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Archive 10

English vs Dutch...

Hi there - i picked up on this edit the other day. It seems there may be more.

In essence, it seems in this edit that Dutch has been favoured over English. Ie, Jambi Residency has been converted to Djambi Residency. Or perhaps the argument is that we use Djambi as this was the name at the time. I'm leaning towards favouring the modern name, but I'm interested in other arguments. --Merbabu (talk) 20:54, 7 November 2021 (UTC)

The basic rule is: we do as reliable English-language sources do. A quick scan through commons:Category:Old maps of Southeast Asia indicates that English from back then also seems to favour Jambi. There's even an incidental Jambee, but let's not go there. --HyperGaruda (talk) 18:50, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

Hi there. There is an important distinction in your reply: "English back then". For historical entities, should we be using English from back then, or contemporary English? Although in this the Jambi/Djambi case, you note back then also favours Jambi. Interesting. --Merbabu (talk) 20:04, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

When I read this last night, I looked up on Google Books for both spellings and automatically set the upper date limit to 1945. I guess that's our nostalgic inner self. But actually, this cutoff is not supported by our naming conventions. Of course, modern English-language sources have equal weight as long as they discuss the historical entities. And if modern sources retroactively use modern spellings even though contemporary English-language sources back then followed the Dutch (or Indonesian Republican) spelling, we should give preference to usage in modern sources. –Austronesier (talk) 21:25, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

I was the one who changed from Jambi to Djambi, because it seemed to me it would never have been written Jambi in its time, owing to it being changed because of spelling reforms after 1948. I found relatively little attention was paid to residencies in English sources and those that did were inconsistent with spelling. Didn't even think of historical English maps. At the moment it was the only Residency that had its own stub and I thought if I was going to create more it would be consistent to use their name on paper from the time in the same way we have Kyiv the city, but Kiev Governorate, and so on. And to distinguish the historical geographic unit from the current day one. But whatever people think is the best way to do it I'm willing to abide by going forward. Dan Carkner (talk) 21:30, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

Hello folks, no one has seemed to have any comment, so I will continue naming the obsolete residencies with their Dutch spelling. That is the approach used by Cribb in his historical atlas of Indonesia: "I have generally preserved colonial-era spelling for Dutch administrative names, mainly because many of them have no contemporary equivalent, and they cannot be modernized in the way that place names can. Thus, because Groote Oost has to be preserved in its original spelling, so too are the Lampongsche Districten and Bantam, insofar as these were administrative divisions." p. 10 Cribb, R. B. (2000). Historical atlas of Indonesia. Honolulu: University of Hawai'i Press. ISBN 0-8248-2111-4. I think there is some logic in using it as a distinction from their present day counterpart even as those will invariably be mentioned in the intro of every residency article. Dan Carkner (talk) 00:51, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

URGENT HELP NEEDED

The attacks on Wikimedia images of Jakarta are continuing: see this latest Wikilawyering assault. If this continues, there will be no images of Jakarta at all soon, and no point in making any further contributions. Any thoughts @Mhatopzz @Dan Carkner @Jeromi Mikhael @Juxlos @Merbabu @JarrahTree Davidelit (Talk) 04:14, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

I don't know what to say. Deletion on commons is not a vote, rather we need good policy based arguments. As far as I understand the copy right law in this case, the deletionists have a point. As crazy as the result seems to be. --Merbabu (talk) 11:02, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

I agree, bizarre to me as well but I do not know enough about the copyright rules to contradict them. The idea that you cannot post your own photo of a national landmark where major events happen...? So if it was in the backdrop of a photo of an event ? Sigh... --Dan Carkner (talk) 16:29, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

If it's in the backdrop, it might probably fall under "de minimis" which is cited in the deletion request page. In any case, I am clueless too: how bizarre, how bizarre... –Austronesier (talk) 21:53, 29 November 2021 (UTC)

Soon many more articles will be bereft of pictures. There is no consensus on the Freedom of Panorama (see this and this), but the destruction is still underway. The problem is the lack of admins in the project to fight our corner. Might be time to find another hobby... Davidelit (Talk) 04:20, 1 December 2021 (UTC)

You could always upload a low-resolution copy locally to just en-wiki under the fair use principle. The problem is not a lack of allies, it's simply the Indonesian law versus the Commons principle of files having no restrictions for re-use. You do not want to get into the situation where you use a file and years later are sued for not adhering strictly to the creator/architect's copyright terms. --HyperGaruda (talk) 08:02, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

About Soepardjo and Supardjo - WP:MOVE to Soepardjo (born 1929) and Soepardjo (born 1923)? Some other solution?

Hi all,

• The recently created en.wp article Soepardjo, on the Indonesian language Wikipedia is id:Soepardjo (lahir 1929)
• The en.wp article Supardjo (created 13 August 13 2010), on the Indonesian language Wikipedia is id:Soepardjo (lahir 1923)

They are obviously two different people.

WP:ID-SPELLING suggests that most recent spelling of their names should be used. Given that both Soepardjo-s were born in the 1920s, it would appear to me that Van Ophuijsen Spelling System for the digraph "oe" might apply here.

Your opinions? Is there some established policy or guideline I have missed here? Or something else? Pete AU aka --Shirt58 (talk) 10:35, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

Agreed - very miscible. Juxlos (talk) 13:55, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

An awkward case. Both are lesser-known figures so I don't think the old/new spelling issue would be the most important factor nor would be the case that one should have one spelling and the other have the other one. Per Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(people)#Disambiguating they suggest adding year of birth if two people had the same occupation. On the other hand one time I wrote an article about Zinovy Shulman the Soviet singer as there was already the article about Zinovii Shulman the scientist. It's purely arbitrary which article has which spelling, as it is just a slightly different way of transliterating Russian, but in the years since no one has cared.Dan Carkner (talk) 14:49, 11 December 2021 (UTC)

One of the cases where if you don't do it nobody notices and if you do it nobody notices still. Juxlos (talk) 08:44, 12 December 2021 (UTC)

Persaudaraan Setia Hati Terate

• Persaudaraan Setia Hati Terate (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Can someone work out what is going on at this article. There are a couple of new editors with differing claims about the leader and the official website of the group. Presumably this is a factional dispute. A brief note by an onlooker is on talk, and I saw it at a request for protection (WP:RFPP). Johnuniq (talk) 06:48, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

@Johnuniq: Yeah, a leadership dispute that got all the way to the Supreme Court of Indonesia. Ketua DPD RI dampingi PSHT temui Ketum KONI untuk selesaikan polemik Juxlos (talk) 05:01, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

Umm, I'm hoping you will know what should be done in the article. If there is a credible dispute, the best thing might to remove text about the leader or the website? Johnuniq (talk) 06:22, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

Probably mention the leader based on the court decision and then note that he faced a leadership challenge, mentioning the court case. Juxlos (talk) 06:25, 8 January 2022 (UTC)

FAR for Torajan people

I have nominated Torajan people for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. (t · c) buidhe 09:09, 15 January 2022 (UTC)

Sarah Azhari 's page up for deletion

Someone decided that Sarah Azhari page must be deleted. Thoughts?

• I personally support the deletion, the nominator has a point. She is mostly known for her controversy, most of the results are gossip pieces/attention-grabbing infotaiments which have questionable quality, the source in current article is not any better Nyanardsan (talk) 00:24, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

• hi, dont know if you read the new resources i did find, let me know what you think.

Profil Sarah Azhari, Wajahnya Tetap Menawan di Usia 40-an, Kini Hijrah ke LA Amerika Serikat Amoeba69th (talk) 20:38, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

Read WP:CANVAS. AndyTheGrump (talk) 23:59, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

@AndyTheGrump: Be assured that the regulars of this project are not easily impressed by non-neutral notifications. Most of these actually turn into a boomerang in the shape of !votes that diametrically go against the intentions of the OP :) –Austronesier (talk) 00:08, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

read and got it andythegrump and thanks austronesier for reviewing the sources as non-neutral, right ? Amoeba69th (talk) 02:42, 29 January 2022 (UTC)

References

Featured article nomination

 You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Sjafruddin Prawiranegara/archive1. It would be great to get more folks familiar with Indonesia topics to take a look at it. Cheers, {{u|Sdkb}} ^talk 19:37, 6 February 2022 (UTC)

Help needed with Indonesian language sources at Sarah Azhari

 You are invited to join the discussion at Talk:Sarah Azhari. Peaceray (talk) 21:35, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

De facto Republic of Indonesia

I recently came across to article of De facto Republic of Indonesia. IMO, it is unnecessary content forking. The content on that page is mainly copied from Linggadjati Agreement and almost no information on Republic of Indonesia at that time. Do we really need that page? Can we just merge/redirect or propose Afd on that article. Ckfasdf (talk) 13:02, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

That article looks like some NICA guy wrote it. Juxlos (talk) 13:35, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

So? AfD.. it is? Ckfasdf (talk) 01:46, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

That would be like a De facto United States because they weren’t recognized by the British between 1776 and 1783 so yeah AFD. Juxlos (talk) 03:04, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

That's what I thought as well. Oh well, AfD created. Ckfasdf (talk) 03:47, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

Nomination of De facto Republic of Indonesia for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article De facto Republic of Indonesia is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/De facto Republic of Indonesia until a consensus is reached, and anyone, including you, is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article.

