User talk:Motmit/Archive 3

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Happy holidays[edit]

Hello, my friend. Our paths haven't crossed recently, but you were most helpful when I started out here, and I appreciated that. I just wanted to wish you and yours the merriest of Christmases. Take care. Regards,MarmadukePercy (talk) 04:30, 21 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And, incidentally, we still have to do that fox-hunting article. :-) MarmadukePercy (talk) 04:39, 21 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
I've noticed you, too, in passing here and there. Here's hoping for a great New Year for the both of us, and may it bring another chance to collaborate. Take care and enjoy your holidays. Best,MarmadukePercy (talk) 00:21, 23 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That is too funny about the Baccarat Scandal! That thing just won't die, will it? lol MarmadukePercy (talk) 21:45, 23 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So who's stalking who/whom?  :)[edit]

Greetings Motmit - Talk about coincidence! Hope you realise it ain't me that added that criticism! Catch up with you/Beat you to it somewhere. --Technopat (talk) 12:36, 21 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sigh! As is so often the case (in my case, at least), I was so shocked by the glaring typo that I missed the essence - as in "the operation was a success but the patient died". Happy editing! --Technopat (talk) 13:07, 21 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Lightning reflexes! We had an edit conflict at Enemies of Promise when I was leaving a cheeky reply to your typo, but let it pass... :) --Technopat (talk) 18:29, 28 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Great stuff - yet again![edit]

End-of-year greetings to ye! Can't bluff my way out of this one, so it's up to you:

experienced by Bowling since childhood make his past seem distant.

Regards, --Technopat (talk) 18:19, 30 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So it turns out we share a past :) Happy New Year to you, too! --Technopat (talk) 18:35, 30 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hunting[edit]

This should really be the year that we do that foxhunting piece we talked about. Highly controversial subject, but certainly a societal subculture worth exploring. And I'm not just saying that as a way to get you out of the dread Baccarat loop. ;-) Seriously, Happy New Year to you and yours! Best,MarmadukePercy (talk) 00:26, 1 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ouch![edit]

I'd've looked for 'em "Notable alumni" references meself if I'd 'ad the time, honest guv'! --Technopat (talk) 22:19, 3 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Abingdon[edit]

Thanks for correcting me William M. Connolley (talk) 20:59, 6 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]


London Institution[edit]

Hi Motmit Thanks for all your help. I am still quite a novice to Wikipedia and getting to grips with navigation. Are you receiving me? The designation of 'Richard Sharp (politician)' was suggested by my editor 'Victuallers' to distinguish him from the Rugby player of the same name. Many academics are likely to search for him as either Richard Sharp or Conversation Sharp. I can assure you that all the text supplied was my original work, as published, and therefore not copied/pasted from someone else's work. I intend writing a similar piece on the 'King of Clubs club' but my computer is unwell and will be out of action for a few days. Good wishes, Mariakinnaird (talk) 08:45, 12 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

small world[edit]

Re Derbyshire cricketers. I have noticed your articles on derbyshire cricketing sheriffs.... I never knew they existed. As for help... well I'm not into sports... but maybe listing the articles you intend to write at project derbyshire might assist. Particulrly if they have other interests which overlap with our other members "thing". Hope this helps. Oh and Maria Kinnaird is on the main page .... NOW! Victuallers (talk) 19:46, 15 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Cheers[edit]

Cheers for the note on my Derbyshire redlinks talk page. I've piped the link through - if you ever notice anything amiss on the subpages before I do, please feel free to fix it - I thought that was part of the fun of getting there first! Bobo. 01:13, 27 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

NPOV[edit]

Greetings Motmit - didn't have time to pop over here earlier, but when you have a moment could you have look at the new section I added over at George Orwell. It seemed OK at the time, but with retrospect and seen from the outside it might look as if it needs more references and/or toning down a bit. I think adding such a section might help to reduce the tension. Ever-the-optimist... :) Cheers!--Technopat (talk) 20:07, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for reply - in the meantime had added some more stuff - using selective quotes getting others' cited opinions. I know what you mean, but I reckon that by keeping things out in the open there'll be more reasonable editors out there to keep an eye on things. Regs., --Technopat (talk) 22:22, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Re. yer Baptist minister, thought it was a good way of pointing out to reasonable folk - and there really are plenty of 'em out there - the kind of stuff that goes down... --Technopat (talk) 22:38, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Userboxes[edit]

Hello Motmit!

If you put ((boxtop)) and ((boxbottom)) (replacing "( )" with "{ }") at either end of your list of User boxes, that should do the trick.

Hope this helps! Hugh (talk) 23:59, 29 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

---Thanks for pointing that out - I've fixed it now! :) Hugh (talk) 18:16, 01 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

London Institution[edit]

Hi Motmit

Just to say thanks again for helping to get my article into a presentable form. I have made a few more minor adjustments myself which you might like to cast an eye over. You will not find a more detailed account of this important club anywhere else and I'm glad it is now in the public domain. There are various images of the new (1815) building by Cubitts but I'm not sure I can lay my hands on it at the moment. Would it be a useful addition, or not ? Good wishes, Mariakinnaird (talk) 21:53, 4 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Cricketer nomination[edit]

It's been a while[edit]

It's been a while since I checked my subpage User:Bobo192/Derbyshire redlinks, and since I last checked, you have created at least thirteen of the remaining names. Thank you for your dedication to the obscure remaining names.

