User talk:Rugbyfan22/Archive 13

Nomination of Jacob Henry (rugby union) for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article Jacob Henry (rugby union) is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Jacob Henry (rugby union) until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

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Sportsfan 1234 (talk) 14:25, 8 August 2022 (UTC)

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Sam Mcqueen

Hi, I was just wondering if you could tell me the source for Sam Mcqueen getting a job as development coach Thanks Wriest (talk) 15:05, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Hi, it's covered in training ground guru, not the most reliable of sources and blocked but usually accurate for this type of information around Southampton's academy, it being blocked is why i've not added to the article, was hoping the local paper would add a source which I could add. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 15:25, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Hennie de Wet

Hi, Thank you for your reply at AfD. I came across another cricketer (see section title) through WP:O. I redirected to list but wanted to double check with someone else. Would you mind taking a quick look please? Carver1889 (talk) 17:40, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Yeah the page it's been redirected too is a perfectly suitable redirect option. He's played a fair few number of games though, so there may be something out there, but coverage of SA players at that time is difficult to find due to the lack of newspaper archives and Afrikaans coverage. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 18:43, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Old/Inaccurate information on Sharks Rugby pages.

I understand you enjoy editing rugby pages, and I appreciate the work you do on the transfer pages etc.

However you recently reverted the Sharks (Currie Cup) page back to completely inaccurate information.

A list: -Reverted the current season from 2022 back to 2019. -Reverted the current stadium sponsor back to the old one, as well as inaccurate capacity. -Reverted and removed the current named captain of the side. -Reverted back to an inaccurate squad list from the pervious season. -Reverted back to inaccurate attendance information that still referenced SuperRugby.

I can understand your wanting to provide accurate, source squad information, however there is no official 2022 squad list, and the squad list provided on the wiki is wildly different from the official 2021 squad list on the Sharks site. The current Currie Cup squad is a mixture of the 2021 list and the URC squad list. Several players listed on Currie Cup wiki have not been part of the squad for years and don't feature in any official squad lists including the source you've been using.

All I want is to see accurate information provided.

Thanks. Die Revenant (talk) 12:00, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Oh and to add to this. I do not understand keeping players that are actively playing for other teams in the squad.

Ruan Pienaar joined the Sharks on loan, this is easily verifiable. He was never going to be part of the Sharks squad for the whole season. Keeping him listed in the Sharks squad while he plays for the Cheetahs is silly.

The same goes for Nohamba who will play for the Lions this weekend. Why should he be listed in the Sharks squad after both teams have confirmed his move and the Lions have picked him to play?

This applies to other players as well. For instance Lucky Dlepu who has already moved to and played for the Pumas this season. Die Revenant (talk) 12:08, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

@Die Revenant:, both Sharks sides name squads, in which these players have been listed at some point in the season per reference, so should still be listed in the squads. It appears some of the players in the Currie Cup squad are no longer listed, so I will go through them and remove those that are no longer listed, but for the URC team, those players you mentioned should be included. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 17:41, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

@Rugbyfan22 Seems counter intuitive to have players actively playing in other teams still listed in the squad. Especially loan players who have returned to their original teams. If you want to adhere to your own strict guidelines then signees like Gertse and Fleurs shouldn't be added either as they don't appear in the original squad announcements.

You have to allow some flexibility or you're providing inaccurate information and creating confusion. Players move around during the season, there has to be a way to keep squad lists upto date.

Ruan Pienaar at this very minute is playing for the Cheetahs, however if someone had to check he'd be listed in the Sharks squad. That will simply confuse people. Die Revenant (talk) 17:58, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

@Die Revenant:, Pienaar/Nohamba/Dlepu are listed as in the/a Sharks team in the sources provided for the 2021/22 season, Gertse and Fleurs are listed in a source for the CC side for the 2022 season. Pienaar is now playing for the FS Cheetahs CC side, but was playing for the Sharks URC side earlier in the season. The information is verifiable in the sourcing, whereas removing them because they aren't currently playing for the side would be own research. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 18:06, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

The Cheetahs only currently compete in the Currie Cup, that is their 'main' side. When players are contracted they are contracted to a union. If a player switches union, that applies to Currie Cup and franchise teams. For example Nohamba is currently on the bench for the Lions Currie Cup game against the Cheetahs, but he will also be available for Lions URC selection going forward. I'd understand if a transfer is announced and a player will join for the next season, but that's not the case here.