Ckfasdf (talk) 03:47, 16 February 2022 (UTC)

FAR for Durian

I have nominated Durian for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Hog Farm _Talk 17:34, 2 April 2022 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Pia Zebadiah Bernadeth#Requested move 30 March 2022

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Pia Zebadiah Bernadeth#Requested move 30 March 2022 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. 🐶 EpicPupper ^{(he/him | talk)} 21:22, 6 April 2022 (UTC)

2022 Indonesian student protests

Hi, calling active contributors on WP:Indonesia to edit this ongoing event. I think this time we should not repeat what we did with Omnibus Law protest and actually aiming for ITN, as it is widespread enough. Nyanardsan (talk) 07:52, 11 April 2022 (UTC)

This has had almost very little international coverage, and in any case the article is not very well written. The last Indonesian story to feature on the BBC app appears to be the birth of a Sumatran Rhino. Perhaps that could be nominated for "ITN" instead? Davidelit (Talk) 14:35, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

WP:NOTNEWS, WP:NOTSOAPBOX (just to clarify, I'm not talking about the rhino). –Austronesier (talk) 19:06, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

User script to detect unreliable sources

Main page: User:Headbomb/unreliable

I have (with the help of others) made a small user script to detect and highlight various links to unreliable sources and predatory journals. Some of you may already be familiar with it, given it is currently the 39th most imported script on Wikipedia. The idea is that it takes something like

• John Smith "Article of things" Deprecated.com. Accessed 2020-02-14. (John Smith "[https://www.deprecated.com/article Article of things]" ''Deprecated.com''. Accessed 2020-02-14.)

and turns it into something like

• John Smith "Article of things" Deprecated.com. Accessed 2020-02-14.

It will work on a variety of links, including those from {{cite web}}, {{cite journal}} and {{doi}}.

The script is mostly based on WP:RSPSOURCES, WP:NPPSG and WP:CITEWATCH and a good dose of common sense. I'm always expanding coverage and tweaking the script's logic, so general feedback and suggestions to expand coverage to other unreliable sources are always welcomed.

Do note that this is not a script to be mindlessly used, and several caveats apply. Details and instructions are available at User:Headbomb/unreliable. Questions, comments and requests can be made at User talk:Headbomb/unreliable.

- Headbomb {t · c · p · b}

This is a one time notice and can't be unsubscribed from. Delivered by: MediaWiki message delivery (talk) 16:01, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Requested move: Java

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Java (programming language)#Requested move 16 May 2022 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Certes (talk) 09:04, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

The island is the primary topic. There's even a guideline/policy that says page views are irrelevant. Can't find it right now. Ridiculous. And island of 130 m people is not primary topic? --Merbabu (talk) 09:08, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

This again ? And you are quite right, it's absurd to say it would not be primary. --Dan Carkner (talk) 16:02, 17 May 2022 (UTC)

Multatuli Museums

I notice there are now at least 2 Multatuli Museums with essentially the same name: the one in Amsterdam which is described at Multatuli Museum and the one opened in 2018 in Banten which is at https://id.wikipedia.org/wiki/Museum_Multatuli on the Indonesian wikipedia, but not yet on the EN wikipedia. Any thoughts on how to have articles about both? If the NL one is older (unsure of the opening date) and has the author's personal papers, perhaps it is a more primary topic, and the Indonesian one should be the one have some kind of parenthetical disambiguation in the title? --Dan Carkner (talk) 20:00, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

I’d say both getting parentheses are fair enough, since it’s not like either are massive museums at the tier of say the Louvre. Juxlos (talk) 01:49, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

I could certainly go along with that .. what do you propose? (Amsterdam) and (Indonesia) ? --Dan Carkner (talk) 04:50, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

(Netherlands) and (Indonesia) feel more fitting, not like there’s plenty of Multatuli museums in either country. Juxlos (talk) 05:10, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

Right, with a disambiguation page at the current location? I think that makes sense. Will double check article titling guidelines just to make sure before doing so. --Dan Carkner (talk) 13:46, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

Done. There is now my new article at Multatuli Museum (Indonesia), the old article at Multatuli Museum (Netherlands) and a disambiguation at Multatuli Museum. Dan Carkner (talk) 14:37, 25 May 2022 (UTC)

Let(t)i

I suspect that that the content of Leti Islands (or Letti Islands) should be about islands (and in particular one island) with a name spelt the exact same way (with the same number of "t"s) -- and that if the other spelling isn't a mere mistake, that there should be a redirect from it. Which spelling is preferable? I've no idea. (Normally I'd look in the references; but no usable reference is provided.) Over to you. -- Hoary (talk) 03:16, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Is your question about the spelling specifically? I hadn't heard of these islands but maybe there are two co-existing variant spellings. When I search news sites like Tempo or Kompas for "Kepulauan Letti" I get under a dozen results and none for "Kepulauan Leti". conversely on this educational repository I get 2 results for "Kepulauan Leti" and none for "Kepulauan Letti". Likewise general google results about 5500 for "Kepulauan Leti" and around 2500 for "Kepulauan Letti". I would say they are variants and that neither is canonically correct, just my guess. I will redirect from whichever is not in the article title. --Dan Carkner (talk) 03:47, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Dan Carkner, yes, about the spelling specifically. But conceivably each spelling was the sole, indisputed spelling for the name in this or that relevant Indonesian language. I could of course have read up on the matter of appropriate nomenclature of Indonesian placenames, but the minutes add up. -- Hoary (talk) 04:30, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Refer to official map of Indonesia, provided by Indonesian Geospatial Information Agency, the Name of Island is "Letti Island" and it is part of "Letti Islands" (with double "t"). Ckfasdf (talk) 04:50, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

So it is, good idea to look there. Perhaps the article should be moved to Letti Islands with the redirect from Leti Islands, and a mention somewhere in the intro paragraph about the fact the alternate spelling appears sometimes. Dan Carkner (talk) 04:59, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Done. Dan Carkner (talk) 05:05, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

That's a good sample of the kind of possibility that made me hesitate and defer to the Indonesia-knowledgable. I've no particular objection to the unquestioning adherence to prescriptions/preferences of the Indonesian Geospatial Information Agency; but elsewhere in the vastness of Wikipedia, state-prescribed names and spellings count for nothing and what matters is the name, and its spelling, most commonly used within English-language text. -- Hoary (talk) 09:01, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

I have always thought that "Letti" is an outdated Dutch/colonial spelling. I've done some work (but NB not fieldwork) about the languages of Southwest Maluku, and always used the spelling "Leti" for people, langugage, island and island group. My colleague Aone van Engelenhoven, who has family ties to the island, always writes "Leti" AFAIK. But yes, the official spelling of the district (= island) is kecamatan Letti, as I have learned today.

In a Google Books search (only 21st century), "Leti Islands" by far outweighs "Letti Islands". So there's a discrepancy WP:COMMONNAME vs. official spelling in Indonesian sources. –Austronesier (talk) 11:05, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Badan bahasa also list the language as "Letti". So yea.. It's WP:COMMONNAME vs. official spelling. Should we open up WP:REQMOVE on talk page? Ckfasdf (talk) 12:19, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

Huh. Well I'm open to whatever people want to do. IMO where it comes down to just one letter of spelling in the difference, and that both are present as redirects and in the first paragraph, it doesn't see like a big issue. But maybe there is some significance that I am not aware of. Dan Carkner (talk) 15:15, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

I'm good with the current solution (= Letti Islands). I'd probably start to feel strongly about things when an editor suddenly came up with the idea to move Leti language to Letti language for "consistency" ;) –Austronesier (talk) 18:06, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

I'm also good with either solutions. However, since now we know that "Letti" is the official name and "Leti" is the common name in English. IMO, we should mentioned both names in the article (islands, island and language). Ckfasdf (talk) 02:19, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

RFC on spelling of historical names

I notice this edit on my watchlist today by User:Ramsnet. I am not trying to challenge this particular move but I do wonder if we can discuss and possibly amend the wikiproject style guide to say that historical proper nouns may be an exception to always using modern Indonesian spelling (depending of course on what the common name is in English as well). To me this would mainly apply to people, companies, or obsolete places, especially ones that predate the independence era. I would suggest that it is roughly equivalent for an article title to have the name spelled historically or with a modern correction, and that an article doesn't have to be moved to "fix" it from one to the other just on principle alone--as with American and British English spellings on Wikipedia, that moving between them does not really serve much. Thoughts? --Dan Carkner (talk) 14:38, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Just to add that it also came up here in a discussion not too long ago and that I may have been alone on this perspective of things. But if there really is a policy to move personal names to modern spellings there is quite a long list out there and it may not always correspond to modern English usage (in some cases it does). --Dan Carkner (talk) 14:42, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Hey Dan, I'm quite new here so I didn't realise there was a style guide for pre-independence names as you said. I thought since the pages Sukarno, Suharto, Sudirman, etc. uses the new spelling, it is the consensus. The name "Cipto Mangunkusumo" is also used as a street name and a hospital in Jakarta, so I believe it is more commonly known.

I'd be down to change it back if there is a style guide to follow.

Cheers Ramsnet (talk) 16:56, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

No problem. And it's not up to me of course, just saying my opinion. I think you did OK in this case because as you say the name is pretty commonly seen under the modernized spelling, we get 20 times more google results from the modern spelling (maybe because of the place names too). If it was a lesser known historical figure I tend to use the old fashioned spelling especially if it appears in English language secondary sources with that spelling. The style guide can be found at Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Indonesia-related articles and does indeed currently say to use the modernized spelling, although as we know with the spelling reforms in Indonesian it was not always applied to personal names during the lifetime of the person. --Dan Carkner (talk) 18:30, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Sabang or/and Weh Island?

I initailly wanted to propose this for merge, but given the fact that merging requests has always been slow and that this merge is most likely quite controversial/complicated and need more discussion, I would like to ask other editors here first.

We have separate articles on Weh Island and Sabang, Aceh. And Sabang, for some reason, has its article with prefix "Aceh" on it.

So my question is:

1. Since the entirety of Weh Island is basically under Sabang city, and using other similiar examples such as Tarakan and Ternate (both also does not only include their respective main island but also smaller islands surrounding it), and also that because Indonesian media often referred Weh Island as Sabang city instead of the island itself, shouldnt this mean Weh Island should be merged to the city article? If the city shouldnt be merged because that the city name differs from the island itself (even though media often got mixed Sabang and the island together), does this mean case like Tual should have separate article about Dullah Island? And since the city is centered on the island, it would be just same content mostly.
2. Sabang is the main topic, so why the city needs ",Aceh" prefix?
3. If nothing merged, where to draw the line so that its not the same content or just very identical content between Sabang city and Weh Island itself?

