Talk:Vermouth

storing vermouth

does vermouth need to be refrigerated after opening?

I was wondering the same thing, as well as how long vermouth typically lasts after it's opened. KenFehling (talk) 21:51, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

no it does not need to be refrigerated after opening --94.36.80.16 (talk) 21:21, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

For 30 years, I've not refrigerated it. It lasts quite nicely. Frankly, the worst that can happen is it turns to vinegar, which isn't really possible, due to the sugar content. As an example, I have bottles that were opened a decade ago on the shelf and are QUITE fine.76.98.121.53 (talk) 04:21, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

I created a subheading in the Modern Use Section for the storage of Vermouth. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Oskar0430 (talk • contribs) 16:41, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Looks like advertising

Looks like a plug for a brand. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.5.245.62 (talk) 23:22, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

This section needs to be edited and possibly made into an additional subsection to maybe discuss the different variety of vermouth out there, rater than name dropping throughout the article. Possibly pulling the different sentences/citations and creating a section out of that?  — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mplsstylist (talk • contribs) 00:28, 18 November 2013 (UTC) '

Agreed. Having pictures of specific brands and then using them as examples throughout the article( with links) is advertising. Leaving the pictures but removing the links. Lugan2k (talk) 08:41, 4 December 2016 (UTC)

Purpose of Herbs

The article says that the herbs are introduced "to mask the flavor of inferior wine," but this seems quite ignorant of the cultural purpose of aromatized drinks generally, akin to the statement I often heard growing up that the chief use of spices in the tropics is "to mask the flavor of spoiled meat".

Spices and herbs often have medicinal and psychoactive properties perceived as "tonic" (if not "legitimately" medicinal) to their ingesters, and they are sought out as food in their own right. This is indeed the main reason I (and many of the people in cultures that make these drinks) drink apertifs, cocktails and herbal digestifs. It might be more correct, but only slightly more, to say that here it is the wine that is the vehicle for the delicious herbs and spices, because their flavors are sometimes better transmitted in alcoholic solutions than purely aqueous ones. What I'm getting at is, the whole package is important.

In any case it makes more sense to use a pedestrian wine for these aromatic concoctions, just as you would use a lower grade of olive oil in a situation where the delicacy of extra virgin oil would be lost. But it's not about masking, any more than the curry in my masala is there to mask the flavor of chickpeas, folks. If someone wants to drink inferior wine, there are a lot cheaper options than proper vermouth. Nimmolo (talk) 20:29, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

So, chefs worldwide spice their dishes because the meat is spoiled or to hide an ingredient you do not like? Wrong! Spices are added, ALSO, to ENHANCE flavor. In the case of vermouth, they add flavors used in various cocktails, but I also cook with it, to enhance the dish and personally enjoy the flavor of the spices. Did one mull wine or even cider to hide a bad taste? Or to enhance and warm in the winter? But then, I'm a reformed chef and KNOW why spices are used and it's NOT to hide the taste of chickpeas (which I personally LIKE).Wzrd1 (talk) 04:30, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

Article rewrite and expansion

I have rewritten and expanded the article here. Any interested parties, please feel welcome to review it and make any suggestions. In a day or so I'll transfer it over to this article, then nominate it for Good Article consideration. Cla68 (talk) 05:57, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Done. Cla68 (talk) 12:16, 20 May 2011 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Vermouth/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 06:19, 11 June 2011 (UTC) GA review – see WP:WIAGA for criteria