"whereas removing them because they aren't currently playing for the side would be own research."

I disagree with that. The whole point is to provide an accurate up to date squad list. If someone wants an old squad list they can just look up the same announcements you're using for sourcing. One of the biggest benefits of Wikipedia is providing up to date information.

All of the transfers are verifiable as there are official announcements for all of them besides Lucky Dlepu. The fact that Pienaar joined the Sharks on loan is also verifiable and the fact that he returned to the Cheetahs is verifiable. Die Revenant (talk) 18:20, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Previous consensus for these sides that announce squads has been not to remove any players included in those squads until a new squad is announced. Wikipedia relies on sourced information. All information should be sourced. If you wanted to remove a player who is sourced in a squad, you need to note it providing a source for this. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 18:40, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

What context was that consensus reached? Can you provide me a talk page on this? As I stated if a player is listed to join for the next season this approach makes sense, it does not make sense for players who are transfered mid-season. Perhaps mid-season transfers are more common in South African rugby, but they surely have to be accounted for.

An alternative to listing and sourcing each transfer on the squad page, you simply provide a link to that seasons transfer page. Allowing anyone who is interested to click through and see all transfers made, while also allowing you to keep squad lists upto date and not listing players who are turning out for other teams. Die Revenant (talk) 18:57, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

It's been standard since I've been editing rugby union pages, I think you're right on the mid-season transfers with contracts ending in random months after the change in SA rugby season. There's been consensus not to list transfers on squad pages and have list pages for them instead (see List of 2021–22United Rugby Championship transfers for example). I'm happy for notes to be added to players who've departed (perhaps stating Said player departed for the Lions in May 2022 with a reference stating it). Rugbyfan22 (talk) 19:01, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Okay I think that works, I'm happy to add notes for mid-season transfers and leave them listed in the squad. Die Revenant (talk) 19:08, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Just make sure there's a reliable source alongside them, for Dlepu using the Pumas squad from the CC is probably acceptable. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 19:14, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Have added sourced notes as discussed, hopefully formating is all correct. Die Revenant (talk) 19:52, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Have re-tweaked the format slightly, but fine with me. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 20:10, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

Hey mate, realised I can't @ you there, but I've created a talk thread over on the Sharks (rugby union) page re the logo. If you wouldn't mind checking in when you can. Die Revenant (talk) 07:01, 7 October 2022 (UTC)

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Tahuriorangi signing Highlanders

Hi @Rugbyfan22, you just changed my edit re: Te Toiroa Tahuriorangi, saying his signing is not short-term. I don't think that's correct as he's only brought into the Highlanders squad as cover for Folau Fakatava, who's rehab is expected to last 10-12 week. Fakatava is expected to play during the 2023 Super Rugby Pacific season. The Highlanders' media release literally says "To complete the Highlanders halfback stocks Head Coach Clarke Dermody has brought in former All Black halfback, Te Toiroa Tahuriorangi, as cover for Fakatava." So Tahuriorangi's signing is short-term and should be indicated as such, in my opinion. Ruggalicious (talk) 20:11, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

Previously when players have been signed before the season has begun, we haven't used the short-term moniker for signings, hence me removing it, but I'm easy on it being included or not. It's probably likely that Tahuriorangi will be around for the majority of the season covering for other injuries anyway. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 20:14, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

Okay. I guess we can always add it at the end of the season, if he hasn't stayed with the squad for the full season. It just seems a bit odd not to add "short-term" if a signing is expected to be temporary. Ruggalicious (talk) 20:19, 9 November 2022 (UTC)

RugbyMedia2022

Hey there!