Nyanardsan (talk) 01:03, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

As short comment on point 2: Sabang is a dab, and at least the Sabang in India is more populous than Sabang in Aceh. So it will be hard to argue for the latter as primary topic without disambiguator. –Austronesier (talk) 17:32, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

New article on Rahmah El Yunusiyah - please help with translation from featured article on Indonesian Wikipedia

Hello! I've just created an English Wikipedia article on Rahmah El Yunusiyah, a freedom fighter and activist for women's education who lived from 1900-1969. The article is sparse at the moment, but the Indonesian-language version is a featured article there. It's long, detailed, and well-cited. However, I don't speak or read Indonesian, so I'm hesitant to rely on Google's translating abilities. If anyone here is capable in Indonesian, I would greatly appreciate your help in expanding the page using content from Indonesian Wikipedia. Thank you! —Ganesha811 (talk) 19:06, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

I can take a look later. By the way, I wonder if the definitely article "el" in the name should be lower case in the article title. At least in Wikipedia:Arabic names they have them as lower case in their examples. (edit: and now I see here at Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Arabic#Capitalization that it specifies to have it lowercase too.) --Dan Carkner (talk) 20:46, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

I followed what was used on Indonesian and French Wikipedia, but if we have an applicable standard here on English Wikipedia, that takes priority. On the other hand, it's not really an Arabic name, but a Muslim name from Indonesia. The Vreede-DeSteurs book, which uses an older/outdated transliteration scheme, calls her "Rahma El Junusia". Not sure what the right course is but don't mind at all if the page is moved. Thanks for taking a look! —Ganesha811 (talk) 22:00, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

A Google books search yields mixed results, with maybe a slight majority being lower case. My feeling is to follow the above style guide on Arabic-derived names for want of any Indonesia-specific guidance on Wikipedia, but it's certainly not a big deal either way. As for the content I will take a look maybe tomorrow and see if I can dig up some more references, in addition to assessing what can be brought over from the ID version. Dan Carkner (talk) 22:31, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Hope you don't mind - I did end up moving it to having the lower case article per the style guide. Anyhow there's still a lot that could be added to this article. I'm going through some databases as I have time and see what citations I can come up with. Most of it seems to be about her early education work but I'm curious to find more sources about her post-independence political career. Dan Carkner (talk) 15:14, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

No problem at all! Thanks for the work you’re doing to expand the article. —Ganesha811 (talk) 16:18, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

Van Pemboewan

Excuse me, will you all correct the Van Pemboewan translation? ▪ ^꧋ꦩꦣꦪ Fazoffic ( ʖ╎ᓵᔑ∷ᔑ) 23:56, 28 June 2022 (UTC)

I certainly can. But may I ask why this district is considered notable? Not trying to get rid of it I just don't see it explained yet. Perhaps if I look up some sources I will understand. --Dan Carkner (talk) 01:26, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

OK so. I have not touched your article yet. I am willing to copy edit it but first I think it needs to be focused and explained better. When I search Delpher for Pemboean or Pemboewan there are almost no results - just random mentions of a river in Borneo. That is not encouraging for something that is supposed to be a historically notable territory. Could I find evidence about that early Dutch territory under a different name perhaps? And then the article implies that it existed until 1946 - is this true? Why so few results on Delpher? Sorry, just trying to sort this out. --Dan Carkner (talk) 01:45, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Maybe the content could be merged to Seruyan Regency instead? Nyanardsan (talk) 03:57, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Although I am generally in favour of allowing articles on almost any obscure topic on Wikipedia, if we cannot find any sources about this historical territory that may be a better idea. Fazoffic, do you have any comments about this? What made you decide to create it? Can you see finding some sources to explain its notability/significance? --Dan Carkner (talk) 16:26, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

@Fazoffic: As a first measure, I recommend to move the page to Pemboewan, and have the residual redirect Van Pemboewan speedily deleted. "Van" is the Dutch equivalent of the preposition "of", so this weird page title is like having an article Of Ireland from the full name "Republic of Ireland".

I'm still going through Dutch sources from the first half of the 20th century. Present-day Seruyan was part of the "Onderafdeeling Sampit" during the Dutch era. So far I have found two attestations of the administrative unit (with the more accurate spelling "Pemboeang"): in this source, the "district Pemboeang" is mentioned, while here, Pemboeang is listed as one of the "plaasten" (places) in the "Onderafdeeling Sampit". –Austronesier (talk) 20:05, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Forgot to mention, I have a friend from Hanau (no, not Hanau), so I am a bit familiar with the region and its regional language (bahasa Pembuang). –Austronesier (talk) 20:10, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Oh, my dumb. Apparently, there is loads of stuff in Delpher :) –Austronesier (talk) 20:19, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for that. I would say Pemboewan with the "w" seems to have the least hits on delpher of any of the spellings, so it should probably not be used in the article title unless we find some clear reason to. --Dan Carkner (talk) 20:25, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

@Dan Carkner, @Austronesier, @Nyanardsan: I created this page because it is part of the history of Indonesia (the history of the Seruyan district to be precise). Why not merged with the Dutch East Indies? As you read on Page Van Pemboewan,this area was formed before the Dutch East Indies. So it is counted as a Colony Alone.

~Thank you ^꧋ꦩꦣꦪ Fazoffic ( ʖ╎ᓵᔑ∷ᔑ) 23:30, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Question. Apologize for asking this, but if hypothetically, if someone going to expand Seruyan Regency article (which I hope I will, eventually), then much of regency's history section will include majority if not all contents currently present in Pemboewan article.

Doesnt this seem like an unnecessary content forking, where instead the article about the historical district itself could instead be included at current's regency history section? Nyanardsan (talk) 07:45, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

@Austronesier, I Value Your Opinion. Looks like your recommendation is good. I would Consider Moving That Page To '''Pemboewan''' ^꧋ꦩꦣꦪ Fazoffic ( ʖ╎ᓵᔑ∷ᔑ) 23:33, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Secondary Sources For This District Very Hard to Find. Adding Primary Source? No, Wikipedia will not allow that. ^꧋ꦩꦣꦪ Fazoffic ( ʖ╎ᓵᔑ∷ᔑ) 23:39, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

But if it's very difficult to find descriptions of in books it may be difficult for it to pass notability on Wikipedia. OK, so ideally should this article be about a geographic place ? Should it only be about the indirectly governed early territory before it was amalgamated into later district ? Or should it be about the totality of what happened in this geographic area from the start to end of Dutch rule, across several administrative reorganizations? Dan Carkner (talk) 01:21, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

@Dan Carkner....Perhaps ideally, this article is about a colony that is considered to be part of the Dutch East Indies (actually there are many other areas in Indonesia which were actually colonies but were included as colonies of the Dutch East Indies). It's Not About Geography, because There's No Geo Element in this article. The Sources I Mean Secondary Source are Digital Sources, and These are the only 7 I have found.

I just hope you can understand that this article is about the history of a place that is considered Remote in our area (Indonesia).

~Thank You ^꧋ꦩꦣꦪ Fazoffic ( ʖ╎ᓵᔑ∷ᔑ) 05:40, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

I also wish there were other digital resources to add to this article. Maybe @Dan Carkner, and @Austronesier, Can Help? ^꧋ꦩꦣꦪ Fazoffic ( ʖ╎ᓵᔑ∷ᔑ) 05:45, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

@Fazoffic

It is not as remote as it seems if we are talking current-day Seruyan Regency which has numerous detailed sources and news reports both local and national. But we are talking about the historical Pemboewan district, which arguably the predecessor of Seruyan Regency, we got far less sources and coverage of it. It's less about the remoteness/whether the place is remote or not (which I would argue it isnt that remote) since today's Seruyan has fairly numerous and detailed sources while the historical district which was the predecessor of the regency has little, and they are essentially located in the same place but different historical period. It seems like it would be better if the content in current Pemboewan article to be merged to the Seruyan Regency. Nyanardsan (talk) 11:36, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

I fully agree with @Nyanardsan, we really should avoid to create redundancies and content forks. Either we keep the information focused in Seruyan Regency, or we properly expand Pemboewan (ideally moved to a more commonly encountered name) if notability criteria apply. For the latter, I see a major problem, since it is hard from the sources even just to find out the actual scope of "Pemboewan"/"Pemboeang": was it really the predecessor of the entire kabupaten Seruyan, or maybe just confined to the central area around Hanau and Seruyan Hilir? –Austronesier (talk) 10:17, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

As you can see on the Pemboewan page, the map of Pemboewan area was created by Albenddove Ardillesiansy and Djaja Bhaei Kardjawindar. And I got this map from Tarwidi Tamasaputra, the former deputy regent of Seruyan Regency. References that I can also come from him and because I also helped him for this. Regarding these two people, I don't know anything about them. Tarwidi Tamasaputra also did not provide me with any information regarding the 2 people.

He (Tarwidi Tamasaputra) said that the current form and borders of Seruyan Regency originate from Pemboeang/Pemboewan and have never changed until now. ^꧋ꦩꦣꦪ Fazoffic ( ʖ╎ᓵᔑ∷ᔑ) 01:23, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

@Austronesier, @Nyanardsan, I suggest that we focus first on Seruyan Regency because that page is still very lacking. Maybe Copying from idwiki? (I'm not sure it's Allowed). ^꧋ꦩꦣꦪ Fazoffic ( ʖ╎ᓵᔑ∷ᔑ) 01:35, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

@Fazoffic

I have plan on that article soon, probably after I finish some of my other to do lists. I recommend when expanding regencies/cities article try to standarize the sections, example can be seen like in South Barito Regency or Sangihe Islands Regency.

