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Lie Kim Hok[edit]

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This peer review discussion has been closed.
I've listed this article for peer review because I want to bring this to FA and I'd like to hammer out any remaining issues (particularly grammar).

Thanks,  — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:34, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Wehwalt


Lede
  • "and Dutch – he was unable" perhaps "and Dutch, though he was unable …"
  • "after his wife died Lie quit this position." being picky, it could be Van der Linden's wife meant. Perhaps "; Lee quit these positions after his wife died." Positions should be plural. Two periodicals.
  • "and grammar Malajoe Batawi. " Perhaps "Malay grammar". Grammar by itself is not clear.
  • Then we'd have Malay -- Malajoe. How about "grammar book"? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:08, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is it van der Linden or Van der Linden. My understanding on Dutch names is that the "van" is capitalized if there is nothing before it (that is, Hendrik van der Meer, or Dr. van der Meer, but if it's "he went to see Van der Meer", it's capped.) We have plenty of Dutch speakers you could check with.
  • Drmies follows Dutch practice here. Even looking at "Van" with a capital V gives xem a headache. Honestly, I don't know anymore what the US style guides etc. say... Wehwalt may well be right about seeing Van der Meer, though. Drmies (talk) 15:28, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Hmm... I think we'll leave that question for FAC. The usage is quite mixed on Wikipedia, and a discussion at the MOS here suggests we should follow the sources. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:10, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Infobox: I don't think the number of children is what that field is for, it's for naming them.
  • Documentation says "Number of children (e.g. three or 3), or list of names" — Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:08, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Early life
  • "schools for Europeans" perhaps "either" before "for".
  • "Lie received his formal education, including the sciences, language, and Christianty" I'd either add an "in" before "the sciences" or else say that the curriculum included these things.
  • "the religion" perhaps "the religious training". I'd say "influenced" rather than "affected".
  • Source doesn't tie it explicitly, have reworded. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:08, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Lie and his family returned to Bogor in 1866." Yes, but they were there so briefly it's not worth the word "returned". It was not their dwelling place, they were there on a temporary basis before, to have help with the birth. Possibly "moved" or "relocated".
  • The elder Lie's family was originally from Bogor. Clarified — Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:08, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and until his death Lie was unable to speak Chinese." In the lede you say he was unable to understand it. There can be a difference.
  • "When Sierk Coolsma opened a missionary school on 31 May 1869, " In Bogor?
  • "the Sundanese students, mostly Muslim, had transferred to the new school for fear of being converted" to Christianity?
  • "In 1873 Coolsma was tasked to Sumedang " "tasked" is with a project or a job, not to a place. Perhaps "transferred" or "reassigned"?
  • Done.
More in a while.--Wehwalt (talk) 14:53, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Teacher
  • "began assisting" assisted
  • Alright
  • "the missionary's printing press" The missionary's van der Linden, right? You have as yet only called him a teacher. Now that it's been mentioned, going back to the previous section, wouldn't this have undermined the school's apparent appeal to those not wishing to come to Jesus?
  • Added "by fellow missionary" above. It did, hence the big migration away from the school when an alternative opened up. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:10, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "but followed through under his parent's urgings" Perhaps move "parents" to previous sentence, i.e., "Lie was told by his parents …" Then this can be reduced to :*"but obediently followed through" Or perhaps better "but obeyed".
"their first child; the baby" I'm not sure the semicolon is needed or a good idea, it might be better to bridge with "but" or "though".
  • "Following these deaths Lie sold his school to Oey Kim Hoat and left his position at Zending Press to ensure his family's financial stability" Selling your business and quitting your job does this how, exactly? Apparently it doesn't, judging by "Lie was unable to take care of the child"
  • Reworded, missed a bit of info which was quite important. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:10, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Gadok" Link?
  • Added a point of reference. Looks to be a very small village even today. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:10, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Then you may want to give the reader a general location, province name, or the like. I assumed it was a significant town.--Wehwalt (talk) 02:22, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Southeast of Bogor (we've put Bogor in West Java already) — Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:29, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Three years later" than 1881 or 1886?
  • "works by other authors and reprinting some of Lie's earlier works;" repetition
  • Judging by Lie's purchases, his books must have sold well. Can that be said?
  • Not in the sources explicitly, but Tio's purple prose (the bit about the bright star below) implies it. We could say his works did well, but no solid figures and I don't think the sources support identifying which ones sold well. Thoughts? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:10, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Don't have any as don't have the sources. In my view there's a slight disconnect, Lie is presented as very poor and then suddenly he's pulling off these major purchases. There needs to be some hint to the reader that Lie is not that poor anymore.--Wehwalt (talk) 02:22, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Ah. Clarified (another piece of information I thought was there but wasn't) — Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:29, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The publishing house was moved to Batavia soon after and, beginning in mid-1886,[c] Lie's publishing house was credited as printer." Hm. Maybe "Beginning in mid-1886, Lie's publishing house (which he had moved to Batavia) was credited as the newspaper's printer."
  • "While busy with the press" This sentence is too long and should be split. You cannot have two semicolons in a sentence.
  • " the following year." This is a little bit loose, because you are actually talking about a time period here, not the year 1887. But it's "He spent the next three years" which really becomes a problem. After 1887 or 1888?
  • "began work" would say "began to work" or "started working" or "began working". "Began work" has a sense of working on a project.
  • It would be good to know what he did at the rice mill. Presumably it wasn't arduous.
  • All the source says is "managing the rice" ("mengurus beras"). Added, for what good it does. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:10, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Lie was forbidden from leaving the house and his condition steadily declined." At some point, the restriction became superfluous, given that he was dying. I would omit the part about forbidden leaving the house.
Legacy
  • Are the first two sentences really a part of his legacy?
  • Couldn't think of anywhere better. Moved above. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:10, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "notes that Lie's entry into the press sparked an increase in Chinese presence in the Dutch East Indies," Does this mean he caused additional immigration?
  • " Tio does not record" suggest attaching this to the previous sentence, prefaced with a though.
  • "to lead a troupe of teenaged actors," perhaps "for a troupe of teenage actors".
  • You use "marginalised" twice in the final paragraph. You should make it a bit clearer the relationship between bazaar Malay and low Malay for those of us who know nothing about it.
Added a sentence, hope that helps. Two "marginalised"s in a paragraph of this size doesn't seem to be overkill. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:10, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Controversy
  • The word "work" is overused in the first paragraph.
  • "plot elements in both stories are the same, although some elements " delete second elements
  • "found" is used as the verb in two consecutive sentences.
That's about it. Generally quite well done and I'm sure it will do great at FAC.--Wehwalt (talk) 17:34, 26 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Sarastro:

