Wikipedia:No original research/Noticeboard

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This page is for requesting input on possible original research. Ask for advice here regarding material that might be original research or original synthesis. Include links to the relevant article(s). Make an attempt to familiarize yourself with the no original research policy before reporting issues here. You can also post here if you are unsure whether the content is considered original research. Sections older than 28 days archived by MiszaBot II. (For help, see Wikipedia:Purge) If you mention specific editors, please notify them. You may use {{subst:NORN-notice}} to do so.
Additional notes: "Original research" includes unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position. Such content is prohibited on Wikipedia. For volunteers wishing to mark a discussion resolved, use {{Resolved|Your reason here ~~~~}} at the top of the section.
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Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction) and Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (EK faction)

Spworld2 has added 1989 as the year of formation in Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction) citing a source that does not say about the year of year of formation of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction), while Spworld2 added 1926 as the year of formation of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (EK faction). Is this original research?. Having nothing to discuss Spworld2 resort to the use of the WP:CONFLICT which Spworld2 clearly has since Spworld2 is not ready to produce the sources for Spworld2's claim, which is also EK Samastha's claim of being itself the original or real Samastha. Neutralhappy (talk) 08:53, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

The source Spworld2 used to say the formation of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction) was in 1989, in the infobox, is this one. This source does not say about the formation of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction), rather the split of Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama in 1989. So kindly remove it from the infobox. Neutralhappy (talk) 09:04, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

I have informed Spworld2 about this discussion. Neutralhappy (talk) 09:09, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

a discussion going on - Wikipedia:Neutral_point_of_view/Noticeboard#Samastha_Kerala_Jem-iyyathul_Ulama_(AP_faction)_&_Samastha_Kerala_Jem-iyyathul_Ulama_(EK_faction) Spworld2 (talk) 11:02, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

Asking about the same dispute on two noticeboards is not helpful.

That said… I don’t see an Original Research issue here. BOTH of the modern organizations claim to be the “true” continuation of the original. There are plenty of sources that note that this is the case. There are also sources that support the claims of one or the other. What I am getting at is this: none of the “foundation” dates originate here on WP, with a WP editor. It is a dispute that exists out there, in the real world. So it isn’t “original” for WP to state any of these dates.

As for the WP:NPOV question regarding which which “foundation” date should go with which faction - I would ask others to assist at the other discussion (over at that noticeboard). I won’t address that question here. All I am saying here is that I don’t see a WP:NOR violation in any of this. Blueboar (talk) 12:43, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

But the sources Spworld2 cited do not support the claim. If there is no source to support it it is original research. If it is not original research, both Samasthas should have the same date of formation. Neutralhappy (talk) 13:13, 21 August 2024 (UTC)

There several other unsourced content in the article Samastha Kerala Jem-iyyathul Ulama (AP faction). Neutralhappy (talk) 18:34, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Why this discussion on WP:ORN started is that WP:NPOVN says:

This page is not a forum for discussions unrelated to the neutral point of view. We have a separate noticeboard for concerns about original research (material made up by a Wikipedia editor), and another dedicated noticeboard for questions about contextual reliability of a source.

Because it is not permitted to discuss the matter of orginal research on WP:NPOVN, the aspect of original research on the matter was taken to WP:ORN Neutralhappy (talk) 23:13, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Lengthy OR at the Stellar engine article

~40% of the article Stellar engine consists of a section, primarily written by one editor, on why published designs for star-moving megastructures contradict physics and could never exist in the real world. There are no references to sources, reliable or otherwise, for the assertations made in the section.

It seems like the entire section should be removed as original research, but since I haven't edited Wikipedia before and the starter guides recommend only doing small edits at first, and later edits to the article have not removed the section but instead modified it to state that these are opinions not yet supported by scientific literature, I thought maybe I should ask about it here first? I'm not sure if this is the right way to go about this, sorry if not. Mhazandaren (talk) 15:33, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

@Mhazandaren, I understand your hesitancy in removing the content yourself. I've removed it and notified the editor of the need for reliable sources. Schazjmd (talk) 15:48, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Alright! Mhazandaren (talk) 16:16, 14 September 2024 (UTC)

Alastair Sweeny

Alastair Sweeny (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

This article was posted directly or indirectly by the subject himself, as a self-promotional item. There is no external documentation because no one external has ever written about him. This article has been deleted before in the early 2000s, again because it was only self-promotional.Ron B. Thomson (talk) 14:49, 15 September 2024 (UTC)

This seems more appropriate a topic for Articles for Deletion than here, since it concerns the whole article and not just a part. Reconrabbit 15:44, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

New Democratic Party

There is an edit war in New Democratic Party about its political position, with multiple users breaking the 3-edit rule. In the talk page, it looks like some users are trying to change the political position based on original research and based on other wikipedia pages (ie. by arguing that certain ideological words correspond with certain political positions on other pages), and that the words in RS "don't have absolute meanings". Argenator (talk) 00:19, 20 September 2024 (UTC)