528 names down, 87 to go! Bobo. 01:39, 27 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Seven captains? I had no idea. Thanks for increasing the coverage - particularly with Maynard Ashcroft. And now we've got all the Hill-Woods covered, too. Bobo. 18:22, 27 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

DYK for Robin Buckston[edit]

Updated DYK query On March 4, 2009, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Robin Buckston, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Gatoclass (talk) 14:46, 4 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Nice one![edit]

(Hand-clapping smiley) --Technopat (talk) 21:02, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Good on you[edit]

I see you're still busy here. Glad to see it. Hope you're well, and that our paths will cross again one of these days. Best, MarmadukePercy (talk) 21:32, 6 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hope you don't mind[edit]

I've deleted User talk:Bobo192/Derbyshire redlinks, to which you had posted two comments. I deleted all my user subpages of this nature and have replaced them with the rather vaguely titled User:Bobo192/first-class players lists, to which I will eventually add all the other countries' first-class players lists, particularly those of Zimbabwe and Pakistan, and probably the List A teams at the bottom of the list, for the purposes of space conservation.

All the best. Bobo. 06:07, 7 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

DYK for Sir Henry King, 1st Baronet[edit]

Updated DYK query On March 14, 2009, Did you know? was updated with a fact from the article Sir Henry King, 1st Baronet, which you created or substantially expanded. If you know of another interesting fact from a recently created article, then please suggest it on the Did you know? talk page.

Royalbroil 05:43, 14 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

James Eadie[edit]

Does this help? It looks like he retired to an estate at Glenrinnes. "The Country Gentlemen's Estate Book" of 1905 (presumably based on data from the year of his death) calls him "of Glenrinnes, Banffshire and Barrow Hall, Derby". Choess (talk) 02:34, 25 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

James Mackenzie Maclean[edit]

Thanks for this fantastic article; always good to find someone writing old British political bios other than myself :). Keep up the good work! Ironholds (talk) 09:58, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've written quite a few myself; mostly stubs, unfortunately. List of Stewards of the Chiltern Hundreds and List of Stewards of the Manor of Northstead are both mine, hence the interest and knowledge. I mainly work on law articles, though, not politics; This chappie straddled both rather nicely. Ironholds (talk) 10:13, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
By the way, do you have access to the Oxford DNB? They have an excellent article on Maclean. If not, give me a poke and I'll try to weave it in. Ironholds (talk) 10:18, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I'll get started on that after I've finished turning Patrick Hastings into an FAable article (tomorrow, say) :P. Ironholds (talk) 14:04, 30 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Yup, I'll add that to my "to do" list as well. Ironholds (talk) 00:19, 31 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Teddington Lock[edit]

I really do not understand what your problem is with accepting that the tide can reach pass Teddington Lock and it clearly matters more to you than to me so I'll let the inaccurate statement stand. I live 200m from the Thames and about 500m from Teddington Lock but if you think that you know the area better than me then good luck to you.

The citation states that the tide can pass Teddington Lock and London does flood regularly, i.e. several times a month, just do a google for something like "flood richmond thames" and see what you get. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Reesmf (talk • contribs) 14:15, 3 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The document states at the very bottom of page 1, "The tidal limit of the Thames is within the Borough, at Teddington Lock (although it is noted that this can be breached on extreme high tides)." Thanks to Global Warming this is an increasing problem. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Reesmf (talk • contribs) 20:12, 4 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I too have been trying to get more confirmation of what I know to be true (I live here and can see it) and while I've yet to find something else online I have swapped some emails with the man who knows, Jason Debney of the Thames Landscape Strategy (http://thames-landscape-strategy.org.uk/contact) and he said, "Just go and have a look at what the river does at high spring tide coinciding with a high fluvial flow. It is by means official - just what is being observed. I doubt therefore that you would find anything on line. Jason". —Preceding unsigned comment added by Reesmf (talk • contribs) 11:56, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I took before and after photos of the tide going over the weir yesterday. I'll put them online in a couple of days and send you the links. And you do see a tide line above Teddington Lock, Canbury Gardens is a good place to see this. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Reesmf (talk • contribs) 21:38, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Moves[edit]

Thanks I appreciate you posting on my talk, but I take issue with your assertions.

  1. Clearly, this article is not just on the essay "Inside the Whale" - see the infobox, for instance. I'll grant you that there is not enough information on the publication itself, but that's on my to-do list.
  2. As for Adelphi (magazine), you are certainly right that this publication had two names, but strictly speaking "Adelphi" was neither of them. Also, I don't know of any other article that has a naming style like this, whereby a name is chosen that is like both names, but not actually either of them. Do you?

Again, your feedback is welcome. Please post on my talk if you have any. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 15:33, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Good point I agree with your assessment of Inside the Whale - the book itself is not the thrust of the article, nor particularly important in Orwell's body of literature. I still dissent on The Adelphi, as Adelphi, London implies that it is not called "The Adelphi," and even if it was, it would still have the ", London" suffix making disambiguation unnecessary. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 19:53, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Addendum I've made a request for move to fix redirects, etc. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 19:55, 7 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Split I'd be fine with splitting them if there was enough content, but there is not and I find it highly suspect that there could be considering how obscure the book is. E.g. I just merged Don't Let's Start (EP) and Don't Let's Start; there is no justification for two articles. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 00:30, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Addendum Thanks for the thanks - the signature is as much a reminder to myself as it is an admonishment to others. —Justin (koavf)❤T☮C☺M☯ 04:41, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Greetings Motmit. Don't have time to sort this out right now, but maybe you'd like to have a butcher's at the following URL: http://georgeorwell.t35.com/Photos/first_editions/index.htm
and do summat with it, as in "an essay published in book form". (Wikipedia makes a thing of referring to first editions). Gotta rush! Cheers! --Technopat (talk) 09:08, 8 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Kingston A and B[edit]

I don't suppose you know of any photos? The best one I've seen so far seems to be this one. Pterre (talk) 22:49, 18 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you ...[edit]

... for this edit. I have no idea what happened, there, but it looks like I started a stub, pasted in a load of text from another article and then abandoned it. :(

You're right -- the result was a complete mess. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 23:02, 22 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

64 to go[edit]

Still enjoying the work you're doing on former Derbyshire cricketers. Thank you for helping me out with these. 552 down, 64 first-class names remaining! I think I've run out of all the useful work I can do on various names. Bobo. 21:08, 28 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

George William Latham[edit]

Hi Motmit

Congratulations on all the articles you are writing on MPs. I have been running through constituencies checking succession boxes and have come across quite a few of them!

