Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard/Archive 229
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Muhammad Ali Jinnah
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
![]() | Closed as resolved. Uzek has proposed a change to the wording of the statement that Jinnah is sometimes referred to as a muhajir, and there has been no objection, so there is consensus that Uzek can make that change. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:37, 7 March 2023 (UTC) |
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview The issue is regarding the ethnicity of Muhammad Ali Jinnah. It is already mentioned he has Gujarati origins but another editor put in that he is also an "ethnic Muhajir" (immigrant) since his parents migrated before partition of Pakistan to Pakistani territory. To sum it up, a Muhajir is a person who is a Muslim who immigrated to Pakistan from Indian territory AFTER the India-Pakistan partition. Jinnah was born in Karachi and was raised there,so he is not in anyway classified as a "Muhajir". The editor insists so only because his parents migrated BEFORE partition and forcing this identity on him by claiming he left Karachi and spent his political career in Bombay (Indian territory) which he left in the 1947 partition, though he also owned property in the future Pakistani territory of Karachi before partition. Plus this identity evolved over time as an "ethnic group" in a specific region (Sindh) because of politics. It's status as an "ethnic identity" didn't exist in the first decade of partition. Lastly, his first language was Gujarati and the "Muhajir" ethnic identity in Pakistan is used as an alternative for the "Urdu-speaking" community since they were the predominant group that came. Many other migrants like Bengalis, Afghans, etc who immigrated are not grouped into this identity. This identity is therefore not fixed and very flexible. The editor has provided a source which calls Jinnah a "Muhajir" in an article where the politics of ethnicities in Pakistan is discussed, which categorised Jinnah to be one since no other term for him probably came to mind. But this categorization is a rare opinion. I've provided sources on the talk page to back my claims and how many sources contradict the need for this categorization. I've also asked the editor I'm in conflict with to counter the 3 points I have raised, to which they didnot respond and asked to bring in a third opinion instead. Will be thankful for your cooperation. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Muhammad_Ali_Jinnah#Ethnic_Muhajir How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? By helping decide if the mention of him being "ethnic Muhajir" should be kept or not since the history of his parent's migration + his Gujarati origins is mentioned in the article hence unnecessary to stuff in this newly evolved term.
Summary of dispute by Flamealpha123Firstly, I want to clear some misunderstanding regarding this dispute and that is the importance of the place of settlement of Jinnah's parents and his birhtplace. Being a muhajir, as I will discuss later, has nothing to do with where your parents lived or where you were born, but what matters is your ethnicity and location at the time around the Partition.
My sources proving Jinnah fits into the definition:
Anyone who believes Jinnah is not an muhajir should try to prove that he does not fit this definition. Uzek claims jinnah can not be considered a muhajir because:
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I also have reliable sources clearly stating Jinnah was a muhajir: There are many sources that indirectly state that Jinnah was a muhajir but to keep this short I will not include them. First statement by moderator (Jinnah)I am willing to moderate this dispute. It appears that there is discussion taking place here, and the discussion may be useful, so we will use a set of rules that permit back-and-forth discussion. Be civil and concise. Please read the rules and acknowledge that you agree to them. It appears that the issue is whether Jinnah, who is regarded as the founder of Pakistan, can be referred to as a Muhajir, which refers to Muslims who migrated from what is now India to Pakistan. Is that the primary issue? Are there any other content issues? Please answer those questions in the area for first statements, and you may continue discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:09, 20 February 2023 (UTC) First statements by editors (Jinnah)Yes, that the only issue. Besides the summaries, detailed discussion is present on the article talk page and the second statement. Would add to it if further questions asked or if Flamealpha likes to comment on it. Muhammad Ali Jinnah discussion (Back-and-forth)Hey there, We can't call Muhammad Ali Jinnah, the founder of Pakistan, a "Muhajir" throughout his article. I'm sorry. It doesn't matter "where he was" during the Partition of India, because he is the one who partitioned India in the first place. We can have a neutral sentence that discusses why he may be considered a Muhajir for "certain analyses", e.g. since he is an ethnic Gujarati (on both sides) and spent much of his political life in India. We can even consider him a "Muslim migrant" during the Partition of India. For these reasons, calling him "Muhajir" is not inaccurate. It's just not entirely accurate either. Generally "Muhajir" refers to refugees affected by the Partition and their descendants -- Muhammad can't be considered a "Muslim refugee" when he instigated the cause for the immigrations in the first place. My vote is that there be a single reference to him being considered Muhajir, maybe like this: "Muhammad Ali Jinnah has been considered a Muhajir in certain analyses because of his Gujarati ethnicity and the fact much of his political life was spent in India before the Partition.(your refs here) However, labelling him a "Muhajir" is equivocal due to the definition of that term being related to the Partition of India that Muhammad himself caused.(more refs here)" And just leave it at that? Let me know what you two think. Thanks :) LightProof1995 (talk) 19:27, 18 February 2023 (UTC) Second statement by editorThankyou for your response! I agree that this info should be included only if it paints both sides of the picture of why or why not he may be "considered a Muhajir". But the problem with words like "in certain analysis" or similar such wordings would be, to my knowledge, no analysis of him being "considered" a Muhajir is published yet, because this topic holds no relevance in public discourse in Pakistan. The consideration of him being one based on much of his political life being spent in Bombay is not published either, it's just this editor's (Flamealpha123) personal opinion. The editor has provided only TWO sources which they claim to call Jinnah a "Muhajir". I think the editor mistakenly included the Jaffrelot source ( https://www.worldcat.org/title/949668196 ), since I read the whole shortbook on ethnic politics in Pakistan today and no where does Jaffrelot call Jinnah a Muhajir? Requesting the editor to go through it and cite the paragraph where it claims so (it is not there). The second and only source which categorises Jinnah to be a Muhajir (rare opinion) is the one I have a problem with. This is the paragraph: "WHICH ethnicity and class has ruled us the most? Each era has a ruling clan with a top honcho and kitchen cabinet. But for ease, I focus on the former (ignoring dummy prime ministers). Jinnah (middle-class Mohajir); Liaquat Ali (landowner Mohajir), Bhuttos/Zardari (landowner Sindhis) and Sharif (industrialist Punjabi) were political and/or elected rulers." ( https://www.dawn.com/news/1357045 ) Besides the writer calling Jinnah a Muhajir (unnecessary categorization), he also goes on to call former prime minister Nawaz Sharif a Punjabi (misinformation) when he in fact was a Kashmiri (mentioned in his wikipedia biography). This writer's article hence needs to be discarded as a source of how ill-informed he is of existence of other minority ethnicities in Pakistan and grouped them all into the majority known ones. Many reliable sources exist which do not categorise Jinnah as a Muhajir in such published articles, rather just mention his Gujrati origins. For example, this one from Britannica: "Jinnah had worked hard to mollify competing and ambitious provincial leaders, and Liaquat Ali Khan, himself a refugee (muhajir) from India, simply did not have the stature to pick up where Jinnah had left off." https://www.britannica.com/place/Pakistan/Birth-of-the-new-state See the contradiction? One source calls both Muhammad Ali Jinnah AND Liaquat Ali Khan the first leaders of the newly formed state of Pakistan Muhajir while the other (also reliable) source doesn't. (Because Liaquat fits in perfectly with the definition of a Muhajir, while Jinnah doesn't).