Myers–Briggs Type Indicator has an RfC

Myers–Briggs Type Indicator has an RfC for possible consensus. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the discussion page. Thank you. Vells (talk) 05:22, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Battle of Nicosia Airport

An editor has carved out an event on a day in the Military operations during the Turkish invasion of Cyprus#23 July 1974 to create the Battle of Nicosia Airport. No credible sources that anybody can find - including the editor in question - uses the term "Battle of Nicosia Airport". Would appreciate any other input into this. Aszx5000 (talk) 19:01, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

Frederiksberggade 1

User:Ramblersen2 has created many articles on notable buildings in Denmark, containing very detailed information about all known previous inhabitants (of the current and former buildings on the same location), compiled from census records. Frederiksberggade 1 is the most recent example. Example paragraph:

At the 1801 census, No. 140 was home to 45 residents in eight households. Jacob Rosted resided in the building with his wife Frideriche Dau. a maid and two lodgers (carpenters). Anne Christine Linne., a widow, resided in the building with two sons (aged 12 and 15), a maid and two students. Gertrud Marie Greis, a widow teacher, resided in the building with a maid, Peder Armstrøm (a planter from Saint Croix and the latter's 11-year-old black servant. Johan Gotlieb Blau, a pharmacist, resided in the building with his wife Christine Winkler, their two children (aged three and five), two maids, three pharmacists, two pharmacist's apprentices and a caretaker. Philip Gebhart von Thun (1756–1828), a captain in the Royal Danish Navy, resided in the building with his wife Anette Mathisen, a two-year-old daughter and two maids. Rasmus Larsen, a beer seller (øltapper), resided in the building with his wife Marie Hansen and their eight-year-old daughter. Ole Hansen, a barkeeper, resided in the building with his wife Juliane Hobroem their trhree children (aged 13 to 18) and a maid. Niels Andersen, a beer seller, resided in the building with his wife Anne Cathrine Jensen and their two children (aged two and three).

We have a disagreement whether such information is acceptable or should be removed. Fram (talk) 14:12, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

@Fram, is there a discussion anywhere other than in edit summaries? I think it's unencyclopedic trivia that should be excluded, but I'd like to hear Ramblersen2's argument for inclusion first. Schazjmd (talk) 14:33, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

User talk:Ramblersen2#WP:OR. I had also informed them of this discussion, as their input is of course necessary. Fram (talk) 14:36, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

I have for quite some time worked on creating articles on all heritage listed buildings in Denmark. In some cases, typically in inner Copenhagen, it is difficult to find sources with more than very basic information. As a supplement to other available sources, I have then relied on information from the earliest available census records (typically 1787, 1801, 1840 and sometimes a few more) in piecing together the early history of the property/building. I think the information from the census records is instrumental in highlighting what sort of people lived in the building, what sort of businesses were operated from the premises etc. In many cases, the same people have contributed to the evolution of the property by adapting then, constructing warehouses etc. If we have an article on a marginally notable (typically heritage listed) building, I think we may just as well make it an informative one, rather than leaving it as a fairly uninformative start-class article. The information from the census records is always supplemented by all the other sources I can dig up, old illustrations etc. I don't think it is correct to refer to published information from census records as "primary sources" or "original research". But I have been in doubt as to how I should present the information to avoid it turning into something that might qualify as original research. And I have then ended up going with the form that seemed to get the best ratings by a range of different reviewers over a quite long period of time. And I have wanted to stick to a somewhat consistent approach. In some cases, I can see that it seems more relevant than in other. In some cases, it would no doubt be better to provide a summary of the composition of residents.Ramblersen2 (talk) 16:08, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

I could see an argument for a brief paragraph summarizing "what sort of people lived in the building, what sort of businesses were operated...". But a prose-list that is merely a directory of residents from over 200 years ago? How is that relevant or helpful? Schazjmd (talk) 16:12, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

It should be removed. That amount of excessive intricate detail is not related to how or why the building is notable in the first place. This type of detail - Peter Christian Kierkegaard resided in the first-floor apartment to the left with the theology student Otto Harald Benedictus Boisen - is not relevant or notable information about the building.

