Wikipedia:Help desk/Archives/2021 December 7

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December 7

Getting some unbiased opinions...

I'm looking to possibly get some unbiased opinions on a difficult question regarding a BLP article.

The place which seems ideal is Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment/Biographies. Unfortunately, it seems almost dead for a lack of any activity.

Is there somewhere else that's more lively, where the questions is more likely to get responses?

-- Bob drobbs (talk) 06:02, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Bob drobbs The page you link to is more of a collated list of discussions rather than a discussion forum itself. If you use the article talk page to create a discussion and mark it as a formal Request for Comment, it should get some outside attention. 331dot (talk) 08:28, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

You are also welcome to ask your question here, although this is not really the place to seek a consensus related to an article. 331dot (talk) 08:29, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

NEVERMIND and thank you. I thought that page was the totality of the discussion, not the index to them. *sigh* -- Bob drobbs (talk) 08:35, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Requests for donations.

I love Wikipedia. My husband has donated a couple of times. $50 once, but I’m not sure how much the second time. I don’t like the pressure to donate when we have done so. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.253.10.120 (talk) 06:53, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Hi there! If you want to turn off donation messages, go to preferences, then go to banners, then unselect Fundraising from the list. It should not give you any more donation banners.Pyramids09 (talk) 07:13, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

The above can be done after creating an account. IP addresses don't get this luxury. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 08:11, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

• Wikipedia has no way to know that the person sitting at your computer/holding your device at any given moment has seen a donation request or donated. As noted, if you create an account, you can turn off the donation banners in the account preferences. 331dot (talk) 08:12, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Before donating again, you might want to read Wikimedia_Foundation#Finances.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 09:38, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

sfn and cites

Hi Folks!! Is there anyway to stop a block of text being conidered part of the reference system. The example is from Joseph Lister publications. I would like to put a cite for paper in this section, but I woud also like to reference to a specific page on that cite. I would have a copy of the cited paper in Bibliography section. That way folk could get access to papers if they want, and that specific sentence in Joseph Lister#Physiological experiments that i'm working on would get a reference with page number of the paper in bibliography section. Eventually that publication section will have its own article, as offline folks have stated there is enough for the experiments in one article but that is a couple of years away anyway. I could work around it, but that would leave an empty section there in the publications and I would have to introduce every paper in the article and I know the readers are already mentioning these papers in other areas, which came across by accident. Thanks. scope_creep^Talk 10:33, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Are you asking: how to prevent {{sfn}} from linking to cs1|2 templates in Joseph Lister § Publications? If that is the question, then set |ref=none in each of the cs1|2 templates in that section. If that is not what you are asking, can you restate the question more succinctly?

As an aside, why is a work by Pasteur included in the list of Lister's publications?

—Trappist the monk (talk) 12:37, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

@Trappist the monk: I think that is it. Regarding 2nd question. It was the one paper that kicked everthing off, but it needs moved some other section. Yip that is definently it. I wished I'd asked earlier, like five years ago. Thanks!! scope_creep^Talk 15:33, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

How to make userboxes

Hi and hello, i am fairly new to Wiki, how to make userboxes? I've seen them in other user pages. Please help me.--Moon twitt (talk) 11:11, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

See WP:USERBOX. 331dot (talk) 11:15, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Thanks!--Moon twitt (talk) 11:47, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Donations to Wikipedia

I do not use wikipedia much at all perhaps half a dozen times since 2008 but i did find the information on automobiles very good but unfortunately I'm a Canadian citizen 58 yrs of age and as my life went sour because of being half indigenous i was injured and the government will not give me identification or disability after being a victim of crime during a home invasion where i was shot twice with a twelve gauge shotgun point blank and there are many places i would like to help out you or peoples and i have no means to send money and lately i have been told that upon trying to cash my government basic income check that they have no money for people like myself while i watch others in the line ups at the money mart cheque cashing franchises have no problems getting their money . I filed human rights complaints but the government just says there are going to be many delays in the many processes in regards to my complaints . Soon this country is going to be brought to its knees along with the rest North America I promise you .Why you may ask? Because it has to be laid waste for the genocide and the living by the sword for too long ! It is ground zero here just wait and see it happen . My sources are the real deal never been wrong yet. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.69.166.51 (talk) 11:20, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

• You should not donate to Wikipedia if you do not have the financial means to do so comfortably. If you want to hide the donation banners, you could create an account, then go to that section of your preferences and untick the appropriate box.