Just wanted to make sure you had the user RugbyMedia2022 handled, because it seems to be one of those situations where the person is either telling the truth or they are impersonating a company/agent from a company. Best, Zekerocks11 (talk) 18:21, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

Hi there, I have taken the situation to COI for now as I feel this is the best place for it, as it's not really vandalism, just removing the lesser teams, or teams he didn't perform well for from the statistical base. If you think there's another suitable location for discussion let me know. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 18:23, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

COI is likely the best place for it; I noticed on there you mentioned editing under IP's. Could you point that out to me purely out of my curiosity? Thanks, Zekerocks11 (talk) 18:26, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

Looking at editing history. I think that 105.184.196.141, 105.227.118.10, 84.67.60.238 and 105.186.252.163 are likely the same person/people along with the other user User:RugbyWorld given they've exclusively edited the article on the player and nothing else, and removed/changed similar information. Thanks. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 18:34, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

Looking at IP's, 84.67.60.238 seems to me to be unrelated, I am making that decision based on the ISP being Vodafone, but the other 3 are obviously sockpuppets of somebody. I don't have access to CheckUser to see RugbyWorld's IP or RugbyMedia2022's IP, but it's obvious to me that all of these accounts are most likely sockpuppets.

Have you reported this to sockpuppeting yet? If not, I can do it for you if you would like. Best, Zekerocks11 (talk) 18:50, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

I have not reported to sockpuppets as I mainly hadn't thought to do so, although their only era of interest seems to be this article. If you could report that would be great. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 18:55, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

No problem, I will get on that now! Zekerocks11 (talk) 19:00, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for your help with this. It's much appreciated. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 19:04, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

Any day friend. Zekerocks11 (talk) 19:07, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

Sorry boys, was just editing a mates wiki page. Didn't mean to cause harm or offend you. RugbyMedia2022 (talk) 20:29, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

Didn't think the teams he was loaned to were relevant (ie:wasn't contracted to) and he made 22 apps for SF not 20. RugbyMedia2022 (talk) 20:31, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

Do you have a source for the Stade appearances. Itsrugby (a French site) states just 20. If you can add a source stating 22 then happy to change. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 20:33, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

Unfortunately I don't right now, but I will find one for you. Itsrugby is not always accurate (If players come on as blood replacements/HIAs etc) it's not always recorded. And why is it relevant showing loan clubs/clubs he wasn't contracted to? RugbyMedia2022 (talk) 20:45, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

It's common practice to include all professional appearances when they are listed in a source. It's not suitable to cherry pick appearances for players in these situations. Wikipedia should be as accurate as possible from sourced information, and not including these appearances would be editing from a non-neutral point of view. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 20:51, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

Understood RugbyMedia2022 (talk) 20:53, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

No, I'm sorry, but I am going to be bring this back to light here. "Sorry boys, I was just editing a mates wiki page"? You stated that you were an Agent of Rugby Media and that you had a Conflict of Interest stating that you wanted the article removed in its entirety. Can you please elaborate on that. I would like to hear what you have to say about that. Zekerocks11 (talk) 20:55, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

I never said I was an Agent of Rugby Media and I never wanted any article removed in it's entirety. That may have been an error/oversight if that had happened. He's a mate and have repped him in the past. RugbyMedia2022 (talk) 21:00, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

This: [1] is not an error/oversight. It is a blatant claim that you are an Agent of Rugby Media and that you wanted the article removed. If the person in the article has a connection to you, then if anything, I would want to see proof of such a connection. You are not obligated to do that, of course.

If this was an "error/oversight" then I want to hear why you claimed to be that, because "I never said that' is not a valid excuse in this instance. Zekerocks11 (talk) 21:10, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

@Rugbyfan22 do you have any input on this? Zekerocks11 (talk) 21:29, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

Obviously there is a clear COI here, and the editor should refrain from editing on this page due to his close connection with the subject, and on any other page with whom he has a close connection with, unless done in a neutral way, which it's currently not. I'm not sure his comment suggests he wants the article removed, more some of these teams listed that he has played for (the lesser often 2nd division teams) removed, that's my reading anyway. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 09:41, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

Sockpuppetry was confirmed for the two accounts btw, just thought I would let you know. Likely they're all related Zekerocks11 (talk) 18:11, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