In order for any named resident to be included in the article, they must be notable themselves. For example, see: Notable residents of the Dakota or Notable residents of the Brentmore or Notable residents of The San Remo. Also see WP:NBUILDING for the guidelines on notability for buildings. And danishfamilysearch.dk is a questionable source as well, since it appears to allow user generated content. Isaidnoway (talk) 15:35, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I was going to comment the same, but it's already been done. danishfamilysearch.dk appears to be user generated content (you can create an account here[1]), so shouldn't be used for any verification purposes. -- LCU ActivelyDisinterested «@» °∆t° 15:44, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't think there is any problem with using danishfamilysearch.dk. Creating an account gives you access to more daily page views and you can transcribe untranscribed census records but the page publishes the original census record which is not user generated content.Ramblersen2 (talk) 22:13, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, danishfamilysearch.dk is an unreliable source and when are you going to remove all those excessive details from the article? Isaidnoway (talk) 17:22, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Indeed. And even if the transcriptions or images of census records is unimpeachable, they're WP:PRIMARY and not normally used as sources. EEng 06:23, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

There's a giant world of these articles, all sourced primarily to danishfamilysearch.dk. Can somebody go through [2] and assess these articles? There seems to be oodles of WP:CRUFT in need of removal. Allan Nonymous (talk) 14:06, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

I will try again: Danishfamilysearch is not a user-generated source. The page publishes the original census records, you just need to press "original kilde" ("original source") to see the original census record. Another thing is that the information is also published by the Danish National Archives (see for instance here. Surely what matters for the information to be a valid source is weather it has been published and it has. The link makes it easy to check the source but is not what makes it a valid, published source (just like you can use a book as a source even if you don't provide an online link to the book. Information from census records are routinely used by recognised historians in articles on individual buildings in Copenhagen, see for instance Ida Haugsted's article Gips og voks på Østergade og Værnedamsvej' or Allan Tønnesen's Et hus i Amaliegade (I can provide you with lots and lots of other examples). Why wouldn't Wikipedia accept a source which is good enough for historians and scientific magazines?Ramblersen2 (talk) 17:50, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia generally avoids primary sources unless absolutely necessary. Allan Nonymous (talk) 18:36, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Even that's an overstatement. We don't use primary sources as some kind of last resort because nothing else's available, but rather we use them in very narrow circumstances (generally, to illustrate some point make in a secondary source). If those circumstances don't hold, we don't use the primary source, even if absolutely nothing else is available. EEng 19:10, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Ramblersen2, there are a lot reasons we don't use primary sources except in very narrow circumstances. For example, census records are often just plain wrong. An historian writing a bio of person X will not only look at the census record for where X lived, but will also use letters, business documents, and other sources to confirm what the census says; in their publication, they'll present their scholarly understanding of the best reconstruction of the historical facts, and our article can then draw on that. But we editors lack the resources to do such sifting and research, and indeed it's beyond our remit to do so even if we had such resources. So we don't use census records directly -- we wait for a secondary source to do so, and if that doesn't happen, then that material doesn't go in the article.

Beyond just the question of the accuracy of a census record, there's a question of, well, just plain what belongs in an article. If secondary sources on a particular building haven't seen fit to list its every occupant over the centuries, there's a reason for that: it's trivia.

A final point: Let's say that an historian says his research shows that Mr. Famous Person lived at 14 Wissenspoor in 1750. In addition to reporting that in the article, that would be a good time to go the the census and get the original handwritten census record, and include it as an image in the article. That's an OK use of the primary source, because we're using it for illustration, not as a fact source. There's a great example at Phineas_Gage#Death_and_exhumation -- a cemetery record. It's there for illustration, but NOT as a fact source. Indeed, the cemetery record gives the subject's middle initial as B, which is incorrect -- again, that's why we don't use primary sources for facts.

I hope the above helps. EEng 19:10, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

EEng says it a lot nicer than I could. Allan Nonymous (talk) 19:22, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

I haven't had my grumpy pills yet this morning. EEng 19:28, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Here is a quote from Wikipedia's guidelines: "Primary sources that have been reputably published may be used in Wikipedia, but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them.[e] Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. While a primary source is generally the best source for its own contents, even over a summary of the primary source elsewhere, do not put undue weight on its contents. A primary source may be used on Wikipedia only to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge.". I can easily understand the point that I have provided "excessively detailed information" but I have done so in an effort to make absolutely sure that I was only making "traightforward, descriptive statements of fact". And I do think that the information contains a lot of relevant information about the history of a given building: The type of residents, associated businesses (In Copenhagen, membership of a given craftsman's guild or merchant's guild, was typically attached to the ownership specific properties), notable residents or the hierarchy between different floors etc. In articles on notable buildings (typically because they are heritage listed) that are not major landmarks and where few other sources can be found, I really don't get the problem withy including such information. And having produced a lot of articles on buildings over a long period of time (several years), I can conclude that a wide range of new-page patrollers and page-raters have not seemed to have a problem with the approach either.Ramblersen2 (talk) 19:38, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Look, we realize this is disappointing, and it's annoying that you've put so much effort into this aspect of hundreds of articles (see this search [3] of article space), but even repeating what the census entry nominally asserts is an interpretation -- you're taking it as fact. Look, again, at my example (linked above) of Phineas Gage's cemetery record -- it's got his very name incorrect. These kinds of records are often just wrong, and that's why we don't use them in the was you are using them. Furthermore, your very statement contains a lot of relevant information ... type of residents ... notable residents ... hierarchy between different floors etc shows you're trying to imply stuff that we as editors are not supposed to be implying. If a notable person lived there, then there will be secondary sources on that person mentioning that; we don't come to that conclusion ourselves. If there's something interesting about the hierarchy between floors, then when some social historian comments on that in a secondary source, we can include that; but we don't marshall data to imply that ourselves.

