsky drew criticism for not calling the Bosnian War's Srebrenica massacre a "genocide". While he did not deny the fact of the massacre, which he called "a horror story and major crime", he felt the massacre did not meet the definition of genocide.
— Noam Chomsky#In politics

It's been in this article for quite some time and discussed multiple times, but nice try. czar 18:25, 12 February 2023 (UTC)
@Czar: Just commenting here because one of the issues I raised in the peer review was that I felt this paragraph was overly defensive of Chomsky. It reads as giving undue weight to Chomsky's own defence of his views, without elaborating on any of the criticisms. That it lends greater relevance to Chomsky's own responses, essentially implying a conclusion that he is correct by ending the discussion with his defence, makes me question its neutral point of view to be honest. (Also, I'd like to point out that this is supposed to be in a "Reception and influence" section, yet more weight is given to his own views than how those views were received)
The above discussion mentioned a youtube video criticising Chomsky on this, but no reliable scholarly sources, so I thought I'd provide one: "Chomsky and Genocide" by Adam Jones for the Genocide Studies and Prevention journal. Specifically in relation to Chomsky's views on the definition of genocide in regards to the Srebrenica massacre, Jones had this to say:

A number of insights can be gleaned from this exchange. The first is Chomsky’s obvious hesitation and skepticism with regard to the “genocide” label – not least because of its vagueness and imprecision (“It has whatever meaning you decide to give it”), as well as its politicization, a subject I explore in detail later. [...]
Notable as well in the passage is Chomsky’s distinction between “genocide” and “mass killing,” with East Timor and Bosnia cited as examples of the latter. What distinguishes them, apparently, is the quantitative scale and totalizing exterminatory character of the genocidal enterprise. Chomsky’s framing is thus in line with the “hardest,” meaning most restrictive and exclusionary, of genocide definitions in the existing scholarship. [...]
In addition to meshing with more limited and exclusionary framings of “genocide,” Chomsky’s totalizing emphasis is at odds with the definition advanced in the 1948 United Nations Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of the Crime of Genocide, with its well-known but imprecise phrasing of “destruction ... in whole or in part.”

This is only one part of the journal article, which is a rather broad look at Chomsky's history of commentary on genocides and mass killings, but one I think demonstrates the problem of the existing section in the Wiki article.
However one wishes to approach this, whether in this or the Political positions of Noam Chomsky article, I do think it needs to be dealt with. -- Grnrchst (talk) 12:36, 2 April 2023 (UTC)
That source was mentioned last year and it's a good one. I think we should cover his views more broadly in the section on his political beliefs and then can potentially cover more of the reaction in the Legacy section but ultimately this article is meant to be an overview, so we're not trying to go into depth into any one "side" of the many rifts mentioned throughout the article. czar 05:46, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

Association with Jeffrey Epstein

@DFlhb Why do you think its not WP:DUE? [5] Softlemonades (talk) 17:20, 21 May 2023 (UTC)

Just dropping in to say that I don't have an opinion on inclusion vs. exclusion of this yet, but WP:ONUS is to seek inclusion, not exclusion, especially for such a guilt-by-association situation like this on a WP:BLP. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:34, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
See my edit summary.
It's not relevant to his biography. To illustrate, Bill Gates's association with Epstein received enduring and therefore noteworthy coverage (it led to Gates' divorce), which makes it due in Gates's BLP. Chomsky's ties, as described by WSJ, are minor at best. There are tons of things to say about Chomsky which we don't have the space to include, and verifiability does not guarantee inclusion (WP:VNOT). Yet this section fails to establish its own relevance: "so what?" if Epstein flew him to meet with Ehud Barak on a plane, or helped him with a money transfer? Is it significant? Were they deeply connected? Was he accused of having sex with one of Epstein's victims? No.
The Guardian covered this in one WP:RSBREAKING report (link). In a later report, they only mention Chomsky's response, not his alleged ties. They don't present this as a noteworthy story about Chomsky, but as an attempt by Epstein to "rebuild his reputation", with Chomsky and others merely a side note. They find it more noteworthy to dedicate three paragraphs to an interviewee stating that Chomsky and others were being "used" by Epstein, and that the WSJ's report was an attempt to discredit left-wing and intelligence community figures. This is WP:NOTNEWS cruft. DFlhb (talk) 19:14, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
Thanks for the longer explanation. But telling me to see the edit summary Im asking you to explain and that I linked to doesnt help. But the longer explanation did. Thanks! Softlemonades (talk) 20:06, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
Yes, I linked that for the benefit of any uninvolved editors coming across this, who might want a TLDR :) Hadn't noticed you'd linked it. DFlhb (talk) 20:08, 21 May 2023 (UTC)
Spectator here. Given that there has been coverage of his connection ( [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] ) on The Guardian and other outlets besides the WSJ, it is likely worth mentioning, though IMO perhaps not worthy of an entire section. GuardianH (talk) 05:20, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
Already linked to the Guardian above. So far, every source is primary except the Guardian's second article, which treats the allegations as irrelevant. Even one sentence would be disproportionate when considering all reliable sources about Chomsky. This overweighing of recent news is a chronic problem on Wikipedia, so please observe WP:ONUS; the whole section was a bold addition, not just Softlemonades' expansion. DFlhb (talk) 05:49, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
I now agree with DFlhb. That Epstein and Chomsky had a connection does not at this time, based on what I see, appear all that important to Chomsky's biography. Tie Chomsky to the child prostitution ring and then that's a different conversation. – Muboshgu (talk) 16:10, 27 May 2023 (UTC)
A financial connection to Epstein is massive and WP:NOTABLE by itself. The policy WP:BLP doesn't mean to remove everything in a biographical article that might make the person look bad, it means that in a biographical article everything "challenged or likely to be challenged must be supported by an inline citation to a reliable, published source". This criteria for BLP inclusion was fulfilled already, with inline citations to WP:RS. The variety of reliable sources linked above, several of which were already cited, also fulfill the general notability guideline with significant coverage. Wikipedia is not censored, there is no encyclopedic issue with the previous section. -- Rauisuchian (talk) 18:56, 31 May 2023 (UTC)
Thus far, the WP:ONUS argument seems to be completely tangential and unrelated, as WP:BLP makes no mention of WP:ONUS. There's no doubt that the information is verifiable. -- Rauisuchian (talk) 16:25, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
As it says there at WP:V, "Verifiability does not guarantee inclusion". Epstein was a financier, in addition to being a sex offender, and so people having a financial connection to Epstein is more WP:ROTM than anything, unless there's a sex offense connection. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:06, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
If the financial connections are widely reported by reliable sources, making them WP:NOTABLE, then they are not "run of the mill". Also, would any random person at the time have wanted to, or been able to, "move money through Jeffrey Epstein"? I can't think of many things more bizarre or evidently notable than that. Does it mean anything beyond what it is, that's undetermined so far. Is the RS reporting enough to state this bizarre and mind blowing fact with attribution, yes. -- Rauisuchian (talk) 21:12, 6 June 2023 (UTC)
WP:NOTABLE discusses whether a given topic warrants its own article, not whether an event should be included in an existing article. And we don't make articles for everything that gets "significant coverage". WP:ONUS is not "tangential", it says not all verifiable information must be included and there needs to be consensus to include somethings contentious in a WP:BLP. BLP does say that WP:V must be strictly adhered to: that includes ONUS. Why should we include Chomsky hiring Epstein to resolve his widow's estate? – Muboshgu (talk) 03:31, 7 June 2023 (UTC)
You're reinstating something against WP:ONUS when I raised good-faith BLP objections: Ask yourself whether the source is reliable; whether the material is being presented as true; and whether, even if true, it is relevant to a disinterested article about the subject (emphasis mine). It is a misunderstanding of policy to say that something should be included because it's cited.
We don't have a variety of sources. We have the WSJ, whose claims are quoted with attribution and without analysis, hindsight or corroboration by other breaking news sources. The Guardian is the only one to provide analysis, and disputes it.
4channers on both /pol/ and Twitter have mentioned this Wikipedia article and criticized it for not mentioning Epstein.[6][7] That makes BLP all the more relevant, because Wikipedia shouldn't help 4chan smear its political opponents, though I'm not presuming you're in on that. DFlhb (talk) 08:38, 11 June 2023 (UTC)
I've reverted again since these concerns are still not addressed, and this is a BLP. No objection against reinserting after consensus is gained. DFlhb (talk) 12:38, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
This looks like a guilt-by-association edit, extending into a section indeed. Epstein ran a sex-racket and was a major financier, which means that a lot of the wealthiest people around would have availed themselves of his financial acumen, most I assume at the time completely unaware of the former side, which would be what makes any connection notable. I concur with DFlhb's sensible analysis. This is not noteworthy in the context of Chomsky's life (unless one thinks that people critical of the 'corruptions of empire' should be penniless, and not look after their assets). We all have to, esp. when estates have to be settled.Nishidani (talk) 15:59, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
I agree. I still think it is DUE but there are poicy issues and consensus says no. No one should be adding it back now Softlemonades (talk) 16:11, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
Sensible. I just read all the sources, and realized that if we make the connection important for a wiki bio, we are going to establish a precedent for dozens of biographies from Martin Nowak, Henry Rosovsky, Lawrence Summers to Steven Pinker and on and on. Epstein knews everyone.Nishidani (talk) 16:17, 21 June 2023 (UTC)
If we did that, it would makes more sense to have a list article like People associated with Jeffrey Epstein. But a discussion about that belongs on the Epstein talk page and not here and I do not know him or his case or all those people well enough so I give that problem to other people who are smarter about it. but I did know Chomsky from before when I saw that news Softlemonades (talk) 16:25, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