Just one small point relating to George William Latham. You had written that he "lost the seat in the 1886 general election.", citing Rayment as a source. I was puzzled, because Rayment just gives succession info, and doesn't say why an MP no longer held the seat ... so I checked Craig, and found that Latham had not contested the 1886 general election. I just thought I'd point this out, because while a lot of Liberals were defeated in 1886, it's a mistake to assume that any who didn't make it into the next Parliament were defeated. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 01:23, 7 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

PS Similar issue with this version of Joseph Bennett (UK politician). You had him listed as having been defeated in 1895, but according to Craig he did not contest the 1895 election. Unless you have a source explaining what happened at an election, it's best to leave unspecified the question of whether they stood down or were defeated. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 11:30, 7 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Reply moved from User talk:BrownHairedGirl to keep thread together

Thank you for your messages. I am very sorry that in a hundred or so new articles which I created I made a couple of mistakes. I tried to conclude their parliamentary career with a neutral statement, except where from various sources other than Leigh Rayment (which doesn't say) it appeared that that they had lost or stood down. Obviously I got some wrong. This problem should only occur within the last 20 or so articles for six-month-wonders which I created so it should be containable. The great thing with wiki is that those with better knowledge of a subject or access to more information can correct simple good faith errors so thank you for doing that. You will be glad to know that there are only six more English 1885 MPs who need articles and I will try to take more care when I do them. That is as far as I am going, as I have no intention of following Gladstone into the quagmire of Hibernian politics. Motmit (talk) 13:31, 7 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Motmit, I'm very sorry if you feel got at -- that really was not my intention, and as I said above you really have done great work in starting so many new articles. None of us has an error rate of zero, and you have caught a few errors of mine, so I'm not in any way trying to do you down!
It's simply that since I have been lucky enough to be able to obtain a complete set of Craig's election results (which are not perfect, but appear in general to be the most authoritative source on UK elections from 1832 to about 1950), I'm in a position to check things over, and to correct some of the errors which creep into articles from using sources which address political careers only tangentially (I even found one case where the DNB appears to be wrong). It's no prob correcting it, but I thought it would be helpful to let you know about a small glitch I had noticed. If it wasn't helpful, I'm sorry to annoy you.
One other small thing. I notice that you have been reverting the succession boxes which I have converted to use the newer {{s-new}}, {{s-ttl}} etc format, with edit summaries such as "pointless tinkering". That's a pity, because there is a purpose to it: in most cases, the simpler {{succession box}} format produces identical output, and in those cases it would indeed be pointless tinkering to use {tl|s-ttl}} etc. However, in cases where a constituency was created or abolished, using the {{s-new}} and {{s-non}} templates produces simpler output, which is a reader-benefit. I don't in any way want to criticise any editor who hasn't the various permutations made possible by using the component templates rather than {{succession box}} (I used to be one of them, cos it took me ages to get my head around the components), but once the templates have been revised to use the format which produces less cluttered output, why revert it? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:55, 7 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
With post grad qualifications in HCI design and several years advising on computer system usability, I find expecting people to convert from straightforward English to tl|s-ttl, tl|s-non and other completely unintuitive gobbledegook to be complete anathema. Motmit (talk) 22:51, 7 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Motmit, are we talking about the same thing? I have not asked you or anyone else to convert anything, or criticised you in any way for not doing so. I'm not asking you to take any action at all, just to refrain from undoing something which has been done by someone else, and which simplifies presentation for the reader. If you look at the articles on more prominent MPs such as Winston Churchill or David Lloyd George, you'll find that {{s-ttl}} etc is used where the succession is not a straightforward one from one office-holder to another. Where {{succession box}} produces the same output, I don't support using a more complex format; I have applied the change only where it simplifies presentation. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 11:30, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]
What I am talking about is that I created articles with the simplest possible succession box that was intuitively obvious so that any inexperienced user could change it; and it was universally applicable so that if someone wanted to add another different box to the article it was dead straightforward to do so. This was systematically being changed into a can of worms that I wouldn't touch with a barge-pole by someone who admits "it took me ages to get my head around the components"; and the edit record stands to show that in many instances it took more than one go to get it to work. The can of worms was moreover specific to new constituencies and could not be used as the basis for another box. As there appeared to be no preceptible difference in the output I put it back to how I wanted it. I have finally spotted what the output difference is - it makes the words "preceded by" disappear from the preceding box. Personally I don't see having the words "preceded by" as making it cluttered or in any need of simplification and it does not seem as if anyone else cares much either. Anyway that's it, and I dont want any more clutter about it on my talk page, so I'm out of here. (Sorry about the mixed metaphor, George) Motmit (talk) 19:15, 8 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Arthur Morton[edit]

Hi there Motmit. Enjoyed your latest Derbyshire article on Arthur Morton (cricketer, born 1883) - just a note though:

When you created the page, User:Radiofan quickly moved it to Arthur Morton (cricketer). However, this confuses the issue as regards the other Derbyshire cricketer, Arthur Morton (cricketer, born 1882). I am awaiting his okay with regards to moving the article you created back to Arthur Morton (cricketer, born 1883) before I turn Arthur Morton (cricketer) into the necessary disambiguation page.

Keep up the awesome work. Bobo. 13:38, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

On User talk:Bobo192, Motmit said:
Thanks for sorting out the redirects. Regards.