I see. But the pattern of both these sources is "Ethnic politics in Pakistan" and "which majority ethnic group rules" to create a narrative of who dominates Pakistan. Hence the bias towards grouping them all into major known categories. Mentioning any outlier (minority ethnic group with sparse numbers) that has ruled Pakistan doesn't get a mention in both. While the Britannica I mentioned which is contradictory to these sources or many similar sources on general history always use the clear cut definition of the term Muhajir, hence no mention of Jinnah being one in most. Now it's up to the moderator to decide who must know better regarding the policies of inclusion of such terms which have no consensus/aren't black and white. Third statement by moderator (Jinnah)I see that one editor has made a second statement, so I will skip making a second statement and make a third statement. Do not reply to each other in your third statements. Address them to the moderator, who represents the community. I see that an editor who is not yet listed as one of the parties, User:Uzek, has joined the discussion. Do you, Uzek, agree to abide by the rules? Are there any other issues besides whether Jinnah can be referred to as a Mujahir? Will each editor please list all of the specific places in the article that they either want changed or left the same because of the question of whether that characterization applies to Jinnah? Robert McClenon (talk) 22:20, 21 February 2023 (UTC) Third statements by editors (Jinnah)Yes, I have read the rules and agree to abide by them. This was the first version of the sentence. "He is considered to be an ethnic Muhajir" over which the dispute had started. Now it has been modified to "Muhammad Ali Jinnah has been called a Muhajir by some writers because of his Gujarati ethnicity and the fact much of his political life was spent in pre-modern-day India before the Partition. However, labelling him a "Muhajir" is equivocal due to that definition generally referring to Muslim refugees of the partition Jinnah himself instigated." by a volunteer editor. The issue is over if the term "Muhajir" should even be included to begin with, since there is clear proof as stated in above discussions that the term has no consensus. And detailed analysis of him being one or not has not been published in writing in reliable sources, which makes it difficult to include it since wikipedia doesn't use opinionated text outside of reliable sources. (Per: WP: SYNTHESIS) Uzek (talk) Fourth statement by moderator (Jinnah)Will each editor please identify each place where Jinnah is referred to as a mujahir. Are there any other issues besides whether Jinnah can be referred to as a mujahir? Robert McClenon (talk) 07:48, 25 February 2023 (UTC) Hey everyone, Sorry I've been extremely busy and haven't had the time until now to look at this again. There are a couple of reasons why I believe some mention of him being called a Muhajir will have to be in his article. First, the sentence about him being considered a Muhajir was in the article before these two editors came along in February. It originally read, "He was of a Gujarati Khoja Nizari Isma'ili Shi’a Muslim background, though Jinnah was considered an ethnic Muhajir because of his Indian background.". I've now changed it to "Muhammad Ali Jinnah has been called a Muhajir by some writers because of his Gujarati ethnicity and the fact much of his political life was spent in pre-modern-day India before the Partition. However, labelling him a "Muhajir" is equivocal due to that definition generally referring to Muslim refugees of the partition Jinnah himself instigated." Note the keywords/phrases here: some writers and equivocal; I chose these words to highlight labelling him Muhajir is disputed. To me, even saying "writers" is a stance on the term being contested because generally we'd prefer to say "authors" or "scholars". Saying "some writers" instead of just "writers" also highlights the term is disputed (in favor of those considering him not a Muhajir). If we just said "writers" it would point to more acceptance of the term being applied to him. Second, I assume the sources provided call him a Muhajir. The full text for these books aren't online. I've opened the "Pakistan at the crossroads" as a Google ebook preview online and searched for "Muhajir", but nothing came up. "Searching "Mohajir" brought up results but none related to Jinnah specifically. This proves nothing as it is just a preview, but you see the problem: I'm not going to the library to check this book out to verify the claim (I have no car, sorry). Same with the other source. Since I can't verify, I have to go with what was already on the page as the consensus before these editors came along, unless someone wants to check out/buy those books to verify the claim. Note Uzek says they read a shortbook on ethnicities in Pakistan by the same author and it never called Jinnah a Muhajir, so they requested a page and paragraph citation for the reference, and FlameAlpha seems to have provided this. FlameAlpha says on page 10, there is this sentence: "The disappearance of these two muhajir politicians (Jinnah and Liaquat) left the democratically inclined Bengalis in a face off with the Punjabi elites." A third party reviewing these sources would be great, but it can't be me. However, I feel there is a strong case that these sources do indeed call Jinnah a Muhajir, given the fact these sources were listed before these editors came along, and the fact FlameAlpha has provided a page reference and sentence for one of the sources. Third, this sentence from Britannica was brought up as evidence Jinnah is not considered a Muhajir: "Jinnah had worked hard to mollify competing and ambitious provincial leaders, and Liaquat Ali Khan, himself a refugee (muhajir) from India, simply did not have the stature to pick up where Jinnah had left off." From what I can tell, this sentence neither confirms nor denies Jinnah can be considered a Muhajir. To summarize, I feel the article was skewed towards the Jinnah-is-a-Muhajir (FlameAlpha) view, and I've now adjusted it to be neutral and take into account the Jinnah-is-not-a-Muhajir (Uzek) view. Especially the word "equivocal", I am surprised this was not good enough to close this case -- does it not highlight the term has no consensus? LightProof1995 (talk) 14:10, 25 February 2023 (UTC) Fourth statements by editors (Jinnah)LightProof1995, it was edited into the article some months ago by editor Flamealpha in June 2022, the reason why she's so defensive over it. (I would've linked the edit here but can't for some reason). Her account is dedicated to this identity and the political party Muttahida Qaumi Movement – London (Muhajir nationalists) I'm not the only editor who has challenged her on this view, maybe only on this page because it has not reached enough people to see how wrong it sounds She has been challenged for inserting Jinnah on the Muhajir article itself and the List of Muhajir people article by completely different people. (would've linked them too if the option was visible on my device) I was trying to stretch and discuss all my points in complete detail (many which were left unsaid) since Flamealpha wouldn't engage with me on the talk page properly Think I'll just withdraw the case and accept your version since you say the Britannica source is not enough. I used it as an example to make it easier for volunteers to understand the issue, since the other option is plastering a burdensome wall of texts on the definition of a Muhajir Thankyou for your edits! Uzek
I think I've done my part on proving why it could be WP:UNDUE. Yes, leave it as it I think until new sources are published (or found?) to modify it further. Uzek
Fifth statement by moderator (Jinnah)I will again state that when I said to be civil and concise, that meant to be concise. Overly long statements do not clarify the issues, even if they make the author feel better. Please answer these questions concisely. If you have already answered them, maybe the length of the answers has made it hard for me to find the answer. Do not reply to the answers of other editors. Are there any issues other than whether Jinnah should be referred to as a muhajir? Please identify all of the places in the article where Jinnah is referred to as a mujahir. Do not expand on the identification; just locate it. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:00, 27 February 2023 (UTC) Fifth statements by editors (Jinnah)1. "WHICH ethnicity and class has ruled us the most? Each era has a ruling clan with a top honcho and kitchen cabinet. But for ease, I focus on the former (ignoring dummy prime ministers). Jinnah (middle-class Mohajir); Liaquat Ali (landowner Mohajir), Bhuttos/Zardari (landowner Sindhis) and Sharif (industrialist Punjabi) were political and/or elected rulers." https://www.dawn.com/news/1357045 2. Claimed by Flamealpha:- (pg.10 section:Introduction) The disappearance of these two muhajirs politicians (Jinnah and Liaquat) left the democratically inclined Bengalis in a face off with the Punjabi elites. https://www.worldcat.org/title/949668196 Yes there is no other issue except he being referred to as Muhajir (Pakistan) Sixth statement by moderator (Jinnah)I was not asking where books or other sources call him a Mujahir. I was asking where the article calls him a Mujahir, since that is the content issue. A search of the article for "Muhajir" finds that the phrase appears in the article in two sentences:
This portion states that his status as a muhajir is equivocal. It is also sourced. Does anyone think that it needs to be changed? If so, how? It also appears as a link to an article in the context that he provided aid to the Muslim migrants into Pakistan, but the word does not appear in the article, and in a category. So exactly what change does anyone think should be made to the article? Robert McClenon (talk) 22:35, 1 March 2023 (UTC) Sixth statements by editors (Jinnah)Can we just change the sentence to "though the term Muhajir is equivocal due to the definition usually refering to Muslims refugees who migrated after partition" and change the source with a source defining what a Muhajir is? This one doesn't mention anything about him instigating the migration. And removing the sentence would still not look appropriate if we're also specifying the term has no consensus. Let's close the case with this modification, if anyone doesn't disagree. Uzek (talk) 03:44, 4 March 2023 (UTC) Seventh statement by Moderator (Jinnah)What information if any that is now in the article should be removed or changed from the article? If you are requesting that anything be changed, please make a one-paragraph statement. If there is no response within 24 hours, this case will be closed. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:50, 4 March 2023 (UTC) Seventh statements by editors (Jinnah)"Jinnah has often been referred to as a Muhajir by some writers because of his Gujarati ethnicity. However, labelling him a "Muhajir" is equivocal due to that definition generally referring to Muslim refugees from India who migrated to Pakistan after the 1947 partition." This source will also be included to refer to the definition. https://www.britannica.com/place/Pakistan/People#ref989666 I've trimmed out the part in the sentence where it says that he is also referred to as Muhajir due to "much of his political life being spent in India before partition" because this also doesn't appear in the sources, and was Flamealpha's personal opinion. I will change it after the case is closed. And also, anywhere else in Wikipedia where Flamealpha has portrayed Jinnah as a Muhajir an encyclopedic entry will have to go unless she also specifies the uncertainty regarding it everywhere. This includes the Muhajir and the List Muhajir people article. Uzek (talk) 08:53, 4 March 2023 (UTC) Eighth statement by Moderator (Jinnah)Is there agreement to change the wording of the sentence in question about Jinnah as a muhajir? If there is agreement, or no disagreement, I will close this dispute as resolved. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:45, 5 March 2023 (UTC) Eighth statements by editors (Jinnah)More back-and-forth discussion (Jinnah)
