User talk:Rachel Helps (BYU)/Archive 7

Edit Request

I appreciate all of your efforts on Wikipedia--you and your team do great work.

I read an article a couple years ago about a female scientist in England writing a wikipedia article a day on a female scientist to improve the number of female-centric articles. I loved the idea and decided to do something similar, but for female members of the Church. I have completed about 25 so far. I was going to reach out and see if you guys wanted to edit or add to any of them. I am pretty good at sourcing, but my editing skills need work.

Here is a sample list:

• Catherine Stokes
• Janis Mars Wunderlich
• Jennifer Reeder (historian)
• Fiona Givens
• Caitlin Connolly
• Bonnie D. Parkin
• Suzanne Fei
• Melissa Wei-Tsing Inouye
• Bonnie H. Cordon
• Alex Warnick
• Rose Datoc Dall
• Laura Harris Hales
• Erin Morley
• Morgan Lyon Cotti
• Cydni Tetro
• Camille N. Johnson

Fullrabb (talk) 13:09, 9 April 2021 (UTC)FullRabb

Hi Fullrabb, I am just now getting back to work and replying to things. I actually had a similar idea--to improve the pages of prominent Mormon women scientists. I ended up not pursuing it after our first 2-3 pages from it, because other editors perceived our writing about current BYU professors as a Conflict of Interest (COI). We have plenty of work to do that is less controversial. I'm happy to look over your work though--are those linked pages ones that you've worked on? Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 17:14, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

Edit Request

User: Makulele I fail to understand the reason for the recent parenthetical (Poet) appended to Jared Carter's entry. The reason given was allegedly popularity in comparison with a second such name. Is popularity ever a factor? Or is someone at BYU trying to promote a deceased Mormon elder? There are, to take one example out of thousands, currently ten different persons named "Couture" who are given Wikipedia pages, and no one seems to have seen fit to parenthetically identify even one of them, by deciding that person is less or more popular than the other nine. The average Wikipedia reader seems to have no trouble in distinguishing these ten different Coutures; why should he or she need parenthetical prompts to distinguish between only two Carters? Those parentheses should be removed. Leave them up for the Mormon Elder if you like. But the other page doesn't need them.00:49, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Hi User:Makulele. I was following the protocol at the editing guideline for disambiguation when neither page is more prominent. When I was trying to evaluate which page was more popular, I looked at pageviews over the last 30 days, and they were about even at the time. The "Couture" pages I assume can be differentiated by first names. There are many pages that could benefit from better disambiguation. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 15:46, 22 July 2021 (UTC)

Matt Page (artist)

I just noticed he has two different birth dates. Surely that is incorrect?

Hi, Thmazing I corrected the one in the infobox to match the one in the text, but looking back at it, I don't think I should use Facebook as a source for his birthday (like I did when I created the page in 2017). The information isn't on his Facebook page anymore that I can see. I managed to find a tweet from BCC about it (here), but I decided to replace it with the authority record from worldcat, which has only the year. Let me know if you find a more reliable source about his birthdate. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 17:06, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

Will do.Thmazing (talk) 22:56, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

I'm back

Hi friends and editors, I am back at work in my old Wikipedian-in-Residence position at BYU's Harold B. Lee Library. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 17:17, 8 June 2021 (UTC)

Hello!