I do not think anyone of us can help with the rest of your post. Tigraan^{Click here for my talk page ("private" contact)} 12:27, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Maybe a change.org petition? Canada is messed up when it comes to the indigenous peoples. Explodicator7331 (talk) 16:14, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

• If you are not being given government benefits to which you are entitled, you should contact a legal professional. We cannot give legal or medical advice. 331dot (talk) 16:26, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Adding Vaz

I created this page about the band Vaz but I am unable to make the draft become a live page. How do I do this? Thanks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by WillyWP67 (talk • contribs) 16:50, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

 Courtesy link: Draft:Vaz (band)   Maproom (talk) 17:40, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Hi, WillyWP67, please see WP:DRAFT for more information about the publishing process for new articles. As you are a new editor, you will have to request for the draft to be moved to the article mainspace for it to become a live page. You may wish to work on the article more and have it reviewed, however, as this generally helps with the quality of the article. I would also suggest that you take a look at WP:YFA for more information about how to get your first article started up. Tamptonato (talk) 17:46, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

@WillyWP67: As it stands, the draft is not near to being ready for mainspace. In addition to WP:YFA you should also review the musical notability guidelines as well as the general notabilty guidelines and the manual of style, together with WP:REFB for guides to correctly adding citations. Also, WP:RS for what constitutes a reliable source. If the draft were to be submitted now it would be declined as it stands. It may be an idea to seek out articles on similar topics and look at how they are laid out and structured. Eagleash (talk) 17:59, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

@WillyWP67: At first glance, your band is not notable by our definition. Before you do any more work on this article, I urge you to find references that support a claim of notability that will convince most reviewers. Otherwise your work will be wasted, because the article will not be accepted no matter how excellent it otherwise is. See WP:AMOUNT. -Arch dude (talk) 18:39, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

@WillyWP67: In the early days of Wikipedia, new band pages were so commonly deleted that a humorous but brutal essay was written. See Wikipedia:No one cares about your garage band. -Arch dude (talk) 18:49, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

@archdude @Theroadislong‬ How is Pitchfork, Discogs, Last FM, Free Music Archive, and All Music not references that support a claim of notability? These are all major players in independent music. — Preceding unsigned comment added by WillyWP67 (talk • contribs) 19:44, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

@WillyWP67: Some of those sites run heavily on user-generated content, which makes it hard to abide by Wikipedia's verifiability policy. You can see the rationales behind considering sources like Discogs, AllMusic, and Last.fm being unreliable at perennial reliable sources list. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 20:05, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Miss Universe 2021

I added sourced content to the page and it was reverted by 2 different editors. I posted to the talk page of both editors as well as the talk page of the page - no response by either of them. Frustrated, I reverted, their reversion and one posted on my talk page that I was making disruptive edits. I've got no interest in fighting so I'm coming here looking for guidance. If the content is sourced, doesn't it have a place on the page? How can they remove it and that's fine but when I put it back, it's disruptive? MaskedSinger (talk) 19:19, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

The place to discuss this is the talk page; and, MaskedSinger, you were right to start a discussion there. Let's hope that Milesq and Jjj1238 respond there, so that you can have a real discussion. (I have no opinion on the inserted/deleted material. But I am surprised to realize that "Miss Universe" has continued into the 21st century.) -- Hoary (talk) 23:23, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Thanks @Hoary:. It's very uncomfortable to be bullied. What if they don't respond? MaskedSinger (talk) 04:55, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

@Hoary: MaskedSinger has continued to add irrelevant, under-sourced content into a "Controversies" section that only he himself has contributed to, and which has been removed by both myself and Milesq as it is giving undue weight to a non-controversy about a girl who made an Instagram post. MaskedSinger left one message on my talk page about this, where he focused on making threats regarding administrator intervention rather than actual discussion on the topic, and left less than one day for either of us to respond on the article talk page (where we were not pinged) before re-adding his edit without consensus. I do not believe this adheres to BOLD, revert, discuss, and MaskedSinger should read up on maintaining civility with other editors and edit warring before making allegations of bullying. { [ ( jjj 1238 ) ] } 09:19, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

@Jjj1238: It has nothing do with the undue weight. And I fail to see how it's irrelevant. She made claims as the supposed person representing Greece at Miss Universe 2021. This made the news. It's sourced. It's completely disingenuous for you to bring up BOLD, revert, discuss when you've shown zero interest in discussing. You reverted the edit without writing anything or mine or the page's talk page. So if you want civility let's be civil :) MaskedSinger (talk) 18:16, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

@MaskedSinger: Just because something can be sourced doesn't mean that it automatically gets to go into an article, wikipedia articles should represent the mainstream consensus as represented by reliable sources, see policies like WP:Due weight, more specifically the WP:MINORASPECT section. When writing about living people you also need to be aware of the WP:BLP policies, which require you to use top quality sourcing. The statement you added to an article where you describe a living person as "a fraud" comes from Israellycool, which on it's about page describes itself as a blog run by an Israeli advocacy organisation - this almost certainly isn't a suitable source for contentious statements about a living person. If an edit you make is reverted it is your job to get consensus for it's inclusion through talk page discussion and/or the various WP:Dispute resolution processes. When you start a discussion about a contested edits you should ping or notify the involved editors so that they know that the discussion exists, and you should allow reasonable time for them to respond, you should be thinking in terms of days, not hours. Continuously reverting edits back into an article after they have been contested is called WP:edit warring and is viewed as disruptive behaviour that can lead to blocks. I also fail to see anything remotley approaching "bullying" here - you made an edit, someone disagreed with it and reverted, now you need to discuss and reach a consensus - this is a completely normal part of the editorial process and you should expect it to happen a lot if you edit here. Hope this helps, 192.76.8.80 (talk) 10:51, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