1. Is it reasonably well written?

   A. Prose quality:

   Consider using the word that instead of which in the sentence "The word "vermouth" comes from the German word Wermut for wormwood which has been used as an ingredient in the drink over its history.
   Consider using a word other than "Also" in "Also, vermouth comes in various colors, but primarily pale or red."
   The sentence "The first sweet vermouth was introduced in 1786 in Turin by merchant Antonio Benedetto Carpano." was flagged when checking in Microsoft Word. It suggested that it read "Merchant Antonio Benedetto Carpano introducted the first sweet vermouth in 1786 in Turin".
   The sentance "The first pale, dry vermouth was produced in France by Joseph Noilly sometime between 1800 and 1813." was flagged when checked in Microsoft Word. It stated that it was a fragment sentence.
   The word liquour is misspelled in "The popularity of vermouth as a medicinal liquour waned by end of the 19th century."
   The sentence "The popularity of vermouth as a medicinal liquour waned by end of the 19th century." was flagged when checked in Microsoft Word. It stated that it was a fragment sentence.
   The usage of the words "time period" in the sentence "The advent of cocktails around this same time period, however, found a new use for the drink." is redundant; consider using one or the other.
   Consider using a comma after the word grapes in the sentence "From these grapes a low-alcohol white wine is produced by vermouth manufacturers."
   Consider using the word bitterer rather than more bitter in the sentence "The label "French vermouth" generally refers to pale, dry vermouths that are more bitter than sweet vermouths."
   The word digestifs is misspelled in "Most cocktails using vermouth, and when drinking vermouth by itself, are apéritifs, although sometimes drunk as digestifs."
   The sentence "A Manhattan cocktail with its components." was flagged when checked in Microsoft Word. It stated it was a fragment sentence.
   Consider using a comma after the word vermouths in the sentence "Cinzano and Martini & Rossi also produce rose′ vermouths which are mainly distributed in Italy and France."
   *Corrections made. Cla68 (talk) 06:37, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
   **Issue resolved --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 07:55, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

   B. MoS compliance for lead, layout, words to watch, fiction, and lists:

   Lead:
   Layout:
   Words to Watch:
   Famous is listed in WTW and is used in the sentence "Mixologists found that vermouth was the ideal mixer for many cocktails, including two of the original, most famous cocktails of all time, the martini (beginning in the 1860s) and the Manhattan (beginning around 1874)." Consider using another word or changing the sentence to do without it.
   Notable is listed in WTW and is used in the sentence "otable cocktails using either dry or sweet vermouth or both include the Americano,[16] Bronx,[17] Gibson,[18] Manhattan,[19] Negroni,[20] Rob Roy,[21] and Rose.[22]" Consider using another word or changing the sentence to do without it.
   Ficiton:
   List:
   *Done. Cla68 (talk) 06:46, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
   **Issue resolved --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 23:02, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

2. Is it factually accurate and verifiable?

   A. References to sources:

   In the Etymology and History, Production, ingrediants and flavors, Beverage, and Cooking sections whole paragraphs list sources to support the paragraph at the end of the article. Consider supporting significant, or even each, sentence(s) within the paragraph with supporting references.

   B. Citation of reliable sources where necessary:

   Reference number 3 uses a website, that may or may not fall under WP:RS, consider using a published dictionary, or its internet equivalent.
   Reference number 3 also cites Wiktionary, per discussion here it is not a reliable source and falls under WP:CIRCULAR.
   Issues resolved. --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 23:02, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
   Reference number 30 citing Campaign, assuming good faith is a reliable source; however the statement used in the reference ""The Week: Advertising News – Smirnoff is Power's top drink" states that in 2010 Martini was ranked fourth on the list of leading global drinks brands" should be verified.
   A search of the webpage campaignlive.co.uk does not find the article stated. Please correct, find a link to the article, or another reliable source. --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 23:02, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
   I found that article via Infotrac. I just checked Infotrac again, and it is still there. To improve the citation, I added the page number. Do you have access to Infotrac? You can usually access it at a public or university library. Cla68 (talk) 05:41, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
   I do not have access to Infotrac, but assuming good faith I shall pass this section, even though I was unable to find it on the magazine's website. I would still strongly recommend additional references to back the statement up. --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 17:14, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

   C. No original research:

   No original research appears to be in this article.
   *Done. I have had several articles pass FAC without having a citation at the end of every single sentence. I think it's ok to have all the citations at the end of a paragraph. Cla68 (talk) 06:53, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
   **There are some sentences which others may challenge in the future. It maybe helpful to cite certain sentences which may be challenged with a request for citation. --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 23:02, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
   I'm very reluctant to assist in contributing to the belief that articles should have citations at the end of every single sentence when, in my experience, putting them all at the end of the paragraph has worked fine. Cla68 (talk) 05:47, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
   *Although, not every sentence should be referenced, some people may ask for specific citations. Adding those citations now will stop those request in the future. For instance Where does it say that fortified wines with herbs and or roots were drunk in ancient Greece? What nation really did create wormood fortified wines first? Germany or Italy? How can one prove that? etc.
   Why is it that some sections have certain statements cited, and other sections have all the cites at the end of the paragraph?
   Why is it that the popularity of the beverage is so well cited when it comes to the royal court in Turin, but the popularity of the beverage in cocktails in the late 19th century only referenced until the end of the article? --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 17:14, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

3. Is it broad in its coverage?

   A. Major aspects:

   It appears to cover the subject of the article and its usages.