No worries. I much prefer to use disambiguation pages when, in the real-world, there is no particular sense of WP:PRIME, that is, someone who knew little about cricket would not be expecting there to be two players from the same team with the same name and therefore, as both are obscure if only to them, rather than to us cricket folk, I feel it much easier to have two pages under what look to us to be "more complicated titles".

Of the 61 Derbyshire articles left, how many more do you have in the pipeline? I'm still waiting for a Derbyshire player this season to make a first-class debut, by the looks of it the only player on their books not to have picked up a first-class appearance as yet is Edward Jones (this guy) who is listed in this year's Playfair.

Thank you again. Bobo. 08:41, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Dick Sale[edit]

Not to worry - I'll redirect Richard Sale (cricketer, born 1919) through to Dick Sale - that should do the trick. Bobo. 17:29, 11 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Derbyshire[edit]

By my reckoning, there are only nine post-WWII Derbyshire players who don't have articles - the rest had relatively short careers, some of whom I took care of writing the original article - a lot of which you've since expanded! Bobo. 08:51, 12 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thames railway bridges[edit]

Thankyou for your kind message about railway bridges over the Thames on Template:Cherwell Valley Line. I've added names and links for Thames railway bridges on Template:Wycombe Railway RDT as well. Railway route diagrams are fiddly and take me hours. It's nice to know it's appreciated! Motacilla (talk) 18:57, 25 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

William Bass (Brewer)[edit]

Many thanks for the excellent and original material you have added to William Bass (Brewer). It did not occur to me that there might be some good stuff for this article at British History on-line. Dormskirk (talk) 11:16, 31 May 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hey there[edit]

You mentioned this to me sometime ago, but I thought nothing of it until I just looked. These were not on my list, for obvious reasons, but here is a list of cricketers who played in non-first-class cricket for Derbyshire between 1888 and 1893:

As I remember, you mentioned perhaps combining these into an article — I have had it mentioned to me whether it would be useful to make an article Early history of Derbyshire County Cricket Club) or similar. Bobo. 11:18, 30 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What to do next[edit]

Thanks for pinging me back, Motmit, and it's good to hear from you once again.

I haven't touched it for a long, long time, but I have written a subpage at User:Bobo192/Derbyshire 1895, which I hope is factually accurate, but is very heavily stats-based — and is essentially a run-down of the results and statistics of the season.

I should do a quick run-through to check it's all factually and statistically accurate, but that's what I hashed out essentially in an early afternoon — over 18 months ago! What do you think? Bobo. 16:54, 1 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hingham, Norfolk[edit]

Hey, my friend, thanks for fiddling with that page. It looks a lot better. I hope all goes well these days. Anything new on the Bass's? :-) MarmadukePercy (talk) 22:24, 2 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

George Yates[edit]

You raised the issue of the two George Yates on WT:CRIC in May and I don't know if you're aware but the records on CA have been changed. I wasn't sure whether you emailed them but I did last month with what I believed to be the problem. Can you take a look at this to see if it is fixed or whether I have simply confused things further. Can I also add a well done on all the great work you've done improving the articles of Derbyshire cricketers. --Jpeeling (talk) 13:15, 5 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for that - have now sorted out the Yates situation.Motmit (talk) 14:24, 5 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Derbyshire[edit]

Hi there Motmit. Looks like an interesting read. Personally I would move it to Derbyshire County Cricket Club season 1871, as per, for example, Manchester United F.C. season 2007–08.

Could you pass an eye over User:Bobo192/Derbyshire 1895? What do you think to the prose? It's pretty much entirely stat-based, so there is little in terms of continuous prose. There are no tables, currently, but I can deal with those in time. Bobo. 21:35, 8 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

On User talk:Bobo192, Motmit said:
Re your 1895,I find it a little overwhelming with text, but perhaps with the tables that could be reduced a bit.

I was curious as to what tables I could include. Perhaps either a complete County Championship table of that year, or Derbyshire's position and the position either-side, to compare. Of course if we did this for every team, we could make them navigable between each other.

And would the season's batting/bowling averages be of use? Bobo. 01:22, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

For the club season, I was thinking of a table of matches with results as in 1871 and with expanded notes (of centuries, 5+wkt bowling etc). There are some sources that give records of interesting events- eg hat-tricks, injuries etc, but I am a bit wary of speculative interpretation (eg why people moved up or down the batting order). Batting/bowling figures per player will deal with the orphan bot nuisance. The county champ table should, I suppose, be in the national cricket article for the year. Motmit (talk) 10:26, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Season articles[edit]

If we were to have a season article for every season of every County Championship team, though, that would be 1,964 articles! And presumably a lot of them would be quite prose-y. Bobo. 01:31, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Is your concern the sheer number of articles or the amount of work? For now I would concentrate on special seasons - eg 1936, 1895, and possibly 1887 and the awful 1920 without giving the impression of it being an incomplete exercise to do them all. Maybe then move on to 10 or 5 year summaries? Motmit (talk) 10:26, 9 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Hi there. Sorry, I've not been very active on Wiki lately - my mind has been somewhat occupied with other things. Thank you for replying to this. If it makes the exercise seem slightly less incomplete, as such, I have been attempting to work chronologically - I was in fact going to start writing another one quite soon. It's been a while since I wrote anything new. I was going to work on 1896 next, but if you would rather I worked on 1936, or similar, please let me know. Eitherway, no work would ever be lost, as such. Bobo. 17:13, 11 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Table[edit]

I see you've added the season table. Just the way I would have formatted it, too. Should we change the heading "winning margin" to "margin"? That way it refers merely to the result and does not mention eitherway that the result was either a win or otherwise.