@192.76.8.80: Thanks for your insight. Ok so maybe the language wasn't concise but that doesn't erase the fact that this thing happened and was covered by notable independent news outlets. If you want to add it to the page in a more appropriate way - by all means please do. What you say about the dispute process is nice if it happens but that's not what happened here - they reverted my edit, ignored the talk page and then accused me of disruptive behavior. It's not their page alone - they don't get to unilaterally decide what is or isn't on the page but that's what's happening here. MaskedSinger (talk) 17:21, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

How to change a page title when it wrongfully describe someone

Hi, Someone created the page Alexander Ellice with a wrongful name : Alexander Ellice (slave trader) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alexander_Ellice_(slave_trader)

I've researched for a real estate project name the history of this person, and nowhere it says he was a salve trader.

I've modified the page, include some reliable sources, but I still can't edit the page name and remove the "Slave Trader" can you help me ?

Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by Anne-Laure1984QC (talk • contribs) 19:51, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

You replaced the article with a bunch of text that was copied from one of the sources - that is not permitted by our copyright policy, see WP:COPYVIO for more on this. Anything you add to an article needs to be written in your own words. With regards to whether or not the article is properly titled, you could raise that question that at its talk page, Talk:Alexander Ellice (slave trader). The original author, User:Leutha, may be interested in discussing it with you. Best Girth Summit _(blether) 20:01, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

I can't find anything linking him with the slave trade except one entry in the Centre for the Study of the Legacies of British Slavery, which doesn't mention any slave connection either. I moved him to Alexander Ellice (fur trader) and will be correcting and expanding his article. Clarityfiend (talk) 23:15, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

One source does mention that he engaged in the triangular trade, which most likely means he shipped slaves, but that wasn't his main business. Clarityfiend (talk) 00:15, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

How to have threaded conversation like what we are are doing right from within an article? Preferably at the bottom of the page? Thank you

How to have threaded conversation like what we are doing right from within an Wikipedia article? Preferably at the bottom of the page? Thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pcll2000 (talk • contribs) 20:13, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

@Pcll2000: I'm not sure why you would want to do that. Conversations about how the article could be improved should go on the associated talk page. —Tenryuu 🐲 ( 💬 • 📝 ) 20:20, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

@Pcll2000: You don't. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a forum: see WP:NOT. Wikipedia article pages are written as encyclopedia articles. Article talk pages are used to discuss improvements to the article. There is no place on Wikipedia that is 9ntended to be used as a forum about the subject of any Wikipedia article. -Arch dude (talk) 22:01, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Removing a field in a template; impacts?

I am not a frequent editor of templates, in large part because prior to becoming an administrator I was locked out of editing most templates. I usually had to ask someone else to do it for me. Now having the privilege, but not the knowledge, I have a question. If I remove a field from a template and that field is in use on some of the articles where the template is in use, what impact will that have? Will the field display an error message or will it simply quietly suppress it? --Hammersoft (talk) 21:52, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Usually it will be quietly suppressed. Some templates have unknown parameter checking (look for something like #invoke:Check for unknown parameters|check near the bottom of the template), in which case removing a parameter result in a warning when you preview an article still using the parameter). I can't go into more detail about what exactly will happen without knowing which parameter(s) are being removed from which template(s). * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 22:13, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Pppery, thanks for the response. I'm looking at Template:Infobox school district. A 2018 RFC deprecated the the use of subordinate administrators in school districts, such as deputy/assistant superintendents. In the template, there is a field for "deputy_superintendent" which I am considering removing. But, again, I don't want to remove it without understanding the impacts before doing so. --Hammersoft (talk) 22:50, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

There's a separate |asst_superintendent= parameter. Do you want to remove that as well? The technical details of removing both parameters would be: remove

|label13  = {{#if:{{{deputy_superintendent|}}}{{{deputy_superintendents|}}}|Deputy|{{abbr|Asst.|Assistant}}}} superintendent(s)
|data13   = {{if empty|{{{deputy_superintendent|}}}|{{{deputy_superintendents|}}}|{{{asst_superintendent|}}}|{{{asst_superintendents|}}}}}

and remove | asst_superintendent | asst_superintendents and deputy_superintendent | deputy_superintendents. This template does use unknown parameter checking, so the result is that all articles currently displaying a Deputy or Asst. superintendent field would no longer display it, would be placed in Category:Pages using infobox school district with unsupported parameters, and a warning (pointing out the now-unsupported parameters) would appear when you previewed an edit to such a page. * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 23:01, 7 December 2021 (UTC)