Add {{American socialism}}?

Chomsky's name appears in the "people" section of that template. I suggest adding the WP:SIDEBAR template {{American socialism|expanded=people}}, just as it appears on Howard Zinn or {{American socialism navbox}} (although this article already has a navbox at the bottom). However, this article is a good article and Zinn's is not, so I'm not so bold as to do add the template without any discussion, especially since adding that sidebar might make the right side of the article too cluttered. Illuminati42 (talk) 03:00, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

I don't see that template adding much value to the pages it's on. Chomsky is not known as an indelible figure in American Socialism. czar 15:13, 14 July 2023 (UTC)

Chomsky on Russia

Gilbert Achcar, a major writer on the Arab Spring and critic of Russian military intervention in Syria AND Ukraine points out that although there are issues with Chomsky's framing of the Ukraine conflict, that in the Youtube interview itself the article tries to base itself on, Chomsky does support the US government's efforts to send weapons to the Ukranian Government to defend itself against Russia, and he never says that Russian intervention is "humane" (he in fact compares it to Hitler's/Stalin's invasion of Poland) just that the US War in Iraq has been worse (which I think is debatable depending on the factored considerations, but that's a different matter). The New Statesmen article referenced is not a reliable reference to Chomsky's views on the Ukraine/Russia conflict.

https://gilbert-achcar.net/on-chomskys-interview-on-ukraine

https://chomsky.info/20220301/

https://newpol.org/interview-on-the-war-in-ukraine-with-noam-chomsky/ Saphsin (talk) 00:28, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

The article is currently citing the Intercept not the New Statesman and the description in our article with regard to Chomsky's view on the Russian nvasion seems correct. So I'm not sure what you are getting at here. For more detailed description of Chomsky's political views (and their critics) there is a separate article (see the section above this one).--Kmhkmh (talk) 11:03, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
Your assertion is simply false, it is the New Statesman article being cited. By the way, I have my own critique of Chomsky's views, this is simply about his views being wrongly described (see the articles I cited above)
When discussing the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, Chomsky described Russia's aggression as "moderate" and "humane" in comparison to the American aggression in the Iraq War, and expressed his belief that the USA was helping Ukraine only to weaken Russia.[193]
[193]Vock, Ido (April 29, 2023). "Noam Chomsky: Russia is fighting more humanely than the US did in Iraq". The New Statesman. Retrieved July 23, 2023. 74.102.40.210 (talk) 18:41, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
I didn't log in, the above subsequent comment was mine. The above commenter "Kmhkmh" could not even bother to check whether it was the New Statesmen rather than the Intercept in the main Chomsky Wikipedia Article. In fact, he did not even check the Political positions of Noam Chomsky Article, which also cites it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_positions_of_Noam_Chomsky
In an interview with New Statesman published in April 2023, Chomsky is quoted in saying that Russia was fighting more "humanely" in Ukraine than the U.S. did in Iraq, and that Russia was "acting with restraint and moderation" as Ukraine had not suffered "large-scale destruction of infrastructure" compared to Iraq.[138]
Vock, Ido (April 29, 2023). "Noam Chomsky: Russia is fighting more humanely than the US did in Iraq". New Statesman. Retrieved May 1, 2023.
And it seems like this level of sloppiness seems to require me to cite from the links I provided:
https://gilbert-achcar.net/on-chomskys-interview-on-ukraine
"On 29 April, the New Stateman published an interview that its Europe correspondent Ido Vock did with Noam Chomsky. Reading the interview – starting from its title itself – I got the impression that the interviewer might have wanted to seize an opportunity to achieve a little sensation by setting a trap for Chomsky. In what follows, I will comment on the most significant excerpts from the interview – reproduced below in italics – to show how the sensation was performed. My comment is inserted under each quote in non-italicized text. Fortunately, a video recording of the actual interview has been posted online. It is much better than the use the NS made of it."
"Noam Chomsky: Russia is fighting more humanely than the US did in Iraq
The text of the interview clearly shows that this is not an assertion formulated by Chomsky himself but an opinion that the interviewer has literally put in his mouth. He addressed the question to Chomsky in that malicious way, as the video shows, and got him to agree, which Chomsky did by stressing that it is obvious. Chomsky’s intention was clearly to emphasize the viciousness of the US bombing of Iraq rather than to minimize the brutality of the Russian bombing of Ukraine. That the sentence got then turned into a title where it is presented as if it were a quote from Chomsky is plainly dishonest. On top of that, it does a disservice to the Ukrainian cause and renders a service to Russian Putinist propaganda for the sake of attracting attention by way of sensationalism."
"Three points here:
1. Chomsky actually makes clear his concern that the US has been blocking the path to a negotiated settlement while Ukraine is being “battered, devastated”. He was certainly not advocating the abandonment of the Ukrainians to a cruel fate.
2. The assertion by the interviewer that “negotiations with Russia would mean de facto abandoning millions of Ukrainians to the whims of an aggressor” is a non sequitur: negotiations do not in any way imply that the Ukrainians would abandon the fight or that NATO should cease supporting the fighters. The Vietnamese held negotiations with the US during five years while continuing to fight with Soviet and Chinese support. Chomsky’s statement in the actual videoed interview that it is “reasonable to provide weapons to Ukraine to defend itself against aggression” has not been reproduced in the written piece – one is entitled to infer that this was because it provided a corrective to the impression that the interviewer wanted to convey about Chomsky."
3. It is hardly disputable that for the US, Ukraine’s war against the Russian invasion is a “bargain”. In other words, Russia’s invasion of Ukraine has been a boon for the US: its effect on Russia’s actual military capability and “credibility” as well as on Europe’s allegiance to Washington is tremendous.
https://chomsky.info/20220301/
Noam Chomsky: Before turning to the question, we should settle a few facts that are uncontestable. The most crucial one is that the Russian invasion of Ukraine is a major war crime, ranking alongside the U.S. invasion of Iraq and the Hitler-Stalin invasion of Poland in September 1939, to take only two salient examples. It always makes sense to seek explanations, but there is no justification, no extenuation.
https://newpol.org/interview-on-the-war-in-ukraine-with-noam-chomsky/
SRS: There are some (like Code Pink or DSA’s International Committee) who argue that the peace movement should oppose weapons deliveries to Ukraine by the U.S. government because the provision of weapons undermines diplomacy. Others say that Ukraine needs to be able to defend itself in order to negotiate an acceptable end to the war (such as the terms that Ukrainian president Zelensky put forward at the war’s beginning) and maintain that denying Ukraine weapons amounts to forcing it to capitulate. What is your view?
NC: Personally, I don’t accept either of the positions you formulate. Ukraine should receive weapons for self-defense — though this seems to me to have little to do with negotiating an acceptable end to the war, including Zelensky’s proposals. I should add on the side that I’m quite surprised at how few seem to agree with providing military aid: a mere 40% in the US-Europe. Saphsin (talk) 18:58, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
Ok here is the reason for the confusion, apparently the Ukraine war/Russia is described twice in different sections and in rather different manners:
  • "In March 2022, Chomsky called the Russian invasion of Ukraine a "major war crime", ranking alongside the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq and the German–Soviet invasion of Poland in 1939.[144]" (source: The Intercept, section Noam_Chomsky#Retirement)
  • "When discussing the 2022 Russian invasion of Ukraine, Chomsky described Russia's aggression as "moderate" and "humane" in comparison to the American aggression in the Iraq War, and expressed his belief that the USA was helping Ukraine only to weaken Russia.[193]" (source: The New Statesmanm, section Noam_Chomsky#United_States_foreign_policy)
I'd agree that the second description is problematic. Unfortunately due the fact that Chomsky is rather famous and polarising figure, you can expect some/many description of his positions in the media to be biased and not particularly accurate. And in many different interviews on the Ukrainer war Chomsky may have provided answers with a different focus/emphasis, which might tempt people to cherry-pick rather than providing an overall apropriate summary. As far as this article here is concerned, I'm fine with removing the New Statesman and relying on the Intercept only for his position on the Ukraine war. But in any case a more nuanced and detailed description on his views on the Ukraine war is undue in his biography and belongs instead in Political positions of Noam Chomsky.--Kmhkmh (talk) 22:26, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
Agreed. I don't see why Chomsky's opinion on the Ukraine war is germane to his general biography. Cover it in the article on his political positions. czar 09:50, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
Ok, sorry I didn't realize the Intercept article was also quoted because it was not in the political views section of the Main Chomsky article. But yeah I agree with everything you wrote, especially "And in many different interviews on the Ukrainer war Chomsky may have provided answers with a different focus/emphasis" That's also why I tend to think multiple articles should be cited for representation of positions, I think the NewPol interview I cited is also good. The New Statesman article is not good though. Saphsin (talk) 18:32, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Chomsky's appeasement towards Russia in the Russian invasion of Ukraine