Have a nice day~ Nyanardsan (talk) 02:30, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

👍 OK! ^꧋ꦩꦣꦪ Fazoffic ( ʖ╎ᓵᔑ∷ᔑ) 02:33, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

@Fazoffic: If present-day Seruyan covers the same area as historical Pemboeang/Pemboewan, not even the well-loved policy WP:GEOLAND supports having two articles about the same thing. We can have a separate article about the historical entity if there is WP:SIGCOV (which I can't see in spite of numerous passing mentions in old sources), of if the article Seruyan Regency is large enough to warrant a WP:SIZESPLIT (which also is not the case).

Btw, are you sure about the spelling of Albenddove Ardillesiansy? It looks like something went wrong just like in "Van Pemboewan". –Austronesier (talk) 09:55, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

I would not be surprised if that last remark is the result of an auto-translation. The rest of the article was obviously machine-translated too (e.g. "Kampung Pembuang Hulu" became "Upstream Disposal Village"!). I tried fixing some of the blatant errors, but there are so many issues due to misinterpreting old Dutch documents via Indonesian into machine-translated English... --HyperGaruda (talk) 10:07, 2 July 2022 (UTC)

😁 ^꧋ꦩꦣꦪ Fazoffic ( ʖ╎ᓵᔑ∷ᔑ) 00:56, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

I leave this article to you all. I'm busy at Idwiki so I don't have time to take care of articles on Enwiki. Oh yes, for @HyperGaruda, Tarwidi Tamasaputra once said:

“ His name is Pemboewan or Pemboeang, Completely Onderdistrictshoofd van Pemboewan. Onderdistrict because it was under the direct control of the VOC, Shoofd because it was ruled by Shoofd (Kjai's assistant), Van because it was located in Pambuang, Pemboewan (or Pemboeang) is the name, Taken from Pambuang Banjar. ” — Tarwidi Tamasaputra

I feel lazy to translate it myself so I use machine translation (and because my English is only Level 4....Hahaha). So I Hope All Can Understand This. ~Thank you _{[translated automatically by Translator Machine]} ^꧋ꦩꦣꦪ Fazoffic ( ʖ╎ᓵᔑ∷ᔑ) 02:14, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

OK well ... if you do not plan to develop it I think whatever historical facts should be put into the regency article and this one should be closed down. As suggested above. And by the way, I think machine translation has its uses on wikipedia, don't feel bad about that, but after that errors also need to be able to be identified and fixed. Or else we may be left with information that is wrong at worst or difficult to understand at best. --Dan Carkner (talk) 15:52, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

“ and this one should be closed down ”

You Mean, Deleted?

Btw... I'm not sure that Ujung Pandaran is not included in the Pemboewan area. ^꧋ꦩꦣꦪ Fazoffic ( ʖ╎ᓵᔑ∷ᔑ) 18:03, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

Allright, Just my Dumb. Ujung Pandaran is Not Part of Pemboewan but a Part of "Kewedanan Sampit Barat". ^꧋ꦩꦣꦪ Fazoffic ( ʖ╎ᓵᔑ∷ᔑ) 18:05, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

“ I leave this article to you all ”

Allright... I'll take back my words. I Will Visit This Article Once a Week.

~Thank you ^꧋ꦩꦣꦪ Fazoffic ( ʖ╎ᓵᔑ∷ᔑ) 18:10, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

Wikimedia ESEAP Conference 2022 on November 18-20 in Sydney, Australia

The Wikimedia East, South East Asia and the Pacific also known as ESEAP will be having an in-person conference in Sydney, Australia on November 18-20. ESEAP is a regional collaborative composed of nationalities & Wikimedia affiliates of Indonesia, Taiwan, Australia, Korea, Thailand, Philippines, Malaysia, Myanmar, New Zealand, Hong Kong, and Vietnam. Membership also include nationalities and informal communities of Brunei, Cambodia, China, Japan, Laos, Macau, Mongolia, Papua New Guinea, Singapore, and Timor Leste.

The goals for the conference are:

• Strategic discussions: ESEAP Hub governance, process of moving from an informal group to more formal structure aligned with the Hubs/Minimum Criteria for Pilots
• Partnership, Tools & Skills: Outreach and community collaboration support networks; building a network of skill sets so that communities in the region can provide extra outreach support and collaboration across the region; and
• Leadership development through building networks that encourage new and wider diversity of participants to enable future growth

For more information, please visit the conference page.

Scholarship application (subsidized air fare, accommodation, and relevant fees) is ongoing. You may go to the scholarship page to know more. Deadline for scholarship application is on 24 July (Sunday) at 12:00 UTC (see your local time) .

We also call for volunteers to the following committees:

• Scholarship committee
• Program submissions review committee
• Communications committee
• Onsite & technical volunteers

For inquiries, please reach us at eseap.confwikimedia.org.au.

Thank you! --Exec8 (talk) 04:46, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

How many approaches?

Mataram

Mataram Kingdom

Mataram_Sultanate

House_of_Mataram

I really wonder do we need all of this? I am quite concerned that other regular editors who come here might offer some comment. I post without fear or favour of any particular point of view, but feel that we might have more than we need... I look forward to other editors ideas. JarrahTree 12:47, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

If I understand correctly, you think they may have to be merged? That would become a huge article, likely too big. The kingdom and the sultanate should remain separate, considering almost six centuries are in between them. Then there is Mataram (city) for current-day information. With three similarly titled articles, the disambiguation page is also necessary. I suppose you could argue that House of Mataram might be better off merged with the sultanate, but that is the only feasible merger I see. --HyperGaruda (talk) 16:05, 25 July 2022 (UTC)

Agree with HyperGaruda. There's room for different articles relating to entities sharing the same geographic space but not political or temporal continuity. Dan Carkner (talk) 17:13, 26 July 2022 (UTC)

wow we are being cautious in our wording about it - house of mataram is simply repeating information already existing and is not even a merge possibility, it is an obvious pinch/copy from the id project - with no references in sight, and assertions that exist already in other articles, and in any sense not a beneficial addition to the project - one way to see when this project goes quiet that someone has not put up a prod (yet) JarrahTree 01:27, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

How many times?

Sukarno - Soekarno has been shifted so many times since the start of the article, usually by editors who have never consulted/discussed, and in many cases who have never been seen again.

Please if you are on a watch of this page - it would be good to have more than two other editors to arrive and join in and decide that the protection of the article against the constant shifting back and forwards... JarrahTree 14:31, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

According to the page log, this happened on two occasions. I was surprised to find only one revision in the history of Soekarno, but that enables anyone, even without move rights, to overwrite the redirect and rename Sukarno to Soekarno. As such, I made an edit, which should prevent this and make a move discussion the only non-admin way to rename the page. --HyperGaruda (talk) 19:30, 27 July 2022 (UTC)

my apology, I am probably remembering the change of spelling in the lead sentence, as well as the moves, so you are correct... The page has since been protected for the moves by admins only. Thanks for checking my rather grandiose claim, appreciated. JarrahTree 03:16, 29 July 2022 (UTC)

Translate

Hello, iam back again (but, with a new topic). Please correct the automatic translation of Inlands Bestuur and Afdeling, just that. ~Thank you ^꧋ꦩꦣꦪ Fazoffic ( ʖ╎ᓵᔑ∷ᔑ) 13:45, 31 July 2022 (UTC)

Shooting of Brigadier Nofriansyah Yosua Hutabarat

After chancing upon an early revision of this article during New Page Patrol work, I expanded the article based on online media sources (I am a London, UK-based Wikipedian). I think it might be further expanded/improved by other editors with greater/local knowledge of Indonesia, etc. Best wishes. Paul W (talk) 10:21, 18 August 2022 (UTC)

Independence Day

The article Independence Day (Indonesia) would feature on Wikipedia's main page in the "On this day" section if it was up to scratch. It has a maintenance template because it is poorly referenced. Maybe someone from this project could tidy up the article by adding references where appropriate. Once that's done, please ping me and I will elevate the article from ineligible to eligible for August 17. Schwede66 22:59, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

The standard of English is poor, and it is full of peacock terms, so needs a lot of work. The likelihood of any changes being reverted by the usual nationalistic editors is so high, that it's probably not worth the bother. Like the articles about Indonesian TV stations and football teams, attempts at improvements are likely to be a waste of time. Davidelit (Talk) 03:36, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Article about Indonesian national capital relocation to Yogyakarta in 1946 (Discussion)

Before I finished my drafts about the history of Indonesia around the National Revolution period, recently I have googled about "Peristiwa 4 Januari 1946" translated as '4 January 1946 event" which refers to the relocation of Indonesian national capital from Jakarta to Yogyakarta in 1946. I would like to know if this would be suitable for an independent article or not. Please let me know if anyone is interested about this topic and discuss it to decide whether this should be an independent article or merge the topic with another article. Mhatopzz (talk) 12:11, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

I'm sort of on my summer vacation from editing and not very active right now but does it need its own article? Can it be a mention in the articles about Yogyakarta and the National Revolution? However, if you can find an angle I just wanted to say that the title "4 January 1946 event" sounds a bit strange in English. Dan Carkner (talk) 18:09, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

Hey this a noticeboard that used to have at least 3 or 4 editors turn up - maybe they are now all elsewhere...

During the National Revolution - a number of events occurred that could have extra articles, relative to the level of importance and context of the process of the revolution. The move to Yogya looks like something that can be added to other articles, and the I agree with Dan - the title is a no-go for sure. JarrahTree 01:27, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Help needed to fix the mess at Mount Ophir

A prolific LTA with dozens of socks and a massive CIR-problem has removed the redirect target of Mount Ophir to Mount Ledang (which indeed was called "Mount Ophir" by the Brits) and created a weird stub that conflates the Ophir legend with "Mount Ophir" which occasionally appeared in 19th century maps as an alternative name of another mountain, viz. Gunung Pasaman in West Sumatra (mentioned e.g. here[1] by Alexander v. Humboldt).