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Podu Dâmboviței
![]() | Closed as a policy dispute rather than an article content dispute. The question is whether villages should be considered notable in countries in which they are not legally recognized. The reason why articles on villages in various other countries are kept, but not in Romania, appears to be that in some countries villages are legally recognized municipalities, but in Romania they are not legally recognized. If the filing editor thinks that the current geographic notability guideline should be revised, the best forum for discussion is the geographic notability talk page. General discussion of policy is also in order at Village pump (policy). If there is an issue about a specific article on a village that has been created, but then cut down to a redirect, a decision on whether to keep or to redirect the article should be made at Articles for Deletion. But since this is a policy dispute, the best place for the discussion is the geographic notability talk page. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:51, 9 March 2023 (UTC) |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview For most countries of the world, Wikipedia accepts articles for villages of these countries. There are categories for these villages in Bangladesh or North Macedonia., However there is an exception which covers the two Romanian talking countries Romania the Republic of Moldova. I would expect Wikipedia to apply the same rules to Kall countries. There should not be second hand countries having villages unworthy to have a separate article. All information regarding these villages are included in the articles if the communes in which they are included. This is incorrect as communes are administrative units, whereas villages are settlements. I suggest that there should be a consistent approach with the same rules applicable all countries of the world/ At present the same rule is applied to big countries, such as Russia, and small countries such a Liechtenstein. What is wrong with Romania and the Republic of Moldova? This issue has been discussed with User:Biruitorul for several years but no consensus has been reached.Afil (talk) 19:40, 7 March 2023 (UTC) How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? [Recently Podu Dâmboviței and Dâmbocicioara. It makes no sense to move the article back and forth. How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? I consider that a solution consistent with the general approach of Wikipedia, applicable to similar articles for all the countries of the world. Summary of dispute by BiruitorulPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
First, the framing of this issue is absurd: no one is targeting anyone, it’s merely a technical matter. Second, WP:GEOLAND presumes notability for “populated, legally recognized places”. Therefore, there’s nothing the matter with having separate articles only for the smallest administrative unit — i.e. the commune. This is of course preferable to having another 9000 or so permanent stubs, rather than covering a few tiny populated places with no legal personality under the same umbrella. (Something that, needless to say, also benefits the reader by presenting the topic in a more coherent fashion.) Finally, this issue (or non-issue) has been raised several times by the same user during the last 15 years (yes, really): no one else seems bothered by it, and it’s time to move on to more productive endeavors, like adding content, even if beneath the commune aegis. — Biruitorul Talk 20:01, 7 March 2023 (UTC)
Podu Dâmboviței discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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Ahsoka (TV series)
![]() | Closed. All of the parties have stated that this dispute can be closed. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:57, 13 March 2023 (UTC) |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview I added missing relevant and useful information, backed by reliable sources, on an already pretty thin article and was reverted multiple times. after being asked to reach a consensus on the talk page i stated the relevance of my edits and my lack of understanding about the perceived problem with it. My arguments were frankly kinda ignored and it was just multiple times (in long, but in terms of content frankly rather short, answers) said that i would add unnecessary information in "often in the style of a fansite or wikia". Many of my informations and section (plot, release as said by actress, marketing, much of information about characters) were and still are completely lacking from and relevant for the article (and relevant and useful information for people that search for it (which was why i edited it in the first place)) (I also generally find the general attitude of just reverting complete edits (which where kind of work) instead of changing individual points or consider if maybe its a good or better style and state as before, pretty annoying.) After multiple very long messasges i waited a few days but I honestly still don't understand the problems they seem to have with my edits.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? Talk:Ahsoka (TV series)#Reach consensus on recent edits How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? Mostly talk with Favre1fane about his concerns and his attitude concerning states of articles, edits and reverting and find a consensus and resolution about the state of a somewhat thin article.. Summary of dispute by Favre1fan93Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
This feels like a completely unnecessary step when the talk page was fully sufficient for this type of discussion. I was the reverting editor and provided full explanations to the user's edits and why they were undo, which where (in whole or partially) agreed with by 2pou, Adamstom.97 and Jauerback. I won't rehash any of it here, it can all be viewed on the talk page. This feels like the user is WP:NOTGETTINGIT seeing as they said above
Summary of dispute by JauerbackPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by adamstom97Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
I feel that I wasn't really involved in this dispute. I have the article on my watchlist and put in my two cents at the talk page discussion is all. My opinion is that UnkreativeFrog made some unsupported changes to the article that were reverted and when they didn't like the answers given at the talk page they decided to come here. Unfortunately consensus is against them and I doubt this dispute resolution process is going to change that. Favre1fan93 gave detailed reasoning at the article's talk page for why the changes were reverted, which I agree with. - adamstom97 (talk) 00:12, 12 March 2023 (UTC) Ahsoka (TV series) discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
Zeroth statement by moderator (Ahoksa)I see that at least two editors who were not listed by the filing party have made comments. They are welcome to discuss along with the named editors, but I will add their names to the list of named editors if they plan to continue participating. I will try to be the moderator. Will the editors please all read the usual rules and say whether you want to take part in moderated discussion? Each editor is also asked to say concisely, in one paragraph, what they wanted changed in the article, or what they want left the same that another editor wants changed. Robert McClenon (talk) 07:36, 11 March 2023 (UTC) Zeroth statements by editors (Ahoksa)
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Picts
![]() | Closed as failed. It isn't entirely clear whether the filing editor wants to discuss article content, editor conduct, or both. The other editors do not wish to engage in discussion of article content, so that one remaining vehicle for dispute resolution is a Request for Comments. The filing editor should read the boomerang essay before starting a discussion of conduct. I would advise against trying to discuss any conduct issue that has already been dealt with. I would also advise against looking for buried insults. However, if you want to discuss editor conduct, the place for such discussion is WP:ANI. A discussion of article content is always in order at the article talk page, Talk:Picts; that's what article talk pages are for. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:58, 15 March 2023 (UTC) |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview Mutt Lunker had me blocked instead of trying to discuss my additions to the Picts page. I was accused of vandalism when my edits were sourced and attributed. I was originally told by Mutt perhaps I should've used my sandbox, which I'd never used before, but when I realized that and apologized right away, it did not matter and he continued to discuss my "behavior" on the talk page instead of the content itself. I sure am sorry if this isn't the place for this. I tried to keep the discussion at Talk:Picts about the content but they kept harassing me about how I edited the article too much at one time. Maybe all that belongs somewhere else, but I wouldn't know where. Anyway, to focus on the content: The information I added was about how the Romans, like Julius Caesar and Pliny the Elder, stated Celtic Britons would paint themselves in various terms that are now translated as "woad". The etymology of the word "Picts" means "painting", and the article didn't mention painting at all before I came along. Other editors tried to argue this wouldn't apply to the Picts, but this simply isn't true -- you can see my arguments on the talk page where I clearly describe how the words the Romans used could apply to the Picts just as much as the Celtic Britons in southern Britain, but it did not matter, they had me blocked and then asked me if my sources ever specifically said "Picts", which guess what? They did. I added a source by the Roman poet Claudian where he clearly states the Picts were tattooed, which my edits were also about. I think the current state of the article, where it suggests the Picts weren't tattooed at all in the Society section and the entire article doesn't even mention painting, is completely unacceptable. The version Mutt undid three days ago I thought was the best; check out my sandbox for a longer, more-detailed version. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? Talk:Picts#Good_faith_revert User_talk:Mutt_Lunker#Picts User_talk:LightProof1995#February_2023 How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? By actually focusing on the content instead of my "behavior". LightProof1995 (talk) 02:55, 8 March 2023 (UTC) Summary of dispute by Mutt LunkerPer Talk:Picts#Good_faith_revert, your sources regarding woad give no indication that they relate specifically to the Picts, the topic of the article. The conjecture that they do is WP:OR, so has no place here. The article already covered the topic of tattooing and the Picts. As far as I can see, the source you use to support your assertion that "The pigments for these tattoos and paints could have been derived from woad" relates to Britons, actively casts doubt that woad was used by them and refers to neither Picts nor tattooing. Though the dispute is demonstrably in regard to content, if you war, your behaviour is hardly going to escape attention. WP:BRD is not BRRD. Mutt Lunker (talk) 11:02, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by CeoilAs outlined by Catfish Jim below, this is an exhausting attempt to bludgeon SYNTH into the article. I took the article of my watchlist a few weeks back in dismay, and hadn't realised until now that LightProof had been since blocked for their behavior on the article. I don't plan on re-watching anytime soon, although the topic is closely within my usual editing area. Ceoil (talk) 22:23, 9 March 2023 (UTC)