Hello! I was looking at the recent changes because I was bored and I saw your username which actually stood out to me because you had (BYU) on it. If you don't wanna answer this question I have you don't have to but my question is, what exactly do you teach in your class at BYU? I'm only asking because on your user page you said that you had students and it got me curious as to what exactly a Wikipedia class at BYU would teach. Blaze The Wolf | Proud Furry and Wikipedia Editor (talk) 19:42, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Hi, I don't teach a class, but I have student employees who work for me. Right now I only have one student working for me. I have collaborated with BYU professors in the past to help with Wikipedia assignments in the classroom though! I think the biggest project I helped with was when a class worked on the Bakemono no e page. In our special collections, we have a giant scroll of Japanese monsters, or bakemono. One of our Japanese professors, Professor Stoneman, assigned each of his students a bakemono to caption, with the appropriate part of the scroll. It also contains one of the earliest depictions of the nurikabe. Our alumni magazine wrote a piece on it. If you want to know more about how college classes nationwide are using Wikipedia, you can find out more at Wikiedu. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 19:48, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Ah ok that's cool! I'm really only asking because I'm actually interested in going to BYU myself, although I probably won't be doing anything like that. Blaze The Wolf | Proud Furry and Wikipedia Editor (talk) 19:58, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

Let me know if you come to BYU! I could e-mail you when we have an opening. Hardly any of my applicants have previous Wikipedia experience, so it's likely that you'd make it to an interview at least :-). Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 20:18, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

News page

FYI User talk:Rachel Helps (BYU)/News has become so large that the mass message bot can't post any more newsletters there. You might want to consider clearing the page, if you are still using it. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 23:57, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

Oh, I had forgotten all about that page. I'm not sure why it wasn't showing up in my watchlist. Thanks for the notification. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 15:34, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

DYK for Kelmscott Press

On 23 October 2021, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Kelmscott Press, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that in the Kelmscott Press's acclaimed Complete Works of Chaucer, illustrator Burne-Jones depicts a house "made of twigges" in an unusually literal style? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Kelmscott Press. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, Kelmscott Press), and if they received a combined total of at least 416.7 views per hour (i.e., 5,000 views in 12 hours or 10,000 in 24), the hook may be added to the statistics page. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

Cwmhiraeth (talk) 00:03, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

Brandon Dayton afd

Hello! I saw your !vote at the above afd, but then I saw that the article was created by one of your employees, Cstickel(byu), which you did not mention in the AfD (unless I missed it). That is a pretty clear COI. Would you mind replying at the AfD? thanks. --- Possibly ☎ 03:01, 23 October 2021 (UTC)

Question about Mormon apologists

Hi, I noticed that one of the categories listed in the Orson Scott Card is Mormon apologists. I also noticed that Mormon apologists is not included in Category:Latter Day Saint writers but Category:Mormon theologians is. My (limited) understanding is that there is a preference for the designation of "LDS" to the term Mormon especially when referring to the church so I am baffled that it is only the theologians category that uses the word Mormon. My real question, however, is whether the word "apologist" is a word that these people would use to refer to themselves or if it is a label used by others to imply that Mormons have something to apologize for.

Can you help me understand these terms better? Annette Maon (talk) 10:28, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

Hi Annette Maon, "apologetics" is a theological word that just means defending religious beliefs against critics. Mormon and Latter Day Saint both encompass all religions within the Latter Day Saint movement (per MOS:LDS). We could probably change "Mormon theologians" to "Latter Day Saint theologians" with consensus on the category talk page. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 17:42, 3 November 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for helping me understand. The use of the word "defense" both in the link you provided and in your response seems to indicate that it is used primarily when the religious views are under some form of attack (or at least debate). I can understand the wider need for apologists in the early days of the LDS church and even several decades ago the US south. What surprised me is that people still refer to themselves as apologists after Romney's candidacy which may have highlighted some attacks but also underscored the fact that his nomination indicates that such attacks are no longer common enough to derail a candidacy in the US.

When it comes to Orson Scott Card specifically, I have seen him refer to himself as a LDS missionary but have never seen him refer to himself as an apologist. If you know of examples where he did so, I would appreciate a link or at least a lead to where that could be found.

Card stated several times, that he tried to address his writing about religious beliefs to LDS members in LDS publications and that with a few exceptions (like Saints and lost boys which I have not read) he tried to use other religions in his popular fiction. He made it clear that while the homecoming series was inspired by the Book of Mormon, he purposely diverged from it because his goal was to reach a wider audience. To the extent that he was hoping that readers from that wider audience might become more interested in the original, he was acting as a missionary rather than an apologist.