My idea to resolve this clusterfuck is to create a stub for Gunung Pasaman (or Mount Pasaman?), retarget Mount Ophir back to Mount Ledang as primary target, and add a {{redirect}}-hatnote in Mount Ledang pointing to Mount Pasaman. Can someone help out with good sources for the geo stub? The maps added by the LTA are actually nice so, we just need a few modern sources with some geodata of the mountain. Austronesier (talk) 12:25, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

A good first step would have been blanking the article - it’s a sock created article so no issue. Helps that they cite sources that -obviously- do not mention anything about the claims. Weird folks finding out some coincidental names with old manuscripts will always plague the site, unfortunately. Juxlos (talk) 16:44, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Yes, that's a simple and legitimate first step, I've added the common historical name of Mt. Ledang to the lead, otherwise the redirect appears unmotivated. I rarely create new articles, so I'll put Mount Pasaman aside until there's an unexpected surge of my lazy wiki-ambitions. –Austronesier (talk) 08:30, 25 August 2022 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:It's Showtime Indonesia#Requested move 31 August 2022

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:It's Showtime Indonesia#Requested move 31 August 2022 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. ASUKITE 14:31, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

"Betauia" in Batavia article

Hello folks, the first line of Batavia, Dutch East Indies says "Batavia, also called Batauia in the city's Malay vernacular..." That phrase has been translated into the ID-wiki article too. Is that correct? I haven't seen that spelling before, tried doing various searches for "Kota Batauia" or in Indonesian online digital collections, didn't have much luck. Specific search for Batauia on google books mostly brought up Latin results for some reason. I've heard Betawi of course, but any thoughts on the above? Does it merit being in the first line of the article spelled that way if it doesn't seem to be showing up a lot? It's true that spelling has not been standardized for most of the history of the city, but I would still expect more results... Dan Carkner (talk) 15:02, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

The claim that is was called so "in the city's Malay vernacular" is pure nonsense. The primary source is a Dutch text from 1628, and it contains another variant "Battauia" (corresponding to "Battavia" in many other old sources). Variation between "u" and "v" is also found in Dutch text about the ancient Batavi, there is even an old text that refers to Holland as "battauia"&source=bl&ots=0-dbROgmhs&sig=ACfU3U1zAFfArFrPwi2-qu9Fn8txxUyJNQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjwweX7roP6AhVv_7sIHQP5A3M4FBDoAXoECAIQAw#v=onepage&q="battauia"&f=false "Battauia". I will remove it as an ephemeral spelling undue for the lede. See also @Juxlos' comment in the Mouth Ophir section above, which is a spot-on description of what has happened in Batavia, Dutch East Indies. –Austronesier (talk) 19:09, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

Sounds good, thanks for looking into it and dealing with it. --Dan Carkner (talk) 19:47, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

Komodo dragon FAR

I have nominated Komodo Dragon for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets the featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" in regards to the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. CMD (talk) 16:18, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Correct name to refer to Indonesian individuals in articles about them

I've modified the article about Joko Widodo so that 'Jokowi' is used to refer to him, because that's what most Indonesian sources seem to do and the better English language newspapers too.

I've noticed that articles about other Indonesian figures have similar problems. For example, the article about Abdurrahman Wahid uses 'Wahid' throughout, although that's the name of his father. People seem to think that 'Widodo' and 'Wahid' are surnames, despite the notes at the top of the articles. Strangely, the Javanese and Indonesian Wikipedia articles on Abdurrahman Wahid also partially use the name 'Wahid'.

What is going on here? Could someone with knowledge of Indonesia chip in? Is my thinking correct that the nicknames 'Jokowi' and 'Gus Dur' are the correct names to use in the articles?

Suggestion: should the template {{Indonesian name}} be updated so it explicitly states which name should be used in public discourse to refer to a person? This would at least help editors like me to clean up after other editors' mistakes. —caoimhinoc (talk) 23:55, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

Indonesian here. Didn't know before there's a project specific for Indonesia.

Back to the topic. At least, in Indonesia, we are more often refer to public figure with nickname or firstname instead of surname. For the Indonesian Wikipedia articles, I cannot guarantee that this happened but there's a chance of us translating the article from English instead of writing it from scratch. I never see Gus Dur referred as Wahid in Indonesian newspapers. Jvprawn (talk) 04:09, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

I think the existing template is sufficient - see Megawati Sukarnoputri and Amir Sjarifuddin. One possible format for the Joko Widodo article is {{Indonesian name|patronymic = no|Widodo |Jokowi}} Davidelit (Talk) 05:57, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

{{Indonesian name|patronymic = no|Widodo |Jokowi}} gives the output:

In this Indonesian name, there is no family name nor a patronymic, and the person should be referred to by the given name, Jokowi.

But 'Jokowi' isn't his given name, it's his nickname. I think it would be sensible to have the note explain why 'Jokowi' is used in the article (if that's what is decided). Something like:

In this Indonesian name, there is no family name nor a patronymic, and the person should be referred to by the given name, Joko Widodo. He is also commonly referred to by his nickname. Jokowi. caoimhinoc (talk) 00:21, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

Good point. The Indonesian/Javanese articles were likely translated from English.

So in an English language article, would you personally prefer to see 'Jokowi' or 'Joko Widodo' or does it not matter that much? —caoimhinoc (talk) 00:02, 17 September 2022 (UTC)

'Jokowi' or 'Joko Widodo' would do fine personally. Using last name however would feel distant to me. Jvprawn (talk) 02:23, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

As mentioned already above, the header to the article In this Indonesian name, there is no family name nor a patronymic, and the person should be referred to by the given name, Joko Widodo - and the suggestion to the commonly known nick name be in the header...

Usage in other articles such as Suharto and Sukarno - Pak Harto or Bung Karno come to mind from an earlier generation - In the sukarno and suharto articles a section about the names is no where near the header or lead sentence...

I think the point to be made here is consistency between the headers, so that if nick names are used to make sure that most leaders have the same headers on their articles, where nick names exist.

JarrahTree 03:24, 19 September 2022 (UTC)

Sumitro Djojohadikusumo: FAC

I have nominated Sumitro Djojohadikusumo as a featured article candidate (almost 2 months ago, admittedly). Please join the discussion on whether this article meets the featured article criteria. Juxlos (talk) 07:17, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

FAR for Alfred Russel Wallace

I have nominated Alfred Russel Wallace for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets the featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Delist" in regards to the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. Z1720 (talk) 20:51, 11 September 2022 (UTC)

Featured Article Save Award for Alfred Russel Wallace

There is a Featured Article Save Award nomination at Wikipedia talk:Featured article review/Alfred Russel Wallace/archive1. Please join the discussion to recognize and celebrate editors who helped assure this article would retain its featured status. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 22:50, 8 October 2022 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:The Buddha

The page which had been Gautama Buddha was unsuccessfully proposed for a change to Siddhartha Gautama, then successfully changed to The Buddha, and is now being proposed for a change to Buddha. Your input and expertise would be most welcome at: Talk:The_Buddha#Requested_move_25_November_2022 Best, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 04:16, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

Censorship in Indonesia

Hello folks, I created Censorship in Indonesia today for the Wikipedia Asian Month drive. So far I came up with a pretty basic outline using sources from JSTOR and some other databases but there's plenty of room for me to expand it later. Would be happy if someone can take a look at it for copy editing and to add the Indonesian terms in parentheses where appropriate if there's anything obvious you recognize. My plan for the next time I sit down with it is to find more Indonesian sources for better contextualization of some of the events only mentioned in passing in the outline. Dan Carkner (talk) 02:43, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

@Dan Carkner I think the article should mention Pornography Law (Indonesia) and Internet censorship in Indonesia. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 06:40, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

Thank you. When I have time to sit down and edit it thoroughly I will make sure to incorporate those topics more. --Dan Carkner (talk) 15:24, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

I have not got around to updating it yet but now I see the new Criminal Code also has elements of censorship in it which should be added to the article. If anyone is knowledgeable about it please have a go, otherwise I will try my best to research and write it up in the next while. --Dan Carkner (talk) 17:29, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Indonesian villages

There are a set of new village stubs in the new articles batch of recent:

Kendaldoyong, Petarukan, Pemalang

Kendalrejo, Petarukan, Pemalang

Kendalsari, Petarukan, Pemalang

Klareyan, Petarukan, Pemalang

Loning, Petarukan, Pemalang

Nyamplung Sari, Petarukan, Pemalang

Panjunan, Petarukan, Pemalang

Payung, South Bangka

Pegundan, Petarukan, Pemalang

In this project we have had earlier discussions as to the threshold of notability or credible scope of having all of Indonesian villages in the project.

As we do not have a dedicated admin in this project - we may well have a problem if we have any answering back against the argument that wikipedia and this project might not just be able to contain a stub about every village.... Anyone who can find the diffs of previous discussions are encouraged to resurrect them please. JarrahTree 11:43, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

There was some previous discussion back in 2019. I would highlight that WP:GEOLAND presumes notability of villages that have legal recognition. Rather than preventing the creation of such stubs, I would encourage a more structural approach in thinking how we can get a list or some template box to make navigation easier to maintain those stubs. —Arsonal (talk + contribs)— 15:41, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Per Arsonal and myself in 2019, WP:GEOLAND applies, these villages are notable by consensus. I also would note that these "every villages" are probably more populated than any random town in the US Midwest or in Australia anywhere really – quality issues aside, I do not see any reason against their creation. Juxlos (talk) 17:02, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Oops, thanks for that, much appreciated - I realise I was remembering the conversations before that - where the earlier stage of wikipedia the geoland principle was not endorsed as it stands now.

The principle changes and evolves over time, for instance the individual railway station inherent notability has only recently been over-turned.