Lead:

  • "In the mid-1870s Lie married and edited two periodicals published by his teacher and mentor D. J. van der Linden; after Lie's wife died he quit this position": This sounds like the editing was a one-off event in the middle of the decade. And I don't think these two things can be mentioned in this way in the same sentence as they are not really connected. Also, no position is mentioned, just an action ("edited" rather than "he was editor"). And it could be pedantically read as written, that after his wife's death, he quit his marriage.
  • "grammar": Could we find a link for this? The use of "grammar" in this sense is perhaps not widely known today.
  • "A grammar of the English language" has numerous ghits, although most are from the turn of the century. Added "book" as we don't have an article yet. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:22, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "a newspaper based in Batavia (now Jakarta) and moved to the city": What moved: Lie or the newspaper?
  • Lie and his printing press
  • "working various odd jobs": I would prefer this to be more formal. "Working jobs" does not sound right in an encyclopaedia; neither, really, does "odd jobs".
  • Any suggestions? Perhaps "lines of work"? "Uncertain employment"?
  • What about "employed in a variety of jobs"? Maybe too pompous, though. Sarastro1 (talk) 14:19, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • A little... trying "lines of employment". Or is this an Americanism? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:26, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Lie has been considered influential in the colony's journalism": Rather an awkward construction.
  • To, perhaps?
  • "he is best remembered for his contributions...": Remembered by who?
  • "Several of his writings saw multiple printings": "saw" remains a pet hate of mine!!
  • Is received better?
  • Fine, but I think I'd go for "were printed multiple times", but no big deal. Sarastro1 (talk) 14:19, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • Went with your wording, as I had used "several" at the beginning of the sentence. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:26, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "his work has become marginalised": I think "was" or "is" may be better here.
  • Not sure on this one. "Has become" implies that a) it was a process and b) it's lasting until now, and c) it may change. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 23:22, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "This conclusion has been debated by several critics, who have found evidence of innovation in Lie's writing style and handling of plots": Maybe "Other critics, though, have found..." or similar.