And to be perfectly blunt: your articles are great! The architecture, the history! But the long sections on Jan Marinsen and his wife and their three kids and their two maids and their cow and their chickens are nothing but cruft-trivia. They need to go. EEng 19:57, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

And I can see that lots of other perfectly relevant information based on other sources have to go as well. Yes that is indeeded super "disappointing".Ramblersen2 (talk) 20:27, 10 October 2024 (UTC) How can the deletion of the entire History section of a page such as Nyhavn 17 not qualify as vandalism (compare here)? I get the point that mentioning random tenants at diffent census records is considered irrelevant but just deleting all information on the origins of the property, cadastral numbers (the building's only address until 1859), information on notable previous owners based on other sources, notable former residents based on other sources, map details, images...everything? Does such an approach really leav e it as a better article?Ramblersen2 (talk) 21:02, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't know, and I don't have time to look into it. It does happen that when an article is full of cruft, the cleanup throws some good stuff out with it. What I suggest you do is use that article as a vehicle for working out with other editors what is and is not appropriate for that kind of article in general. Open a discussion on the talk page. EEng

Things like cadastral numbers are trivia though. And considering Wikipedia:Contributor copyright investigations#Ramblersen2, getting rid of most text and only adding relevant, copyvio-free text back afterwards may well be the wisest approach. Fram (talk) 07:21, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

So now pretty much everything is just rejected as trivia. In spite of the fact that it is covered in secondary sources and is the sort of information that is covered in lots of published articles on individual buildings. Weather the information violates any copyrighted material should be pretty easy to determine, considering that the secondary sources are so limited.Ramblersen2 (talk) 10:06, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

If it's covered in secondary sources we can probably use it; if it's merely "the sort of thing" that's covered in secondary sources, then we probably can't use it. EEng 09:46, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

Is this SYNTH

Moved from WP:AN § may I have a ruling on SYNTH?

 – Alpha3031 (t • c) 04:20, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

I often see instances of SYNTH being invoked in what I believe to be a fallacious manner to justify exclusion of content. Like UNDUE, I perceive that SYNTH is often invoked in CT articles in a way that suggests the actual objection is IDONTLIKEIT. that said, I might be wrong.

SYNTH says:

Do not combine material from multiple sources to state or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. Similarly, do not combine different parts of one source to state or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source. If one reliable source says A and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C not mentioned by either of the sources

so, if one reliable source says:

Former President Trump has for several days now spread lies and spouted conspiracy theories about the federal government’s response to Hurricane Helene. The disinformation is causing confusion among those most desperate for help and answers.[4]

and another reliable source says:

Former President Donald Trump has delivered a barrage of lies and distortions about the federal response to Hurricane Helene ... Over a span of six days, in public comments and social media posts, Trump has used his powerful megaphone to endorse or invent false or unsubstantiated claims.[5]

while a third reliable source says:

Republican and Democratic politicians and officials have in recent days resorted to pleading with people to stop spreading false information related to Hurricane Helene, with many saying that rumors and conspiracy theories are hampering recovery efforts ... The false claims have primarily taken hold among media, politicians and influencers who support former President Donald Trump and come at a particularly crucial juncture, with less than a month until the 2024 election. Trump used his high-profile return to Butler, Pennsylvania, where he was nearly killed by a gunman, to continue to spread false claims about FEMA.[6]

would it be SYNTH for an edit to say:

By October 7, press outlets were reporting Trump had engaged in several days of spreading lies, distortions, disinformation and conspiracy theories which public officials said created confusion and hindered recovery efforts

in my view, citing multiple sources which together create a composite edit is not the same as SYNTH. soibangla (talk) 23:41, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

This is not an issue for AN. You should bring this to WP:NORN. voorts (talk/contributions) 00:03, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, that's an example of SYNTH.Alpha3031 (t • c) 04:20, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Specifically, soibangla, we need a source that explicitly links the misinformation that Trump has spread to the misinformation hampering recovery efforts. From only the text of the sources, there could be some specific things A that Trump is saying, and some specific thing B that's hampering recovery efforts, both of which are misinformation, but with different content. To link A and B without a source saying so would be original research. Alpha3031 (t • c) 04:28, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

If this is a dispute regarding a particular article and edits (as you seem to be citing), then you should also link and include them. Context does matter.