As a follower of his weekly "War watch" column, I can not remember any LDS apologetics in his writings. He mentions his religion but he does not proselytize or apologize for it in those forums. Do you think it is accurate to refer to him as an apologist? Annette Maon (talk) 10:54, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Annette Maon, Mormon apologetics aren't as popular as they once were, but sites like FAIRmormon and others are focused on responding to anti-Mormon critics. There is a fairly active and critical ex-Mormon community. I think a definition from someone else about whether Card's work is "apologetic" (in the sense of religious apologetics) would be more accurate than Card's self-description. In this Sunstone article, Christopher Smith makes a case for Card as an apologist in the "defending Mormonism" sub-heading. I don't think this is mentioned on his Wikipedia page though, so if we want to keep the category, one of us should add it. Do you think that's sufficient to categorize him as an apologist? I think he is better-known for his essays to other Mormons like his essay collection A Storyteller in Zion. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 15:50, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for the link. Card is already belongs to the Mormon apologist category so there is no reason to change anything. Annette Maon (talk) 23:13, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Hi Annette Maon, sorry if I wasn't clear; Wikipedia categories need to have support in the body of the page they categorize. So if someone was in the "born in 1917" category, there should be a mention of that on the person's page (with a source). I just added a sentence using the article I mentioned to make the argument that the Homecoming saga functions as an apologetic work. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 19:00, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

Belated comment: @Annette Maon: There's no inherent negative connotation with the word "apologist". I've heard C.S. Lewis referred to as "the great Christian apologist". Random fact: the opposite of an apologist is a polemicist. ~Awilley (talk) 19:14, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

Help with Ender's Game editions

I understand that the word "niggers" appeared in the original 1985 version of Ender's Game but was removed in later editions. I am trying to collect sources to support the color blind, post-racist views that were reflected in Card's original work and would appreciate your help as a librarian with access to various versions of Card's editions (and manuscripts).

The original version of Ender’s game intentionally used slur words like “slanty-eyed”, “butt-wiggler” and “niggers" in a context that implied a better future in which they are joked about as ancient history.

If Card felt pressure to change Alai from black to Arab, it demonstrates that the Political Correctness agenda is counter productive and reduces the portrayal of positive multi-racial role model characters. Imagine how history might have changed if Uhura had been changed to an Arab role model as a result of politically correct pressures. Can this notable change be sourced and/or documented?

I would be particularly interested in knowing if later versions eliminate the “butt-wiggler” phrase as well.

Hi Annette Maon, based on what readers have reported online, it looks like "butt-wiggler" was retained. Alai could still have had dark skin and been Arabic. Card wrote about why he changed it in this essay. He writes: "the presence of n* was causing readers to break free from the spell of the story. And so it had to be eliminated, for the sake of the purity of the experience of reading [...]" He also mentions changing it to avoid the "prudes" on the right and left banning the book, and that it was a small change that didn't change the theme or his vision for the book. Information about the changes would be relevant under the Revisions section on the Ender's Game page, but I believe it would be too specific to include on Card's main page. By the way, it's customary to sign your name when commenting on talk pages. You can sign your username with an automatic timestamp by using four tildes (the squiggly character above the tab key) like this: ~~~~ Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 18:04, 15 November 2021 (UTC)

Rachel Helps (BYU) I was wondering if as a librarian you might have access to the latest edition to see if it is still there. Considering the shift in public opinion about LGBT, it may be only a matter of time before it gets edited out just like the word "niggers" was.Alai could indeed still have dark skin, but the book no longer specifies that he looks like a plausible descendent of African slaves in America, which is why the movie could cast an Indian actor for the role. Uhura had been recast twice since the original Star Trek series, but always by black actresses. "Thank you for finding the link to Card's Q&A where he explains his reasons for the change. I agree with Card that anti-racism was not a "theme or his vision for" Ender's Game just like racism was not a theme in the "Unlikely Events" article. I wish that the same could be said the Wikipedia article.

