Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Western Australia/Archive 11

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== for the adventurous and the timid ==

A great place to be on the day - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Meetup/Perth/49 - with 95 % rain chances - and the evening to drop to 4 degrees C - what better place than Fremantle Maritime Museum coffee shop?

Where else?

JarrahTree 13:17, 7 June 2018 (UTC)


Subcat issues (again, sigh)

We now have an edit war over whether articles that are in parent and child categories have the two sitting together in Perth suburb articles, it would be good if we could have a level headed discussion here to at least understand both sides of the argument, so I do hope that the two protagonists can come here and states their case (spoiler alert, I have previously had many discussions with Mitch about subcat/parent cat issues and recuse myself from making any further comment) - Mitch - Drover's - over to you folks. JarrahTree 00:54, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Relevant talk page discussions:
Categories:
Mitch Ames (talk) 07:31, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
As I said on JarrahTree's talk page: I don't know what should happen here: all suburbs are currently in the city suburbs cat (unless they have their own suburb-specific category), and the random category for the City of Swan is an outlier. It might be that you create another category structure for suburbs-by-LGA, which may or not diffuse the main city suburbs category. It might be that you delete the City of Swan category. It might be that some other option is better. I don't particularly have a preference there. But randomly burying all the suburbs of the City of Swan (I had trouble even finding the category amidst the long lists of suburb-specific categories - and I knew what I was looking for!) because Mitch's instant response is to delete the parent is the worst of these potential outcomes. The Drover's Wife (talk) 01:10, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
It's not an edit war, it's WP:bold, revert, discuss. There are multiple articles, but each article has one edit and one reversion. Mitch Ames (talk) 13:49, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
...Mitch's instant response is to delete the parent is the worst of these potential outcomes — My response is to follow the well-established WP:SUBCAT guidelines - the one that says

... an article should be categorised ... without duplication in parent categories above it. In other words, a page or category should rarely be placed in both a category and a subcategory or parent category (supercategory) of that category

Of course I am well aware of the non-diffusing subcat exception - that's the bit that says "Non-diffusing subcategories should be identified with a template on the category page" - which non of the relevent categories are, nor is the parent marked as {{All included}}. As I have mentioned in previous discussions:
  • If you disagree with WP:SUBCAT, propose a change to it on the talk page.
  • If you want a category to be all-inclusive and/or a subcategory to be non-diffusing, then add the {{All included}} and/or {{Non-diffusing subcategory}} templates – that's what they are for.
Mitch Ames (talk) 13:49, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
Please point to me where in that quoted statement it tells you to automatically and without thinking remove the parent category in all circumstances. You often correctly flag an issue with WP:SUBCAT - the problem is in your behaviour when you find one - behaviour which has no justification in policy, guideline or common sense. As I said on your talk page: it may be that removing the parent is appropriate - or it may be that removing the child is appropriate, it may be that it is fairly obviously a non-diffusing category but not tagged as such, it may be that the category structure needs discussion and a rework, or it may be another issue entirely. Please think about these kind of restructures: unless you've thought it through and decided that it specifically, in that instance, makes sense and that people are unlikely to object, please raise it for discussion so we can focus on hashing out the issues you flag instead of having to continually discuss your behaviour instead. The Drover's Wife (talk) 14:19, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
"... no justification in policy, guideline ..." — I refer you again to the guideline WP:SUBCAT's "without duplication... rarely be placed in both a category and a subcategory or parent category ..."
"... it may be that it is fairly obviously a non-diffusing category but not tagged as such ..." — What is "obvious" is a matter of opinion, in which you and I differ. SUBCAT, however, is a fairly clear guideline. Can I suggest that next time you add articles to both parent and child categories, that you also add the appropriate previously-mentioned template(s) to the categories first, as WP:DUPCAT recommends. Had you simply added {{all included}} to the parent and then a polite edit summary in each case mentioning that the parent was now tagged as all-inclusive, there would have been no need for this discussion. Of course if you weren't sure that the parent should be all-inclusive, you could have discussed the matter first, rather than making dozens of edits that were contrary to a well-established MOS guideline. Mitch Ames (talk) 07:08, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
Let me be clearer: nowhere in that sentence does it tell you to always remove the parent as a solution. I hadn't touched the category: like many, many categories on Wikipedia, it had grown organically, which means that problems, such as that you found, arise. Categories won't be tagged that need it because nobody has ever given the category serious attention. The solution to these situations is discussion, not reflexively making edits that don't make sense because you've never actually read the policy you're so fond of quoting. And I didn't tag the category because I'm not sure that's the best outcome - what it needed was a discussion about what to do with it, possibly leading to something along the lines of what Evad37 suggested below. The Drover's Wife (talk) 08:24, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
"nowhere in that sentence does it tell you to always remove the parent" — Of course is doesn't; it's a style guideline, describing several possible outcomes - one of which has the article not in the parent category - not a set of instructions tell you exactly what to do. I can't find a sentence that says "do not remove the parent" either. Mitch Ames (talk) 10:49, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
Of course it doesn't - because that, too, would lead to stupid outcomes. There are, obviously, times when it is valid to remove the parent category. I'm baffled why, if you admit that the guideline describes several possible outcomes, you again and again and again insist on only removing the parent categories in every situation even when this leads to outcomes that are obviously absurd. Each time these sillier cases are actually discussed - as seems to be happening here - it winds up in an agreement not to delete the parent category. So why do you keep doing it without thinking? The Drover's Wife (talk) 11:28, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
"So why do you keep doing it without thinking?" — Please don't make unverifiable presumptions about my mental processes. It's not appropriate here. Mitch Ames (talk) 03:00, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
Well, why do you do it in every single case, even when that results in outcomes which are obviously absurd? It's a straightforward question. The Drover's Wife (talk) 04:35, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
  • This problem appears to stem from the fact that the article List of Perth suburbs itself is very poor, lacks clear definitions and even proper sourcing. As the article stands LGA are an unimportant secondary aspect to the suburbs that makes sub categorising by LGA imcompatible with the article. The list gives priority to the suburb over the LGA and the category is giving priority to the :GA over the suburb while neither helps navigate those suburbs that cross lga boundaries, those that have moved between lga's nor lga's that are separated from old Lga. The statement in the article refers to pdf but the pdf doesnt directly support the statement being made in the article. I think that once the list issues are resolved then the category issues will be resolvable and both will be able to consistently provide the same information. Gnangarra 16:28, 8 June 2018 (UTC)
"This problem appears to stem from the fact that the article List of Perth suburbs itself is very poor,..." — I disagree. The article could be good, bad or non-existent, but that would not affect whether WP:SUBCAT and/or WP:DUPCAT applied, or whether non-diffusing or all-inclusive categories should be marked with the appropriate template. WP:CLNT explicitly allows overlapping list articles and categories. It's possible that a simple and complete list article might add weight to the case for not having an all-inclusive Category:Suburbs of Perth, Western Australia, but the fundamental disagreement between myself and The Drover's Wife (as I understand it) is not whether that category should be all-inclusive, but rather whether it should be treated as all-inclusive when not tagged as such. Mitch Ames (talk) 07:22, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
so your making all this fuss about a category not being tagged with a tag that was created years after the category was created, surely you could have just tagged the category and moved on. Gnangarra 01:43, 10 June 2018 (UTC)
  • How about making Category:Suburbs of Perth, Western Australia an {{all included}} category, for a simple alphabetical listing without all the extra information the list article provides (or should provide); and also create all the by LGA categories, since that does seems like a useful way to navigate the articles. Suburbs across multiple LGAs can have a sort key starting with * for the LGA categories, which can be explained in the category descriptions. - Evad37 [talk] 03:41, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
How about making Category:Suburbs of Perth, Western Australia an {{all included}} category — I'd support that. Mitch Ames (talk) 07:43, 9 June 2018 (UTC)
 Done - Evad37 [talk] 08:54, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

List sorting

For the more functionally mind than myself is it possible to sort a table like List of heritage places in York, Western Australia by street then number without relying on the manual addition of sort keys. I have created a smaller table at User:Gnangarra/sandbox/york to test theories on note that Avon Terrace has numbers 153, 147, 18 as street numbers Gnangarra 10:27, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

done some more digging and found you can do by holding the shift key and then click on each column in the order you want it sort ie street name then street number... but it'd be better if it could done by anyone even without knowing that. Gnangarra 10:35, 19 June 2018 (UTC)

The name of an inHerit reference for Eliza's Cottage

Western Australian editors are requested to comment at Talk:Eliza's Cottage#inHerit name, on the "name" parameter for {{Heritage Council of Western Australia}}. Mitch Ames (talk) 12:16, 28 June 2018 (UTC)

Melbourne Street

According to a recent comment by Shinjiman on Talk:Melbourne_Street,_Perth#does_non-existent_street_belong_in_Streets_category:

Now there's a street sign set up by the council, says "Melbourne Steeet, formerly Milligan Street" there

Does anyone know of any published statement / news article / gazette explicitly stating that the name has changed, and when/why, that we could use as a reference? Mitch Ames (talk) 11:49, 29 June 2018 (UTC)

Rather short notice

Please note that the July meetup of the WA Wiki Club West is at State Library 10 am to 3 pm - Sunday 15th 2018

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Meetup/Perth/50

Apologies for any inconvenience about the lack of notice - hope to see you there anyways!!!