JarrahTree 22:50, 11 January 2023 (UTC)

Photo montage in infobox for Jakarta

User:Ckfasdf removed the photo montage in the infobox of Jakarta which was added by an IP user. Ckfasdf cited this discussion for the removal, where it was agreed that Indonesian provinces should not have pictures in their infoboxes. However, in that discussion User:Juxlos said that Jakarta may be an exception as it is more of a city. Other articles for important cities with special province/state-like status, such as Kuala Lumpur (a Federal Territory), Metro Manila (a region), and Washington, D.C. (a federal district) have pictures in their infoboxes. Should Jakarta have pictures in its infobox? I think this should be an exception, as Jakarta is a city with province-level government, the administrative cities and regency in it are administered by appointed, instead of elected, mayors and regents, and the governor's office is the Jakarta City Hall. This exception should not apply to other Indonesian provinces. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 06:05, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

@Hanif Al Husaini: lets continue the discussion on Talk:Jakarta#Why photo montage and the flag is removed ?. Ckfasdf (talk) 08:24, 18 January 2023 (UTC)

@Hanif Al Husaini: this problem has been discussed in Talk:Jakarta montage photos can be displayed, but not with the flag Baqotun0023 (talk) 10:22, 23 January 2023 (UTC)

Wikimania 2023 : Singapore, 16-19 August

Wikimedians! You are highly encouraged to apply for travel scholarship for Wikimedia Movement's largest gathering, Wikimania 2023. Wikimania 2023 will happen in Singapore and online from 16-19 August, 2023. There is a pre-conference on the 15th and a post-conference on the 20th. It is back on our region since Hong Kong in 2013. Application deadline is on 5 February 2023 at 23:59 AoE. Regular registration will happen around May 2023. --Exec8 (talk) Exec8 (talk) 07:38, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

Would it be possible to explain "AoE" for the rest of us? Wiktionary suggests "Axis of evil" which I feel may not be quite right. Thanks. Davidelit (Talk) 07:44, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

That's Anywhere on Earth. dwadieff ✉ 08:34, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Japanese government-issued Philippine peso#Requested move 29 January 2023

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Japanese government-issued Philippine peso#Requested move 29 January 2023 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. —hueman1 (talk • contributions) 01:01, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Photo montages in province infobox

Hello there - montages have been added back to the province infoboxes. There was a solid consensus Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Indonesia/Archive 9#Province infobox photos... to not have single or montage photos in infoboxes.

The addition of the photos has been by a single editor. It looks like a lot of work, but I still recommended they be removed. --Merbabu (talk) 08:39, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Agree with Merbabu, still also recommend to remove them. Jakarta is an exception though. Ckfasdf (talk) 09:48, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Agree on Jakarta - as a Wikipedia topic, it is primarily about the city not the province.

(Personally I’m in favour of single images rather than montages for city articles - but that’s a different discussion that I know won’t get far. Ha ha ) —Merbabu (talk) 21:26, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

IP user deleted image Nusantara City in Infobox

there are IP users who delete photos in infobox because per consensus, so is this correct or are there exceptions like Jakarta? Whatsup236 (talk) 06:32, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

That consensus is only applies to Provinces. Jakarta is an exception for that consensus since while it is actually a province, it's more like a city by nature. And, we don't have similar consensus for cities/regencies or other subdivisions yet. If necessary, you can discuss it on that article talk page. Ckfasdf (talk) 07:04, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Apparently, Nusantara is excluded because it is on a par with Washington, D.C., Brasília, Putrajaya, and also Ankara. (I only recommend it, and the consensus still applies in each province) Baqotun0023 (talk) 07:10, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Ok, I'll restore the image as before Whatsup236 (talk) 07:16, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Gambang (instrument)#Requested move 21 February 2023

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Gambang (instrument)#Requested move 21 February 2023 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. Fuzheado | Talk 03:29, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Why regional flag in Provincial infobox was removed?

I've looked at the consensus archives before, saying that regional flags don't have legal status, but in fact, Indonesia provincial flag have legal status. You can look at "PERATURAN PEMERINTAH REPUBLIK INDONESIA NOMOR 77 TAHUN 2007"

Article 2, Regional _{(Province, City, Regency)} identity includes: (a) seal; (b) flag; (c) the flag of the regional head; and (d) hymn.

Article 4 Section 1, The regional flag design is rectangular in shape with a ratio of 3:2 which contains the regional seal.

Article 10 Section 1-4, (1) Regional flags may be used as a companion to the state flag on official regional government buildings, gates, inter-provincial, regency and city borders, as well as badges or pictures and/or clothing accessories. (2) The regional flag used as a companion to the state flag, must not be the same size or larger than the state flag. (3) Regional flags can be used and placed in official regional head meetings with foreign partners/agencies/institutions. (4) The use and placement of regional flags in official meetings as referred to in paragraph (3) is carried out as a companion to the state flag.

Han4299 (talk) 07:23, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

@Han4299: PP No 77 Tahun 2007 serve as Guideline for regional flag as specified on article 4 section 1 (quoted above), it didn't explicitly specify regional flag for xxx region. For example on Jakarta case, refer to PP No 7 tahun 2007, we know it's regional flag will contains Jakarta seal. However, there is no regulation that specify the background color used. And all other provinces also have the same issue. Hence, it's failing on WP:V. For other example, let's look at flag of Central Java, on Commons it was yellow background, but on this picture along with other regional flags, it uses white background.

For your reference, if we look up Perda Kabupaten Banjarnegara No 1 tahun 2022 the article 6 and annex II clearly specify the background color for regional flag of Banjarnegara regency. So this is conform with WP:V.

Aside from WP:V issue, I agree with Austronesier comment on previous "discussion regional flag technically is just a piece of cloth that allows to hiss the coat-of-arms on a flagpost". I don't think we will be missing much if we left out the regional flag on the infobox. Afterall, in Indonesia, regional flag is just regional logo placed on rectangular piece of cloth. Ckfasdf (talk) 08:19, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

Sorry for being late to the discussion (I forgot about this topic), I was told to be redirected here so here I am. I will just re-said what I already said. TL:DR they should be reinstated (personally disappointed to hear that the consensus was already made rather quickly), as they are official but I agree a reference should be added when available but not always. as for the photo montages I think they are fine as long as its not too large, I have seen some that have up to 12 pictures iirc (too much imho) 6 or 8 pictures would suffice. Here is what I said before:

Can't help but notices all the flags from the Provinces wikipage (and more) have been removed, while I agree some Wikipage have too much images but I have to disagree on the removal of flags as they do have Legal basis (as mentioned above) and they do exist on Government operated sites if you are willing to look for specific news/stories article. Provincial/Regional flags are placed next to the National flag often seen in Governor's Office/room (here), and respective regional Government building's courtyard (here), they are also sometimes placed on meeting halls (here), visitation/guest room (here), entrances, Town Hall (here), and even conference rooms (here). Additionally as mentioned before no one have good citations for what the Flag of DKI Jakarta's background is and even found some inconsistencies, I would personally use whatever colour is flown/used by the officials (White) in said Official rooms, etc. and ignore the other one (Black) for after a quick google search the source came from a seller in an E-Commerce website online, hardly official. For those reasons I think the Flags should be reinstated. On a similar subject the logo/symbol/CoA seems supposed to have a green coloured Stem for the bottom left one as seen on the images I mentioned.

FYI Provincial flags are more like state flags in the US imho and they have it on their infobox, after all as some have said before Indonesia is a unitary state with federal-like components ever since the reform era started. Provincial flags are also placed on the left side of the podium/stage or right side from the audience POV. Did some little checking and other countries have provincial flags on their wikipages too, or in Prefectures for Japan's case for which I see no reason why we shouldn't as well, as it is informative as it is harmless. And as for Flags are just CoA with a rectangle cloth with coloured background... well pretty much sums up most of the world's State/Provincial/City flags. Or if its too cluttered I disagree as a flag would only take one space and that space is already made available right next to the CoA meaning it will not make the Infobox any bigger. From my understanding of the consensus it is supposed to be temporary, as it is nearing 3 years since it was first made I think the topic should be reponed and flags should be reinstated. -EvoSwatch (talk) 07:27, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

I'd suggest you to create new section to reopen the flag discussion.Ckfasdf (talk) 23:59, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Project-independent quality assessments

Quality assessments by Wikipedia editors rate articles in terms of completeness, organization, prose quality, sourcing, etc. Most wikiprojects follow the general guidelines at Wikipedia:Content assessment, but some have specialized assessment guidelines. A recent Village pump proposal was approved and has been implemented to add a |class= parameter to {{WikiProject banner shell}}, which can display a general quality assessment for an article, and to let project banner templates "inherit" this assessment.

No action is required if your wikiproject follows the standard assessment approach. Over time, quality assessments will be migrated up to {{WikiProject banner shell}}, and your project banner will automatically "inherit" any changes to the general assessments for the purpose of assigning categories.

However, if your project has decided to "opt out" and follow a non-standard quality assessment approach, all you have to do is modify your wikiproject banner template to pass {{WPBannerMeta}} a new |QUALITY_CRITERIA=custom parameter. If this is done, changes to the general quality assessment will be ignored, and your project-level assessment will be displayed and used to create categories, as at present. Aymatth2 (talk) 15:09, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Provincial CoA on new provinces

There have been several instances of people adding supposed-coat of arms of new provinces in Papua which are mostly unofficial or "suggestions". I have not seen any actually being conflirmed other than Highland Papua (which is derived based on one photo of a government building from Wamena. And it does not seem to have legal status yet). Anyone else can confirm if these new provinces have already got their symbols described legally or at least seen in the wild? Nyanardsan (talk) 03:58, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

IIRC, out of 3 new provinces in Papua, only Central Papua that have officially declared their CoA. source. Ckfasdf (talk) 11:59, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

as of 19 april 2023, CoA of Central Papua is not officially ratified yet. The draft is still being discussed between regional govt of Central Papua and Ministry of Home Affairs. Ckfasdf (talk) 07:37, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

its not a draft, its already official.