I've read some comments Chomsky made about the war in Ukraine, and I find them interesting in the fact that it seems Chomsky is more interesting in criticizing the US and NATO over the war in Ukraine rather than Russia herself. He also claims that one of the main reasons for the war is NATO expansion. I think we should have a section where we have more of his opinions regarding this war. There are several articles with his opinions on the matter online, so sources is not an issue. 2A01:799:1B9B:C300:89:126A:8AD4:1463 (talk) 22:17, 27 July 2023 (UTC)

Unless sources contend it to be a critical aspect of his life, per the FAQ above, the best place to cover it is Political positions of Noam Chomsky. czar 08:34, 28 July 2023 (UTC)
Chomsky has history of these kinds of takes. Consider, for instance, his denial of the Bosnian genocide: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCcX_xTLDIY
As I understand it, he was rather reticent to walk back his denial of the Cambodian genocide, as well. There's quite a lot missing from the article that many people would consider important and interesting. 184.147.246.65 (talk) 03:29, 3 September 2023 (UTC)

Jesus..Shakespeare...Noam Chomsky?

What a ridiculous puff piece. Especially at the end where McGilvray is quoted to deflect from what is no doubt valid criticism by academics, claiming he's the victim of "distortion" and "straw men".

Chomsky has frequently made remarks about US foreign policy and the global economic system that are categorically false. Much of what he writes about politics is conspiracy theory asserted with no evidence, which is why academics in these fields tend not to take him seriously. But I see this article was written by his Youtube fan club. Jonathan f1 (talk) 01:53, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

Those are some exceptional claims to present without any reliable, secondary source backing. Please do share any such sources that the article is missing. czar 03:55, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Hamas

I am shocked that Chomsky's long-term support of Hamas (and accompanying virulent antisemitism) is not even mentioned in the article. I don't know if it's been white-washed in recent days, but this is one of his most (if not the most) outspoken politcal views. He testified to the UN on the subject, and his views are even referenced on the wiki Hamas page. The genocidal repercussions (including infanticide by beheading) of his world views certainly now warrant at least a sentence? Gnyc18 (talk) 00:03, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

See the FAQ above. czar 03:52, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
Which in particular? That the article doesn’t cover all of his views? This is his most noteworthy cause. You can’t possibly be asking me for a reference. He’s been spewing the same hate for decades. Gnyc18 (talk) 04:02, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
This article has been stable for a long time. Chomsky is not mentioned on the Hamas page. If Hamas is his "most noteworthy" cause, then surely you can bring a reliable, secondary source germane to his general biography that says so explicitly. On Wikipedia, we discuss sources and there's nothing to do here until there are sources to discuss. czar 12:45, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
This conversation is becoming a bit surreal. A statement that Mr. Chomsky has been a long-term supporter of Hamas is not in the least bit controversial. In fact, he seems to have always been a proud supporter and would take no issue with this addition. However, I will assume that you are just not knowledgeable in the subject (as opposed to advocating or working for Chomsky (or even worse)) and will play your game. Here are three such reliable, secondary sources, including a video of Chomsky himself!
“A Hideous Atrocity”: Noam Chomsky on Israel’s Assault on Gaza and U.S. Support for the Occupation
Noam Chomsky with Amy Goodman and Juan González Democracy Now!, Part I, Part II, August 7, 2014
Chomsky in his own words in 2015: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssIBGppyTlY
Gaza in Crisis: Reflections on Israel's War Against the Palestinians by Noam Chomsky
Finally, as far as the reference on the Hamas page, I suggest you learn to use the search function and see Footnote 261.
I can understand why shills for Chomsky wouldn't even want the mere statement entered into the encomium, but it should be added and let the reader decide. Gnyc18 (talk) 14:17, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
The very fact that other editors disagree with your assessment of Chomsky's views is sufficient to establish that this is controversial, and the insistence that you provide reliable sources is a basic requirement of Wikipedia editing. And none of the sources you cite above establishes (nor even, as far as I can see, claims) that Chomsky is "a long-term supporter of Hamas". I challenge you to find even one sentence in all of these sources that states this. In fact, while recognising that Hamas is an elected government and a representative of the Palestinian people, with which Israel is obliged to negotiate, Chomsky is actually a critic of Hamas, as some of these texts show. The claim that you want to add will not be included without much stronger evidence than you have so far offered. RolandR (talk) 16:37, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
Your answer is completely intellectually dishonest.
Wikipedia’s credibility has taken a terrible hit by your collective decision not to write a simple sentence indicating his historic support through the decades (hence “long-term”). In the several occasions of violence between Hamas and Israel he has consistently appeared in the record to fully condemn Israel without reservation. I would venture to say he is even proud of this position.
I suggest you also watch his address to the UN:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NoC7sRNkrlI
That said, I am not surprised that he/you would be humiliated by his position. I guess it was all well and good until his guys started chopping off babies’ heads.
Gary Curwin
NYC Gnyc18 (talk) 18:32, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
His opinions of Israel regarding Palestine, Gaza has been documented in this and other articles. In fact, "Gaza in Crisis" (referenced in your earlier reply) has its own article already.
Meanwhile, this alleged support of Hamas has not been sourced satisfactorily. The youtube video you've posted demonstrates no such support, merely descriptions of a situation, and some criticisms. It should be noted that criticism of one side of a conflict is not the same as "long-term support" for a perceived representative of the other side. Reil (talk) 19:33, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
Pure double talk. Whatever. I pity your lack of moral objectivity. 138.20.184.11 (talk) 20:08, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
Your position is akin to asserting that O.J. Simpson’s defense team didn’t “support” him. They just defended him and tried to contradict every accusation against him. 138.20.184.11 (talk) 20:12, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
I could easily find that O.J. Simpson's defense team defended him. It would be a much higher barrier to say they personally supported him outside of their professional duty.
If you had any objectivity yourself, you (or @Gnyc18, in case you are not the same person) would be able to produce a source of displaying actual support, like "This group is legitimate" or "I fund this group", not "I dislike some of the actions of this other group in opposition to them." Reil (talk) 20:35, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
I’ve clearly hit a defensive nerve for those who choose to defend the amoral human being. 138.20.184.1 (talk) 21:09, 11 October 2023 (UTC)
And it is the same person.
I chose to put my name on one of my posts as I have nothing to hide; as opposed to “editors” who have locked his entry 138.20.184.1 (talk) 21:11, 11 October 2023 (UTC)