But given the text read on its surface, and if the sources are in fact RS for the article, and that they are a representative sample of "press outlets", then your final sentence is fine to summarize. However, in my opinion, again without any context (because you haven't given it), it should take a more conservative approach to summarizing a combination of sources fairly -- one should think more towards intersection rather than union. Not all three sources used the same descriptors, but your summary listed all the descriptors with an "and" connector -- this seems like too much. If each source says two words, then maybe you should only say two words; if each source uses a different word, maybe connect with "or" instead of "and".

Edit: reading User:Alpha3031's addition above: this is why I need context, to find out what shades of meaning are at issue, and how much info is in the sources, given that I'm not gonna be reading them. If the NBC News source is the only one saying that the rumors are "hampering recovery efforts", but it does not tie any of that to Trump's public information apparatus and his own conspiracy mongering, and if the other sources do not make that connection either, then the sentence is simple synth. I.e. PBS reports Trump spreads conspiracy theories; NBC reports conspiracy theories hamper efforts; wikitext says Trump spreads conspiracy theories which hamper efforts = Synth. 04:41, 10 October 2024 (UTC) SamuelRiv (talk) 04:41, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

but PBS reports "The [Trump] disinformation is causing confusion among those most desperate for help and answers" and CNN reports "Trump has used his powerful megaphone to endorse or invent false or unsubstantiated claims," while NBC reports "The false claims have primarily taken hold among media, politicians and influencers who support former President Donald Trump" and "rumors and conspiracy theories are hampering recovery efforts." I do not see the resultant edit as synth. soibangla (talk) 05:13, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

I'd say the easiest way to eliminate OR concerns would be the two sentence version, without stating in wikivoice that disinfo A and disinfo B are the same. The first sentence can say that there are lies and distortions are 1) spread by Trump and 2) causing confusion, and the second can say disinformation is hindering efforts, without attributing the disinformation. The particular article and article talk discussion seems to be here, by the way. Alpha3031 (t • c) 05:52, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Here's the link for context: Talk:Hurricane Helene#there is no SYNTH in this edit.

I came to the same conclusion as Alpha3031 and SamuelRiv. There is synthesis here. We can say:

• Trump has spread disinformation about the federal response[1][2] and FEMA.[3]
• By October 7, press outlets were reporting Trump had spread disinformation about the federal response for several days.[1][2]
• Disinformation spread by Trump about the federal response is causing confusion for those affected by the hurricane.[1]
• Trump spread misinformation about the federal response through public comments and social media posts.[2]
• Public officials have asked those spreading false information about the hurricane to stop and that it has hindered recovery efforts.[3]

So then we could come up with text like "By October 7, press outlets were reporting Trump had spread disinformation about the federal response for several days,[1][2] in public comments and social media posts,[2] and that it was causing confusion for those affected by the hurricane.[1]" You could also use "Public officials have said that disinformation about the federal response hindered recovery efforts.[3]" But you can't put those next to each other in a way that implies they're the same exact disinformation, because implied synth works the same way as any other synth. I'd also discourage using "lies", because that doesn't fit with Wikipedia's impartial tone, which is going to be slightly different from a journalistic tone. Thebiguglyalien (talk) 06:00, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

what is the difference between "implied synth" and "any other synth?" I'd also discourage using "lies" except that's what two reliable source actually say, and one says "disinformation" which is deliberate, rather than "misinformation" which can be inadvertent. I suppose there could be strong consternation by some that after years of reporting Trump speaks "falsehoods," reliable sources now report he's lying. this consternation gives rise to my concerns of some editors using any means, including allegations of synth, to exclude well-sourced content because they just don't like it. soibangla (talk) 06:24, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Let's explain wp:synth in the abstract as it applies here. RS #1 says "A is causing B". RS #2 says "B is causing C". We can summarize #1 and #2, but we cannot say "A is causing the B that is causing C".

Why not? It seems like basic logic, right? Well the real world doesn't work like that, because every real statement has particular scope with particular omission. "A is causing B" as said by a real source RS #1 about a real event does not necessarily mean it is causing all known B, such that when real source RS #2 talks about B, it must be encompassed within the set defined by RS #1. There are many ways to exploit this kind of logic-language disconnect to simply lie (using only true statements), which is part of why synth rules can seem pretty strict. SamuelRiv (talk) 16:52, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

the edit does not say A causes B and B causes C. rather, it says A causes part of C and B causes another part of C.

A = lies, disinformation, conspiracy theories

B = lies, distortions

C = lies, distortions, disinformation and conspiracy theories soibangla (talk) 17:06, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

A = Trump, B = disinformation etc, C = hampering recovery efforts. SamuelRiv (talk) 17:30, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

It is synth because it is saying something not stated in any of the sources, that public official say Donald Trump's spreading of misinformation has hindered recovery efforts. In fact, it is probable that the officials specifically chose not to lay the blame on Donald Trump.