JarrahTree 12:29, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

WNWBL finals

From WP:AWNB#Paging Perth People:

Anyone here in Perth? Every year since 2013 I've have attended the Women's National Wheelchair Basketball League finals and taken a group photo of the winning team. This year it's in Perth, at the Bendat Basketball Centre at 201 Underwood Ave, Floreat WA, between 12:00 and 14:00 on Sunday 29 July. If someone could drop in and take a pic for the article, that would be most appreciated. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:45, 22 July 2018 (UTC)

- Evad37 [talk] 06:51, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

When was the north section of Milligan St renamed to Melbourne St?

I've just updated Milligan Street, Perth and Melbourne Street, Perth to reflect the recent renaming of the northern section of the former to the latter. Can anyone provide a reference stating when that rename officially happened? I've searched the Government Gazettes but can't find it. Both articles have this awkwardly worded sentence:

In December 2017 the City of Perth Council agreed to a request from Landgate[1][2] and the portion of Milligan Street between Roe and James Streets was renamed back to Melbourne Street.

References

  1. ^ "Council Minutes" (PDF). Perth City Council. 2017-12-19. p. 6. Retrieved 2018-04-06.
  2. ^ Report to the Planning Committee – Change of Name for Northern Portion of Milligan Street, Between Roe Street and James Street, Northbridge to Melbourne Street (PDF), City of Perth, 2017-12-14, retrieved 2018-09-02

The reason for that wording is that the references say that the Council "seeks the Geographic Names Committee’s approval for the change of street name", but I can't find anything that says when, or even if, the Geographic Names Committee gave that approval, or when the name change officially took place.

Presumably it must have happened because both Landgate's Map Viewer Plus and Main Roads' Road Information Mapping System show the new name, and according to Shinjiman in June 2018 there was a "Melbourne Street" sign.

I'd like to simplify the articles to say

In [2017 or 2018] the portion of Milligan Street between Roe and James Streets was renamed back to Melbourne Street.[1]

References

  1. ^ Some reference that actually says the road was renamed, and when

but I don't know when the rename occurred.
Mitch Ames (talk) 11:40, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

WA don't seem to publish either GNC proposals or decisions as far as I can find, which makes this kind of thing quite difficult. The Drover's Wife (talk) 20:57, 2 September 2018 (UTC)

native pests and vermin

I'm trying to determine some history of legislation and enforcement of animal control (shooting mostly) in WA. There was a parrot species, Purpureicephalus spurius (syn. Platycercus spurius), the King or Red-cap Parrot, that was 'declared' as a pest or vermin until at least 1997. Some black cockatoos were removed around that time, declared endangered instead, but my searches of government websites is not showing me the current or changed status. They were very limited in the damage they actually did to orchards and crops, I am told, though seeing them popped off is like watching fireworks during the day (it breaks the monotony). Any help or sources on this is greatly appreciated. — cygnis insignis 17:01, 4 September 2018 (UTC)

I have a lot of possible leads - if you are in Perth soon for any reason - give a call - the appropriate part of the government systems was the Long, John L; Western Australia. Agriculture Protection Board (1988), An indexed list of vertebrate pest (mammals and birds) publications by Agriculture Protection Board officers, 1900-1987, The Board, retrieved 5 September 2018 - less than 40 pages - JarrahTree 13:54, 5 September 2018 (UTC)

articles like this one

I am traumatised by articles like this at the best of time - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_bus_routes_in_Perth,_Western_Australia - the most recent edit accentuates such trauma... not sure whether there any watchers of this ever quieter page as to whether an admin or other might consider such a format is really in the WP:NOT territory of similar principles... The utilisation of such information in that manner seems to echo soccer pages for some south east asian countries - every basic principle of wikipedia seems to be inverted. JarrahTree 14:30, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

ah somnolent and slumbering masses of diligent editors ever hard working and incapable of being distracted, perhaps large WP:NOTGUIDE is so passe on this godforsaken fishbowl...that no one cares any more JarrahTree 23:37, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
ah somnolent and slumbering masses — after 10:30pm, yes, because some us ever hard working people have to get up early to go to our day jobs. Mitch Ames (talk) 09:54, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
and have real life, and requirements in the real world, that require inordinate amount of time doing things other than wikipedia editing, sad JarrahTree 10:00, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
Do bus routes go in Wikidata? Sam Wilson 23:53, 10 September 2018 (UTC)
yes [1] - maybe I should duck down and go quietly, it is just seeing a very large addition of that material to the articles as was done last night seemed undue... JarrahTree 00:02, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
resolved in WP:MOS terms - thanks Evad !! JarrahTree 05:06, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
Yes, we have a style guide, and should follow it rather than Transperth's (remember what this stuff looked like prior to a couple of years ago? [2], [3]). - Evad37 [talk] 06:14, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
I'm inclined to agree with JarrahTree that the actual list of bus routes is contrary to WP:NOTDIRECTORY. I suggest that the article should be renamed to Bus routes in Perth, Western Australia, and the sections Bus routes by route number and Renumbered and withdrawn bus routes be deleted. The text of Special services could probably be kept, but the table should be deleted. Mitch Ames (talk) 11:15, 11 September 2018 (UTC)
I don't think it's entriely clear that it's a wikt:directory, except in the vague sense that its a listing of a certain type of thing, like every other list article on Wikipedia. And WP:CSC specifically allows lists where the items are individually non-notable. It's shouldn't be listing the time schedules, or turn-by-turn directions, or other minutia, just the significant details for each item.
It is common enough to have lists of bus routes (see Category:Lists of bus routes and subcats), and is often a result of or suggestion at AfDs per WP:BUSOUTCOMES. So perhaps a discussion at a wider venue would be appropriate if you think such pages aren't appropriate as lists.
Though the section 'Renumbered and withdrawn bus routes' probably isn't needed. There doesn't seem any logical basis for the "since 2014" restriction, nor any practical way to have a complete list in this section. And it is a bit on the trivial side of things. - Evad37 [talk] 14:06, 11 September 2018 (UTC)

Next Perth Meetup

For those page lurkers, or interested persons -

The Next Perht meetup is this Sunday in the State Library in Perth - Wikipedia:Meetup/Perth/52

anyone most welcome - a range of activities - including the opportunity to speak with visiting WikiData expert Andy Mabbett and a marvelous opportunity to meet fellow wikipedians

See you there!! JarrahTree 23:01, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

pawn in a much wider game

Local editors should be aware that the 1944 scare during second world war is being worked upon the GA process for the article Western_Australian_emergency_of_March_1944 by the Australian cohort of milhist editors. In a lot of cases the details might have 'tothersiders making claims about things west australian that might need local tweaks.

Please help the process - and clarify or help editors who are not local. It is a marvelous opportunity for editors who do not venture into other states histories, to see how WA was a focus of attention in the latter parts of the 2ww.

For the newer and more adventurous editors, the more serious issue was the Western_Australian_emergency_of_March_1942 as a lot more was enacted and done on the ground, however the article in appearance is the opposite end of the Feature 1944 article, it is a mere stub in comparison. The fact that there is now more material in easily available sources about the actions of 1942 here in Western Australia.