Picts discussionThis is beyond the point of disruptive behaviour. LightProof1995 is bludgeoning his original research, attempting to synthesise a narrative that does not exist in academic circles. I have been observing this dispute from the sidelines for some time while not having the time to be directly involved in the discussion. I am involved through my interest in the subject and my history of editing the article so I will recuse myself from any admin actions. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 21:38, 8 March 2023 (UTC)
Zeroth statement by moderator (Picts)I will try to mediate or moderate this dispute if the editors agree that they want moderated dispute resolution. Please read the usual rules. If you are willing to take part in moderated discussion, please say that you have read the rules and will follow them. In particular, please stop the back-and-forth discussion, which has just gone back and forth. Be civil and concise. Comment on content, not contributors. It appears that there is an issue about synthesis, the combining of the ideas of two reliable sources to come to a conclusion that is not explicitly stated by either of the sources. The combining of the ideas of two sources is considered original research in a subtle way, but is still original research. I am asking each editor to state, in one paragraph, what they think is the main issue with this article. You may use multiple paragraphs if you identify multiple issues, but be concise. If the only issue is synthesis or other original research, the issue will likely be better decided at the original research noticeboard, but I am willing to try to moderate this dispute, at least to determine what the issues are. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:33, 10 March 2023 (UTC) Zeroth statements by editors (Picts)Thanks Robert :) I've now read the rules you linked. Here is my paragraph: The woad article currently states that the northern inhabitants of Britain came to be known as "Picts" by the Romans because they painted their bodies or possibly tattooed themselves.[8] The Picts article only mentioned that the etymology of "Picts" is that it means "painted" in Latin, but then says nothing about how the Picts possibly painted themselves. So, I included edits saying that Julius Caesar and Pliny the Elder reported that the Celtic Britons would paint themselves in various terms that are now translated as "woad", but originally may have meant "glass" and "green", respectively.[2][3] Even Britannica's short entry on the Picts states: "Their name may refer to their custom of body painting, or possibly tattooing."[9] There seems to be confusion as to whether the Picts are Britons and if the comments by Caesar and Pliny can apply to them. From what I can tell, The Romans assigned the term "Picts" to the Celtic Britons they were unable to conquer in northern Britain,[10] which matches what the woad article currently says. Furthermore, I added an additional source by the Roman poet Claudian where he says the Picts were tattooed[11] and that was reverted as well, even though there was already consensus elsewhere in the article that the Picts tattooed themselves. WP:OR only occurs if the editor didn't provide reliable sources that clearly state what the editor themselves are stating, but I provide multiple sources that say exactly what I say. Word for word, here are what my reliable and academic sources state: "Caesar describes the use of body paint by ancient Britons: "All the Britons, indeed, dye themselves with woad.""; "There is a plant in Gaul, similar to the plantago in appearance, and known there by the name of glastum: with it both married women and girls among the people of Britain are in vile habit of staining the body all over, when taking part in the performance of certain sacred rites"; "the legion that kept the fierce Scots in check, whose men had scanned the strange devices tattooed on the faces of the dying Picts.". I see no reason why Wikipedia's woad article and Britannica's Picts article can state painting as the most likely etymology for the word Picts and cite Caesar, but not Wikipedia's Picts article itself!! Edit: Here is an additional source that makes the synthesis for me:[12] "Prior to the sixth century, the Pictish system seems not to have existed. However the very name "Picts" (from the Latin Picti) almost certainly means the "painted people." The original name for the inhabitants of Britain as a whole, the Prettani, may originally have meant the "people of the designs/symbols." Looking at both names in conjunction, it may well be that the pre-Roman Britons and the post-Roman Picts were both particularly associated with symbolic motifs long before the Picts developed their script. It is conceivable that the sculpted characters derived from earlier motifs used for body painting." I hope that helps :) LightProof1995 (talk) 02:10, 10 March 2023 (UTC) Firstly, I'd like to commend LightProof1995 for their tenacity. I would however urge them to not confuse strength of feeling with evidence, and to become more acquainted with Wikipedia policy on referencing. There is a tendency for new editors in this and related subjects to get hung up on what is said in primary sources without cross-referencing with academically accepted secondary sources, relevant policy is found in WP:PRIMARY. Accepted secondary sources in these regards would be textbooks that can be found in university course reading lists for History modules dealing specifically with the mediaeval history of Northern Britain. A reasonably full list would include:
In relation to specific points, tattooing is already discussed in the article in as much depth as it is given in secondary sources, which always relate to etymology. One of the main objections to expanding discussion beyond this is the complexity of the ethnogenesis of the Picts. While we have records of "Pict" as a Latin pejorative exonym (a racial slur if you like) in the 3rd century CE, its adoption as an ethnonym and endonym is much later, as late as the 7th century CE. There is no evidence for cultural unity before this. In terms of including tattooing in the society section of the article, there is no strong evidence that tattooing was a custom that the ethnic group that called themselves "Picts" actually practiced. Contemporary sources close to the Picts (like Bede) did not mention it. There is an early 7th century reference by Isidore of Seville in his Etymologiae to Pictish nobility having tattoos, but it is unclear how reliable this is given his heavy reliance on Pliny the Elder (1st century CE) and Gaius Julius Solinus (3rd century CE). Any temptation to assume a unity of cultural practices in pre-Roman Britain that extends into the Pictish era should be rejected as over-simplistic and misleading. Markus warns against such simplification in the preface to Conceiving a Nation. We know that there were many ethnically distinct kingdoms in Roman times. Julius Caesar's reference to the Britons needs to be framed in the context of his first hand experience of these peoples, which was limited to the Cantiaci and Cenimagni. He states that merchants involved in cross-channel trade were unable or unwilling to supply him with any information about the people. His gains in the second invasion of 54 BCE did not extend to within 350 miles of the area later known as Pictland. We cannot take statements made by him as relating to the peoples of Northern Scotland. We also know that the Romans did not view the people of Northern Scotland as a politically or culturally unified people. Ptolemy in his Geography records 14 distinct tribes living in the area that later became Pictland. Fraser is explicit on this: "Whatever we make of the appearance of Picti in our sources in late Antiquity, then, we may feel assured that the term does not refer to a single political community or ethnic solidarity. There is no convincing evidence that it did so much before 700." I have reviewed the literature regarding Claudian and will include it in the article, referenced to a secondary source. I find no compelling reason to include Julius Caesar or Pliny the Elder in the article. It would be an anachronism. Worse still is the suggestion that we should mention Ötzi, who lived 4,000 years before the ethnogenesis of the Picts and 900 miles from their border. While tattooing is mentioned in secondary sources in relation to the etymological origin of the word "Pict" (and not as the sole possibility), no mention of how it might have been done is covered in any serious source. We simply do not have any evidence of it at all. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 13:12, 10 March 2023 (UTC) References