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Queensland Reds page

Hi @Rugbyfan22, Just to let you know that your latest change to this page (relating to the "current squad"), i.e. reverting my most recent edit, actually has the effect of placing a lot of notes at the bottom of the squad table that don't belong there. That was exactly the reason for my most recent edit. My most recent edit is also consistent with previous versions of the page. If you have a better solution for getting rid of irrelevant footnotes at the bottom of the squad list, fine, but if not, can you please undo your most recent revert? Cheers, Ruggalicious (talk) 20:50, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

Apologies, didn't realise it was your edit, I was just wondering why the note wasn't in the squad box. I've found a solution for this particular page that I think works. Thanks. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 21:02, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

Thank you, that did the trick. It's a pity that using the efn and efn-la templates on the same page doesn't result in separate note lists, but this solution works. Ruggalicious (talk) 21:35, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

Infobox discussion and potential alterations

The Infobox rugby biography is being debated as to whether modifications are necessary. Some modifications include renaming the "National team(s)" heading to a more inclusive and alternative term such as "Representative teams" or "Representative career". Further discussions include the inclusion of other notable sides in the National team(s) section of the infobox, such as the British & Irish Lions, Māori All Blacks, Emerging Springboks, Barbarian F.C. and so forth.

You are welcome to participate in these debates, which will continue at National team(s) name change and Inclusion of second international teams until a consensus is established. Kidsoljah (talk) 20:23, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Infobox ideas and changes

In light of recent debate on modifications to Template:Infobox rugby biography, I've expanded it to include other issues that demand attention. As you frequently contribute to rugby union articles, please feel free to respond with your suggestions for improving the most recent discussion on the templates talk page. Kidsoljah (talk) 18:58, 6 April 2023 (UTC)

Removal of cited content at List of 2023–24 United Rugby Championship transfers

You, another editor, and an anonymous IP address have three times removed cited information I added to List of 2023–24 United Rugby Championship transfers. You are the only one who gave a reason (apparently it was "incorrectly formatted"). Perhaps you think it is compulsory to use citation templates. It is not: see WP:CITECONSENSUS. An incorrectly formatted citation is not reason for removal of cited information, and doing so is disruptive editing. I suggest you restore it. Nicknack009 (talk) 15:53, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

Proposed deletion of Maclean Jones

The article Maclean Jones has been proposed for deletion because it appears to have no references. Under Wikipedia policy, this biography of a living person will be deleted after seven days unless it has at least one reference to a reliable source that directly supports material in the article.

If you created the article, please don't be offended. Instead, consider improving the article. For help on inserting references, see Referencing for beginners, or ask at the help desk. Once you have provided at least one reliable source, you may remove the {{prod blp/dated}} tag. Please do not remove the tag unless the article is sourced. If you cannot provide such a source within seven days, the article may be deleted, but you can request that it be undeleted when you are ready to add one. Dr vulpes ^{(💬 • 📝)} 22:03, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

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Super Rugby team names

HI @Rugbyfan22, I'd just like to alert you to an editor making widespread changes to pages and templates. The change is from "Brumbies" to "ACT Brumbies". The changes seem to have already broken a few internal links on older Super Rugby pages. While the Brumbies do put "ACT" in front of their team name themselves, I have my reservations about this change and I'm not sure whether there have been discussions about this in the past. This editor seem to follow a personal preference, because they haven't made similar changes to the names of the Reds and Waratahs, for example. The broken links are a concern. May I leave this issue to you to sort out (if it need sorting out with that editor)? I have no memory of discussion of the team names history and reasons for their current use. Thanks, Ruggalicious (talk) 23:21, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

I have reverted for now (Primefac had already done a partial revision citing the same thing you had). ACT Brumbies are the official team name now, and it is used in some official sourcing, however I'm not sure that it's the common name still currently. Majority of sources from this season are still referring to them as just the Brumbies. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 09:10, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

This might be a dumb question, but if {{rut|Brumbies}} and {{rut|ACT Brumbies}} return the same value (i.e. Brumbies), who cares? Primefac (talk) 09:14, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