Khmer Rouge/Bosnian Genocide

Why is there zero mention of his genocide denial on this page? 2600:8805:D21A:F200:7C5B:3735:3600:1923 (talk) 04:37, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

There is a separate article regarding the subject's political positions. It's got a pretty extensive section about Cambodia.
Similarly, the Bosnian genocide denial page already has a full paragraph dedicated to the subject's position here. There's an argument to be made for adding an excerpt from that page to the aforementioned political positions page before anyone bothers filtering it up to the more biographical page. See FAQ at the top. Reil (talk) 05:44, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

zero mention

Both genocides (Cambodian and Bosnian) are already mentioned in the article, in two different sections. czar 14:43, 13 October 2023 (UTC)

Israel

@SPECIFICO:

WP:DUE: "Neutral Point of View says that the article should fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by a verifiable source, and should do so in proportion to the prominence of each."

Seems there is a misunderstanding on what WP:DUE says; it does not say that we have to weigh the prominency of a viewpoint to determine on its inclusion, but rather that differing viewpoints have to be reported on in proportion to their prominency. This is crystal clear from the quote cited above.

Chomsky has called Israel an apartheid state worse than the one that existed in South Africa, that is his viewpoint; did he give other viewpoints that made you determine citing this was "undue"? No he didn't, and the same goes for his other comments which you removed indiscriminately. I very carefully wrote the prose, ensuring that each of his comments were added in quotes, so there is no valid POV claim. WP:NOTNEWS in not valid since Middle East Monitor and DemocracyNow are not primary sources. COATRACK is an essay.

Please provide valid Wikipedia-based counterarguments or restore the sourced content you have removed. Makeandtoss (talk) 18:57, 15 December 2023 (UTC)

I'm sorry you think I do not understand NPOV, but I have tens of thousands of edits in the most contentious articles on this site and I am confident in my understanding of NPOV and the finer points of how it can be misrepresented and mistreated. Since you don't accept my view, you are welcome to start an RfC and see whether you can convince the community. You would need to convince everyone that - in Chomsky's nearly century-long life story - his views on Israel and Zionism suddenly became much much more important and central to his biography, justifying your additions. I think it's a long shot, but have a try, if you wish. SPECIFICO talk 19:42, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
@SPECIFICO: Then as an experienced editor, with good faith, supposedly, you are certainly aware of WP:RFCBEFORE: “RfCs are time consuming, and editor time is valuable. Editors should try to resolve their issues before starting an RfC.” I have already brunt the WP:BURDEN and demonstrated verifiability by providing reliable secondary citations. Your refusal to even discuss the issue and elaborate on your opposition to the addition of this reliably sourced material without guideline-backed reasons is quite telling. Makeandtoss (talk) 20:10, 15 December 2023 (UTC)
First off: if you wish to disparage or threaten me, that should be done on my user talk page, not here. Second, please slow down and consider the reason I gave to explain why this content should not be added. Third, please review WP:ONUS. SPECIFICO talk▪︎
@SPECIFICO: WP:ONUS links to WP:CONSENSUS which says: “Decision making and reaching consensus involve an effort to incorporate all editors' legitimate concerns, while respecting Wikipedia's policies and guidelines.” You have not made any legitimate concerns other than throwing random non-fitting Wikipedia guidelines and making false accusations of alleged disparaging and threats. It’s your responsibility to articulate your concerns, and if there’s an inability/unwillingness to do so, then that’s frankly speaking not my problem. Makeandtoss (talk) 06:50, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
As I said above, the ONUS is on you to demonstrate consensus for the content you believe should be added. That may take more time than you would prefer, but that is the standard we follow. I have given my resoning against this addition several times already, above and in my edit summary. SPECIFICO talk 17:53, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
@SPECIFICO: There is no such thing as "demonstrating consensus"; consensus will be reached when you provide counterarguments based on WP guideline. The burden is on you to engage and express your positions. Makeandtoss (talk) 20:57, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
This is a fundamental misunderstanding of ONUS, CONSENSUS, and seeveral behavioral guidelines. I have repeatedly stated my position and the reasons for it. Perhaps ask an Admin for help if you doubt my statement that you are misunderstanding policy. The reason I suggested an RfC is because that would be one way to demonstrate consensus. I recall you've initiated at least one RfC in the past (ignoring RFCBEFORE, as you know) so I thought you would find that suggestion constructive here. SPECIFICO talk 21:43, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
@SPECIFICO: Please stop throwing false accusations that I have started RfCs having ignored RFCBEFORE. Consensus is a group effort, it is not a individual "demonstration". A group effort that starts by you explaining clearly what you object to, because you indiscriminately reverted all of my edits. Makeandtoss (talk) 22:06, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
I was thinking of the one that I removed and got you blocked. I don't know and didn't say about any other time, but that's off topic. I don't look at who made an edit when I read it. I do not indiscriminately revert anything due to which editor contributed it. If you wish to make further personal remarks please use my user talk page. SPECIFICO talk 22:16, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
@SPECIFICO: What an absurd statement, no one gets blocked for putting an RFC. Please abide by your own statements, and make further personal remarks on my talk page. Now you are welcome begin to elaborate your opposition in a clear manner to each and every edit, since you reverted everything. Makeandtoss (talk) 22:24, 16 December 2023 (UTC)
Chomsky's views on Israel have been a matter of public record for decades, in 1975 Edward Said wrote Chomsky and the Question of Palestine. He wrote the introduction to The New Intifada: Resisting Israel’s Apartheid, and along with Ilan Pappé wrote On Palestine and Gaza in Crisis: Reflections on the US-Israeli War Against the Palestinians. The current material drastically undersells his views on this topic and the weight it is given in coverage of him. nableezy - 04:37, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
@Nableezy: Agreed although undersells is an understatement given that the current content just claims he was "raising awareness", with no mention of his actual views: anti-Zionism; his apartheid analogy; and other comments. Makeandtoss (talk) 10:07, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