First statement by moderator (Picts)The zeroth statements by two editors are too long to be useful, except to illustrate lengthy disagreement. Please read the rules again, including the rule to be civil and concise. @LightProof1995, Catfish Jim and the soapdish, Ceoil, and Mutt Lunker: – Are you interested in moderated discussion? If only one editor is interested in moderated discussion, I will close this case with a recommendation to take any remaining dispute to the original research noticeboard. If you want to engage in moderated discussion, please make a one-paragraph statement about what you think the issue is or issues are. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:30, 14 March 2023 (UTC) First statements by editors (Picts)Thank you for your efforts @Robert McClenon: I suggest this discussion is indeed closed. Catfish Jim and the soapdish 18:09, 14 March 2023 (UTC) This discussion is not closed -- I read the rules and condensed my statement to a single paragraph, of 508 words above (the banner says 1000 words or less). Please don't close this dispute. I've condensed my paragraph to 359 words below. LightProof1995 (talk) 19:11, 14 March 2023 (UTC) My paragraph: Our woad article states the Romans called the northern inhabitants of Britain "Picts" because they painted their bodies and tattooed themselves.[1] The Picts article mentions the etymology of "Picts" means "painted" in Latin, but says nothing about how the Picts painted themselves. My edits said Julius Caesar and Pliny the Elder reported the Celtic Britons painted themselves in various terms that are now translated as "woad".[2][3] Even Britannica's short entry on the Picts states: "Their name may refer to their custom of body painting, or possibly tattooing."[4] There is confusion as to whether the Picts are Britons and if the comments by Caesar and Pliny can apply to them. The Romans assigned the term "Picts" to the Celtic Britons they were unable to conquer in northern Britain,[5] which matches what the woad article says. I also added an additional source by the Roman poet Claudian where he says the Picts were tattooed[6] and that was reverted as well, even though the current consensus is the Picts tattooed themselves. WP:OR only occurs if the editor didn't provide reliable sources that state what the editor states, but I provide multiple sources that say what I say. Here are what my reliable and academic sources state: "Caesar describes the use of body paint by ancient Britons: "All the Britons, indeed, dye themselves with woad.""; "with glastum (woad), the people of Britain are in vile habit of staining the body all over."; "the legion... scanned the strange devices tattooed on the faces of the dying Picts.". I see no reason why Wikipedia's woad article and Britannica's Picts article can state painting as the most likely etymology for the word Picts and cite Caesar, but not Wikipedia's Picts article itself!! Here is an additional source that makes the synthesis for me:[7] "The very name "Picts" (from the Latin Picti) almost certainly means the "painted people." The original name for the inhabitants of Britain as a whole, the Prettani, may originally have meant the "people of the designs/symbols." It is conceivable that the sculpted characters derived from earlier motifs used for body painting." Also the Fraser source cites Caesar on Page 27. LightProof1995 (talk) 02:10, 10 March 2023 (UTC) Thanks Robert. I'd be happy to see this closed as no resolution can be reached when the root is the failure, or refusal to, understand the nature of SYNTH and OR, evident since before the matter was brought here. The filer lays out expansively the nature of their textbook violation of these policies, then baldly states that they have not. No resolution can be reached, without the denial of the policies. Mutt Lunker (talk) 23:43, 14 March 2023 (UTC) Second statement by moderator (Picts)There is a rough consensus that LightProof1995 is engaging in synthesis having the nature of original research. If they want a fifth opinion from volunteers who are familiar with original research and with Wikipedia's policy against original research, they can ask at the original research noticeboard. If they want me to do something to advance their viewpoint, they should tell me what they want me to do. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:18, 15 March 2023 (UTC) Second statements by editors (Picts)Thanks Robert :) By leaving this open, I was hoping all of us would just talk about the content. Instead, Mutt has attacked my intelligence and insists I don't understand WP:SYNTH or WP:OR. Catfish made a valiant effort to talk about the content, although I still disagree with what they said in regards to the content. Mutt had me blocked and accused me of WP:VANDALISM. Mutt then insulted the admin that blocked me on their talk page, twice. I just want to add my clearly non-OR edits to the Picts page without getting blocked. Before we switch to the OR noticeboard, do you have any comments about the content? As an outside opinion of someone who hasn't edited the Picts page? It truly feels like all three editors here just don't want to admit I'm right (although I think Catfish may be starting to agree with me some). At the top it says this is a first stop for disputes; clearly this dispute is more than just the content. Where should I go about that? LightProof1995 (talk) 00:26, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
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Roald Dahl
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
![]() | Closed as probably resolved. No one has objected to changing the heading from Anti-Israeli Comments to Anti-Semitic and Anti-Israeli Comments. The filing editor should change the heading as requested. If they are reverted, they should submit a Request for Comments. Do not edit war. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:24, 17 March 2023 (UTC) |
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview There is a dispute regarding the title of the section that describes anti-Israel and antisemitic comments made by Dahl: Roald_Dahl#Anti-Israeli_comments. The dispute does not appear to be about the content but rather than the title, currently "Anti-Israel comments". It seems to me and ND81 (talk · contribs) that the title should reflect the section content, which includes both anti-Israel and antisemitic comments. Pngeditor (talk · contribs) seems to be requesting that additional proof be provided for why the comments are antisemitic. This seems strange and a little disingenuous considering the comments include:
I'm not attempting to argue that Dahl was antisemitic. It's possible that, as Isiah Berlin suggest, it was just whimsy. I'm also not taking issue with the content. But I feel the title of the section should reflect the content, for instance, something like "Anti-Israel and antisemitic comments" How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? A discussion has taken place at Talk:Roald_Dahl#Anti-semitic_and_anti-Israeli? How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? I'm hoping that neutral third parties may see that the current section title doesn't reflect the content of the section. Summary of dispute by ND81Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by PngeditorPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Roald Dahl discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
Zeroth statement by moderator (Roald Dahl)I will try to conduct moderated discussion concerning this dispute. Please read the usual rules and state whether you agree to them. Comment on content, not contributors. Be civil and concise. With eight good-standing editors listed in this case, back-and-forth discussion will not be allowed. Address your comments to the moderator (me) and the community. It appears that one issue, possibly the main issue, is whether a heading should refer to anti-semitic comments or to anti-Israeli comments. Are there any other issues? In particular, are there any issues concerning the text of the article? Will each editor please state, in one paragraph, what they think is the main issue, or what they think are the main issues? Robert McClenon (talk) 03:22, 10 March 2023 (UTC) Zeroth statements by editors (Roald Dahl)Statement by Yossisynett (filing editor)Thank you User:Robert McClenon for agreeing to moderate this dispute. I have read and agree to the rules. I don't have any issues with the text of the article or the section in question. My issue is with the title of the section. The section clearly deals with both Anti-Israeli and antisemitic comments by Dahl and current title "Anti-Israeli comments" does not reflect that. I won't respond any further on the above back and forth but I would to clarify to you that I was not comparing Dahl to Hitler above, suggesting so seems to be an attempt to straw man my argument, which was that complaining that the Swiss have undue influence over the chocolate industry is a poor comparison with complaining about Jews controlling the media and financial institutions since the latter has been part of antisemitic discourse and been used to justify violence against and genocide of Jews for centuries. Yossisynett (talk) 09:12, 11 March 2023 (UTC) First statement by moderator (Dahl)It appears that none of the editors except for the filing party have responded. I will be closing this dispute in 24 to 48 hours if no one else wants to engage in moderated discussion. No one has disagreed with the filing editor, who wants to relabel the subsection from Anti-Israeli Comments to Anti-Israeli and Anti-Semitic Comments. I would advise the filing editor to make that change. If the change is reverted, the next step is to discuss on the article talk page, and a step after that is to submit a Request for Comments on the title of the subsection. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:45, 14 March 2023 (UTC) First statements by editors (Dahl)
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Roald Dahl
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
![]() | Closed as probably resolved. No one has objected to changing the heading from Anti-Israeli Comments to Anti-Semitic and Anti-Israeli Comments. The filing editor should change the heading as requested. If they are reverted, they should submit a Request for Comments. Do not edit war. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:24, 17 March 2023 (UTC) |
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview There is a dispute regarding the title of the section that describes anti-Israel and antisemitic comments made by Dahl: Roald_Dahl#Anti-Israeli_comments. The dispute does not appear to be about the content but rather than the title, currently "Anti-Israel comments". It seems to me and ND81 (talk · contribs) that the title should reflect the section content, which includes both anti-Israel and antisemitic comments. Pngeditor (talk · contribs) seems to be requesting that additional proof be provided for why the comments are antisemitic. This seems strange and a little disingenuous considering the comments include:
I'm not attempting to argue that Dahl was antisemitic. It's possible that, as Isiah Berlin suggest, it was just whimsy. I'm also not taking issue with the content. But I feel the title of the section should reflect the content, for instance, something like "Anti-Israel and antisemitic comments" How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? A discussion has taken place at Talk:Roald_Dahl#Anti-semitic_and_anti-Israeli? How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? I'm hoping that neutral third parties may see that the current section title doesn't reflect the content of the section. Summary of dispute by ND81Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by PngeditorPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Roald Dahl discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