I think the issue was that the editor had just added ACT infront of the already in use template. As far as I'm aware that would have thrown out all of the hundreds of articles that use Rut Brumbies. A new entry should have been added instead. Discussion over what the team should be listed as is more than welcome (and as Ruggalicious states a number of sources also refer to the Waratahs as the NSW Waratahs). The change certainly shouldn't have been made to the 2022 page though, as the team reverted back to ACT Brumbies at the start of 2023. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 09:21, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Ah, right, I misunderstood, you want the two to have different outcomes... given that one is a redirect to the other, though, I guess I don't really get it, but I guess that's why we need to discuss! (*wink wink nudge nudge*maybe start a discussion at the template talk?) Primefac (talk) 11:57, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Edits of 2023 Super Rugby Pacific season page (kick-off times format)

Hi @Rugbyfan22, Can you, please, have a look at the most recent edit by an editor named MarioBayo of the 2023 Super Rugby Pacific season article, including those relating to kick-off times of the finals? We've always used GMT times, I assume because it's an international competition, but this editor has changed it to NZT and AEST. I had undone these changes earlier today, but that editor has reverted that without giving a reason. This is the same editor who tried to change the name of the Brumbies to ACT Brumbies without prior discussion. I don't want to start an edit war, so I'd rather ask another editor to have a look at it and respond to it as needed. Thanks, Ruggalicious (talk) 12:04, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

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Redlinking

Hello, looking for some clarification on when to / not to redlink rugby players in squads/squad templates. I’ve done it for a few in the Scarlets pages and had them removed, but see them elsewhere, such as Litterick for Cardiff. Just unsure exactly when it’s appropriate and when to avoid it. Figured you’d know! RodneyParadeWanderer (talk) 11:00, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

I tend to red link players that have played a fixture that would have qualified them under WP:NRU and therefore likely qualifies them for GNG coverage. Obviously those that haven't played won't have much written about them (other than signing announcements) as so I tend to unlink those ones. It's not a perfect solution, but in my view would encourage article creation on players likely to pass GNG, rather than those who would not (at that stage). Rugbyfan22 (talk) 19:04, 4 July 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for guidance, much appreciated. GNG for rugby is tricky these days, seems to be a little subjective at times so I’ve held off on new articles for the most part.

RodneyParadeWanderer (talk) 00:01, 5 July 2023 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:Manchester Originals logo.png

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Orphaned non-free image File:Oval Invincibles logo.png

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Thanks for uploading File:Oval Invincibles logo.png. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

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Nomination for deletion of Template:2023 Super Rugby standings

Template:2023 Super Rugby standings has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the entry on the Templates for discussion page. Gonnym (talk) 08:27, 26 July 2023 (UTC)

NPC squads - non-squad members in matchday line-ups

Hi Rugbyfan22, I've noticed that you have been adding players to NPC squads, who were not included in the squads that were initially named, but were named in matchday line-ups. You've added the abbreviation "REP", which means replacement player. I have a problem with the abbreviation, because many of these players aren't replacing anyone and aren't added to the squads. Most of them just appear on the team list once or twice, for example in the stormweek. The latest example is Hisamitsu Shimada, who you've added to the Hawke's Bay NPC squad. Shimada was named earlier in the season in the Hawke's Bay's Development squad. He was named on the bench for the week 3 game, but never played. He has not been added to the NPC squad and isn't replacing anyone. Can you please use another abbreviation? I'm thinking of "ST" for short-term player, or maybe "SUP" for supplementary player (the first has my preference). The question is also whether a player who hasn't played (despite being named on the team sheet) has to be mentioned at all. Ruggalicious (talk) 09:57, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

Not sure why ^REP began being used, but I've just been going on past precedent. I would have no issue to ^ST being used instead, as long as it's rolled out for all the teams. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 10:01, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm not even convinced these players have to be added at all. I can't remember that that was done in previous years, unless they really became squad members. Ruggalicious (talk) 10:05, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

They've always tended to have been added to the squads, some teams basically name squads and then pick completely different teams from what I've seen, plus others sometimes go on to play every game. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 10:37, 20 August 2023 (UTC)