“Kami Provinsi pertama dari empat DOB yang sudah memiliki logo,” tegas Ribka. Sebagaimana kata Ribka, sudah ada Pergub nomor 15 tahun 2023 tentang lambang daerah. Dengan demikian, diharapkan bulan depan Aparatur Sipil Negara (ASN) bajunya sudah dipasang logo tersebut". - ceposonline.com

secondly, in the draft itself there is a word TETAP, which means those specific pasal (about the logo meaning) won't be changed at all in the final version

third, local government rarely upload their law on the internet, this draft is the only one we have for now and probably forever

i created the article Armorial of Indonesia, i know what i'm doing Afif Brika1 (talk) 15:51, 19 April 2023 (UTC)

Ok, my mistake. It seems that statement is taken from this link. I'll update description on Commons, since previously I only read desc on Commons (which only shows the draft of that pergub. Ckfasdf (talk) 01:22, 20 April 2023 (UTC)

Free Republic of Nias

There is an AfD for this article ongoing, but it is difficult for contributors who do not know Indonesian to evaluate the notability and reliability of its sources since they are all non English. Help would be appreciated. small jars tc 18:04, 22 May 2023 (UTC)

Verification for Ragnar Oratmangoen article

The Wikipedia article for Ragnar Oratmangoen claims that he is a Muslim of Indonesian origin, referencing a source written in Indonesian, so I attempted to add Oratmangoen to the "Dutch Muslims" category.

However, another Wikipedian undid my revision because I had no English sources claiming that Oratmangoen is a Muslim. Could an Indonesian-speaking person look at the source given in Oratmangoen's article and confirm whether he is a Muslim or not? If he is, please add him to the "Dutch Muslims" category and mention that there are Indonesian-language sources to support this in the edit summary. M89565c (talk) 18:56, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Non-English is accepted per Wikipedia:NOENG. And refer to reference in the article itself, https://www.indosport.com/sepakbola/amp/20200716/oratmangoen-penyerang-muslim-keturunan-indonesia-yang-main-di-belanda#aoh=16205074906365, it was mentioned that he is most likely Muslim because he put Alhamdulillah on his instragram Bio. Ckfasdf (talk) 08:16, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

In my opinion after reading the article he probably is Muslim, but this sports site seems like somewhat a poor quality news source and it would be nice to get something a bit more solid. You know, like ones that verify facts with a follow-up rather than speculating. Dan Carkner (talk) 14:09, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

That's kind of difficult. Indonesian source (even reputable news source) all referring to his social media account in which he said things that only moslem usually says (such as Alhamdulillah and Eid Mubarak, Taqabbalallahu Minna Wa Minkum). So.. it's still kind of speculating but more of educated guess. Ckfasdf (talk) 15:09, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

Yes, unfortunately there is a large market of Indonesian news sources that are not very rigorous and when it comes to celebrity topics they are often the only easy-to-find source. Still problematic in terms of making assertions on wikipedia though. Dan Carkner (talk) 15:19, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

Thank you both for your help. M89565c (talk) 17:23, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

English translation of Ejaan yang disempurnakan

There's discussion regarding English translation of Ejaan yang disempurnakan on Talk:Perfected Spelling (Indonesian)#Enhanced, Perfected, Improved?. Looking forward to your input. Ckfasdf (talk) 08:10, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

The discussion is actually with an earlier post from a never visit again editor some time back, four and half years ago...

The first reference that I encounter in a dictionary - (definitely not a google check) -

States and uses Updated and improved spelling - I see no evidence to see why there is in any use in utilizing perfected or revised, unless I might be missing something in some way. JarrahTree 11:17, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

Yea.. It was from discussion 4 years ago, but for quite sometime EYD was translated in WP as "Enhanced Spelling" until few weeks ago, where @Bebasnama decide to replace it. And makes me think about it. Ckfasdf (talk) 16:10, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

@JarrahTree: The usage of "Perfected Spelling" can be found on the following books: Mapping Asia: Cartographic Encounters Between East and West, Language, Nation and Development in Southeast Asia, Spelling and Society: The Culture and Politics of Orthography Around the World, Focus on Indonesia, Historical Dictionary of Indonesia, and many more. It's surprisingly easy to find reference that translate EYD as "Perfected Spelling". Ckfasdf (talk) 16:21, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

As I said, I dont do google, I have and use hard copies of books and dictionaries and perfected is not used. As a native speaker in english, and a very very poor user of Indonesian, I thinkthe notion of 'perfected' is wrong, by implication and inherent understanding of the usage of the word in english. But then that's one opinion. I am disappointed others have not offered their opnion. too often these discussions do not benefit from just two editors, the more the merrier... JarrahTree 03:58, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

A Google search is good in order to find out if a term/title etc. has some prevalence. We can scrutinze the search results and differentiate between significant usage in qualitiy sources and random findings in lesser sources. That said, I can see qualitiy sources in Ckfasdf's list. I could add Jim Sneddon's The Indonesian Language: Its History and Role in Modern Society, UNSW Press.

But then, we should do same for alternative translation efforts like "Enhanced spelling" etc.

Personally, I think we need to go one step back. Have you noticed that almost all sources mention the Indonesian term first, and then offer a translation for it? This means, that the primary term actually is Ejaan yang disempurnakan or its acronym EYD. I know, we have WP:USEENGLISH, but if something is usually referred to by its non-English name in common English parlance, then the non-English name is the common name (like, has anyone of you ever used anything else but Pusat Bahasa or Badan Bahasa?).

And @JT, don't feel disappointed. It's much more frustrating to combat utter fuckwittery in underwatched/undercurated ethnicity-related pages :) @Ckfasdf is a gem for being one of the few to support me when they see what's going on. –Austronesier (talk) 09:05, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

In that case, I appreciate both Ckfasdf and Austronesier's comments, and have no problem with which we way we go... JarrahTree 09:18, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Just my opinion and I don't have a strong feeling on which way it should go on Wikipedia, but I took a few years of Indonesian language courses in the West and do not recall ever hearing Perfected Spelling in any course, although maybe in a textbook it was printed somewhere. After that however in books and articles it was the most common translation I came across for EYD. To me it's a unique but acceptable literal translation that is commonly used but I'm not fussed if the group feels otherwise. In writing Wiki articles I do sometimes find it awkward to spell out either Perfected Spelling: EYD: or Van Ophuijsen Spelling System: in the intro when offering alternate spellings, and sometimes I feel "pre-1948 spelling" or "pre-independence spelling" or other time-based ways are clearer for the casual reader, but those have their flaws too. Dan Carkner (talk) 22:05, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for comment @Austronesier, @JT, @Dan Carkner. IMO, further discussion should take place in Talk:Perfected Spelling (Indonesian)#Enhanced, Perfected, Improved?. Looking forward to your input there. Ckfasdf (talk) 09:05, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

Provincial flags and why they should be reinstated.

I think flags such as provincial ones should be reinstated. Reason being they are legally exist and legit (albeit its a little tricky to cite the specific laws). Flags would also not overflow the Infobox as they have its own separate section that occupies the slot next to the Coat of Arms. I surfed the wikipedia a little bit and found that Provinces of France, Prefectures of Japan, and States of the United States, etc. have their flags displayed on the infobox. Not sure why would we be the odd's one out in this case.

Hence I will repeat my self by reiterating what I previously said before:

I see no reason why we shouldn't add flags as well, as it is informative as it is harmless. And as for Flags are just CoA with a rectangle cloth with coloured background... well pretty much sums up most of the world's State/Provincial/City flags. Or if its too cluttered I disagree as a flag would only take one space and that space is already made available right next to the CoA meaning it will not make the Infobox any bigger. From my understanding of the consensus it is supposed to be temporary, as it is nearing 3 years since it was first made I think the topic should be reopened and flags should be reinstated (at least the ones we can confirm of its existence, accurate)

Flags I can confirm are the ones with link:

Sumatra (7/10 Provinces)

Aceh, North Sumatra, West Sumatra, Riau (different colour), Riau Islands, Jambi (different colour), South Sumatra, Bengkulu, Bangka Belitung, Lampung (different colour).

Java and Nusa Tenggara (8/9 Provinces)

Banten, Jakarta, West Java, Central Java, Yogyakarta, East Java, Bali (different colour), West Nusa Tenggara, East Nusa Tenggara.

Kalimantan (4/5 Provinces)

West Kalimantan, Central Kalimantan, South Kalimantan, East Kalimantan (different colour), North Kalimantan.

Sulawesi and Maluku (7/8 Provinces)

West Sulawesi, South Sulawesi, Southeast Sulawesi, Central Sulawesi, Gorontalo, North Sulawesi, Maluku, North Maluku (different colour).

Papua (3/6 Provinces)

Southwest Papua, West Papua, Papua (different colour), Highland Papua, Central Papua, South Papua.

As usual I look forward to hear everyone's thoughts on this. EvoSwatch (talk) 05:25, 11 June 2023 (UTC)

The issue with provincial flags was "Verifiability". New provinces like in province in Papua, don't have this issue as their logo regulation also includes information on provincial flag and its background color. But for older provinces, the problem still the same. IMO, based on Evoswatch info above, The next question is whether we can accept provincial flags shown in governor's office as reference to resolve "verifiability" issue. Ckfasdf (talk) 09:53, 12 June 2023 (UTC)

I personally believe so, being hoisted and placed in the Governor's office would make it being used under official capacity. Its certainly tricky and its not the best source but its the best we got until those regulations surfaced. EvoSwatch (talk) 05:56, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

Improving Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Indonesia-related_articles#Names

I think that section should be improved. However, I myself don't know what the improved guidelines would look like. We can maybe try gathering ideas here.

On second mention, Western names generally only use surname (MOS:SURNAME). For Indonesian names, that's usually not always the case. I checked AP Stylebook, it only has guidelines for Arabic, Chinese, Korean, Portuguese, Russian, and Spanish names, there's no guidelines for Indonesian names.

A journalist on this tweet (that Twitter thread is worth to read by the way) claim to have made a style guide for Indonesian name. But sadly that guidelines is not publicly available (tweet). (Someone can probably ask her?) Hddty (talk) 05:45, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

New update on Pemboewan

Guys, I found some recent updates regarding this article (although it is still primary source).