Zeroth statement by moderator (Roald Dahl)I will try to conduct moderated discussion concerning this dispute. Please read the usual rules and state whether you agree to them. Comment on content, not contributors. Be civil and concise. With eight good-standing editors listed in this case, back-and-forth discussion will not be allowed. Address your comments to the moderator (me) and the community. It appears that one issue, possibly the main issue, is whether a heading should refer to anti-semitic comments or to anti-Israeli comments. Are there any other issues? In particular, are there any issues concerning the text of the article? Will each editor please state, in one paragraph, what they think is the main issue, or what they think are the main issues? Robert McClenon (talk) 03:22, 10 March 2023 (UTC) Zeroth statements by editors (Roald Dahl)Statement by Yossisynett (filing editor)Thank you User:Robert McClenon for agreeing to moderate this dispute. I have read and agree to the rules. I don't have any issues with the text of the article or the section in question. My issue is with the title of the section. The section clearly deals with both Anti-Israeli and antisemitic comments by Dahl and current title "Anti-Israeli comments" does not reflect that. I won't respond any further on the above back and forth but I would to clarify to you that I was not comparing Dahl to Hitler above, suggesting so seems to be an attempt to straw man my argument, which was that complaining that the Swiss have undue influence over the chocolate industry is a poor comparison with complaining about Jews controlling the media and financial institutions since the latter has been part of antisemitic discourse and been used to justify violence against and genocide of Jews for centuries. Yossisynett (talk) 09:12, 11 March 2023 (UTC) First statement by moderator (Dahl)It appears that none of the editors except for the filing party have responded. I will be closing this dispute in 24 to 48 hours if no one else wants to engage in moderated discussion. No one has disagreed with the filing editor, who wants to relabel the subsection from Anti-Israeli Comments to Anti-Israeli and Anti-Semitic Comments. I would advise the filing editor to make that change. If the change is reverted, the next step is to discuss on the article talk page, and a step after that is to submit a Request for Comments on the title of the subsection. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:45, 14 March 2023 (UTC) First statements by editors (Dahl)
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Draft:Marshall Weber
![]() | Closed as wrong forum for this matter. This is a request for advice about a draft article. Advice about draft articles is available at the Teahouse. They will ask what your affiliation with Marshall Weber is, but they probably will give you advice about improving your draft. The consultant who contacted Marshall Weber has no connection with Wikipedia or the Wikimedia Foundation (WMF), and we strongly advise against doing business with anyone who advertises that they can help a client with a Wikipedia article. Ask for advice at the Teahouse. Robert McClenon (talk) 04:46, 19 March 2023 (UTC) |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview I have created quite a few biographical entries. I created this one with references, but was given feedback that there were not enough references. So I added more references. I believe that they arre reliable, they include mainstream newspapers and other arts sites. One of them was the website of a non profit that Wever founded. He has founded other non-profits as well, and has had a career as an artist. I could remove that reference, but not sure that is helpful. I am not sure what else to do. I stuck a big list of links ("more info") at the bottom, which is messy and could be removed but I am at a loss. The process has taken a long time, perhaps I did not see a notification when it was reviewed again. This article is more thorough than others that I have created without the push-back. I have a difficult time figuring out how to communicate with the various editors and reviewers, so may not have done everything possible. I got no response to my comment on the talk page. A consultant of some kind from "Wiki Submissions" contacted Marshall Weber to help him make the web page, but he is not the one writing it, and this is not a commercial endeavor. It seems weird that commercial (?) consultants are trolling the rejections.... How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draft:Marshall_Weber - talk page How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? review the article and if it is somehow not up to standards, delete what needs deleting or explain what else needs to be done. Draft:Marshall Weber discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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Eye movement desensitization and reprocessing
![]() | Closed. This dispute is being discussed at the Fringe Theory Noticeboard. DRN does not consider a dispute that is also pending at another noticeboard. No, an editor doesn't have the privilege of saying that they don't want the case discussed at FTN. Continue discussion at FTN. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:44, 19 March 2023 (UTC) |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview The article currently has a criticism section which includes a section describing EMDR as "pseudoscience". This is based on two 20+ year old sources and one source that is just a professional opinion, not a study. As the rest of the article has many, many sources scientifically verifying the efficacy of EMDR in at least its core purpose of the treatment of PTSD, I don't believe that these three sources are sufficient to apply the contentious label of "pseudoscience". The article also already has IMO better discussion of places where the evidence base for EMDR is shaky outside the criticism section. Therefore, I would like to remove the section calling EMDR "pseudoscience". Bon_courage, as far as I can tell, believes these three sources should be considered completely independently from all the other sources. They also appear to believe that all the other sources are not particularly reliable. But I'll let them elaborate on their position more, as I honestly don't understand it very well. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? Talk:Eye_movement_desensitization_and_reprocessing#"Pseudoscience"_section How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? I feel like Bon_courage is not listening to what I am saying, and I don't really understand what their argument is either. I feel like a mediator could: a) evaluate the relative strength of the arguments and come down in favor of one side or the other or at least b) suggest some sort of compromise other than keeping or deleting the section. Summary of dispute by Bon_couragePlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Eye movement desensitization and reprocessing discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
Update: other editor has said that they won't participate here and has tried to take this to WP:FTN, over my objection. Loki (talk) 18:03, 17 March 2023 (UTC)
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South India
![]() | Closed as moot. The filing editor has been indefinitely blocked. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:28, 21 March 2023 (UTC) |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview "Dakshina Bharata" is a synonym in Hindi and sanskrit and an organization name which imposes Hindi in non-hindi speaking regions. An editor pushed this crap into the article "South India". South India has Tamil, Telugu, Malayalam, Kannada, and Tulu like spoken languages. All these languages have its own synonym for "South India". Most South Indians speak in these languages only. Not Hindi and Sanskrit. Due to this, many users were reverting the "Dakshina Bharata" term. Historians use "Peninsular India and Deccan" to address south Indian on their writings. None of them widely use "Dakshina Bharata". An editor keeps pushing his agenda without valid references and sources. He's not even understand what other users says. The term should be removed from the article's aka name to avoid misleading. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:South_India#Dakshin_Bharat 2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:South_India#Dakshina_Bharath_pov_pushing How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? I believe if uninvolved & unbiased editors check the authenticity and reliability of the Pov injection "Dakshina Bharata", the issue may resolve soon. Summary of dispute by RasnaboyPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
This actually began as a simple issue (if it were an issue at all). One editor asked me why the term should be retained without a source and I added one found in the article itself. We then went on to discuss regarding the term's transliteration and usage and came to a consensus to add it with the addition of a terminal schwa as used by the South Indian languages [11]. Since then the article was vandalized several times, with many IPs removing the term (despite the discussion on the talk page) which we kept reverting. When User:Bobwikia started deleting this term, I reverted twice asking them to discuss first. When another editor reverted it, User:Bobwikia accused both of us of being socks and of belonging to certain community. They also accused me for pushing my POV [12]. I only asked User:Bobwikia to seek consensus with other editors before removing it. Nevertheless, my reason for retaining the term is that it is used primarily by both Kannada and Telugu people (even the people of Kerala use the term "Dhakshina") and that South India's culture is not solely dominated by the Dravidian party ideologies of the Tamil land (which oppose anything that originates from Sanskrit or Hindi as being anti-Tamil). That would be another politically motivated POV push on Non-Tamil people of South India. Rasnaboy (talk) 06:28, 19 March 2023 (UTC) South India discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
Rasnaboy accuses others of vandalism. I see no evidence of vandalism. Maproom (talk) 08:35, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
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Disclose.tv
![]() | Closed as wrong forum. There is a deletion nomination for the subject article, and this request is about the reliability of sources for the article. DRN does not discuss an issue that is also pending in another forum, and in particular does not discuss deletion, which should be discussed in the (pause) deletion discussion. Discuss at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Disclose.tv. That's what deletion discussions are for. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:46, 21 March 2023 (UTC) |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview User SenorCar has created a deletion request for the Disclose.tv article, with their rationale being that a lot of content is sourced to two sources, Logically and Deutsche Welle. The article includes plenty of other sources as well, including Snopes and PolitiFact. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? I discussed with the editor on Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Disclose.tv regarding the article's sourcing. How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? Feedback on whether the article should be kept in its current state would be welcome. Summary of dispute by SenorCarPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Disclose.tv discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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Jessica Nabongo
Have you discussed this on a talk page?