Early life:

  • "The well-to-do peranakan Chinese[a] couple was living in Cianjur at the time but had gone..."": Is there any reason this could not be simplified to "lived in Cianjur at the time but went..."?
  • "At age ten he was enrolled": Would "Aged ten, he was enrolled..." be simpler?
  • Feels... odd... to me. Can't put my finger on it. Perhaps it's the lack of continuation between young and "Aged ten".
  • Well, if it's common in British English (which is the language ostensibly taught in Indonesian schools) it should be fine. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:26, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Studies resumed, using Malay as van der Linden was unable to speak Sundanese": Something a bit off here. I'm not sure studies can use a language. What about "Studies resumed in Malay; van der Linden was unable to speak Sundanese". (I think the comma is a little ambiguous)
  • "The two would work together at van der Linden's school": Why "would"? Perhaps "later worked together"?
  • "the traditional theatre": Why the definite article?
  • Done and done. Forget why I included it (perhaps as I'm used to doing it for persons?) — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:02, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Teacher and publisher:

  • "Lie had a considerable command of Sundanese and Malay": "Considerable" is a bit vague, and I would prefer something more precise. Good command? Average command? Considerable could be these, or several others.
  • Similar with "fair Dutch", although this one is probably as precise as we can get.
  • It's also all that's supported by the sources. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:02, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Lie assisted van der Linden with the missionary school": Can you assist with a school? Perhaps "at the missionary school".
  • Was thinking "with the operations of", but "at" works even better. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:02, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "operated his own for poor children": General school, or missionary school?
  • General school, clarified.10:02, 28 May 2013 (UTC)
  • "Lie likewise worked for the missionary's printing press": Likewise? What are we comparing to?
  • There is a space before ref 13 that I am too lazy to fix!
  • "The pair soon grew close, and the following year they had their first child, but the baby died soon after birth": Too much going on here, and needs trimming somewhere. Perhaps "The pair soon grew close; the following year they had their first child, although the baby died soon after birth."
  • "In 1881 Oey Pek Nio gave birth to another child, but died soon afterwards.": Without following the link, it may not quite be clear who has died here, the child or the mother.

More to follow. Sarastro1 (talk) 11:44, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

  • "In 1881 Oey Pek Nio gave birth to another child, but died soon afterwards. As Lie was unable to take care of the child, the baby was sent to live with Lie's father-in-law in Gadog, a village to the southeast of Bogor, but died in 1886": We have, in quick succession, "child...child...baby"; even with some pronouns, I think this could be rewritten to avoid the need for this repetition. Also, there are two cases of "but died". Again, I think this could be avoided.
  • I'm in a pickle here because the sources do not give a sex or name (which could be used to determine the sex). Indonesian does not have male/female pronouns, so that's also useless. I'm very, very, very hesitant to use "it" when speaking about a human. So pronouns are out, unless we use the singular "they" which opens another battlefield. How's this? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:02, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In 1984 Lie published his first books": I'm assuming the year is a typo.
  • How did he come to publish the books? This seems to come from no-where.
  • That's how the sources present it. Added a bit of information further up, about how he would create his own poems, but the sources don't mention any formal or non-formal training. He likely borrowed from his time as a magazine editor. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:02, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Beginning in mid-1886": Possibly better as "From mid-1886..."
  • "Two pieces were pieces of nonfiction": Pieces...pieces
  • "Two pieces were pieces of nonfiction, one a collection of Chinese prophecies and the other detailing lease laws.": If the sentence is in this form, it should be "...the other detailed lease laws", but I'm not sure "detailed" is the correct verb here.
  • Outlined?
  • "Lie would not work as a publisher again": I think "did" rather than "would".
  • "spent the next three years working a multitude of jobs": As above, I'm not sure how encyclopaediac "working jobs" is.
  • We still have "working jobs", but that may be another ENGVAR thing as it doesn't sound formal to me. Sarastro1 (talk) 14:19, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Tiong Hoa Hwe Koan, translations, and death

  • "managing the rice": How does one manage rice?? By exercising firm discipline??
  • Sources aren't clear on what exactly his duties were. Trying again. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:02, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The following years saw him translate": Saw again.
  • "Lie caught ill": I think "became ill" is more formal.
  • "while THHK schools throughout the city flew their flags at half-mast": I'm not sure this connects well enough with the rest of the sentence to justify "while".

Legacy

  • "notes that Lie's entry into the press sparked an wave of peranakan Chinese writers to enter the newspaper industry as editors": entry...enter
Reworked. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 10:02, 28 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Adam finds Lie's works": "finds" was used a few sentences previously, so a different word may be better.
  • A few more "saws": "saw multiple printings" and "which saw some success"
  • "which was being performed by Miss Riboet's Orion": It's not too clear what "Miss Riboet's Orion" was.
  • "Chinese Malay literature, written in "low" Malay, was steadily marginalised and declared to be of low quality": low...low

Otherwise, looking good. Sarastro1 (talk) 21:45, 27 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Changes looking good. Sarastro1 (talk) 14:19, 29 May 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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