• Samuda (or Semoeda) Allegedly was once the capital of Pemboewan during the reign of Djaja Ngagara. however, the government only runs for One Month.
• Ujung Pandaran is suspected to have been part of Pemboewan during Raden Moeda's government. The separation of Pandaran from Pemboewan and its integration into the Kewedanan Sampit is still being debated.
• There is a piece of land in the northern part of Seruyan (now part of Melaw Regency, West Kalimantan Province) which is suspected to have been part of Pemboewan at the beginning of the tenure of Kjai Ngabei Djaja-negara.

I have updated the regional map file, and this time the map is my own creation. ~Thank You ^꧋ꦩꦣꦪ Fazoffic ( ʖ╎ᓵᔑ∷ᔑ) 22:23, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

@Fazoffic: Probably you can imagine how eager we are to see the citation of the primary source you mention, especially if we really are supposed to give you any response here. Thank you. –Austronesier (talk) 09:02, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

. Otherwise, my primary source says that Pemboewan was a district in what is today Merauke. Juxlos (talk) 13:16, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

Maybe you're starting to think weird about this. well, at least I gave an update. It's up to you how you want to respond. ~Thank you ^꧋ꦩꦣꦪ Fazoffic ( ʖ╎ᓵᔑ∷ᔑ) 14:01, 24 July 2022 (UTC)

Haha, I can't believe time has gone by so fast, and this discussion reminds me of how novice I used to be. ▪︎ Fazoffic _{( ʖ╎ᓵᔑ∷ᔑ)} 09:50, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

Enhanced Spelling of the Indonesian Language

Unfortunately the article about EYD has been moved to Enhanced Spelling of the Indonesian Language without consensus. At least a few of us seemed to agree that Perfected Spelling, although it sounds strange in English, is the Wikipedia:COMMONNAME; see Talk:Enhanced_Spelling_of_the_Indonesian_Language#Enhanced,_Perfected,_Improved?. As it has been moved several times this year I'm not clear on what the procedure is to address this. Dan Carkner (talk) 17:33, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

The sort-of-consensus for "Perfected Spelling" fell victim to an innocent technical move request ("Perfected Spelling (Indonesian)" formally violates our disambiguation rules), which resulted in Xth page move within a few month. I can't blame the admin who restored the long-standing title for the sake of stability.

The way to go now is WP:RM#CM. Be equipped with good sources for your suggested title and all potential alternatives, ideally with metrics. Try e.g. "Perfected spelling"+"Indonesian" etc. in Google Scholar. You will find that "Enhanced Spelling"+"Indonesian" superficially wins, but only in the last 5 years or so, when Indonesian graduate students started to be required to publish English papers and have found "Enhanced Spelling" in WP as the English term for EYD. A typical case of WP-induced prevalence, which is a more subtle form of citogenesis.

But if you prune for high-quality sources from Indonesian and international scholars, things might look different. Anton Moeliono and Harimurti Kridalaksana used "Improved spelling", Jim Sneddon "Perfected spelling", Husen Abas "Revised orthography", and so on. I will support whatever comes out from a thorough survey that should be done before the actual move request. –Austronesier (talk) 18:35, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. Will try to do my homework on this matter. If it ends up staying where it is now, it won't be the end of the world, but I do think it should be an informed decision. Dan Carkner (talk) 18:47, 23 July 2023 (UTC)

Credibility bot

As this is a highly active WikiProject, I would like to introduce you to Credibility bot. This is a bot that makes it easier to track source usage across articles through automated reports and alerts. We piloted this approach at Wikipedia:Vaccine safety and we want to offer it to any subject area or domain. We need your support to demonstrate demand for this toolkit. If you have a desire for this functionality, or would like to leave other feedback, please endorse the tool or comment at WP:CREDBOT. Thanks! Harej (talk) 17:36, 5 August 2023 (UTC)

Help rebuilding the article Salakanagara (a mythical kingdom in West Java)

That article was fairly well fleshed out. The only problem is that it had poor sources and as a result described as facts things that are (mostly) a 17th-century reconstruction of what must have happened sixteen centuries ago. It also included theories that are, hmm, let’s say "optimistic" - such as having the Egypt-based savant Ptolemy travelling in person to Java (at a time where going from Egypt to India was already a long and dangerous voyage, let alone pushing to the West Indies).

I violently cut it down to a fairly short stub with basically a single scholarly source that says (essentially) that the kingdom is a myth. (I might have lost some valuable stuff in the process within all the cruft.) A Google Scholar search for "Salakanagara" seems to find some more literature on the subject but most sources are in Bahasa Indonesia (which I cannot read and online translators do not seem to work well). Tigraan^{Click here for my talk page ("private" contact)} 11:59, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Women in Green's 5th Edit-a-thon

Hello WikiProject Indonesia:

WikiProject Women in Green is holding a month-long Good Article Edit-a-thon event in October 2023!

Running from October 1 to 31, 2023, WikiProject Women in Green (WiG) is hosting a Good Article (GA) edit-a-thon event with the theme Around the World in 31 Days! All experience levels welcome. Never worked on a GA project before? We'll teach you how to get started. Or maybe you're an old hand at GAs – we'd love to have you involved! Participants are invited to work on nominating and/or reviewing GA submissions related to women and women's works (e.g., books, films) during the event period. We hope to collectively cover article subjects from at least 31 countries (or broader international articles) by month's end. GA resources and one-on-one support will be provided by experienced GA editors, and participants will have the opportunity to earn a special WiG barnstar for their efforts.

We hope to see you there!

Grnrchst (talk) 13:10, 21 September 2023 (UTC)

Source dispute on Bersiap

I don't know the first thing about Indonesian history, so hoping an experienced editor who does can take a look at something. A mixture of accounts and IPs (possibly one person? unclear) have made a bunch of edits to the Bersiap article, apparently incensed by the inclusion of a source from one particular scholar. I do not know anything about the validity of the objection (regardless of the scholar's reputation, it seems to me it's just being used to source the fact that the Bersiap is known by different names in different parts of Indonesia), and their manner of addressing it has involved only deleting half of reference templates at a time and repeatedly reverting.

The page is now semi-protected, but the discussion continues on the talk page. This person/people's rather chaotic approach continues, including logging out of accounts halfway through discussion threads and using very uncivil language. Hoping someone can weigh in on the substance of the issue, so we can then focus on handling the disruptive behaviour aspect. Thanks in advance! AntiDionysius (talk) 16:46, 26 September 2023 (UTC)

I have some experience with these sources and have edited this article in the past, I will try and take a look thanks. Dan Carkner (talk) 14:20, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

OK I can see now that it's (apparently) the same editor I came across before who wants only one perspective to be represented in the article. That's not appropriate about a historical topic with different viewpoints on it but I'll have to come back to it later when I have more time to dig into sources. Dan Carkner (talk) 14:39, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Requested move at Talk:Army Strategic Reserve Command#Requested move 15 September 2023

There is a requested move discussion at Talk:Army Strategic Reserve Command#Requested move 15 September 2023 that may be of interest to members of this WikiProject. – robertsky (talk) 15:41, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Suggested move discussion for EYD

Follow-up to my thread above, I finally did a bit of research and suggested a move for Indonesian orthography. Dan Carkner (talk) 17:44, 1 October 2023 (UTC)

Dutch East Indies people categories

Hi folks, I'm trying to figure out what went on here and who initiated it but I admit I'm not good at figuring out where to see the history of speedy category moves or what discussion took place after it's been closed. Category:Dutch people of the Dutch East Indies was apparently speedy moved to Category:Dutch expatriates in the Dutch East Indies which strikes me as worse. Were all (European-born) Dutch people expatriates there? But it was part of their own territory wasn't it? And how about Dutch people born and living in the Indies, are they now part of this category?

Perhaps there are not enough articles to be fussing about this but it strikes me there are different overlapping concepts: ethnically "Dutch" people in the Indies (may include Indos, may be born in Europe or Asia or South Africa etc), Dutch citizens in the Indies (may include Indos and later others who applied, excluding German and other citizens living and working equally as Europeans in Indies), and people with European status in the Indies (may include those non Dutch citizens, is perhaps the most omnipresent and important legal status for someone as compared to the others).

Any thoughts? Dan Carkner (talk) 14:17, 27 September 2023 (UTC)

Added a request for it to be moved back here. Dan Carkner (talk) 14:40, 30 September 2023 (UTC)

Pity this noticeboard discussion point is bit like an echo chamber of late... JarrahTree 01:08, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Kuta (Lombok) and Mandalika (resort area) - merge?

I recently travelled to Lombok and reviewed some of Wikipedia's articles about the island, notably those relating to Kuta and Mandalika (also the nearby Mandalika International Street Circuit). The Kuta and Mandalika resort articles are essentially about the same small area, and I think they should be merged into one - perhaps named 'Kuta Mandalika' (I saw some large street signage using this name). What do other editors think? Paul W (talk) 18:25, 25 October 2023 (UTC)

New Sin Po

Can someone help me make sense of this edit? They have added a mention that Sin Po continues as a digital publication, and the reference is a link to the website of the new publication which does seem legit--but is it appropriate to frame it in the article as a continuation and not simply a new publication half a century later that adopted a historical name? thanks. Dan Carkner (talk) 17:03, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

It is certainly inappropriate to frame it in wikivoice as a revival, with no other information on links between the two and no independent source. A bit better would be saying a new publication has adopted the name of the previous one, but even then an independent source would be preferable. CMD (talk) 17:27, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

That is my feeling about the situation as well. Dan Carkner (talk) 20:15, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

The added sentence has many tense issues - it is bizarre. The sense of the added material does not fit with the article anyway...CMD suggestion is good JarrahTree 01:37, 2 November 2023 (UTC)

I removed it with a note the statement could be restored if secondary sources explained the connection. Dan Carkner (talk) 13:19, 2 November 2023 (UTC)