As the project is concerned there is thanks to the Oz milhist cohort for improving WA history content - specially Nick-D who started the 1944 article. JarrahTree 23:20, 1 October 2018 (UTC)

RAC --> Perth Arena

Local editors are invited to comment at Talk:RAC_Arena_(Perth)#Requested_move_13_October_2018. Mitch Ames (talk) 06:19, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

Heritage lists

There's an ongoing discussion about rolling out lists of heritage sites at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Australian historic places, following on from the earlier discussion at WP:AWNB. Having been through these sorts of discussions with WA people before, it'd be useful to establish if we can find a nationally consistent way of doing this now, rather than ploughing through and having a bunch of arguments down the line - feedback there would be appreciated. The Drover's Wife (talk) 20:55, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

Hi, I just posted at the Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Australian historic places discussion that I think it would not be a good idea to try to discuss, right now, all the issues that would be involved in setting up list-articles to cover all of Western Australia. These issues would include scope (whether to cover state-level sites only or not), regions (how to partition list-articles by geographical areas of WA), formatting of tables (which could depend on WA data fields available) and more. It's a pretty long post, sorry, at the bottom of this permalink version of that Talk page. I want to do Queensland first, and I think that only sometime later might it be productive to talk about list-articles for WA. Not to hide anything, I don't mean to complain about past stuff, but I did mention some recent/past disagreement about the Fremantle historic sites list-article, and I do think the fact of disagreement and/or incomplete discussion there is valid reason not to want to impose new stuff on WA editors right now. WA editors, like any editors, are welcome to watch and participate in the discussion now, and/or in a narrower discussion about Queensland. --Doncram (talk) 06:28, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

Kimberley

A new article on the heritage listing of the West Kimberley some years ago has appeared (with thanks to Kerry Raymond for her considerable effort to make sure that such an amazing listing has an article).

It would be appreciated if others can have a look, as there might be some inter-relationship with already existing article on the kimberley - so any extra eyes would be appreciated - thank you. JarrahTree 15:53, 13 October 2018 (UTC)


If this how we are going to approach Indigenous culture then we are doing harm, that whole article is as politely offensive as possible while being the perfect example of how not to dump Australian Government databases licensed under cc-by into Wikipedia it make a mockery of the efforts of every contributor to neutral, factual. It should be deleted. Gnangarra 16:48, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

Glad I didn't notice the offensive parts, well nothing more than the usual air of apologetics from a source like that. I agree that content should not be used as a text dump, although there are good leads for article expansion it at the very least forks from existing articles, is in an inappropriate tone, and swamps the legitimate content. cygnis insignis 17:18, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
I'm trying to clean it up but its not anywhere an encyclopaedic article. the whole basis is just the reason for heritage listing. It does nothing well but yeah it offers a myriad of starting points yet they are so obtuse and out of sinc that given credit as being based on a cc-by page dump is outrageous. As said the perfect example of what not to do with cc-by text from government departments Gnangarra 17:41, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
I've raised this issue at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Australian historic places, which is where this stuff is being coordinated. As some of you have a lot of opinions about heritage stuff, it might be a useful place to follow. The Drover's Wife (talk) 20:55, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
Therein lies the rub, it is not a heritage article in reality, it is a grab all over a range of disciplines and in reality is not relevant in a historic place project - it is more a parallel reality show to existing articles. Heritage landscapes of that size (as the deleted lead sentence had: It is a huge area. It is a vast area ) really should not have single articles on wikipedia like that.
It simply swamps an already wikipedia covered area - the bibliography does disservice to the rest of the material of the category https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Kimberley_(Western_Australia).
So although it might seem to belong to the historic place project - it is not. JarrahTree 23:57, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
I'm in complete agreement with you. I'm just pointing you to the best place to discuss it (since it's the project that made the article), and suggest that it's a page you might be interested to keep an eye on to participate in in future considering your areas of interest. The Drover's Wife (talk) 00:33, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
  • The best place to talk about Western Australian topics is at Wikiproject:Western Australia its where you'll find the known to put the whole picture together, Gnangarra 04:05, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
    • Look, if you really want to focus on trying to have a turf war, do it, but it'll probably mean the issue stagnating without getting the outcome you could've obtained if you'd engaged. The Drover's Wife (talk) 05:19, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
its a case of suggesting where you'll find the level of participation by knowledgable people needed to be informed about the topic and its relationships with the myriad of other topics related to the region and the state as a whole. Gnangarra 09:46, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
I suggest that the whole article be moved out of article namespace and into draft-space until it can be cleaned up. While I understand the sentiment, section headings of "below to be removed after selective pieces are retained" are simply not appropriate in article space. (Related diffs: [4][5]) Likewise "under review". If the article is in such a state that it needs section headings like those, it's not ready for publishing. Mitch Ames (talk) 05:42, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
Further issues, which suggest it's really not ready for main-space:
  • The scope of the area is ill-defined. The first reference [6] says "The West Kimberley spans 159,609 square kilometres", but the West Kimberley's lead section says "the 420,000 square kilometre region", citing a reference [7] that says "The [unqualified] Kimberley occupies more than 420,000 square kilometres". That same reference also uses "north Kimberley", "west Kimberley" etc, suggesting that the "west Kimberley" is only part of the 420,000. The rest of West Kimberley refers variously to or describes "Kimberley", "west Kimberley", "north-west Kimberley", "central Kimberley", as if the article can't decide what its scope is.
  • It really needs clearer separation between description of the land itself, and the people. For example:

... obligations to relocate to particular areas for ritual business.
...
Knowledge was the primary tool used by Aboriginal people to occupy and manage the Australian continent. Aboriginal knowledge systems, which support sustainable relationships with the land, have developed through many millennia of observation, experimentation and teaching

In the Kimberley, the diversity of the biological environment is paralleled by the diversity of the cultural and linguistic environment. Linguists have shown that languages spoken north of the Fitzroy River are different from those classified as the "Pama-Nyungen" languages, spoken everywhere else on the Australian continent

Mitch Ames (talk) 06:25, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
Further to my above comment regarding the area that the "West Kimberley" nominally covers (420,000 km2 or 159,609 km2), I just added a {{convert}} (without changing the input value) to West Kimberley#Places of Interest; now it says:

West Kimberley is at about 19,200,000 hectares (192,000 km2) ...

So now we have 420,000 km2, 160,000 km2, 192,000 km2 to choose from. Mitch Ames (talk) 06:47, 14 October 2018 (UTC)
yeah its a problem because the base cc text is 10 years old, date would be older and more adhoc. Region shift according to the whim of which department wants what for what connection, whether its tourism, cultural, mining, political funding. Basically its what we encounter with every region in WA there is no absolute. As for some of the other issues yes there still is a lot of sorting to do and aweful lot of governmental report writing garbage, guff and fluff that needs to be removed. Gnangarra 09:46, 14 October 2018 (UTC)

November DYK

Did you know that the first publication in WA was Report of the Late Trial for Libel!!! Clarke versus MacFaul (Fremantle, 1835). Neither did I! There is so much good work in our projects, I'm amazed to find anything overlooked. My own print resources are available if anyone wants access, perhaps another fact via an index, and hope to attend another WA meetup in the future. Happy editing! — cygnis insignis 04:51, 2 November 2018 (UTC)

Meetup 54

Hi folks, Wikipedia:Meetup/Perth/54 will take place at the SLWA in the regular room on Wednesday evening from 17:00 I know that may be a bit early for some to get there but we'll be there for a while and like always this is a casual meeting. The reason that the meeting is on Wednesday is that Asaf Bartov is in town. Hope you all can make it Gnangarra 05:11, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

West Kimberley

The embarrassment of West Kimberley has been replaced with a stud, but fear not for those who see some value in the original text the whole article and its history have been move to Draft:West_Kimberley along with the original talk page . Gnangarra 08:24, 2 December 2018 (UTC)

Defunct government departments of Western Australia

the Category:Defunct government departments of Western Australia besides the public works department, are they truly defunct most have just had names changed, or been merged in to larger departments so its not like their tasks have ceased to be done. For some they are again created with the changes of governments or need to be seen to be doing something different. Some states use former, the national level uses defunct but it also contain may state level departments. CALM became conservation and environment same people, same role just few million bucks for signage, really just smoke and mirrors exercise. These arent defunct they are just former iterations of the current department, many dont even change the under lying legislation that creates them. Gnangarra 12:56, 9 December 2018 (UTC)


Article names

Interesting - for anyone interested in the current title name issues -

at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Australian_Wikipedians%27_notice_board place names,

see also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:New_Norfolk#Requested_move_20_November_2018
see also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Ulverstone,_Tasmania
there are others, but this is a sense of what is currently in action


the West Australian project has recently had some hundreds of place names for articles changed by a range of IPs and today an interesting character who is basically re-naming the whole of the perth and fremantle range of articles. Usually with the same edit summary: 'dab not needed' or something similar

examples:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/118.209.190.55
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/Pierspaterson
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/118.209.175.216

Interesting in that there had been generally accepted forms of naming of items and no interference or discussion to date, yet the changing has been quite extensive. Most advice from others suggest there is nothing controversial about the changing, but considering how much of the project article names have been changed, I am curious.