   B. Focused:

   It appears to not cover other subjects without indicating how it relates to the subject of the article.

4. Is it neutral?

   Fair representation without bias:

   The section Major brands may be taken to be written in a manor that may appear to be a review. Consider rewriting it to be more neutral in tone.
   Done. Cla68 (talk) 06:58, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
   *Issues appear to have been resolved. --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 23:02, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

5. Is it stable?

   No edit wars, etc:

   No edit wars appear to have occurred in the past year. However, the article appears to have been the target of past vandalism, and article should continued to be monitored,

6. Does it contain images to illustrate the topic?

   A. Images are copyright tagged, and non-free images have fair use rationales:

   The image Dry Martini-2.jpg is a derivative of a work which is trademark tagged, and therefore, itself may not be usable without permission of the trademark holders.

   B. Images are provided where possible and appropriate, with suitable captions:

   Each major section except for Production, ingredients, and flavors and Major brands have supporting images. Consider adding images into those sections to improve the article.
   *I changed the image. I don't think there is room to add more images in the article if viewing it in a widescreen monitor. Cla68 (talk) 07:06, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
   **Issue appears to have been resolved.--RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 23:02, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

7. Overall:

   Pass or Fail:

   Please attempt to correct the above, or explain why the above should be waived, and this article be listed as a GA.
   Comments are threaded above. Cla68 (talk) 07:08, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
   *Several issues still remain. Please attempt to rectify them before this article passes my review. --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 23:02, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
   Threaded results above. Cla68 (talk) 05:50, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
   *There are still a few short comings, IMHO. Please see above comments. --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 17:14, 15 June 2011 (UTC)
   With lack of improvement regarding criteria 2A, and a statement by the nominator, I am closing this review. This is unfortunate, as the improvement of this article is commendable. --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 21:06, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Subjective/dismissive statement

Cla68 and other recent writers have vastly improved the article since I last worked on it last six weeks ago, and I'm glad. There's still one remnant of the deprecatory attitude to vermouth that incited me to edit the article originally, however.

I find the following sourced statement subjective and debatable; I don't think it should lead the section on "Production, Ingredients and Flavors" and I've moved it to the bottom of the section, although I would prefer to delete it. It may be relevant to reference the attitude of English-language wine critics to vermouth, but it needs to be set in that context:

According to Stuart Walton and Brian Glover, vermouth "is as far removed from the natural produce of the vine as it is possible for a fortified wine to get." They add that there is no special connoisseurship of vermouth, as it is an "everyday product made to a consistent and unchanging recipe by each manufacturer."

Although vermouth does not fluctuate noticeably with vintage, neither does most sherry, marsala, porto, etc., and nobody would write in an article that there is "no special connoisseurship" of fortified or botanically flavored wines as a class, or even separately. Furthermore there are hundreds of variations of vermouth recipes and four major differences in style, so some level of connoisseurship seems possible (and desirable, since vermouth can be expensive). They're not all the same.

It is also extremely debatable whether vermouth is "as far removed from the natural produce of the vine as it is possible to get;" there are plenty of bottled wine products in which vintage, grape variety and terroir are undetectable. I really don't like anything about the quote. :) Nimmolo (talk) 19:35, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

I don't completely agree with the quote either. Walton and Glover's book is a useful and comprehensive guide to alcoholic beverages, but I think their opinions in the book are often a little snarky and snooty. I included the quote in the article because it counts as an expert opinion, which helps provide depth to the article. I've got a couple more books on order and hopefully will be able to add some more detail and opinion to the article. Cla68 (talk) 00:40, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps someone can find ANOTHER opinion that is based in a different vein? PERSONALLY, I disagree with the article, as it is relating things like the taste of beef that is plain and unseasoned vs beef with spices added to flavor it. Not that I especially love beef, indeed, to me, it's tasteless. But, spiced properly, it's quite nice. But, THAT is OR and a personal opinion. Like my preference to goat, lamb, sherry, vermouth, port, madeira, etc. All plain, spiced, mulled, whatever.Wzrd1 (talk) 04:35, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