Feel free to go ahead and make this change or otherwise leave it as is if you disagree with my opinion. Thank you for your work. Bobo. 21:07, 12 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Very happy to have suggestions - should we include venue (underneath the opposition perhaps as it would widen the table otherwise) and type -County champ or not - (instead of the number which is probably redundant) ? Or is that unneccessary clutter? Motmit (talk) 21:40, 12 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
I quite like having the game number there, if only because it removes the need to "keep count", as it were. Maybe for the MCC game, put something like "Not part of the County Championship", or something similar. I will implement this change and, again, see what you think. Bobo. 23:38, 12 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Batting and bowling figures[edit]

I finished up the season's figures, based on Cricket Archive data. Do you think we should cite http://cricketarchive.com/Derbyshire/Seasons/Seasonal_Averages/1895_f_Batting_by_Player.html and http://cricketarchive.com/Derbyshire/Seasons/Seasonal_Averages/1895_f_Bowling_by_Player.html in the uppermost cell, or do citation 21 and 22 cover this?

Looking forward to hearing your feedback on the tables. Bobo. 16:58, 13 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I was going to make the tables sortable, so, thank you for doing so before I had the chance to ask you if it would be a good idea. We're like, one mind! Bobo. 18:35, 13 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for that. I had been working on the same all day, but never mind we have an almost identical result. And you just managed an edit conflict on my talk page as well! Personally I prefer the original Cricket Archive to the various front ends as it is then consistent across all instances, but it is worth having a citation either in the table or just after it. Motmit (talk) 18:40, 13 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Environment Agency[edit]

Hi Motmit, thanks for your query. I work for the EA so I have insider information :) These new directorates were implemented a couple of months ago but they haven't really been fully embedded yet. I think the big changes are that all non-flood related water work (e.g. water resources) has moved over (from what was Water Management) to the Environment & Business directorate (formerly Environmental Protection). Also, the Evidence directorate has been set up to more sensibly house those bits of the business that were more cross-cutting, such as Science, Reporting and Data & Information.
I could have got some of that wrong (I don't generally deal with such high-level stuff), so I will see if I can find out some more information for you. It'll probably be off our intranet though, and so not really referencable in the article. I was hoping that there'd be something on the EA website by now, but I can't find anything yet. Bazonka (talk) 18:46, 13 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Here's some info on the directorates off the EA Intranet. (Not much info on Evidence I'm afraid.)
  • Communications - Our teams manage the way we communicate internally, to the public, and to partners and stakeholders. We use a variety of channels including the Internet, print, press and events. We also have teams who work with the European Union, MPs, customers and local partners. Teams are:
    • Media and Events
    • Strategic Communications
    • Corporate Communications
    • Communications Development & Planning
    • External Relations (including External Funding)
  • Evidence - Teams are:
    • Data and Information
    • Environmental Planning and External Reporting
    • Monitoring and Modelling
    • Planning and Performance
    • Science
  • Environment and Business - The Environment & Business (E&B) Directorate will provide leadership in how we deal, in an integrated way, with the relationships between climate change, people, business, protection of natural resources (air, land, water) and sustainable use of energy, water and materials. What our aims are:
    • Embed better regulation and fair enforcement
    • Influence development of the most cost-effective interventions to protect and improve the environment
    • Promote green business and sustainable resource use
    • Embed sustainability into national, regional and local plans and strategy
    • Champion the mitigation of and adaptation to climate change
    • Protect and enhance freshwater and marine fisheries
    • Set the standards and manage the sustainable use of water and land to protect our soils and provide water for people, leisure, business, local communities and wildlife
    • Ensure that new and existing developments are environmentally sustainable - in terms of water resources, water quality, flood risk, waste management and energy use - and to work with communities to improve the quality of local places.
Teams are:
    • Business Performance and Regulation
    • Climate Change and Sustainable Development
    • Integrated Regulation (IR) Programme
    • Land and Natural Environment
    • Planning Performance and Resources
    • Water
  • Flood and Coastal Risk Management - The Flood & Coastal Risk Management (FCRM) directorate sets our direction, manages key stakeholder relationships and owns our policy for all of our Flood and Coastal Risk work. We also set our direction for incident management across the Environment Agency. What our aims are:
    • The impact of floods on people and their property will reduce
    • We will have the best science to analyse and map the probability of flooding and coastal erosion and take account of the impact of climate change
    • Where flood and coastal risks are unacceptable, development plans will be changed or the development will be stopped
    • Buildings will be more resilient to flooding and people will be given adequate flood warnings
    • Flood and sea defences will work with natural processes, where possible, to provide benefits for communities and for wildlife
    • More people will be protected from flooding, by more and better defences where justified in towns, the countryside and coast
    • We will plan ahead for flood risk in all our work and adapt to change, including climate change
Teams are:
    • Asset Management
    • Incident Management
    • Investment Planning
    • Planning, Performance and Programmes
    • Portfolio
    • Strategy and Engagement
  • Finance - Each region has its own finance and planning teams to support local managers. The national teams listed below are responsible for the mechanisms, policies and guidance of generated income and spending wisely. Functions are:
    • Commercial Development
    • Environmental Finance and Pension Fund Management
    • Financial Services and Development
    • Financial Management
    • Planning, Performance & Risk
    • Charging Finance
    • Finance Change Programme
    • Flood Risk Management Finance
    • Procurement
  • Legal Services - Legal Services carries out work in prosecution, enforcement, litigation, permitting and appeals, negotiations, formulation of policy proposals, and influencing policy development by Central Government and Wales Assembly Government. We also act in a support role providing research, analysis and legal advice for all other functions and parts of the Environment Agency. This not only relates directly to environmental law but also to administrative law and human rights, planning and property, commercial and procurement interests and information and data protection.
  • National Operations - Teams are:
    • Incidents and Emergencies
    • Met Office Joint Venture
    • National Operations Services (NOS)
    • National Capital Programme Management Service (ncpms)
    • National Laboratory Service
  • Regions - Our regional teams sit within the Operations directorate. We do a wide variety of work including regulation and enforcement, protecting and monitoring the environment, flood risk management and communicating with customers.
  • Resources - The Resources function supports business delivery through ensuring all staff have the right skills, technology, accommodation and vehicles to do their jobs well and that our carbon footprint is as low as possible. Teams are:
    • Accommodation Project
    • Corporate Information Services
    • Employee Performance
    • Employee Resourcing
    • Fleet Operations
    • HR Operations
    • Internal Environmental Management
    • Internal Transformation
    • National Property team
Hope that all helps, and let me know if you need anything more. Keep up the good work! Bazonka (talk) 16:31, 14 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Derbyshire 1936[edit]

Hi there. Hope you're doing well.