Also, per WEIGHT, if we want articles to state a conclusion, then there should be a source that explicitly says that.

In fact, while you can say that Trump spread misinformation in articles about him, you cannot add that spreading misinformation has harmed recovery efforts, because that would be implicit synth. It would imply that Trump had hindered recovery efforts through spreading false information.

Wikipedia articles should not make accusations against Trump, or any other subject, but should report explicit accusations that have been reliably reported. TFD (talk) 10:24, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes that is pure synth because no source says that Trump ... created confusion and hindered recovery efforts. TarnishedPath^talk 10:30, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes one does, the second source. It's even in the quote above, but here's an even more explicit part of the transcript:

Geoff Bennett: As you note in the piece, the spread of rumors and misinformation has always been a problem during major disasters, especially when the usual channels of communication break down. But what's the real-world harm inflicted by lies and conspiracy theories about the hurricane relief effort?

Juliette Kayyem: Well, there's a couple of direct impacts. The first is how the government works and functions. It needs the support of communities and populations. If there's distrust, rumors, all sorts of rampant lies being spread, in particular by the former President Trump, it makes the work of government more difficult.

In the context of an interview about hurricane relief I feel that's pretty clear. Loki (talk) 17:37, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

Bingo! That's a perfect example of why we like RS that do the SYNTH for us. We must not do it, but we can quote them connecting the dots because that is not forbidden. They provide the connection, then we write it. Then we also provide more sources that describe who is providing the disinformation, and we also provide more sources showing how authorities and aid workers describe the problems caused by all these lies. In the end, we may also add evidence that Russia is also spreading these lies, if that is the case, and since Trump often repeats Russian disinformation almost immediately after it appears, that information would also be good to add if it can be cited to RS. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 19:17, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

I don't know about what the totality of all sources on the topic say, but if you are talking about only the three sources quoted in the original post of this thread, then yes, this is obviously synthesis under any sane reading of policy. This is almost exactly the same thing as the examples given at WP:SYNTH.

The extreme obviousness with which this violates the policy makes me suspect that the question is not being asked in good faith. jp×g🗯️ 11:02, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

The original content was added by them here to the Hurricane Helene article. PackMecEng (talk) 12:59, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

it is a good faith question, but you can go ahead and question my sanity if you like. soibangla (talk) 13:06, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

I am not trying to "question your sanity" [sic]. I simply note that you have been here for eleven years and made twenty-six thousand edits, many thousands of them in extremely contentious current-events articles, and thousands more in intense arguments about arcane nuances of policies. It seems, to me, quite unlikely that you are unaware of what WP:SYNTH says. jp×g🗯️ 07:35, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

I have participated in a good number of PAG discussions over the years in which even seasoned admins have disagreed in their interpretations. Some insist the interpretations are plainly obvious and unambiguous, while others disagree and suggest alternative interpretations. I do not claim to have comprehensive understanding of PAG as many of them never arise during the regular course of my contributions of content, and I spend minimal time hanging around the back rooms to watch the latest drama. I have observed a good number of disputes over the specific interpretation of synth, which can seem nettlesome to some, including me, as it does not seem among the most unambiguous of PAG. Now, people can think that makes me an idiot, but I fail to see how my request for a clarification might have some bad faith component to it. soibangla (talk) 08:19, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

I understand why people think it's WP:SYNTH, and also your reading of WP:SYNTH isn't right either, but I do think that it's actually not WP:SYNTH because the second source (the PBS one) does explicitly say that the misinformation spread by Trump is hampering the hurricane relief effort.

Even the quote you posted does (or at least I don't know how else to read The disinformation is causing confusion among those most desperate for help and answers), but if you click through to the interview it's even more explicit. Loki (talk) 17:32, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

If there is a more relevant quote from the article, then I would be glad to read it, but there is no world in which "those most desperate for help and answers" is equivalent to "the hurricane relief effort". That isn't just a logical jump, that is some Evel Knievel stuff. Are the aid workers the most desperate for help and answers? Don't they generally know the most about the state of the disaster? There was a wildfire near my house a couple months ago, and people were posting random dumb speculation about it on Facebook, and as far as I can tell the sum total of the effect on the firefighting process from this was zero. Why is it such a problem to just write something that accurately represents what the sources say? I get that there is an election coming up, and it's really important, et cetera, but I really think we should just try to follow the policies rather than break them on purpose. jp×g🗯️ 07:41, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

It is very clearly a reference to the hurricane relief effort in context.

Also, I think that before you roll in saying that ssomeone's position is so absurd they aren't acting in good faith, you should at least read the sources they're basing it on yourself, right?