Most names were originally put in good faith, and yet the ip/editor(s) has been changing the whole range of specifically perth/western australian edits.

The residual parts of the discussion at the national level do not address massive undiscussed changing. Perhaps the project page will come up with no responses, in which case this is simply a FYI for this project that the landscape of naming places has been changed, under your nose, so to speak. JarrahTree 00:00, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

Today's moves seem unhelpful and to make the titles less informative, but not my area, not my argument. The Drover's Wife (talk) 01:57, 14 December 2018 (UTC)
Maybe not your area or argument, but the Ip/editor(s) have been systematically misusing the 'disambig' issue to make a mess of the project. JarrahTree 02:17, 14 December 2018 (UTC)

short notice /last minute - casual meetup in Perth CBD on January 28th 2019

In case you are available - meetup people - there is a 12.30 meetup of any interested wikipedians.

Apologies about the last minute nature - so it is not a formal meetup - to meet with a visiting wikipedian.

Please message here on wiki, email or phone User:JarrahTree before 10 am on the day to confirm or with any queries.. Otherwise - the initial meeting will be at the Tourist information booth at the Forrest Chase/Murray Street mall intersection.

12.30 pm Tourist Information booth Murray Street/Forrest Chase.

Thanks. JarrahTree 12:07, 27 January 2019 (UTC)

I'll be there. Are we going somewhere to eat? Mitch Ames (talk) 23:55, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
+1 See you there - Evad37 [talk] 23:58, 27 January 2019 (UTC)
Thank you people - yes there will be a search for an open place to eat/drink! mencari makan atau minum JarrahTree 00:06, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
Have we learnt nothing this weekend, or indeed in the last few years? Surely waadiny mereny kidji kep would be more appropriate? Mitch Ames (talk) 00:55, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
there is an indonesian/malay aspect to this meeting that suggests nys terminology is out of place JarrahTree 01:01, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

Looking forward to meetup with people there today - thanks for the responses (on and offline) - more news about it later!! JarrahTree 02:44, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

WP 1.0 Bot Beta

Hello! Your WikiProject has been selected to participate in the WP 1.0 Bot rewrite beta. This means that, starting in the next few days or weeks, your assessment tables will be updated using code in the new bot, codenamed Lucky. You can read more about this change on the Wikipedia 1.0 Editorial team page. Thanks! audiodude (talk) 06:49, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Meetup/Perth/56

The next meetup will be at the Riverton Library Wikipedia:Meetup/Perth/56, sorry for not confirming the details sooner but we were waiting on confirmation that our Special Guest would be available Gnangarra 04:48, 12 March 2019 (UTC)

Feel free to add, adjust, and all the other wikistuff to the report on Wikipedia:Meetup/Perth/56 Gnangarra 06:44, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

Bibbulmun - Noongar

Della Rae Morrison (recently created by Big iron) says that Morrison is of the Bibbulmun people, with a link to Noongar. The Bibbulmun disambiguation page also says that "Noongar ... are also known as Bibbulmun". However the Noongar article itself has no mention of Bibbulmun at all. Could someone more knowledgable on the subject please add to Noongar the appropriate words and references so that it mentions the Bibbulman. (I suspect also that the entry in the Bibbulmun page needs updating, if Bibbulman are a subset of Noongar. Mitch Ames (talk) 11:30, 18 February 2019 (UTC)

  • Bibulman also spelt Piblemen -- manjimup, bridgetown, Denmark, Walpole area Warren District it in already in the Noongar article. Gnangarra 06:50, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
  • There should be some caution in conceptualising these names as labelling 'sets and subsets', as an overview that has limited usefulness and may be overly reductive. cygnis insignis 10:04, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
I suspect that I didn't find it in Noongar because I did a simple text search for "Bibbulmun" - which did not find the the single-"b" spelling. So I've added "Bibbulmun" as well. Mitch Ames (talk) 11:42, 26 March 2019 (UTC)
There is a couple of good papers that seek to regularise some commonly used Nyungar/Noongar terms, and close matches don't provide a hit, making a redirect was a good idea. I could spend a week sorting the use of 'kwongan', backed by the exhaustive research of Hopper. cygnis insignis 11:51, 26 March 2019 (UTC)

A new newsletter directory is out!

A new Newsletter directory has been created to replace the old, out-of-date one. If your WikiProject and its taskforces have newsletters (even inactive ones), or if you know of a missing newsletter (including from sister projects like WikiSpecies), please include it in the directory! The template can be a bit tricky, so if you need help, just post the newsletter on the template's talk page and someone will add it for you.

– Sent on behalf of Headbomb. 03:11, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

Cold fire - "Fire management" or "bush management"?

See Talk:Cold fire (fire management)#"Fire management" or "bush management"?. Mitch Ames (talk) 12:38, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

a challenge for...

philanthropy sleuths - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Andrew_Forrest#Philanthropy vs https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Andrew_Forrest&oldid=892103590

what might be happening... would be of interest to see how the issue is resolved... JarrahTree 07:55, 12 April 2019 (UTC)

Primarily known as a philanthropist, the interests in mining and pastoralism seem incidental; I could make it more compliant if he sends a donation. /s cygnis insignis 08:45, 12 April 2019 (UTC)


Duncan Merrilees

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Other editors are invited to comment at Talk:Duncan Merrilees#The referendum that allowed many people to vote in elections for the first time. Mitch Ames (talk) 08:51, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

1. responding to drama mongering rabble rousing, some interminable quibbling and willfully obtuse and pompous responses. 2. Creating content in a harmonious and collaborative environment without painting targets on fellow editors for a no-win culture war. Pick one, but 2 is harder. cygnis insignis 10:57, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

significant tagging issue

Oh wise and circumspect watchers, lurkers and others - it has come to notice that a past practice of tagging a range of articles:

has WA tagged - where things actually have existed within the bounds of Perth. such as

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:1956_WANFL_season many of the football articles have WA and not Perth.

There a range of sports and other articles that ideally need to have the tag of Perth - that do not really need a WA part at all

I am not wondering whether those participants in this ---- who do not tag at all - it is more for those who have had the courage to go to talk pages, and have looked at talk pages, and wondered what the precedents and generally accepted norms of tagging, might be.

There are a significant number of Perth tags that sit with WA tags and assessment - this query is in made in the possibility that the Perth task force may in the near future be returned to its own specific project and also subsequent assessment - requiring quite a massive change, if there is no objection.

Thanks. JarrahTree 07:31, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

"https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:1956_WANFL_season many of the football articles have WA and not Perth." — Well to be fair, it is the WANFL, not the PNFL. Perhaps it didn't matter in 1956, but the WAFL now includes Peel Thunder Football Club, from Mandurah, "72 kilometres (45 mi) south of the state capital, Perth". Mitch Ames (talk) 07:58, 19 April 2019 (UTC)
It's also so lot deeper the former 8 perth competition sat at the top level, that are many other levels of competitions and bodies that are sanctioned within that umbrella. It's been this way for a long time as sanctions(suspensions) affect all level in which the player could play, and that each player must be cleared to play from one level to another. Yes WAFL, WANFL, WAFC are actually WA not Perth. Gnangarra 11:16, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

Thanks both mitch and gnang - the issue is that there are sports that were more 'perth' than wa - and from what has been said so far - the way to make the distinction then is the actual naming of the competitions as much as the actual geographic context. JarrahTree 11:43, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

Only the 8 teams(pre peel) playing in the league competition were considered the pinnacle of the sport in WA, the reserves & colts were lower feeder grades of that but not exclusively so. These teams were Perth based but interconnected to teams across the state sometimes a specific defined zones, other times by various connections. Historically I think the whole competition sits better under the WA project than being solely Perth. Gnangarra 12:10, 19 April 2019 (UTC)

City of Canning

The digitization equipment has its first set of dates Wikipedia:WikiClubWest/City of Canning, there will initially be information sessions covering, Canning Heritage Collection, Wikimedia projects, and Digitization through May & June. This will be followed with an all day event in the school holidays on the 10th July at the Studio in Riverton which will be open to public to bring down items for digitization. I have also requested the room for our meetup on the 21st July, though this is yet to be confirmed. You are welcome to any or all sessions additional help and knowledge would be appreciated sign up on the page. If you'd like to actively participate in the presentations let me know on the weekend, this would be a good opportunity to experience presenting on our favorite addiction. Gnangarra 10:33, 24 April 2019 (UTC)

Woodloes Homestead

I created Woodloes Homestead specifically to use for demonstration of editing during the Information sessions with the City of Canning. As such I ask that despite the wealth of information out there it get sleft as is at the moment. I went there on sunday to grab a couple of current photos which will be uploaded and added during the events. Gnangarra 07:40, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

Meetup, workshops, and digitizing events

Kaya, its all happening add Wikipedia:WikiProject Perth/2019 plan to your watchlist to see what is being planned & scheduled for the events in May, June & July as they are filling fast, not in the WikiClubWest schedule is a Conference in Sydney for WMAU on the 15/16 June.