I reviewed all the material that was reverted that had been added about Chomsky's views on Israel, which I would broadly characterize as quite nuanced and varied, but include, strong opposition to the Israeli settlers in the West Bank, he's a non-Zionist or anti-Zionist left-socialist, almost communist, anarchist Jewish intellectual. He grew up a Left or Labor Zionist. He later turned to antiwar activism. He definitely did say all the stuff about Israeli apartheid, the reference to the famous Leibowitz Judeo-Nazi quote, which he didn't full-throatedly agree with, he acknowledged it was quite a loaded and controversial statement, so much as say he thought there were tendencies that were starting to develop in Israeli society. I do agree that that particular interview isn't necessary, it is cherrypicking somewhat. Also, I thought we were gathering evidence to get i24 deprecated. You can make the point in a better way. The book sources are probably better, but I couldn't check them for some reason. I'm sure, though, there's a wealth of material describing Chomsky's view in fullness on Israel. For example, he definitely said that he believed that the right to exist is a fiction and we already mention his 1983 book which is entirely about this topic. He's also talked in depth about people such as Nahum Goldmann who didn't want to exploit the Holocaust to oppress others. He's talked about how the two-state solution is the only solution because a one-state solution would be a pie in the sky solution. He's called Gaza a prison. Etc. So, there's plenty that can be said about Chomsky's criticism of Israel and anti-Zionistic views as a socialist Labor Jewish anti-Zionist, his father was a Hebrew scholar, he's a dying breed but such people were once common in the world. I'm sure you can cite the higher quality material such as the books, and the JSTOR and other journal articles, and leave out some of the lighter weight TV interviews where he's just rambling on about things and you're kind of cherrypicking specific quotes that aren't too important in the scheme of understanding his views. Andre🚐 10:34, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

@Andrevan: Well for a start, refreshing specific commentary on what is actually potentially problematic, and not just the throwing of random WP guidelines and ad hominem. While I agree with most of your points, I disagree on the cherry picking part: cherry picking refers to when you are taking something out of context, while avoiding contradictory evidence. Cherry picking therefore doesn't apply to these statements, this is merely picking, as there are no contradictory statements in which he says for example that Gaza is a utopia, or in which he says Israel is genuinely a liberal democracy. Chomsky said that the Judeo-Nazi claim was a loaded statement in Israel, he did agree with it, and even said that these Judeo-Nazi tendencies in Israel are growing stronger. I24news is definitely unreliable, however, we could simply offset that problem by attribution; furthermore, there are plenty of other instances where he mentioned this, including in his 1999 Fateful Triangle book, and is widely referenced in the media. Makeandtoss (talk) 11:53, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
We cannot negate our sourcing and NPOV policies by attribution. That is not how we use attribution. As nableezy concefes, Chomsky's view has been widely know for 50 years. This content did not suddenly become DUE for this mature and widely followed article. SPECIFICO talk 17:23, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
It was always due, the idea that things were not covered so they should not be covered has zero grounding in policy or logic. Wikipedia is after all famously not finished. This material is due and I’ll be adding material with the sources I have found and will keep looking at. Chomskys views on Israel are not presented here, and they form a significant amount of his public advocacy. And of coverage of him. You can try to stand in the way if you want but nobody has to seek your permission for anything here, and if you want to edit war things out then that can be dealt with in the usual manner. nableezy - 17:28, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
I hope that what you mean to say is that you will be presenting your sources and policy-based rationales for whatever edit you propose and pursuing consensus for your suggestion on talk. SPECIFICO talk 19:38, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
No, I meant I will be editing the article. Nobody needs your permission to edit here. nableezy - 19:46, 17 December 2023 (UTC)
let's get back on track here. You're right, he didn't say Gaza was a utopia. He's anti all states, and if you read a fuller context you understand he's operating on a higher level of criticism, so it's a little out of context to just grab all the slightly anti-Israel comments he's made that have the effect to imply he wants to dismantle settler colonialism in Israel. He doesn't want to dismantle anything, he's an advocate for a policy of peace. He's on the Israeli left. He's from an older mode of left wing thinkers along the same lines of the kibbutzniks and so on, and he's fiercely critical of the West Bank settlers who are encroaching into Palestinian territory in violation of international law. He considers that Hamas favors a 2-state solution (is that still true, I wonder). As does the late Edward Said in his article about Chomsky which acknowledges their limits and gaps, they're actually quite critical of the US. Chomsky's been quite critical of the BDS movement as well. Chomsky is very unkind to the PLO, he says they're self-destructive and suicidal, he says the Arab regimes are not decent and not popular either.[8][9][10][11][12][13] Andre🚐 00:19, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
Include all that then. nableezy - 02:25, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
as someone who has read chomsky closely for 55 years, the absurdly abrupt section on his views regarding the ip conflict looks rigorously like hushing.THe man happens to be the most authoritative historical voice on that conflict, deeply influential, and therefore the expansion, even if it needs some rewriting, is almost obligatory.Nishidani (talk) 07:38, 18 December 2023 (UTC)
Nish, it's not considered cool to revert war content under discussion on the talk page. And "farcical" is hardly the level of scrutiny and justification we will need to make whatever decisions ultimatly find consensus. It would be best if you'd self-revert while the discussion continues. Also, as you are surely aware, as an "historian" Chomsky is rich in opinions (some valid and thought-provoking) but lacking in rigor and academic standing. SPECIFICO talk 16:43, 21 December 2023 (UTC)
Historians are of several kinds, archival, descriptivists, generalists, comparativists etc. I have seen desultory challenges to Chomsky as an historian for a decade and a half, and invariably the contention is generic, that he is not professionally qualified as such. Neither was Walter Laqueur. Lacking in rigour and academic standing? That argument has been applied to any number of professional historians of this area, beginning with Efraim Karsh and Ilan Pappé, but are not taken as invalidating their use, even if the bias on wiki is to aim these critiques at historians seen to be pro-Palestinian, in a field which is overwhelmingly dominated by scholars of an Israeli or Zionist or diasporic background. I don't get the impression Chomsky is 'rich in opinions'. What he does is annotate day by day what was said by whom and when, in what context, all the material that disappears down the memory hole or gets lost in telescoping retroactive studies. It parallels what Morris does in the archives. The latter dredges up the hidden field reportage (in those Israeli sources that are accessible) on history as it unfolded, the former tells you what was publicly reported as history unfolded (the kind of historical narrative Martin Gilbert excelled in), and then was forgotten. But this is not material to the point here.
This is Chomsky's wiki bio, which must cover all relevant parts of his life and oeuvre. Since writing on the I/P conflict has engaged his critical scrutiny extensively for several decades, finding expression in major, influential studies like The Fateful Triangle, the decidedly elliptical coverage of his positions before the edit now contested on the conflict struck me as odd. It now strikes me as fairly due. I've done a ce, because some of the language was pointy. I'm not happy with the description 'anti-Zionist' which is a question-begging reductionist simplification of his position as a pre-Biltmore Zionist who has stayed faithful to that ever since.Nishidani (talk) 23:53, 21 December 2023 (UTC)

The quote boxes here violate MOS:PULLQUOTE and need to be edited out. In context use is better, as is in text attribution where appropriate, or putting information in encyclopedic summary. Alanscottwalker (talk) 15:57, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 19 January 2024

Fix thesis link in sidebar. Currently 404. 2601:281:D17E:89A0:3C85:86E6:FD20:9CD0 (talk) 20:19, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

 Done M.Bitton (talk) 00:01, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

Bosnian Genocide Denial

Given Chomsky's lengthy record of public comments downplaying or outright denying the severity of the 1990s Bosnian Genocide, it is concerning that it's not covered more in-depth in this article. More content regarding these comments would be much appreciated. Royz-vi Tsibele (talk) 00:10, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