Sorry about the missing signature, I can be forgetful sometimes. I wish there was a way to automate the signature or get a warning that my change is unsigned before it is published. There does seem to be a bot that fixes it after the fact but the delay and the extra edit on the History page are annoying. Annette Maon (talk) 12:09, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

You can see that "butt-wiggler" was retained in a Google books search of the latest version of Ender's Game. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 21:03, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

References

Commenting on talk pages

Hi, please don't do this on any talk pages. When you insert your replies within someone else's post, their comments lack a signature and it's very difficult for other editors to follow the discussion. You can quote the editor that you're replying to in order to make your comments clear. Please see WP:INTERPOLATE. Thanks, Schazjmd (talk) 19:13, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

Oops, I didn't realize that was an issue. I thought the indentation would make the author clear. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 19:26, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

Schazjmd Would it be appropriate to save Rachel's resposes as text, revert the edits and then post them back as responses to the numbered items? Or would that be interference with the history of the talk page? Annette Maon (talk) 12:14, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

It's the latest entry in that discussion (nobody else has replied since Rachel), so if Rachel wants to undo her edit and repost the comments properly, that would be okay. Schazjmd (talk) 14:31, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

I moved them down. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 20:47, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

Seaching in archives of War Watch (used to be in ornery.org)

Hi Rachel. I remember reading a War Watch column about using torture many years ago. I think waterboarding was mentioned but I am not sure if it was by OSC or by an ornerian in a forum discussion. War Watch column are gone from Ornery.org. I can find them on waybackmachine but it seems that Google searches no longer return them. Do you know of some archive where such searches can be made? If there are none, would it be possible for BYU library to make such a site available?

Torture it is mentioned as an early use of Somacin OSC's fiction and I think in "Empire" as well. But I am looking for Card's opinion columns specifically. Annette Maon (talk) 07:49, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Hi Annette Maon, I did find a forum post that mentioned waterboarding. I don't know the best way for you to find what you're looking for. I found an index of War Watch columns on archive.org. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 21:00, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

I assume you are aware that hatrack and ornery were different forums when they were still active. If all you found was on hatrack, I am guessing your searches did not return anything from ornery either. Thanks for trying.

Annette Maon (talk) 16:51, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

I didn't know that the ornery.org forums were different. I was able to find them archived, but I'm doubtful that anything there would be helpful in editing Card's page. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 17:27, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Thankyou for your comment on my talk page

I acually put up my talk page notes in hope people will comment on them. So thankyou.John Pack Lambert (talk) 19:01, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for January 11

An automated process has detected that when you recently edited Mormon Trail, you added a link pointing to the disambiguation page William Clayton.

(Opt-out instructions.) --DPL bot (talk) 05:58, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

Precious anniversary

Precious

Six years!

--Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:05, 18 March 2022 (UTC)

DYK for Seventh East Press

On 1 April 2022, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Seventh East Press, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that shoe-mirrors were reportedly banned (example pictured) at Brigham Young University? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Seventh East Press. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, Seventh East Press), and if they received a combined total of at least 416.7 views per hour (i.e., 5,000 views in 12 hours or 10,000 in 24), the hook may be added to the statistics page. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

~ ONUnicorn^{(Talk|Contribs)}problem solving 00:04, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

		Hook update
		Your hook reached 54,637 views (2,276.5 per hour), making it one of the most viewed hooks of April 2022 – nice work!

the automation of this function is in beta testing mode—please let me know if I've screwed up! theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/they) 06:24, 3 April 2022 (UTC)

Good article review for Brandon Sanderson

Want to help get Brandon Sanderson to good article status? I've cleaned up the references a bunch. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 18:59, 1 April 2022 (UTC)

Sure, what do you need help with? Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 21:05, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