I've made a start on Derbyshire's 1936 season. I wanted to get the first part of the job done, so that it felt like I had at least started the task. I hope you think this is okay, so far. I have not started citing as yet, and certain parts need filling out, but I will get to that as soon as necessary.

As ever, if you think anything needs adding beyond what I have already, feel free to do so. Bobo. 11:57, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

On User talk:Bobo192, Motmit said:
Hi Bobo - coincidentally I have just pulled out the data to build the tables for 1936. If you are ahead of me on this, carry on as there's not much lost, but if not I am happy to continue with them. Regards

Please feel free to do so, when you have the time. If you insert the table at the bottom, I will work further on the prose above the table in the next few days, and see what you feel and how you can improve on it. Thank you for getting back to me. Bobo. 16:00, 27 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thames Trad Rally[edit]

Hi Motmit. Don't know whether you went to the Thames Trad Rally last month (we've been meaning to go for years to see the "proper" boats but still haven't made it) but I came across some really good pictures on the Yachting and Boat World website which I thought you might like - http://www.ybw.com/gallery/thames-trad-rally/aas Best, Nancy talk 05:45, 2 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Richard Sykes[edit]

Greetings, Motmit: I'm pleased to find your entry for Richard Sykes and hope you will entertain some additions to it from someone in North Dakota who has had a long-time interest in his presence and influence here in the "outback" of America. Most of my contributions will have to do with Sykes in the U.S. and particularly with his activities in Dakota Territory during the 1880s. PlainsArchitecture (talk) 17:55, 10 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

NowCommons: File:Descut01.JPG[edit]

File:Descut01.JPG is now available on Wikimedia Commons as Commons:File:Desborough Cut.JPG. This is a repository of free media that can be used on all Wikimedia wikis. The image will be deleted from Wikipedia, but this doesn't mean it can't be used anymore. You can embed an image uploaded to Commons like you would an image uploaded to Wikipedia, in this case: [[File:Desborough Cut.JPG]]. Note that this is an automated message to inform you about the move. This bot did not copy the image itself. --Erwin85Bot (talk) 21:59, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

File:HWTW02.JPG is now available as Commons:File:Hampton Water Works buildings.JPG. --Erwin85Bot (talk) 22:02, 16 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]
File:AbingdonWeir01.JPG is now available as Commons:File:AbingdonWeir01.JPG. --Erwin85Bot (talk) 19:25, 1 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you![edit]

Thanks for improving that article on the Umpteenth Earl of Whatever that I AfD'd. It is a far better entry now and clearly shouldn't be deleted. Dmz5*Edits**Talk* 22:28, 18 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Walter Reader-Blackton[edit]

Hi. Cricketarchive and his Wisden obit in 1977 have him as having been born as Walter Reader, not Walter Blackton, as you have him. There's patently quite a bit of mobility about his name, because Wisden 1921 has him as Mr W. Reader-Blacton with no 'k' and Wisden 1922 calls him Mr W. R. Blackton. I don't have Wisden 1915 to know what he was called then. Cheers. Johnlp (talk) 18:52, 19 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

C A A and redlinks[edit]

You're quite right - my apologies for running amuck. I cannot promise to turn many of the red links blue, but will undertake to try one in expiation. Tim riley (talk) 19:45, 20 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Now done: An Eton Poetry Book - the only Alington work on my shelves. Tim riley (talk) 13:41, 22 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Stout Chaps[edit]

Hi Motmit, this may need further research but there seems to be a family link. http://www.genealogy.amay.co.uk/main.php?p=HF2b gives William Henley Stout and references his father, who won the Diamond Scull, and his want to name his children after boat races. The start of this article also gives more info http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1P2-14502557.html and Percy also had a middle name connected to boatracing, Wyfold. http://www.scrum.com/england/rugby/player/1295.html

I may need a bit more hunting but there seems to be a connection, here (somewhere). FruitMonkey (talk) 14:18, 26 August 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keith Stevenson[edit]

I had a feeling it would end this way. Just one more Derbyshire redlink remaining. Thank you for covering Laurie Johnson for me - as ever, a very interesting read.

What is our next task? Fleshing out articles on Derbyshire County Cricket Club in 1895, 1936, and.. what was the other year you suggested to work on first? My brain has gone blank! It was a year in which they had performed somewhat disastrously.

All the best, and we can start work on the season articles soon! Bobo. 10:28, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

On User talk:Bobo192, Motmit said:
There was always a chance that a Hampshire cricket fan would take KS out. Actually I have come across two Derbyshire players who were not on your redlist, so there may be more. You will see I have set up Derbyshire County Cricket Club seasons and have redlinked some of the seasons which I have in the pipeline.


Intriguing. I would be interested to know who I am missing. I knew there was a chance I would have missed a couple of names out by accident.

Thanks for the report. I will ponder some more on the intervening seasons which I have not yet planned to write about.