I disagree per WP:DUE. I read a number of Chomsky's works and listened to his interviews, and I have never heard it mentioned even once. This is a gross exaggeration. However, the issue is mentioned in the WP:BODY. --David Tornheim (talk) 01:23, 12 February 2024 (UTC)
In particular, Royz-vi Tsibele's recent reverted edit confuses three different statements, namely:
  1. Chomsky has denied the Bosnian Genocide (i.e. claiming it never took place; a claim about reality)
  2. Chomsky has denied that what happened constituted genocide (i.e. claiming it doesn't meet the definition of genocide; a claim at least partly about the meaning of words)
  3. Chomsky has questioned whether what happened constituted genocide
The two references provided in that edit clearly show 3; they do not show 2, let alone 1.
So if anything regarding this is added to the article, it would have to be a statement to the effect that Chomsky is known for considering the term genocide overused, and for having used the murders in Bosnia as a possible example. Rp (talk) 18:21, 16 February 2024 (UTC)
@Rp Denial of the Bosnian Genocide's status as a genocide still constitutes the definition of Genocide Denial. A lot of genocide denial, both anonymously online and by public figures, comes in the form of questioning a genocide's status as a genocide. The Bosnian Genocide was an organized extermination campaign against Bosniaks and Bosnian Croats by the Army of Republika Srpska for the purpose of ethnically cleansing territory for Serbian control. This was a genocide, plain and simple.
Chomsky's claims go against the findings of both the International Court of Justice and the International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia. Chomsky has gone on record saying that some media displaying the Bosnian Genocide is fabricated, and that Bosniak citizens could have avoided their deadly fate by just "going along" with Serbian nationalist plans of mass deportation. These comments and others are utterly atrocious, and should be pointed out more prominently in Chomsky's Wikipedia article.
I think calling Chomsky a genocide denial wouldn't violate WP:NPOV; after all, Pol Pot is called a dictator on his Wikipedia article. Although I have a feeling Chomsky would disagree with that position as well, given his comments on the Cambodian Genocide. It's almost as if Chomsky can't accept the fact that regimes he's sympathetic towards can commit genocide. Royz-vi Tsibele (talk) 13:05, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
You're going to need to provide some more substantial sourcing for these characterizations if you want to establish a consensus that the topic needs more coverage in the article. As it stands, your attempted edit improperly synthesizes claims in your source. Remsense诉 05:11, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
You're right about that, apologies. Will try to find better sourcing in the future. Royz-vi Tsibele (talk) 00:35, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
All of this garbage has been gone through umpteen times before. Chomsky has never downplayed or denied anything in Bosnia; he simply believes the word "genocide" should be restricted to its original meaning, i.e. to describe something like the Holocaust or Rwanda. That's not genocide denial, because nothing in the Yugoslav wars meets that standard. Cambodia: I just cannot be bothered going through it yet again. You're not the slightest bit interested in the facts; you just want to add some tired smears to the article. BowlAndSpoon (talk) 22:43, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
You don't need to go through it again. Please refrain from personal attacks It's not as if you're the only person holding this position here. Remsense诉 05:07, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
@BowlAndSpoon As @Remsense had mentioned, please refrain from directing personal attacks against me. We are both perfectly capable of discussing this topic without delving into purposefully aggressive language and tone.
As defined by Raphael Lemkin and other critical scholars who worked on the United Nations Genocide Convention, a genocide is a series of "acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group." In the Bosnian War, the Army of Republika Srpska sought to eliminate ethnic Bosniaks from territories they considered to be "rightfully Serbian;" such a goal is clearly in line with the definition set out by the United Nations and other accredited organizations. Furthermore, the Cambodian Genocide targeted ethnic minorities within the country, such as Chams, Chinese Cambodians, and Vietnamese Cambodians; once again, such a goal is clearly in line with the definition stated above.
Although the term genocide was created to specifically refer to the Holocaust, the definition laid out by the United Nations (and the literal creator of the term genocide himself) clearly includes other crimes against humanity throughout recent history, such as the Bosnian and Cambodian Genocides. To limit the classification of genocide to just the Holocaust and Rwanda Genocide risks feeding into the final stage of genocide: denial. Denial is what Chomsky is doing here, and it is a shame that the wider Wikipedia community does not recognize that, according to the users on this page at least. Royz-vi Tsibele (talk) 00:53, 19 February 2024 (UTC)
This is OR and synthesis. Your opinions and claims about what genocide is and how they relate to what Chomsky has said about Bosnia are not relevant. To have the article claim that he is a genocide denier or has denied genocide in Bosnia you need reliable sources quoted to that effect, and if possible balanced with RS stating the contrary. 2600:8802:5913:1700:D95E:4856:9AD2:F43D (talk) 06:08, 10 June 2024 (UTC)
Apart from that, destroying people is not the same thing as eliminating them from a territory: the latter can be done by chasing them away. The takeaway from this sort of discussion, for me, is that the application of the term "genocide" is inherently contentious, so we should be extremely careful with its use in Wikipedia articles. Rp (talk) 12:29, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 18 June 2024

Noam Chomsky appears to have died in the morning of the 18th CardiffCreated1 (talk) 19:36, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Read above. We're waiting for further confirmation from more reliable sources. PlateOfToast (talk) 19:39, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
See #Is he dead?, no confirmation from reliable sources yet. Ookap (talk) 19:40, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
 Not done: per above. NotAGenious (talk) 19:55, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 June 2024

noam chomsky died today 70.21.212.104 (talk) 20:37, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

No, he didn't. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:40, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
No evidence he is dead from credible sources. See above Talk:Noam Chomsky#Is he dead? DimensionalFusion (talk) 20:40, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 18 June 2024 (2)

Correct the year date of his stroke to 2024 per the linked news article. Kgayle (talk) 20:38, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Per the linked news article the stroke happened last year. Please.

"Valeria Chomsky said via email that her 95-year-old husband is in a Sao Paulo hospital, where she took him on an ambulance jet with two nurses once he could more easily travel from the United States following the June 2023 stroke." Lacanthrope (talk) 20:40, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
My bad. Thank you for the correction! Yes clearly 2023, not later. Kgayle (talk) 20:43, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Hebrew IPA

Why has been the Hebrew IPA taken down? He has stated himself that both English and Hebrew pronunciation of his name is correct, so in my view, it's an important thing to include. ~~~~ Shallov (talk) 20:48, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Which edit was this? DimensionalFusion (talk) 20:51, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
This one. ~~~~ Shallov (talk) 20:56, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
I've re-added the Hebrew pronounciation to the page DimensionalFusion (talk) 21:03, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
I've just noticed, cheers! ~~~~ Shallov (talk) 21:03, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Update: It's just been removed again DimensionalFusion (talk) 21:33, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
I was the one who removed it initially; it was in a note previously and I moved it to the date brackets as it is in most other articles. However, with the Hebrew IPA it seemed a bit bulky so I removed it instead of the English-IPA since, of course, this is the English Wikipedia and Chomsky's name is, as I've always heard it, pronounced in the English prounciation.
It was purely aesthetical decision on my part. I don't really have an opinion on its inclusion in the lede otherwise. Omnis Scientia (talk) 23:17, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Do you have a source that he used the Hebrew pronunciation of his name? Though given his interest in Hebrew, I could believe it. Cadairidris (talk) 21:26, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
@IvanScrooge98 Since you reverted it, I'd like your opinion here too! DimensionalFusion (talk) 21:35, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Oh, did not see there was a discussion here, sorry. As I quickly explained in my edit summary, my problem is with having an Israeli Hebrew pronunciation for someone who is not Israeli (and even a strong critic of Israel). ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 21:39, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Well, considering he's Jewish and speaks Hebrew from his birth, I think that including the Hebrew pronunciation is valid; him criticising Israel or Zionism does not take his Jewishness away. However, as per @Cadairidris, I must admit that I cannot find any source explicitly mentioning him using the Hebrew pronunciation. I have a memory of a source cited here on Wikipedia, citing him saying something along the lines that he used both English and Hebrew pronunciation and that both were correct, though it might be a false memory (or Google failing me) because I cannot find anything like that as of now. As I thought the source has been cited in the article - and now I've just most likely proven myself wrong - I think I shall not continue advocating for the inclusion of the Hebrew pronunciation, until any source is proven. ~~~~ Shallov (talk) 21:46, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Just to be clear, my point was more that it’s a bit weird to have a pronunciation in the Israeli variety of Hebrew rather than about the Hebrew pronunciation per se. I am aware that Israeli Hebrew is the only variety of the language in current usage, but at the same time Chomsky did not grow up or spend most of his life in Israel, i.e. among speakers of this variety, so that’s it. However, I’m also not sure if Chomsky having studied the language is enough of a qualifier to have any Hebrew pronunciation, even if he is a Jew—for example, you wouldn’t place an Italian pronunciation for the name of a German linguist just because they happen to have also studied Italian. ~ IvanScrooge98 (talk) 22:00, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Is he dead?