![]() | Closed as premature. The filing unregistered editor has not tried to discuss any article content issue about this article. Some of the listed editors have discussed briefly on the article talk page, and do not appear to have reached an impasse, but there has been no discussion by unregistered editors. Continue discussion on the article talk page. Registering an account is strongly advised. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:05, 21 March 2023 (UTC) |
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Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview The editors, User David10244, User Tacyarg, User Kuru, User Hey man im josh, and User universalsunset came to a consensus that Jessica Nabongo was the second Black woman to travel to every country after Woni Spotts. For months, Jessica Nabongo has used Wikipedia to falsely state another woman's achievement. The above editors caught on the what was happening and corrected it. It was discussed in the Teahouse months ago, now their work is being reversed. User K.Nevelsteen and others keep reverting the page to say Nabongo is first and he added promotional material. Citations show that Woni Spotts is first and that Jessica Nabongo is not even second because she did not visit Syria. She visited Golan Heights, Israel, and was unable to enter Syria. She claims Guinness books said Golan Heights is Syria but Guinness is not a reliable source, according to Wikipedia. The United States and Brittanica say it's Israel. What can be done to stabilize this page? How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Jessica_Nabongo History https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Jessica_Nabongo&action=history&offset=&limit=100 How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? Please look at the facts. Credible citations are provided unless K.Nevelsteen reverts the editor's work again. Citations show that Woni Spotts is first and that Jessica Nabongo is not even second because she did not visit Syria. She visited Golan Heights, Israel, and was unable to enter Syria. She claims Guinness books said Golan Heights is Syria but Guinness is not a reliable source, according to Wikipedia. The United States and Brittanica say it's Israel. Summary of dispute by K.NevelsteenPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by David10244Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by TacyargPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by KuruPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by Hey man im joshPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
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Jessica Nabongo discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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Amritpal Singh (activist)
![]() | Closed. This appears to be a dispute over the reliability of sources, and some of the named editors have declined to take part in discussion here, either because this is a source reliability dispute, or for some other reason. This has also gotten off to a bad start, with inappropriate back-and-forth discussion. The source reliability question should be taken to the Reliable Source Noticeboard. Any issues of article content should be discussed on the article talk page for another 24 hours to cool off. If an article content dispute remains after 24 hours, a new request can be filed here if it really is an article content issue. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:03, 21 March 2023 (UTC) |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview This dispute is regarding the bias about a contentious BLP article that has been involved in recent notable news events. I noticed the article overwhelmingly used Indian media outlets as sources, which gave the article a certain biased viewpoint and therefore promoted an unbalanced summary of the individual in-question. Therefore, I attempted to edit the article [see here https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Amritpal_Singh_(activist)&oldid=1145853786 for the largest of my edits out of a series of them] to give the other side of the story (from Sikh sources, specifically Baaz News), yet I found my inclusion first reverted (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Amritpal_Singh_(activist)&oldid=1145855730) and after I pushed back and questioned the reversion, I reinstated the edit and it was then tagged as unreliable. We have been discussing whether or not the source is reliable or unreliable and I find that the users have not made any real convincing arguments as to why the source should not be permitted. They have used red herrings, attempted character assassinations, and made up random requirements (like saying a notable Sikh organization is not democratically elected as their views cannot represent the entire Sikh community and therefore should not be quoted). This seems like an attempt to only allow sources promoting a certain viewpoint to be used in the article to steer readers to a certain understanding of the individual. This is a clear WP:NPOV issue and the article desperately needs outside review from 3rd party and uninvolved users, who are well-versed in WP rules and guidelines, to analyze it from a more objective viewpoint as currently the article is mostly being edited by people who may have a certain ideological bend or affiliation (currently the article is mostly being edited by Indian users, we need outside views). Note: A RfC was first attempted by me but it was removed so this is not currently being discussed at any other resolution method. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? We need 3rd party opinions from uninvolved users who are well-versed in judging an article for bias, who can make a judgement on the reliability of sources, and who can help improve the article's current balance and WP:NPOV issues. We have already discussed the issue at hand but have been unable to come to an agreement on our own and require outside eyes. Summary of dispute by Kautilya3Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
This is not a content dispute. It is a debate as to whether the so-called "Baaz News", a substack newsletter, is a reliable source. It should go to WP:RSN. I decline to paricipate here. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 18:44, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by ExtorcPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
This discussion doesn't belong here. As correctly pointed out by Kautilya3, it belongs to WP:RSN because the debate is exclusive to sources. Summary of the dispute by MixmonPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
I don't think there is a need to comment on Baaz news which is an entirely unreliable source as it must be clear from the talk page discussion. Not only reliable Indian Media like The Indian Express, The Hindu but also non-Indian media like Al Jazeera, BBC, (all considered reliable by Wikipedia) calls Ampritpal Singh radical/separatist/pro-khalistani but this fake news portal with no credibility ( it calls its article - "Original Reporting" ) refers to this person as Bhai (Brother) and it also failed to mention violent acts committed by that person. This is not a dispute but an attempt to use fringe sources to whitewash criminal records. Intelligence reports are also covered by many reliable media sources (not only Hindustan Times) WP:RSPSS like - [13][14] and these are not stated as a fact in wiki article but as reported statements. Comparing these reliable sources (with history of publication) with a website like Baaz news which is publishing a biased version of fully pro-khalistan articles (and no credibility) is entirely unfair. The user who raised this dispute is also attacking other editors by calling them pro-govt/biased/ideologically affiliated (just like in summary) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mixmon (talk • contribs) 19:27, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
Summary of dispute by Dilpreet Singh Issue is not just limited to the sources provided however it is more than that, as of now state media is running a propaganda against sikhs and to suppress the voice they have blocked the internet for last many days now. state is using media(social/TV/paper) to build a narrative to misinform public which included most of the sources which pro-hindutva lobby is citing in this article. Sikhs have very limited resources and if any they are blocked or banned in Punjab.
It's important to understand it is a conflict between sikhs and pro-hindutva lobby. For.eg. with in last 72 hrs or more, Amritpal Singh is declared an ISI agent and someone who is involved in hurting hindu and involved in drugs etc , this narrative build by state and people are using the state media to confirm that, this is total nonsense. there's no such information available until last week. Rather, he was welcomed by hindus in phagwara (now arrested), heeling drug addicted & running many camps around punjab. We need a balanced article which reflect actual ground reality rather than state's fake narrative. we shouldn't allow any information which is propagated by state until cross checked with sikhs sources. Summary of dispute by CrusaderForTruth2023The article is not disputed inherently because it uses verified credible sources of both national and international media. The versions used are of established media houses with extensive experience of journalism, some extending over 100 years and having a vast network of journalists in India as well as in Punjab State of India. These include Hindustan Times (founded in 1924), India Today (founded 1975), Indian Express (founded 1932), Al Jazeera, BBC etc. The article was stable and doing good with credible content and proper citations of credible sources mentioned above till some people claiming to be supporters of the person in the article raised a dispute. (Now that is not good/acceptable because a supporter of a the person who is the subject of the article is de-facto biased). They want to present their version in the article without any source or reference (which is again unacceptable because biased personal opinions of 'supporters' of the subject of an article cannot be used in the article without reference). To justify their version, the people raising the dispute are quoting a singular online 'blog' by the name of Baaz News. As we research, this Blog has No History, No Team Members Name, No Founder and NO GROUND REPORTER/BUREAU and it's very existence in Punjab is questionable. The about page of the blog just writes a collection of 'writers, actors, journalists' where the identity and credibility of the same is unknown. The blog is not even operated from India where the subject of the article or the incidents are based. The blog is not accredited to any national or international authority/body/agency or media/journalist association. Nor is any article written by any accredited journalist. Hence we can safely say that it is an 'UNAUTHENTICATED NON CREDIBLE SOURCE'. A mere online blog cannot be used to do dispute the references of several accredited, licensed, experienced and reputed International and National Media and Journalism Houses and Newspapers of repute. Hence the dispute does not arise, it's a case where a dispute is trying to be generated to fulfil personal biases or 'support' the subject of the article. (Bear in mind that the subject of the article is a radical separatist and a fugitive currently absconding with unknown whereabouts) Summary of dispute by SolblazePlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by CalicoMoIt is clear that there are a number of active editors on this article that are strongly motivated by their personal biases, and as a result they're reverting sourced information on an arbitrary basis. As an example, they will delete information sourced from Baaz News, but will keep information sourced from Hindustan Times, when there is no discernable difference in quality or journalistic rigor between the two. They fault Baaz for citing anonymous sources, but then turn around and say Hindustan Times is reputable because they cite intelligence officials, even though these "intelligence officials" that Hindustan Times cites are **also** anonymous. It's obvious based on a quick glance at the user and talk pages of these editors, that they both have an obvious political bias and their purpose in editing this article is first and foremost to push their politicial bias. That is the only reason they're scrutinizing the sources for information that does not align with their narrative, while citing sources of similar quality themselves. I believe the only way to move forward on this topic is to compel these bad-faith editors to stop reverting sourced edits. Both Baaz News and Hindustan Times present opposing narratives that have merit on their own, and it's very easy to present both narratives in an impartial way. The only problem is that the most active editors on that articles are not interested in presenting impartial information. CalicoMo (talk) 16:41, 21 March 2023 (UTC)
Amritpal Singh (activist) discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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Carlton (disambiguation)