You're welcome to attend any or all of these events, for Toodyay there is space in my car as soon as I have all the details I'll let you know. Gnangarra 03:06, 3 May 2019 (UTC)

quick answer Toodyay doors open 10 for 10:30 start Gnangarra 03:09, 3 May 2019 (UTC)
Could you clarify "note that in the June, the WikiClubWest schedule is a Conference in Sydney for WMAU on the 15/16 June" (quoted from this version) please. A specific link might help. Mitch Ames (talk) 06:09, 4 May 2019 (UTC)
I did original say not in the WCW schedule/plan is a conference for WMAU in Sydney, there is a link for an event at University of Sydney 12-14 at https://www.wow2019.net/ the WMAU event which takes place 15 & 16th will be posted soon. Both events included content from WA, are free, and open to the public. Gnangarra 12:27, 4 May 2019 (UTC)

Category for people with plaques on St Georges Terrace?

Is it worth creating a category for people with WAY 79 § St Georges Terrace plaques? (Possibly including people who used to have one.) Mitch Ames (talk) 09:34, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

Please be bold, yes there are at least another 100 to add if not more - no need to ask JarrahTree 09:40, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

Upcoming conference - Wikimedia Australia Community Conference, Sydney, 15 June 2019

For more information, please see Wikimedia Australia Community Conference, Sydney, 15 June 2019 JarrahTree 10:22, 15 May 2019 (UTC)

University Notre Dame Australia

An editor has requested assistance with updating this article - please see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:University_of_Notre_Dame_Australia

It would be much appreciated if help can be given (as requested), thanks. JarrahTree 09:14, 28 May 2019 (UTC)

Forthcoming loss of portal

Project members or watchers might need to heed the critique of the soon to go portal:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Miscellany_for_deletion/Abandoned_micro-portals_for_Australian_state_capitals

JarrahTree 13:29, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

Schools and Sea of Blue

WA editors are invited to comment at User talk:Mitch Ames § Schools and Sea of Blue.
(Courtesy ping: Rangasyd)
Mitch Ames (talk) 08:32, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

It would be far more appropriate to have the discussion here at the project page. JarrahTree 09:08, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
Perhaps, but there's already a discussion happening there, and I don't want to fragment it. Rangasyd, as the originator of the discussion, may chose to move it here. Mitch Ames (talk) 01:46, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

Conversation moved from User talk:Mitch Ames

Hi there. Obviously you think that what I'm doing doesn't comply with MOS:SEAOFBLUE. Instead of reverting, perhaps we have a civil discussion here. Cheers. Rangasyd (talk) 05:51, 8 June 2019 (UTC)

OK. Using John Curtin College of the Arts as example:
This version includes "Perth, Western Australia" in both the infobox and the first paragraph. "Perth" and Western Australia" are separate links. Strictly speaking they aren't adjacent, because the comma is not linked, but I suggest that reader won't notice that - to the casual eye, the links are "next to each other so that they look like a single link", so MOS:SEAOFBLUE suggests "using a single, more specific link instead", which I've done. Is there any specific reason why you think we should link "Perth" and "Western Australia" separately? Given the context ("a suburb of Perth") is the reader likely to want to go straight to the WA article?
I could just unlink "Western Australia" instead, because Perth, Western Australia is a redirect.
A possible alternative is "... a suburb of Perth, the capital city of Western Australia" but that seems unnecessarily verbose.
Mitch Ames (talk) 06:53, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
Thanks. Sorry for the delay; I wasn't watching your talk page. I am now.
  1. Perth, Western Australia is a redirect to Perth; and there are several Perths in the world.
  2. Where a school (or anything else) is located in a suburb of Perth, that should be listed as being located in [suburb name], a suburb of Perth, Western Australia (to distinguish it from a suburb of (other) Perths. The casual reader may not understand that Claremont (for example) is a suburb of Perth, Western Australia as opposed to being based in the Pilbara.
  3. I'm not a fan of 'the capital city of....' It's verbose.
  4. As to unlinking Western Australia, there is no linking of Australia in the infobox or in the lede, as it is considered verbose. For this reason, the linking to Western Australia is considered relevant. This probably only relevant in SA and WA.
Over to you. Rangasyd (talk) 07:26, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
Generally I agree with your points 1, 2, 3.
I still disagree that it is necessary to link WA separately to Perth, and contrary to SEAOFBLUE - the link to either Perth (primary topic) or Perth, Western Australia is clearly the one in WA, whether you're looking at the school article or the Perth article. This is true independently of whether "Australia" is linked anywhere.
Perhaps other editors will comment on this.
Mitch Ames (talk) 08:33, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
Another option could be ... located in the Perth suburb of Claremont, Western Australia.... Rangasyd (talk) 08:38, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
Yes, it's more succinct, but you've simply moved the SOB / adjacent links from Perth, WA to Claremont, WA. I suggest "located in the Perth suburb of Claremont, Western Australia". Mitch Ames (talk) 08:44, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
Assuming that we've agreed.... will you now correct all that you've changed? Rangasyd (talk) 12:33, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
Claremont is in "Perth", I do and do not know where to cite that as a fact. cygnis insignis 15:14, 8 June 2019 (UTC)
@Roy McCoy: commas made me think of you, so I'm wondering if you can help us out here: is a comma enough to indicate there are two links? I think that is the question. cygnis insignis 18:28, 9 June 2019 (UTC)

The West Australian - Paywall

Kaya, please note that The West Australian is now behind a paywall, finding alternative sources may be necessary. Gnangarra 04:34, 20 June 2019 (UTC)

Final B-series

For those into trains the last B-series was delivered to Transperth today https://www.metronet.wa.gov.au/news-info/news/final-b-series-railcar-delivered?fbclid=IwAR1Ps23cCojDw_70DQKK9Fm24wc1oOmcS9Cp-AWcBLd7eSMrfxvwWm0xr5E next up C-series Gnangarra 05:26, 22 June 2019 (UTC)


Max Kay

Max has passed I cant find an article https://www.watoday.com.au/national/western-australia/curtain-falls-for-one-of-perth-s-most-loved-entertainers-20190605-p51uqd.html

Ugh! I spoke to him not so long ago, he was the same as ever and performing that evening. One of the last Perthonalities. cygnis insignis 06:18, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
There was a Memorial event in His Majesty's Theatre this afternoon (22nd June) - it was a good turn out JarrahTree 08:50, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
 Done https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Max_Kay JarrahTree 05:09, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

Change in Project/Task Force arrangement

Will try to change format of explanation in the next day or so to explain the issue... JarrahTree 05:11, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

next meetup - Toodyay 29 June

Just reminder we have been invited to the launch of Toodyaypedia stage 3 on 29th June -- Wikipedia:Meetup/Perth/59 Gnangarra 05:30, 23 June 2019 (UTC)

@Gnangarra: Sounds good! Do you have some more info about the structure of the day? Will we be e.g. working on content, walking around, hanging out at a cafe? (I mean, not that I'm not bringing my computer.) Sam Wilson 23:56, 23 June 2019 (UTC)
@Gnangarra: Sorry, don't mind me, I've just seen Wikipedia_talk:Meetup/Perth#Toodyay and found the email. Sam Wilson 00:00, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

number 60

next meetup is Sunday 21 July at the Riverton Library, cafe from 13:00, Library open 14:00 we have the Studio Space again. Wikipedia:Meetup/Perth/60 Gnangarra 13:57, 7 July 2019 (UTC)

Reminder this Sunday Gnangarra 02:44, 19 July 2019 (UTC)

Southern River, river & road/bridge images

Just thought I'd drop a note to let you all know that I took photos of Southern River (Western Australia), and Southern River road including its 1993 bridge which is soon to be altered or duplicated. All the photos are on Commons at https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Southern_River_(Western_Australia). Gnangarra 09:11, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

painting underway

Looks like someone(multiple) have got out the whitewash and brushes at Wilson Tuckey, could that some external plays are a foot. Gnangarra 10:21, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

afd

oh slumbering somnolent giant of a project, a simmering item for you hungry for news and things to do - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Power_Corporation JarrahTree 06:07, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

RIP

An important member of the Western Australian editing community has just died - [8] also know as User:Morethangrass - archivist and historian. Condolences from Wiki Club West to her family and friends, hopefully more public information about her career will eventuate. JarrahTree 14:07, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

On going this week - another Graham_Farmer; local users might want to join in the discussion at Talk:Graham_Farmer regarding the name of the article.