New world vermouths

While it's reasonable that the article should document these, the vast majority of vermouth consumed in the world is Italian and French, even in the US. The present emphasis is wrong. --Ef80 (talk) 01:33, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

New world vermouth

imbue is a company that makes more than one product. I was initially excited to see the brand on Wikipedia but there are some mistakes. We currently make two products, imbue Bittersweet vermouth, and a second imbue Petal & Thorn, and aperitif wine. There is much more information on our website at imbuecellars.com. Also we are produced in the small town of Gaston, OR, not portland. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.39.134.106 (talk) 21:40, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Header

Changer "Turin, Italy" to "Torino, Italy" — Preceding unsigned comment added by Oskar0430 (talk • contribs) 17:05, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

I have edited the header in many ways. I removed the citation for Vermouth 101 altogether. It is lacking in verifiable sources. I replaced it with references already provided in the article that said that are verifiable and support the claim.

I changed the date in the second sentence from "1757" to "mid to late 18th Century" as there was no citation for the specific date. Many citations exist for either 1757 or 1786. This also fits better with the history section which focuses on the 1786 date and Carpano but doesn't mention Cinzano and 1757.

I updated the history given in this section. It was misrepresenting the commercial use of Vermouth. It skipped over its use as an aperitif and went from Medicinal straight to it's use as a Cocktail ingredient. I reworded and added citations to better reflect this part of it's history.

Corrected punctuation.

Removed the citation in the last paragraph. Boston Apothecary was cited twice in the same sentence. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Oskar0430 (talk • contribs) 16:52, 16 November 2013 (UTC)

I added citations where needed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Oskar0430 (talk • contribs) 16:25, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

Etymology and History

The first half of the last paragraph has been edited to better reflect the modern history of Vermouth (last 18th century on). Added citations as well. The last part of this paragraph was not accurate. Vermouth had experienced a slump after prohibition that continued after WWII, but has seen a resurgence recently with craft bartenders. I reworded the last 2 sentences to better reflect that and added citations. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Oskar0430 (talk • contribs) 16:48, 15 November 2013 (UTC)

I added to the last paragraph under Etymology and History to cover Vermouth's popularity in the Martini in 1950s, because the page's history seemed to end in 1800s. Ergalv92 (talk) 04:02, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Cooking

I added detail to further describe Vermouth's use in cooking. Ergalv92 (talk) 04:06, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Vermouth

Added bit about Vermouth's versatility in first paragraph. Ergalv92 (talk) 04:38, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Overall this page could do with some minor tweaking to add depth of knowledge to sections that may be lacking. Areas such as cooking could be rewritten in order to add information that may be useful to an individual who is seeking a recipe with Vermouth in it. ZacStewart00 (talk) 23:30, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

Vermouth Day section: remove?

There is no real information about Vermouth Day and no citations, it says it happens every year on March 21st but was invented in 2020, also the grammar is very bad. This section does not need to be here or needs radically re-writing. OvertonWindowEdit (talk) 19:51, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

XX's Century

The end of this sentence needs revision: "The drink is more popular in other parts of Europe (such as Italy, France and Spain, where it is often consumed by itself as an apéritif) and Argentina, influenced by a huge italian immigration on early XX's century." I might assume that "in the early 20th century" is intended, but since I can't be sure, I am reluctant to revise the sentence myself. 66.91.36.8 (talk) 06:30, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Why is quinine listed as a spice?

Even the link within the article leads to the malaria medication. It's not herbal, it's a manufactured drug. I'm pretty sure it's not common to put anti-malaria drugs in alcohol, especially considering said drug has some very unpleasant side effects such as migraine, vomiting, and other symptoms of GI distress. 2601:647:6400:F3E0:6DEB:7E50:8642:E5 (talk) 17:53, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

What is Vermouth

What is vermouth 2409:40F2:1028:6A69:8000:0:0:0 (talk) 20:57, 15 February 2024 (UTC)