Loki (talk) 11:19, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

@JPxG: you write "as far as I can tell the sum total of the effect on the firefighting process from this was zero." That may have been the case with that fire, but in this case, these lies are motivating people to threaten the lives of FEMA aid workers and officials. That's one reason this is so important. It is serious business, and your concerns that we get it right are very warranted. Now we just need to agree on how to do that. No one is trying to deliberately "break" policies, so AGF. Good faith editors can disagree, discuss, and come to a consensus, maybe a compromise, and we can all do it civilly and remain friends. Don't give up on your fellow editors too quickly. So keep up the good work. -- Valjean (talk) (PING me) 16:07, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

this slight rephrasing has been suggested. is this synth?

By October 7, press outlets were reporting Trump had engaged in several days of spreading lies, distortions, disinformation and conspiracy theories. Public officials said this disinformation created confusion and hindered recovery efforts.

soibangla (talk) 13:55, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

A bit late to the party, but here's my 2¢:

You are attributing some negative action to a living person - something which should cause you to exercise caution. Contentious material about living people, that is unsourced or poorly sourced—whether the material is negative, positive, neutral, or just questionable—must be removed immediately and without waiting for discussion. In my rulebook if you are unsure if the sources unequivocally support what you are trying to say, you should drop this altogether.

No information about living people should carry insinuations about these people unless the foundation is rock-solid. Only the first source supports the suggestion that Donald Trump's misinformation is hindering efforts, and even then the dialogue does not attribute it to "public officials", only to the former assistant secretary at the Department of Homeland Security. In the other two, the relation to Trump is at best tangential. The second source only says that he spread bullshit about the response to Hurricane Helene, while the third source only says that Trump spread bullshit about FEMA in general during his second rally in Butler, Pa. Neither the second nor the third source says about the impact his words may have had.

At most you can write that PBS anchor Geoff Bennett and Juliette Kayyem, a former senior official in the Department of Homeland Security, assessed that through multi-day efforts at spreading disinformation and conspiracy theories about the federal government response, former President Donald Trump was sowing confusion and hampering recovery efforts. But then again if it's due is another good question. Szmenderowiecki (talk) 22:32, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

If you are citing this to the sources that you gave in the initial post of this thread, then yes, as has been said at great length, that is synthesis -- and not some kind of confusing tricky edge-case situation, but the most obvious and straightforward possible example. jp×g🗯️ 07:20, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

You are saying that public officials said that disinformation from Trump created confusion and hindered recovery efforts. The problem is that public officials did not say that. Presumably they made a conscious effort not to say that, so the statement is a BLP violation against them. TFD (talk) 16:30, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Zionism

Is the lead WP:SYNTH? Talk:Zionism#WP:SYNTH_in_lead Andre🚐 23:53, 10 October 2024 (UTC)

2024 AFL Women's season

Could someone else please explain to Rulesfan why the following statements added to 2024 AFL Women's season (and several follow-up statements at the article's talk page) are original research, given that none of the sources they've provided at the talk page explicity state them:

• Brighton Homes Arena had scheduled Brisbane's men's team being to unveil their premiership cup at at the end of the AFLW match with AFLW ticketholders and club members receiving admission [...]
• Many of the 6,102 in attendance at the Brighton Homes Arena were there for the premiership cup reveal which directly followed the conclusion of the women's game.

I'm being accused of gatekeeping and having an agenda, but Rulesfan is still refusing to provide sources that explicity state what they're trying to add. I don't see how the content is needed anyway – this is all about a larger (but not record) home crowd that could come down to a variety of factors, including that the Brisbane v Adelaide rivalry is up there as the biggest in the AFLW, not just those mentioned at the talk page – so I don't think that it's notable/relevant enough to be included regardless, but I would still like to resolve this; thanks. 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 05:49, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for crowdsourcing your affirmation 4TheWynne. This may finally justify your consistent deleting of sourced information. As for the Brisbane Adelaide rivalry you may wish to review crowds for Brighton Homes Arena. https://www.austadiums.com/stadiums/springfield-central-stadium/crowds Last year's crowd for this "rivarlry" was 2,544 ... well below average for the venue. Perhaps actually reading the references provided, applying some common sense and a little Occam's razor is preferable to the Ostrich effect here. Just saying. --Rulesfan (talk) 07:27, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

@Rulesfan: we don't use our "common sense" or "Occam's razor" to make claims on Wikipedia articles. We need reliable sources for any claims we make. If you're not happy about this, you're welcome to join some other project, start a blog or whatever where you can do such things. Unless a reliable secondary source has compared this years crowd to last year's crowd and said that this year's crowd was unusually large, we cannot make such a claim in our article; let alone that it was unusually large because of the unvealing of men's team. If reliable sources have mentioned that the unvealing happened after the game, you might be able to mention it subject to WP:UNDUE etc without connecting it to the crowd size. This would be largely be based on the level of coverage in reliable secondary sources and similar factors. If you only have few reliable secondary sources which mentioned it compared to the number which mentioned the match, this might very well be undue especially for the lead. Even if you aren't suggesting we include it in the article, your OR that the reason for the large crowd size is because of this connection is ultimately only of limited consideration when it comes to due weight consideration when RSes haven't made such a connection. Nil Einne (talk) 13:48, 11 October 2024 (UTC)

I think it is important to point out and have provided sufficient reliable sources to support the claims you've mentioned above, including the notability of the crowd size, but despite this, 4TheWynne has deleted them multiple times. 4TheWynne is well aware of the numerous articles which highlight the problem of poor AFLW crowds this season. I think it needs a counterweight as the article gives readers the false impression that one off large crowds are due to the current popularity of the AFLW competition whereas they are most definitely not.