On going this week - another Ningali Lawford https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-08-14/ningali-lawford-wolf-passes-away/11413296

JarrahTree 04:45, 14 August 2019 (UTC)

Busselton

For the last month or so, I've been slowly working on this article, to get it from the way it was before to how it is now. My reasoning can be found on the talk page. I'm pretty happy with it now ... if anybody wants to take a look at it, feel free ... especially with images! Gnangarra, it seems like you uploaded quite a few some time ago ... Graham87 10:28, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

Nice work. Most of the images are good, although perhaps someone will agree with me that there are too many with the horizon at the mid-point. cygnis insignis 01:44, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
Could somebody fix the OCR'd text on the newspaper article ""Busselton celebrates its 100th birthday" (if not all of it, at least some relevant bits)? I've taken a bash at it but it's very hard to read for me. I'd most like to know exactly *what* they were celebrating in April 1932 .. knowing that would be kinda helpful for the Busselton history section. Graham87 12:30, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
Or was it just that the Bussell's home, Cattle Chosen, was first built in 1832? But the Bussells didn't settle there permanently until 1834. Maybe this should go on the Busselton talk page, but I'm here now ... Graham87 12:37, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
I've cleaned up ""Busselton celebrates its 100th birthday". (There a couple of bits that are completely indistinguishable.) Mitch Ames (talk) 14:51, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
Thanks for that. Unfortunately that doesn't solve some weird date discrepancies (lots of refs say the party landed in 1834, like the ADB), but it's very interesting, nonetheless. I'll ask around down here. Graham87 15:51, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
I will look around for a secondary ref, but the work often cited for early Busselton is Cattle Chosen. cygnis insignis 16:56, 3 August 2019 (UTC)
Ah yes, I forgot to mention that I'd noticed that one. Graham87 02:23, 4 August 2019 (UTC)
I ought to have been aware of that transcript, and wish it appeared on Google. The description of the country is one I have heard, "The country as we advanced improved rapidly; the ground on which we trod was a vivid green, unsullied with burnt sticks and blackened grass trees", which is an important reference to the ecological history. cygnis insignis 02:43, 4 August 2019 (UTC)
Nobody I've talked to has any idea why 8 April was chosen for the date of the centenary, the "Outstation on the Vasse" book has nothing on it either, and the Busselton Historical Society would normally be able to help me but they can't access their main building (the Butter Factory Museum) because of construction works. I can now only assume that it was a date chosen for convenience if anything else ... if July 1832 is taken to be the establishment date of Busselton (which the "Outstation" book does, as it's the date that John Bussell got his land grant), who would want to go to a beach landing re-enactment in July? I've also added the above-mentioned quote to the article, among other things. Graham87 12:23, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

Noongar sub-category for places with Noongar sites

Category:Noongar includes the places, Parkeyerring Lake, Wagin Lake, which have "a number of Aboriginal sites throughout the shire, including around the lake". I'm not sure that it's obvious that "Noongar" is a "defining characteristic" of those lakes, and there's nothing in the articles that says that they are Category:Places of Noongar significance. Should we create an appropriately-named subcategory of Category:Noongar to explain/justify their inclusion? Something along the lines of "Places with Noongar sites"? Mitch Ames (talk) 13:21, 15 August 2019 (UTC)

How will site be defined? That's a pretty broad categorisation. Hack (talk) 05:42, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
That's a pretty broad categorisation — Agreed. My inclination is to simply remove the Noongar category from the articles, but perhaps there is a specific reason to keep it. Hughesdarren, who added the category, may be able suggest something. Mitch Ames (talk) 11:38, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
Please do not remove noongar category. This is not the place to exhaustively take a large page wandering through all the issues, if there is a matter regarding 'defining characteristic' and if there is some concern as to how that fits with or doesnt fit with places of significance, this will unnecessarily overflow like similar discussions.

Some imagination is required -

aboriginal sites - occur in such a way they are not linear measurable 'items' or places, but can be in an area adjacent or nearby, depending upon the attributions given to the site, and of what is considered to give the area its significance, and in some cases depending upon the nature of the story relating to the place or area, is only partially known in public or administrative terms. In articles it is very unlikely that there will be specifics given.
noongar - as a defining characteristic, similarly - dictionary and legalistic metrics, in most cases are deliberately broad and in view of what possibly incorporate a range of stories and sites that can spread around a lake and its environs, and in many cases well beyond the officially designated sites or areas to be significantly larger in size.
Unless you actually can show an appreciation of NTT cases and documents, and any of the indigenous studies texts, or older anthropological texts, that explain the nature of what is happening when significance is discussed, I strongly advise against 'inventing' definitions of what might be 'thought' here on this page as to what might be understood to be components at the sites or adjacent places.
If you have to be led by the nose mitch (in AGF of course), I strongly suggest you leave well alone unless you can show that you have an understanding of the material that can exhibit the attributes of areas, sites, it is going to waste your times and others. I strongly recommend viewing https://www.dpc.wa.gov.au/swnts/Noongar-Heritage-and-History/Pages/default.aspx for a guideline as to where the law starts, and if that is not helpful for you, then try annexure v of https://www.dpc.wa.gov.au/swnts/Documents/Whadjuk-People-Indigenous-Land-Use-Agreement-24-02-2016-OCR.pdf and you will realise that the understanding of 'country' is not something that gets defined by your understanding of a definition of what a category might do. Please leave alone. Thanks JarrahTree 12:20, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
My understanding of "country" is not the issue here, our understanding and following of WP:CAT, and in particular WP:CATDEF, is. Could you please link/quote the relevant references that "commonly and consistently define" those specific lakes as "Noongar" (or, probably better, some sub-category thereof). Mitch Ames (talk) 12:43, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
What is "NTT"? Mitch Ames (talk) 12:45, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
Answer National_Native_Title_Tribunal JarrahTree 13:01, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
Possible sub-cat (assuming there are refs to support it): "Places over which Noongar people have native title"? (This could be quite a large category, I suspect.) Mitch Ames (talk)
No - missing the point, despite the length of the explanation here and on your talk page - native title is a totally different concept and legal framework from what the idea of a 'noongar' or 'sites' - they are not necessarily contiguous or in any way necessarily connected, but they may be... You have to get a handle on the explanation which has been given at your talk page - the notion of noongar understanding of 'country' may have lands and things that are in the native title area, but there is not necessarily always a specconnection, and in'country' you may have identified sites (and equally important sites that are not publicly identified), ... JarrahTree 13:01, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
Despite, or perhaps because of, the length of your posts, I could not find, in those posts, a specific link to or quote from a references that "commonly and consistently define" those specific lakes as "Noongar" (per WP:CATDEF and WP:DEFINING) , nor any specific suggestion (with appropriate reference) for an appropriate sub-category. No doubt they exist - so if someone could actually provide them, we could resolve the issue. Mitch Ames (talk) 13:40, 16 August 2019 (UTC)
Exactly, and why you are also missing the point there are not specific links for your way of thinking, there are things in real life that cannot fit with you way of thinking, simple as that... JarrahTree 00:50, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
It's not "my way of thinking", MOS: is the consensus of the Wikipedia community. Categorization of articles must be verifiable, using the defining characteristics of a subject of the article. Mitch Ames (talk) 01:27, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
What about "Category:Places on Noongar country" (again, potentially a very large category). Mitch Ames (talk) 01:28, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
Apologies, following a conversation in real life with another west australian editor, I think your first proposal to remove (for now) is appropriate, sorry to have responded the way I have done. The whole thing needs a major re-think, as there is a good argument to potentially totally re-work categories related to the issues. Some other time, it possibly will require a major re-think of all australian indigenous project article organisation, but not everyone is into category organisation... Enjoy the cool weather... (3 degrees predicted tonight) JarrahTree 07:50, 17 August 2019 (UTC)
Removed [9][10]. Mitch Ames (talk) 12:22, 23 August 2019 (UTC)