As a matter of interest: I'm not much of a reader in real life - do you know any moderately-widely-available books that deal with the history or other information about Derbyshire CCC? Perhaps we could get a portion of information from other literature rather than just pure stats. "1936 - and all that"? ;D Bobo. 11:30, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

One-match wonders[edit]

There was always the chance that I had missed out one one-match wonders while scanning scorecards and the individual years' stats. Thank you for clarifying.

Mmm. I don't know whether I feel satisfied that this is a task nearly-finished or sad that the task is almost done and dusted. Thank you as ever for your assistance. Not much more for us to do before I start working on, perhaps, User:Bobo192/Derbyshire 1896, or closing out User:Bobo192/Derbyshire 1936.

Good work, as ever. Three teams (nearly) down, 15 to go! Bobo. 01:05, 8 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you[edit]

Thank you for finishing our list off! Now to find those other phantom names and add them! And to work on all the other teams' players. I am, as we speak, writing a list for South African domestic team North West, which will be added to my list soon. Bobo. 00:47, 9 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Just a thought...[edit]

Greetings Motmit- long time since our swords paths last crossed. It just occurred to me that you might find the WP:ROLLBACK feature useful. Someone suggested it to me recently and I must admit to having been a bit reluctant to use it, but it does save time that can be better employed making more constructive edits. The link above names admins who grant it, but zzuuzz (talk) was the one who granted mine. Have fun with yer editing. Cheers! --Technopat (talk) 22:01, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wychnor[edit]

Thanks for the assist, my friend. The other thing that needs doing is changing the title of the piece to Wychnor Park. Someone named it Wychnor Hall in the beginning, but as you can see from my posts to the talk page, it's never been known as 'the Hall'; it was always 'Park,' and the name needs to be changed to reflect that. I have never renamed an existing piece and don't know how to do it. Hope all is well on your end. Best, MarmadukePercy (talk) 19:10, 29 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Haven't had a chance to look at John Levett yet, but Wychnor has always been Wychnor Park. Results on googlebooks for Hall: 2,710 (mostly wiki mirrors); results for Park: 76,600. The accepted history of the family, The Levetts of Staffordshire by Dyonese Levett Haszard, who lived at Milford Hall, another Levett residence in Staffordshire, calls it 'Wychnor Park,' and never even bothers to mention 'Wychnor Hall.' Best, MarmadukePercy (talk) 19:55, 29 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
John looks good, thanks. Sometimes when one has made additions to pieces in drips and drabs over a long period of time, it's easier for a 'fresh pair of eyes' to take a look and organize. Thanks.
The Special Barnstar
Thanks again, mot. Always a pleasure. MarmadukePercy (talk) 21:24, 29 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Marm for your appreciation,Motmit (talk) 09:14, 30 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Alan Clark[edit]

First of all Sheffield and Corrigan are not 'apologists'. Perhaps you should read their work (more thoroughly?). Neither of these two authors defends Haig unduly. Infact they do attack Haig over the Somme and various other failures. Moreover, their position that the British Army Generals were on a (even if somewhat jagged) learning curve is undeniable. And I have to remind you; this position is the dominant academic position in this regard.

All Alan Clark and other uneducated, agenda driven journalists and politicians have done is to write books like the donkeys and pass it off as factual history. This feeds the myths and bull shit fed to your average Joe Blogs in the street. Is it any wonder the gap between academic opinion and public perception of the war is widening? 86.144.111.199 (talk) 13:21, 16 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Special barnstar[edit]

The Recent Changes Recognition Barnstar
I hereby give you out this prototype barnstar in recognition of your recently made edits (within some minutes) in the Henry Whatley Tyler artticle, I hope this made your day better and encourage you to continue contributing! Happy smiles...er....editings! - ☩Damërung ☩. -- 23:23, 17 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Derbyshire seasons[edit]

Hi. Nice to see these articles taking shape: good stuff. When you say that, for instance, 1929 was Derbyshire's thirty-fifth season in the County Championship, are you counting the four First World War years, because strictly they probably ought not to be. Cheers. Johnlp (talk) 23:06, 11 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks - Good point Motmit (talk) 23:14, 11 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Vexatious?[edit]

With all due respect, are you accusing my edits to George Orwell of being vexatious litigation? To regard my edits as only being done in the name of harassment is highly uncivil and breach of assuming good faith. It could certainly be interpreted as doing so. Regards. Sir Richardson (talk) 21:24, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

How else to describe repeatedly reintroducing badly expressed forms of words after other editors have rewritten them? Motmit (talk) 21:40, 29 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I am not a troll. That's all I'm saying. Sir Richardson (talk) 14:39, 1 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Then please stop tinkering with the lead for the article. The article has been developed by editors who know and understand the subject well. Orwell demands respect in the use of language. Your edits almost invariably have to be removed or rewritten. In spite of this you do not get the message and insist on reapplying your original text and making pointless edits apparently for the sake of it Motmit (talk) 16:47, 23 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Certainly not. I have a great admiration and understanding of Orwell's belief in the clarity in language, and am perfectly happy in cooperating with you and others to find resolve in improving the quality of his article. I only make edits in good faith. Quoting myself from Wingspeed's talkpage: I see no redundancy of lack of clarity in "language [linking to vernacular], and lexicon." They are two separate things of which Orwell's terms have become a part of linguistically. To be perfectly frank, without meaning to be uncivil, there's clarity in language, and then there's dumbing it down. And on a minor note, "of the" Spanish civil war seems more grammatically and aesthetically correct than "in the". Regards. Sir Richardson (talk) 07:44, 29 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

1885 redistribution[edit]

Hi. I was using a comparison between the Debrett's Guides to the House of Commons and Judicial Bench, which have the parish breakdowns of constituencies, for 1881 and 1886. 88.211.192.151 (talk) 16:51, 23 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Should be here: http://www.archive.org/details/debrettshouseo1881londuoft - otherwise I will have to find some maps. 88.211.192.151 (talk) 17:04, 23 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]

MarmadukePercy (talk) is wishing you a Merry Christmas! This greeting (and season) promotes WikiLove and hopefully this note has made your day a little better. Spread the WikiLove by wishing another user a Merry Christmas, whether it be someone you have had disagreements with in the past, a good friend, or just some random person. Don't eat yellow snow!