If you are up for starting the review, the link is at the top of the talk page. Otherwise, you're welcome to look over things and offer any suggestions for improvements. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 00:45, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

Nihonjoe for pages that I edit, I like to see in-line citations at least at the end of each paragraph. I think this is a common expectation of most GA reviews, but I acknowledge that the GA criteria only require in-line citations for opinions, direct quotes, and contentious information. It's just that without the in-line citations, there isn't a great way to verify the information. I'm seeing a lot of paragraphs ending without an in-line citation--does the in-line citation from the previous paragraph carry over? How do you feel about it? Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 18:05, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

I'll take a look at that. There are a lot of refs in the article, so I may have overlooked that. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 21:10, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Okay, I think I've fixed this concern. Please let me know if there are any others. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 22:37, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

Great! I can start on the formal GA review next week. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 19:24, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

Sounds good. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 19:57, 7 April 2022 (UTC)

Looks like Casliber is doing a review. You are still welcome to contribute to the review as well. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 14:54, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

Edit request

Rosel H Hyde's page says he had 5 children. If you check his obituaries you will see he had 4 children: Rosel, George, William and Mary Lynn. 2601:681:8800:93B0:39BE:2972:C94E:7E59 (talk) 20:26, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for the correction. The original source also said that he had four children and I changed the text to reflect that. Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 16:42, 18 April 2022 (UTC)

Esperanto

You might be interested in this. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 16:36, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Yeah I saw that too! I'm thinking of doing a little editing event with the Utah Esperanto group that I lead. Would you be interested in attending? Rachel Helps (BYU) (talk) 16:38, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Possibly, though I don't know a lick of Esperanto. Let me know when and I'll see if I can fit it into my schedule. ···日本穣 · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe · Join WP Japan! 17:15, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

DYK for James Goldberg

On 22 May 2022, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article James Goldberg, which you recently nominated. The fact was ... that James Goldberg co-founded the Mormon Lit Blitz, an annual writing competition for very short works of Mormon fiction? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/James Goldberg. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, James Goldberg), and if they received a combined total of at least 416.7 views per hour (i.e., 5,000 views in 12 hours or 10,000 in 24), the hook may be added to the statistics page. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

—Kusma (talk) 00:03, 22 May 2022 (UTC)

DYK nomination of The Clingers

Hello! Your submission of The Clingers at the Did You Know nominations page has been reviewed, and some issues with it may need to be clarified. Please review the comment(s) at your nomination's entry and respond there at your earliest convenience. Thank you for contributing to Did You Know! Flibirigit (talk) 22:34, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

DYK for The Clingers

On 11 June 2022, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article The Clingers, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that Melody Clinger of the girl band The Clingers met the drummer for The Beach Boys, Dennis Wilson, after wolf-whistling his Rolls Royce on her way home from a guitar lesson? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/The Clingers. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, The Clingers), and if they received a combined total of at least 416.7 views per hour (i.e., 5,000 views in 12 hours or 10,000 in 24), the hook may be added to the statistics page. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

 — Amakuru (talk) 00:03, 11 June 2022 (UTC)

DYK for Arnold Blackner

On 12 June 2022, Did you know was updated with a fact from the article Arnold Blackner, which you recently created, substantially expanded, or brought to good article status. The fact was ... that Arnold Blackner was said to be the first person to sing over 3,000 miles on the telephone? The nomination discussion and review may be seen at Template:Did you know nominations/Arnold Blackner. You are welcome to check how many pageviews the nominated article or articles got while on the front page (here's how, Arnold Blackner), and if they received a combined total of at least 416.7 views per hour (i.e., 5,000 views in 12 hours or 10,000 in 24), the hook may be added to the statistics page. Finally, if you know of an interesting fact from another recently created article, then please feel free to suggest it on the Did you know talk page.

 — Amakuru (talk) 12:02, 12 June 2022 (UTC)