Noongar equals aboriginal for of the southwest of wa from Geraldton to Esperanza and the wheatbelt gn — Preceding unsigned comment added by 1.127.111.56 (talk) 05:46, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

FYI: I have restored the Noongar category, as these sites have cultural significance and that was already written in the article before the category was removed. As I stated above Noongar/Aboriginal is synonymous in the Southwest with each other, if theres more precise community name like Wadjuk, or Menang then use that as the category which should be subcats of Noongar/Nyungar/Nyungah/Nyoongar. Also there is no separation between country, place, knowledge, and culture like the way western methods express each in isolation... Gnangarra 12:40, 9 September 2019 (UTC)

I still assert that WP:CATDEF requires some evidence (e.g. WP:RS) that "commonly and consistently define" those lakes as "Noongar". Or more likely, as previously mentioned, we need:
  • an explicit statement in the article that the lakes are Category:places of Noongar significance (not just that there are Aboriginal sites around the lake, of that Noongar are the traditional owners, as the article currently states, because the jump from "Aboriginal sites" or "Noongar land" to "place of Noongar significance" is WP:SYN in the absence of an explicit, sourced, statement)
  • and/or a more specific subcategory - not just Wadjuk, Menang etc (although they could also be appropriate) but, for example, "Places with Noongar sites" or "Places on Noongar country" (both of which would be large categories, which isn't necessarily a problem)
Noongar/Aboriginal is synonymous in the Southwest with each other — Even if you provided an RS to support that statement, the jump from "southwest" to "Noongar" is still WP:SYN in the absence of something more specific in the article.
Note that I'm not disputing the significance of the lakes or the validity of Noongar culture, I'm simply trying to find a way of complying with Wikipedia's guidelines, which is what we are supposed to be doing here. Mitch Ames (talk) 13:04, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
That supposes that categorisation of realisable information is possible, which is not a precept of building wikipedia. ~ cygnis insignis 13:25, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
Noongar groups
perhaps start at Noongar top right corner is a map based on Tindales work(as much as I dislike his work) it very clear as to what is Noongar Country, actually here it it is. The jump isn't from Southwest to Noongar its from Aboriginal to Noongar for people from the southwest. Gnangarra 13:30, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
Is the plan to put all places in the south west / Noongar country in Category:Noongar culture? All places with Noongar sites nearby? If not, what specifically about Wagin Lake warrants its inclusion? Possibly the solution here is to simply add a (referenced) statement to Wagin Lake noting its meaning in Noongar culture. (Parkeyerring Lake already says "The Wait-Jen trail ...passes by the side of the lake ... follows an ancient dreamtime track taken by the Wagyl.") Mitch Ames (talk) 12:21, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
only sites with a cultural connection, other site will be places based on Noongar names, ultimately that will be broken down to smaller commonalities such as place base on fire, history, or warning like Katanning which means take note this be the place of the heart which part of the Seven Sisters story. Knowing how people hate too many small cats being made at once I make big ones then break them down with their being over 5,000 places using noongar names. Lots to do but big general categories will be the start point. Wag-in means "...means here is the site of the foot tracks from when the emu sat down.[11] ultimately it'll be in category:Noongar placenames related to the Emu Gnangarra 13:32, 10 September 2019 (UTC)
It wouldnt be all places in the southwest because some arent Noongar name, and others are in the wheatbelt, peel and Midwest not the southwest, and place like Busselton, Bunbury, Augusta, Denmark, Esperance, arent noongar names. Wait-jen trail also means Emu-feet, oh looook every one be speaking Nyoongar english(SW AU english), quick take this to WP:AWNB and the discussion on AU english Gnangarra 13:40, 10 September 2019 (UTC)

just in case we did not realise

Australian editors have significant positions relative to the early beginnings of Wikipedia...

In the most recent Signpost, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2019-08-30/News_and_notes

It is possible to see that we have intrepid and hard working editors like a certain Busselton resident...

1.3 Earliest surviving Wikipedia edits imported

Well done Graham! JarrahTree 05:49, 12 September 2019 (UTC)

Wow, thanks ... just got this! Graham87 13:19, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Busselton suburbs

In the past little while this Busselton resident has created Category:Suburbs of Busselton and its relevant articles. Could somebody add nearby suburbs, directional indicators, etc. to the infoboxes as required? I don't mind red links, if necessary. I presume the locality map linked from this page would be a reasonable starting point. Thanks! Graham87 13:19, 19 September 2019 (UTC)

Request for information on WP1.0 web tool

Hello and greetings from the maintainers of the WP 1.0 Bot! As you may or may not know, we are currently involved in an overhaul of the bot, in order to make it more modern and maintainable. As part of this process, we will be rewriting the web tool that is part of the project. You might have noticed this tool if you click through the links on the project assessment summary tables.

We'd like to collect information on how the current tool is used by....you! How do you yourself and the other maintainers of your project use the web tool? Which of its features do you need? How frequently do you use these features? And what features is the tool missing that would be useful to you? We have collected all of these questions at this Google form where you can leave your response. Walkerma (talk) 04:25, 27 October 2019 (UTC)

Perth article-class categories

Howdy,

Was just browsing deep the depths of Wikipedia maintenance areas and came across Special:WantedCategories. It essentially is an automatic list of non-existent categories that have pages categorized to them. Since WP:REDNOT is a thing, figured I'd ask if this taskforce would prefer the categories to be created (which you can obviously do yourselves) or if you want all the members to be unlinked from the categories (which I or anyone else with AWB can do fairly easily). List per below:

— IVORK Talk 07:28, 31 October 2019 (UTC)

Perth was a project for a very short time, got inserted into western australia as a task force, and a number of times in the last year or two there has been discussion about reviving the Perth project for a number of reasons,it would be great if a fellow perth enthusiast could fix this up so we could get on with a project - I have very limited access to the internat over the next x number of days, another persons help would be appreciated in facilitating the resurrection of the project - rather than task froce if at all possible. JarrahTree 10:48, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
Yeah no worries, can do later today (~5hrs+ or so). Will have to re-add all the mainpages as it looks like they have all been de-cat'd. Will do that and create Category:A-Class the Perth task force articles as well I guess. — IVORK Talk 22:59, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
Since I'll be AWBing for a while anyway, is the naming convention ok? Just seems odd to be "X-Class the Perth task force articles" — IVORK Talk 23:00, 31 October 2019 (UTC)
Seems someone got to it first, they're all re-cat'd — IVORK Talk 13:06, 2 November 2019 (UTC)

oh somnolent scorched perth residents

Although adequately identified above in the section named - 1.2 Article alerts Articles for deletion

08 Nov 2019 – Scarborough Beach bus station (talk · edit · hist) was AfDed by Steve Quinn (t · c); see discussion (8 participants)
08 Nov 2019 – Ellenbrook transfer station (talk · edit · hist) was AfDed by Steve Quinn (t · c); see discussion (8 participants)
08 Nov 2019 – Henley Brook bus station (talk · edit · hist) was AfDed by Steve Quinn (t · c); see discussion (8 participants)
08 Nov 2019 – Karrinyup bus station (talk · edit · hist) was AfDed by Steve Quinn (t · c); see discussion (8 participants)
08 Nov 2019 – Glendalough railway station (talk · edit · hist) AfDed by Steve Quinn (t · c) was closed; see

It seems that the usual suspects are nowhere to be seen - dont blame you folks in the weather as it is... JarrahTree 09:28, 15 November 2019 (UTC)

https://culture.wa.gov.au

New, presumed useful reference website for WA history and culture: "Launched today, Culture WA is a digital portal, combining collections from the State Records Office, the WA Museum, the State Library and from next year, the Art Gallery of WA."[1]
Mitch Ames (talk) 11:52, 4 December 2019 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Rebecca Carmody (2019-12-04). "The final words of CY O'Connor captured in a suicide note displayed on Culture WA website". ABC News. Retrieved 2019-12-04.
The search function seems to just replicate and combine existing searches/results. The features look like they'll be more useful for expanding/referencing articles, e.g. compare their C. Y. O'Connor with our C. Y. O'Connor. Shame they're claiming copyright / all rights reserved over everything (including public domain images). - Evad37 [talk] 10:26, 5 December 2019 (UTC)
That is why its not even worth looking at for wikipedia purposes (evad's observation re copyright) - basically useless, not designed for collaboration or anything that might suggest that there is a capacity to engage partnerships of any sort JarrahTree 10:30, 5 December 2019 (UTC)

oh somnolent beast

while the eastern seaboard of Australia burns, the great western woodlands are alight, hindering a free flow across the nullabor, and causing unbelievable over-population of places like coolgardie, and caiguna - and there is no article to join the horrible (in affect, not composition ) - 2019–20_Australian_bushfire_season - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019%E2%80%9320_Australian_bushfire_season#Western_Australia - surely there is more gripe and grunt in the caiguna and coolgardie carparks than usual ? -