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River Wensum[edit]

Hi. Thanks for reply. Sorry for being late in answering- technical problems.(Northmetpit (talk) 14:24, 28 December 2009 (UTC)).[reply]

Hansard 1803-2005[edit]

Hi Motmit

I have reverted your reversion] of my changes to Sir Charles Hamilton, 1st Baronet, because the Hansard 1803-2005 site is not a reliable source for the periods when someone was an MP.

So far as I can see, http://hansard.millbanksystems.com has accurately reproduced the text of Hansard, but it is an experimental site (see its froint page) and its indexing is flawed. It misses many contributions by MPs, and it list of MPs-by-constituency are wrong in lots of places: see for example http://hansard.millbanksystems.com/constituencies/dorchester , where it omits Henry Sturt, 1st Baron Alington's time as MP from 1847-1852 (see rayment or Craig). Or see discussion at [User talk:BrownHairedGirl#Charles_Gilpin_.28politician.29]]

Having been adding {{Hansard-contribs}} to lots of MPs articles, I have encountered dozens of such glitches in the Hansard site, and in each case Rayment's data matches Craig.

So while I think it's a great idea to have an external link to the Hansard 1803-2005 site to help readers gfind some of that MP's speeches, it is not a reliable source for indicating when someone was an MP, or how many contributions they made in Parliament. It's a work-in-progress, which many flaws. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:36, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I have done the same thing for Emerson Muschamp Bainbridge, and referenced Craig instead.
In that article, you had used the Hansard site as a ref for him losing the seat in 1900, but the lists in that site give no indication as to whether an MP actually contested the election at which they left Parliament. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:55, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The slog of adding Hansard is appreciated. It is a general problem with external databases that they may be under development. Seems reasonable to use HMS is as a reference if it is correct and there is no better. I know Cricket Archive appreciates and responds very promptly to corrections, and perhaps HMS would do the same. If not, it is always helpful to include in Wiki a note and alternative source when there is discrepancy (See Reader Blackton above). At present I am working on constituency redistributions etc which is very incomplete but pretty crucial to understand political developments. In this context it is really informative to know what happened to an MP's constituents after redistribution, or where they came from before, and just blanking out with "Constituency abolished" leaves a black hole. Motmit (talk) 16:13, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
In every case, there is a better reference: Craig if you have a copy, or Leigh Rayment's website if you don't. I don't see any purpose in ever using Hansard 1803-2005 as a reference for someone's time as an MP when Leigh Rayment's site provides more detail and is more accurate (I have cross-checked thousands of Rayment's entries on MPs with Craig, and have found I think only one or two errors). Craig is even better if you have it, because Craig's election results tell whether an MP stood down, was defeated, or whatever, as well as clarifying whether someone was elected at a by-election or general election. I haven't tried contacting them about Millbank Systems about corrections, but there are so many needed that it'll be a big job to sort them out. In the meantime, why not just use the accurate source?
As to what happened to constituencies, I think it's great to record the changes, and your work on expanding the boundaries and history sections of constituency articles is great -- long overdue, and huge plaudits to you for doing that, especially since far too many of those articles had nothing at all on the boundary changes.
However, I think it's a mistake to overload the MP's succession boxes by adding that detail there. The succession boxes link to the constituency article, where (thanks to your good work) the history is set out. Why replicate the data in the succession boxes, especially when so many cases of a constituency being abolished did not involve a straightforwwrd division or renaming? --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:16, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Lets not get too hung up on these MPS - most of these articles get less than 50 hits a month which probably the result of disinterested individuals hitting the random article key - so one could spend an awful lot of effort on them that doesnt amount to a hill of beans. Still, people insist on sticking citation splats on, and for them it's not enough if the information is in an external link or even available in an existing reference. So some sort of ITC is needed and HMS if correct is more valuable than LR (which is misleading on constituency succession). If I had Craig I would use it.
Why bother wth succ boxes at all? Who was the previous MP is usually pretty irrelevant and can be picked up from the constituency article. However who got squeezed out in the musical chairs, for example, is interesting and it is nice not to have to delve and delve to find out.Motmit (talk)
Rayment isn't misleading on succession, it's just laid out differently ... but HMS's indexes are frequently plain wrong. However, as above, I'm not saying don't use HMS, just use it as an external link not a reference.
You may think it's not needed to have a citation, but there's long-standing consensus that they are better. Don't add them if you don't want to, but I don't see why you object to someone else adding them.
Succession boxes exist to show who the predecessors and successors were. That may not interest you, which is fine, but it does interest others, which is why they are such a widespread feature of wikipedia. However they cannot convey who got squeezed out in the musical chairs; that's probably an interesting topic to many people, but it should be addressed in the article where it can be explained properly. Succession boxes cannot show who stood and was defeated and who retired, who was deselected or bought off, which chunks of which old constituency constituted the new seats, or who did a chicken-run to another constituency.
However, if you want to put this info in the succession boxes, please put it in the left or right columns where it belongs, not in the centre column. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:48, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

but

It seems you misunderstand what I mean, so I will give up trying to explain things any more. For the 1885 election I can use Debrett as an ITC; for any other I will use whatever ITC reference backs up the statement. However I think it would be really useful if you could concentrate your efforts on transcribing the election results from Craig into the constituencies while I try to improve the other information. Thanks Motmit (talk) 19:22, 15 January 2010 (UTC
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