No czar 02:45, 19 June 2024 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The page currently has him at "is", but with a death date; yet the article linked does not state that he has died. I don't think there's reliable sources yet stating he's died. Dingers5Days (talk) 18:47, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

I've reverted the edits by Ittybittykittycommittee as the article that they cited does not state that he has died. PlateOfToast (talk) 18:50, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
The Jacobin tweet was a bit confusing, apologies. Will keep poking for a better source. Ittybittykittycommittee (talk) 18:54, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Apparently he had a stroke last week but there is no indication that he is dead. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:57, 18 June 2024 (UTC) Apparently he's still recovering from the stroke he had last year? It's a little unclear to me on first read. – Muboshgu (talk) 18:59, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Jacobin has republished their tweet and obituary but changed it to a "celebration" - seems to confirm they have no good source themselves. https://x.com/jacobin/status/1803145388821487927 Psilopteros (talk) 19:36, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
This hour-old article from MedyaNews (not sure how reliable) appears to say he is recovering, so there is indeed reason to doubt. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 19:39, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Someone claims to have spoken to Chomsky's wife over the phone to confirm he is alive: https://x.com/safbf/status/1803154724415287513 Psilopteros (talk) 20:01, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Yes https://www.telesurenglish.net/noam-chomskys-wife-denies-the-writers-death/ Mohseng (talk) 20:41, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
abc picked it up https://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/noam-chomskys-wife-reports-famed-linguists-death-false-111230880 68.55.122.130 (talk) 21:51, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
there was a tweet (no source given) and the jacobin dropped their obituary (which did not mention or provide a source for his death). it's my opinion that we needn't update the article with his death until more information comes in Pallasproserpina (talk) 19:04, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
This article may need some protection as several users added it back after my initial edit. I took another look again & you are right. There is not enough confirmation. Ittybittykittycommittee (talk) 19:16, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
I have submitted a request for a temporary extended confirmed protection. Lacanthrope (talk) 19:19, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
https://www.newstatesman.com/ideas/2024/06/the-noam-chomsky-i-knew Fourmidable (talk) 19:19, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
This needs more confirmation, these types of articles are written well before his death. Social media is ablaze, there will be better sources. Ittybittykittycommittee (talk) 19:22, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
A new article has appeared from the New Statesman saying he is dead. https://www.newstatesman.com/ideas/2024/06/the-noam-chomsky-i-knew Fruitbat110 (talk) 19:19, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Not enough, if this is confirmed larger outlets will come forward. Ittybittykittycommittee (talk) 19:24, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Yanis Varoufakis (who seemingly wrote the article) claims he knew him personally, so I would give credence to his claim. Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 19:26, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Obituaries are written in advance. Asking Varoufakis for an obituary for someone makes sense, moreover when it is a nonagenary with a recent stroke. Theklan (talk) 19:28, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
The article mentions "when I heard of his passing", but I agree with you, it's not credible enough. A proper credible news source would disclose the source, i.e. "as confirmed to us by Chomsky's family". If he died, it should be in Reuters et al shortly anyway. Philwiki (talk) 19:30, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Someone this prolific will have bigger outlets come forth than anecdotes. Ittybittykittycommittee (talk) 19:29, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
This article has since been deleted. Dingers5Days (talk) 19:52, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
This has been taken down 98.15.107.142 (talk) 20:36, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Your first statement is abhorrent...
Given the news a few days ago about Chomsky's health struggles, it seems easy hoax material. I don't think a single source considered reliable by Wikipedia has commented on his supposed death. Maurnxiao (talk) 19:20, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
more news articles are saying it (https://www.diariodocentrodomundo.com.br/morre-o-professor-e-ativista-noam-chomsky-aos-95-anos/amp/https://www.diariodocentrodomundo.com.br/morre-o-professor-e-ativista-noam-chomsky-aos-95-anos/amp/) but i'm still hesitant to edit until more sources come out Pallasproserpina (talk) 19:26, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
More spanish news networks stating his death:
https://www.continental.com.ar/internacional/murio-noam-chomsky--uno-de-los-linguistas-mas-influyentes-de-la-historia_a6671dc37abfb61e251ff8d4e
https://www.vozpopuli.com/internacional/muere-noam-chomsky.html
https://www.latercera.com/culto/2024/06/18/muere-el-escritor-noam-chomsky-a-los-95-anos/ 167.0.189.248 (talk) 19:30, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
https://www.diariodocentrodomundo.com.br/morre-o-professor-e-ativista-noam-chomsky-aos-95-anos/ Fourmidable (talk) 19:31, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
This just cites the Jacobin article. Psilopteros (talk) 19:35, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Diário do Centro do Mundo is an extremely unreliable source and was in fact banned on Portuguese Wikipedia along with linked sites. We should wait before editing the article, and hopefully this great man can still recover from his stroke. FelipeFritschF (talk) 19:43, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
I don't know Continental, but Vozpopuli is not a very reliable source, as it may just copy from other outlets or tweets. Theklan (talk) 19:32, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
He died stop the nonsense. 102.214.169.107 (talk) 19:45, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Where is your reliable source? Ookap (talk) 19:46, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
The only thing the la Tercera article says is that international news media have reported his death which doesn't seem to be actually true. Stellaathena (talk) 19:44, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Until we get confirmation from the family I say leave it 2.30.180.251 (talk) 19:44, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
The death was just confirmed from MIT's president. Qx.est (Suufi) (talk • contribs) 19:47, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Do you have a source? Ittybittykittycommittee (talk) 19:50, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Source? PlateOfToast (talk) 19:50, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Email sent out by Sally Kornbluth: [14] Qx.est (Suufi) (talk • contribs) 19:51, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
It's about Arvind, not Noam Vedoth (talk) 19:52, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
That's a different person? Psilopteros (talk) 19:53, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Where does this mention Noam Chomsky? PlateOfToast (talk) 19:53, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
That linked email doesn't even mention Chomsky. Philwiki (talk) 19:53, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
That doesn't seem to be about Chomsky 2.30.180.251 (talk) 19:53, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
It says Arvind, not Noam. Phineas1500 (talk) 19:54, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Apologies, his name is Avram not Arvind. This was a mistake on my part. Sorry! Qx.est (Suufi) (talk • contribs) 19:55, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Brazilian economist Eduardo Moreira claims he has talked with Chomsky's Brazilian wife and she says he is alive (though presumably recovering from his stroke). I reiterate that he Brazilian sources used are extremely unreliable and low quality. In fact, I have just checked the DCM article, and they deleted it. FelipeFritschF (talk) 20:03, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Now the rumor mill says he is alive and it was confirmed by his wife, also looking for a source for this. Ittybittykittycommittee (talk) 20:06, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Here is an ABC reporter that says he spoke to his wife to say he is alive: https://x.com/ChrisLooftABC/status/1803154685219484125 Ittybittykittycommittee (talk) 20:07, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
OK, which one of you changed it to say he died yesterday lol 2.30.180.251 (talk) 20:11, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Someone got confused about time zones maybe?Shallov (talk) 20:12, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Most likely based on the above-mentioned MIT communication—Arvind died yesterday. Ookap (talk) 23:53, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Note to anyone who reads down this far. According to WP:BLP and WP:NOT we are not here to report the news, we are here to summarize what is presented in verifiable sources. It doesn’t matter if he is or is not actually dead. Unless it’s hitting multiple high quality sources we don’t put it on the page. Wikipedia doesn’t win by being first, we win by being verifiable. PyropePe (talk) 20:59, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