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-01-03/nullarbor-road-closures-to-last-five-days-causing-food-shortages/11837324 - anyone? JarrahTree 07:27, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

All the more reason to do a "...season in Western Australia" article and stop trying to cram everything into the monster-sized main article. The Drover's Wife (talk) 07:33, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

Hi Drover's - very good point... if only... JarrahTree 07:46, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

Monika Kos

The article for Monika Kos was in AfD last year and it was redirect to the former programme Today Tonight. For now it should have enough coverage to restoring its original context in addition of her new role for 10 News First Perth. No idea where's of the start point to discuss its original context because it tas converted into redirect per previous AfD before. Shinjiman ⇔ ♨ 00:58, 13 December 2019 (UTC)

I've just restored the original content and added the additional role as a anchor on 10 for now. Just feel free to add the additional information there. Shinjiman ⇔ ♨ 02:26, 7 January 2020 (UTC)

set of mayoral stubs untouched

It would be good to see if any other editors on the WA project have opinions as to the status of the articles:

I think we might have had discussions about 8 years ago about notability of mayors (or not) - I am not sure... JarrahTree 00:23, 9 January 2020 (UTC)

Suburban council mayors have generally not fared well at AfD as a general rule. I tend to think this is often a good thing - there's usually not much in the way of existent sources beyond the obvious, many of them fade into obscurity right after their mayoral term, and they can raise some unpleasant BLP issues. First impressions would be that I'd support keeping Tagliaferri in any context because he's unusually prominent/notable (Fremantle mayors tend to draw a bit more attention than your average anyway IMHO - it's more equivalent to a major regional city), probably wouldn't keep Kenyon and could be persuaded either way about Howlett (seems to be a bit more high-profle than average). The Drover's Wife (talk) 10:17, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

Meetup reminder

This Sunday 19 January at 12:30pm at the State Library, see Wikipedia:Meetup/Perth/64 - Evad37 [talk] 00:56, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

Moved to Picabar - Evad37 [talk] 04:32, 19 January 2020 (UTC)

recovery of the Perth Project

Many thanks to evad and other sundry editors who have noted the restoration of the Perth project and assisted in resurrecting the components.

This now means that subjects relative to and locations of Perth no longer need WA or WA-importance - and is now like Melbourne or Sydney, where there is a separation very clear.

There is no need to unnecessary discussion relating to the context of the change - the scope of the project is within the current metropolitan area of Perth. Historically the Perth Project lasted a very short time before being turned into a task force with no way to evaluate material, now there is a process where the doubling up of WA and Perth can be removed. Thanks again Dave ! JarrahTree 10:09, 10 January 2020 (UTC)

I'm not sure I really agree with complete separation of Perth project from WA project parameters. Everything in Perth's scope is within WA's scope, much like everything within WA's scope is within Australia's scope. And entirely removing the connection where |Perth-importance= implies WA-importance, if |WA-importance= is not set, would immediately rate banners using that structure as "unknown" for WA-importance.
I've made some changes to the banner's sandbox that allows importance to be set separately for WA and Perth, but maintains the Perth implies WA-importance connection – and tracks such banners with a to-be-created Category:WikiProject Western Australia articles with implicit importance.
I.e project tagging remains the same:
Banner parameters Projects
{{WikiProject Australia}} Australia
{{WikiProject Australia|WA=yes}} Australia and WA
{{WikiProject Australia|WA=yes|Perth=yes}} Australia, WA and Perth
{{WikiProject Australia|Perth=yes}}
but importance can be rated separately:
Banner parameters WA importance Perth importance
|WA-importance=low only low unknown
|Perth-importance=mid only
(is tracked in the implicit importance category)		 mid mid
|WA-importance=low and |Perth-importance=mid low mid
- Evad37 [talk] 01:36, 12 January 2020 (UTC)
It is very good that you are not exactly in full agreement of the idea, I simply take it from the example of Sydney and Melbourne - as far as I can see they are separate. I think it would encourage a range of aspirations of editors wanting to increase participation and involvement with material specific to the Perth metro area. Thanks for what you have done so far, that is appreciated. JarrahTree 05:17, 12 January 2020 (UTC)
@JarrahTree:  Done. It may take a bit of time for the categories to populate themselves. - Evad37 [talk] 03:24, 16 January 2020 (UTC)
proposal - after the very good work done so far - I would propose that the Perth items have the WA items removed (over time) - close look at Sydney and Melbourne - there is no need to keep the WA project tied to the items... JarrahTree 05:05, 17 January 2020 (UTC)
following discussion at todays meetup - the two projects project tags are fine to remain on the same page JarrahTree 08:38, 19 January 2020 (UTC)

AM radio in Western Australia - lead section

Editors are invited to comment at Talk:AM radio in Western Australia#Lead section on the relative merits of two versions [12][13] of the lead section. Mitch Ames (talk) 14:14, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

Next meetup

Wikipedia:Meetup/Perth/65 has been dated as the 1st of February to coincide with the anniversary of the first WA meetup (Wikipedia:Meetup/Perth/1) but there are no details as yet. Gnangarra 11:20, 27 January 2020 (UTC)

cancelled JarrahTree 04:53, 30 January 2020 (UTC)

New region maps?

This evening at the WikiClubWest Riff meetup we were experimenting with new (unlabelled) maps of the regions:

  • New Great Southern
    New Great Southern
  • Existing Great Southern for comparison
    Existing Great Southern for comparison

Just putting them here for interests' sake. I just replaced the old one on Peel (Western Australia) as an example, but feel free to revert. I sort of think it'd be best to make these maps with mapframes and vector data, but that's more than an evening's work... :-)

—Sam Wilson 09:36, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

Looks good to me. The Drover's Wife (talk) 11:28, 23 January 2020 (UTC)
as proposer, very very pleased with the result... JarrahTree 11:50, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

I tried doing a geoJson conversion the other day at c:Data:Sandbox/Evad37/Department_of_Primary_Industries_and_Regional_Development_(Western_Australia)/Regional_Development_Commission_Boundaries/Kimberley.map (turns out Commons data can have licences other than CC0) but I couldn't get it to work :( - Evad37 [talk] 12:36, 23 January 2020 (UTC)

I didn't realise we could do CC-BY data there too! That's great to know. I'll investigate that some more then; would probably be a better way to do it. Sam Wilson 00:24, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

@Evad37, The Drover's Wife, and JarrahTree: We figured it out last night at Riff, and now have the following maps and added them to the region articles:

Sam Wilson 21:31, 6 February 2020 (UTC) For whatever reason it better to look at and check the new maps inside the articles they have been placed, rather than in the commons item, as strange things happen there (it seems) JarrahTree 23:37, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

@Samwilson and JarrahTree: Another interesting thing we can do is overlay roads, or other map data, on top of the region maps – see Major roads in the Wheatbelt region of Western Australia - Evad37 [talk] 01:13, 9 February 2020 (UTC)
Thanks Evad - Becuase they are dynamic and adjustable for overlays and other devices -I am sure in time there are lots of things we can do with the maps - thanks for the example. JarrahTree 10:18, 9 February 2020 (UTC)

List of places on the State Register of Heritage Places in the City of Albany listed at Requested moves

A requested move discussion has been initiated for List of places on the State Register of Heritage Places in the City of Albany to be moved to List of heritage places in Albany. This page is of interest to this WikiProject and interested members may want to participate in the discussion here. —RMCD bot 23:18, 10 February 2020 (UTC)

To opt out of RM notifications on this page, transclude {{bots|deny=RMCD bot}}, or set up Article alerts for this WikiProject.

Scope of Category:National Trust of Western Australia

According to Category:National Trust of Western Australia, it is for both

Properties of the Trust, as well as localities and structures that have been Registered by the Trust"

I suggest that conflating the two is not helpful to the reader, and that there should be two sub-categories (which may overlap):

  • Properties owned or used by the Trust
  • Properties registered (e.g. on a heritage list) by the Trust

Mitch Ames (talk) 09:42, 11 February 2020 (UTC)

do it mitch !!! JarrahTree 09:50, 11 February 2020 (UTC)
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