The facts from the cited sources:

• Several communications were sent from the club and venue themselves that indicated this was not a standard AFLW match but a combined AFL AFLW event. The club sold tickets specifically to witness the unveiling of the men's 2024 AFL Premiership Cup at Brighton Homes Arena which was officially known as "Sunday Fan Day". "QLD: We'll see you after the AFLW game at Brighton Homes Arena. Sunday 5pm-7pm. QLDers will need to purchase a ticket to the AFLW to manage stadium capacity." They were clearly expecting a larger than usual AFLW crowd and much larger than last year's 2,544 if they were expecting the venue to be at capacity which is 8,000.

• The crowd was described as "huge" and directly attribed to the unveiling of the men's premiership cup described as "impossible to deny" - "But it was impossible to deny the infectious momentum of an AFL premiership as a boisterous maroon crowd packed Brighton Homes Arena. Those who stuck around welcomed Brisbane’s victorious AFL team home after they touched down during the second half." "The Lions have a three-point lead going into the final quarter with a huge crowd building up at Springfield ahead of the arrival of the men’s side following their premiership win in Melbourne on Saturday."

Rulesfan, you need to clean up your act and stop speaking for me.

• Several communications were sent from the club and venue themselves that indicated this was not a standard AFLW match but a combined AFL AFLW event. OK, where are they? You've been asked multiple times to provide them.
• The club sold tickets specifically to witness the unveiling of the men's 2024 AFL Premiership Cup. You still haven't provided a source that explicity states this.
• "[I]mpossible to deny the infectious momentum of an AFL premiership" ≠ The crowd was [...] directly attribed to the unveiling of the men's premiership cup.

Read WP:SYNTH:

Do not combine material from multiple sources to state or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by any of the sources. Similarly, do not combine different parts of one source to state or imply a conclusion not explicitly stated by the source. If one reliable source says A and another reliable source says B, do not join A and B together to imply a conclusion C not mentioned by either of the sources.

Rulesfan has continued to add this disputed content wthout consensus, this time wording it: "The match at Brighton Homes Arena was a designated as the Brisbane Lions Fan Day with AFL members requiring tickets to the AFLW match to attend the men's official 2024 AFL Premiership celebrations scheduled for the conclusion of the match". Yes, we can agree that the Lions' fan day took place that day, but that's the only thing explicity stated in any of the sources, with only one (the Age source) adequately connecting it to the match, but not the rest; for one, as above, they still haven't provided a source that any of this was to do with premiership celebrations/unveiling the cup, and my other point remains: even if they did, is the content really needed? 4TheWynne (talk • contribs) 04:42, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

So in summary, even if someone takes out any "perceived" conclusion that hurts your butt you still remove it (without acknowledging the sources provided), because "YOU don't think its not needed" because you don't like the facts or want anyone else editing the article. That has nothing to do with original research, its just classic gatekeeping. What is your actual objection? At this point who cares about the crowd, yes it was a record home and away crowd for the venue (does this have citations besides Austadiums no because the stadium is only two years old and averages more than half empty), the point is that it wasn't solely an AFLW event, which I think is a pretty important one in keeping an event about the AFLW impartial. Otherwise its like saying that a band is popular because it was support act for a big name performer. FWIW multiple of these sources connect it to the match, you're just choosing to ignore them.

• Several communications were sent from the club and venue themselves that indicated this was not a standard AFLW match but a combined AFL AFLW event. The club sold tickets specifically to witness the unveiling of the men's 2024 AFL Premiership Cup. The cup is part of the celebrations, but yeah since its implied in the news... I'm happy with "celebrate the premiership" thats kind of the point of the fan days really. Here you go straight from the source:

References

Hazaras of the Turkman valley

Need some help please. there is a person on the Turkmun Hazaras tribe page keeps reverting my edits and deleting my sources essentially saying that his sources contradicts me. He says "A number of writers have dealt and considered this Hazara tribe to be of the Turkoman race or descent" and he then further says "which if you force me, I will present them to you,". I asked for these writers/sources and he refuses to show them to me or even cite them in his edit. Theres alot more to be said... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mioncraft (talk • contribs) 05:53, 13 October 2024 (UTC)