The New Statesman piece was taken down. Definitely one of the most bizarre things I've seen. JDiala (talk) 19:54, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Jacobin has seemingly changed their headline to be more ambiguous (although I've not really looked into this) 2.30.180.251 (talk) 19:56, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
They have, they've also republished their tweet and changed "embodied" to "has embodied" to imply he's still alive Psilopteros (talk) 19:57, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Can't even access the Jacobin article anymore. PlateOfToast (talk) 19:57, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
I can't even get into the website! 2.30.180.251 (talk) 20:03, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
The NS article has been taken down and the Jacobin web page is not even responsive. I have no clue what's happening. Shallov (talk) 20:05, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
You'd hope Jacobin and the NS would have better sources than a random tweet...! Psilopteros (talk) 19:56, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
The "random tweet" was actually the Jacobin obituary. Though I agree that this situation is absurd and I'd expect better from Jacobin. A bizzare mistake, unless they have a secret reliable source very close to Chomsky lol. Shallov (talk) 19:59, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Reliable source says alive: https://x.com/ChrisLooftABC/status/1803154685219484125 Ittybittykittycommittee (talk) 20:11, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Perhaps you're not familiar with List of prematurely reported obituaries? And of course it shouldn't be added there either until a reliable source about the obituary emerges. Nardog (talk) 21:16, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

It's false according to Chomsky's wife per Glenn Greenwald. Wow, what a gaffe by Jacobin. JDiala (talk) 20:03, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

The New Statesman has deleted its article https://www.newstatesman.com/ideas/2024/06/the-noam-chomsky-i-knew Fourmidable (talk) 20:05, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Also false according to an ABC News reporter who spoke with his wife. https://x.com/chrislooftabc/status/1803154685219484125?s=46 SkinnyMariah (talk) 20:10, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Another primary source: https://x.com/ChrisLooftABC/status/1803154685219484125 Psilopteros (talk) 20:11, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Another source https://x.com/amaurigonzo/status/1803150419415150971 213.194.185.148 (talk) 20:14, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
for good measure...! https://x.com/JoseMSantana10/status/1803152894784581709 Psilopteros (talk) 20:22, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

New Statesman says he died June 18 [15] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.134.26.141 (talk) 20:41, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

That's also gone. The rate at which these "sources" are disappearing strongly suggests he is not dead. Just Step Sideways from this world ..... today 22:36, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Infobox image

Proposed image

Should it be confirmed that he passed away, usually infoboxes are updated with black&white images or images of the subject during their 'peak'. This criteria has been used on actors (Anouk Aimée), writers (Bernard Pivot/Joan Didion), artists (Eric Carle), directors (Roger Corman), athletes (Jerry West/Bill Russell), scientists (Katherine Johnson), comedians (Tom Smothers) and even political figures (Robert Mugabe). I propose the following image to be used on his infobox once he passes away as it reflects a younger Chomsky. TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 19:50, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

I'd agree. It's a nice image of him as well. PlateOfToast (talk) 19:55, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
While having an image of the person during their peak (or, at least, not necessarily the most recent one) is often what is done after their death, I don't think the black-and-white part is an actual criterion (see Elizabeth II, with her official portrait instead). Chaotic Enby (talk · contribs) 19:56, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
It's usually one or the other, it could be an old image and colored like Elizabeth II or it could be black and white. I'm leaning towards this one as it's one of a younger Chomsky and it's not bad in terms of quality. TDKR Chicago 101 (talk) 19:58, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Yes, normally when someone dies it's replaced with a recent photo with an iconic/posterity photo of them at their peak. There's no requirement for it to be black and white, just iconic - or at least, that's my understanding of it.
P.S. Very cool name you got there!! DimensionalFusion (talk) 20:25, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Agreed, it's a good fit and consistent with other biographies of recently deceased individuals. Maurnxiao (talk) 20:31, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
I agree with adding this younger version. --NoonIcarus (talk) 21:03, 18 June 2024 (UTC)
Proposed image B

Hello, there's also this other one that I like as an option where he's smiling, though either would be fine TheLoyalOrder (talk) 03:51, 21 June 2024 (UTC)

Some concerns I have over the "Reception and influence" section

I have some concerns about the section - not enough to consider it NPOV, but enough that I think some changes are warranted:

  • "As a result of his influence, there are dueling camps of Chomskyan and non-Chomskyan linguistics. Their disputes are often acrimonious" - This really needs expansion. I know Daniel Everett is well-known as a critic of Chomsky's linguistic ideas. The "in academia" section in general is I think lacking in stuff on Chomsky's reception and influence in linguistics.
  • "Critics have argued that despite publishing widely on social and political issues, Chomsky has no formal expertise in these areas" - I don't like that this section is solely sourced to defenders of Chomsky and doesn't quote any of his critics.
  • In general I think the "in politics" section relies too heavily on primary sources of right-wing Chomsky critics. I think that paints a particular view of his critics.

Eldomtom2 (talk) 16:26, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Additional note - Decoding Chomsky is referenced but only for some banal claims; I think its critique of Chomsky could at least be mentioned.--Eldomtom2 (talk) 18:05, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
  • This really needs expansion. In what way? The article is about Chomsky and not Chomskyan linguistics, which are already covered in their own section.
  • The "in academia" section in general is I think lacking in stuff on Chomsky's reception and influence in linguistics. In what way? What sources do you recommend on the topic?
  • publishing widely on social and political issues ... doesn't quote any of his critics. ... relies too heavily on primary sources of right-wing Chomsky critics Do the critics need to be cited directly? This summation is coming from a third party. Ideally we wouldn't cite any primary source directly, whether in praise or criticism. Feel free to share any secondary source missing here.
  • Decoding Chomsky is referenced ... its critique of Chomsky could at least be mentioned In what way? Since this is a biography of Chomsky and not an overview of all criticism of Chomsky, we should care what sources secondary to Decoding Chomsky discuss as being significant to Chomsky's biography.
Might want to break some of these bullets into separate threads if they require separate discussion. Most of this can be solved by adding the text or suggesting the sources you think are missing. czar 20:59, 19 July 2024 (UTC)
  • "In what way? The article is about Chomsky and not Chomskyan linguistics, which are already covered in their own section." - If the article is going to say "there are dueling camps of Chomskyan and non-Chomskyan linguistics", there should probably be a sentence summing up some of the key points of contention between the two camps.
  • "Do the critics need to be cited directly?" - well, a fair chunk of the right-wing critics are cited directly. "This summation is coming from a third party." - but they're not really third parties, because they're summing up criticisms of Chomsky and then defending them - and we're quoting their defences directly and giving them more space than the criticism. If the defences of Chomsky were cited to third parties who were not themselves defending Chomsky, I'd be happier.
  • "we should care what sources secondary to Decoding Chomsky discuss as being significant to Chomsky's biography." - This was my point. Decoding Chomsky was a book that got a fair bit of attention, as can be seen by the decent-size article it has, so there are a lot of reviews etc. we can use to talk about it.
  • "Most of this can be solved by adding the text or suggesting the sources you think are missing." - I always find this criticism a bit lazy, to be honest. It often takes less time to point out an issue than fix it, and most of us have other things to do besides edit Wikipedia.--Eldomtom2 (talk) 22:37, 21 July 2024 (UTC)
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