![]() | Closed as abandoned. Four days after being advised to discuss on the disambiguation page talk page or to ask for a Third Opinion, there has been no further discussion because the filing editor has not edited in the last four days. If disagreement resumes, discuss on the disambiguation page talk page. If that discussion is lengthy and inconclusive, request a Third Opinion, or file a new request here. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:22, 21 March 2023 (UTC) |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview I would not be requesting dispute resolution if it were not for the fact that either of those pages is quite slow and quick response is needed in uncertain issues like this, in which there is no precise policy when it comes up to this, as well as the fact that user is seemingly changing every page he or she comes across to the way they see fit without receiving a third party response. I suggested the other editor view WP:MOSDAB and WP:LONGDAB for reference, but they refused to listen and "were that confident" that they were correct in their editing without yet receiving an answer as to how the People section should be named, which leads me to the point of contention. User:Clarityfiend believes that the People section of DAB pages should be changed to People and fictional characters. I tried to show precedent that it was not the way it had been done, but the user "corrected" them to include "fictional characters". It should be worth noting that this appears to be the only user to be making such changes to the subtitle People in DAB pages where names are involved. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? This discussion has not occurred on the talk page of the DAB article itself, but begain in User talk:Clarityfiend#Carlton - People. It was taken to a [[Help talk:Section#Section title dispute ]], but I suppose the other user must have believed it was better to delete it and moved the discussion to Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style#Section title dispute. How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? A third party person or people making comment on this or possibly citing existing policy neither Clarityfiend or I could find when making our arguments. Summary of dispute by ClarityfiendPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Does accuracy not count for anything anymore? None of the policies or guidelines BurgeoningContracting keeps referring to support their position that it doesn't. This is the way it's been done is not a valid reason to keep perpetuating an error. Carlton (disambiguation) discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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Bill D'Arcy
![]() | Closed as abandoned. Four days after being instructed to notify the other editor, the filing editor has not notified the other editor. Also, the other editor has not edited in about two months. If there is a resumed interest in this article, the Biographies of Living Persons Noticeboard would be the best forum. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:11, 22 March 2023 (UTC) |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview The attempts to reconcile the dispute have ended in failure. Bill D'Arcy was jailed for sexual offences against children and served seven years jail. In the civil case when the victims went to sue for money the judge decided that his case could not be proved. This stayed on the site for several years but the "Drovers Wife" has disallowed it. He also disallowed a publicised effort by a practising psychologist to hold a forum on the D'Arcy, the notion of "recovered memory" etc. I personally discovered that two years before he was charged with any crime, he was publicly reported in the Queensland Courier Mail as having had sex with a 15 year old, had a baby with her, and had the baby adopted out. This was categorically denied by D'Arcy and the minor involved (in a remote report)but by this time his reputation had been ruined. I extensively studied these newspaper reports and concluded (as anyone would) that D'Arcy was ill, his safe Labor seat was coveted within the Labor Party, that the Liberal opposition went along with the false reports, that over enthusiastic campaigners against child sexual abuse jumped on the bandwagon. The lawyer who vehemently defended D'Arcy, though given publicity for his views, had a negative story ran against him as a lawyer. The newspaper published D'Arcy's name against all convention and on arguably specious grounds etc. This I documented most painstakingly from the Newspaper reports. Drover's Wife wiped out the lot despite my efforts to respect his views and negotiate. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? Bill D'Arcy How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? Assist me to find a way I can report the facts on Bill D'Arcy - especially a report on the period Aug- Sept 1998 when he was the victim of unsubstantiated allegations which ruined his reputation two years before he was accused and tried on a different charge. I have copies of the reports which I can scan and forward to anyone who is able to help Summary of dispute by The Drover's WifePlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Bill D'Arcy discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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Schloss Fuschl
![]() | Closed. There are a few problems again with this filing. First, the filing editor has not notified the other editor on their user talk page. If that were the only problem, I would just leave a note to that effect and wait for them to provide notice. Second, the filing editor may want a Third Opinion rather than moderated discussion. If that were the only problem, I would ask what the filing editor is requesting. Third, there has been no recent discussion on the article talk page. The filing editor posted a note to the article talk page two months ago, and then apparently went away, and came back two months later. That isn't discussion. Tell the other editor, User:Justlettersandnumbers, that you want to discuss with them on the article talk page, and try to engage in dialogue with them. Sometimes discussion resolves an issue. Try it. If discussion is lengthy and inconclusive, a new request can be made here, in a few days. There is no need to wait a few months, which causes any previous discussion to become stale. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:11, 23 March 2023 (UTC) |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview Twice, on 9/12/22 and 12/27/22, I attempted to expand the article on the Schloss Fuschl. The first time, user Justlettersandnumbers reverted my additions for being "ill-sourced." The second time, I found more sources, but Justlettersandnumbers again reverted my changes, claiming my edits were "Promotion," that a portion failed the "Crystal Ball" rules, and criticizing my additional sources. I attempted to open a dispute resolution previously, on January 18, but it was closed because I failed to mention the request on the subject talk page and the user's talk page. I then did so, and have given two months now for a reply. I believe the sources I found are the best available. The primary source is a booklet written by a legitimate local historian. It was published by the hotel, but only contains historical data, no opinion about or endorsement of the business. I also cited multiple news articles. Wikipedia says Promotion consists of "advocacy, opinion, scandal mongering, self-promotion, or advertising." I can't find evidence of that in what I wrote. The Crystal Ball rule feels like it is being applied incorrectly. I provided sources for statements about the near future. The Crystal Ball page here says it's okay to include things about the future if they are "almost certain to take place." Also, almost everything in my two revisions is also in the German-language article, which has virtually no sources listed. I asked two other members here to add their thoughts. You'll see their comments on the Talk page. One is a friend, the other is a stranger I found on a page I frequently edit, the St. Regis New York hotel. I am requesting a dispute resolution because the other user has not replied recently, and the page is fairly obscure, so it hasn't attracted any other Talk page comments. I hope a fair resolution can be found. Perhaps I just need to find more sources for my text, but it's all historical information, it seems a shame to delete it entirely. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? Talk:Schloss Fuschl, User talk:Justlettersandnumbers How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? I would like an impartial moderator or moderators to look at my revisions of 9/12/22 and 12/27/22, then review the comments on the Talk pages, and decide what the best course of action is. Thanks! Summary of dispute by JustlettersandnumbersPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Schloss Fuschl discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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Battle of Busan (1592), Battle of Myeongnyang
![]() | Closed. The filing editor has not notified the other editor of this filing, 48 hours after being reminded that they should provide notice. Stop edit-warring and resume discussion on the two article talk pages. If discussion is inconclusive after another 24 hours, another request can be filed here, with notice to the other editor on their user talk page. In the meantime, discuss rather than edit-warring. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:19, 23 March 2023 (UTC) |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute
Users involved Dispute overview In the talk page of two battles, which are Battle of Busan (1592), Battle of Myeongnyang, I frequently requested たたたたたたたたったポンタ to suggest the evidence that prove the following two points to resolve, which are the proof of the Japanese navy conquering the west coast of Jeolla-do during the second Japanese invasion of Korea (1597~1598), and the proof of the Japanese advancing and conquering Hanseong as well as the northern part of Korea after the battle of Busan. However, たたたたたたたたったポンタ is stiil refusing to provide such evidence, and he is repeating his argument that the two battles are the victory of the Japanese as well as the war itself. Contrary to his argument, I am against of admitting his argument, and the stalemate of the debate is still not being resolved. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Battle_of_Busan_(1592) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Battle_of_Busan_(1592) How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? I think you can help two users,including me by facilitating both users to provide reliable and clear sources, rather than original researches and mere arguments, to make a breakthrough and, if necessary, by providing third opinion or mediation. Summary of dispute by たたたたたたたたったポンタPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Battle of Busan (1592), Battle of Myeongnyang discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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East Palestine train derailment
![]() | Closed as premature. There has been no discussion between the filing editor and the other editor on the article talk page. The filing editor posted to the talk page of the other editor, who said to discuss at the article talk page, at which point it seems the filing editor erased that exchange, and made one post to the article talk page, but the two editors did not discuss. Resume discussion on the article talk page. That is why articles have talk pages. If discussion is lengthy and inconclusive, a new request can be filed here. Robert McClenon (talk) 03:01, 24 March 2023 (UTC) |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview I removed a section of the East Palestine Train derailment Wiki page due to a lack of relevance. User Muboshgu reverted my good faith edits without justification. The user stated that I should use the talk page. I posted in the talk page and undid Muboshgu's edit. Again Muboshgu undid my edit and said to use the talk page. I responded by undoing their edit and said "Then reply on the talk page". Muboshgu responded with I don't have to or want to. Revert again and I'll block you for edit warring. I would like dispute resolution to Muboshgu and my editing. I think that a user should back up their undoing of an edit. Additionally, how do you resolve a dispute with someone that refuses to discuss the issue and issues threats. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=2023_Ohio_train_derailment&action=history How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? If Muboshgu wants to undo my edits is fine. But they should be willing to talk and back up their rational. Summary of dispute by MuboshguPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
East Palestine train derailment discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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Talk:Xenia Goodwin
![]() | Closed. The other editor than the filer has, in effect, declined to participate in DRN, which is voluntary. The editors should resume discussion on the article talk page, Talk:Xenia Goodwin. Remember that civility is the fourth pillar of Wikipedia, and discuss content, not contributors, and avoid casting aspersions. Any remaining content issues can be decided by Request for Comments. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:11, 30 March 2023 (UTC) |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview I added a two sentence trivia regarding the inspiration for Xenia Goodwin to pursue dance and mentioned how an idol of hers would later co-star with her on a television show which is her only notable feature. IJBall reverted my edit as I used a YouTube video as a source with UNDUE as a source. However, even after providing approved website sources, he continued to remain steadfast in keeping my edit to how he had written it despite not citing any guidelines, rules, etc that would of justified his edit. For instance, I asked whether he could expand on what part of DUE I was supposedly continuously in violation of but he did not answer my question directly. He instead argued on what is largely personal opinion rather than ones rooted in the rules of Wikipedia. I am absolutely willing to change my edit however I disagree that it needs to be changed altogether; for this, I do believe he is in violation of OWN (Ownership of content). How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Xenia_Goodwin https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Xenia_Goodwin&action=history How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? I believe it could be resolved simply through exploring whether his edit is reasonable in contrast to mine, with context of his reasoning behind why his edit is preferable. I am absolutely willing to change my edit however I disagree that it needs to be changed altogether - or in other words, that his edit is 'superior' or more reasonable over mine. Summary of dispute by IJBallPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
One, this should have gone to WP:3O rather than here (where it's a huge waste of time). Second, two sentences on who "inspired" a WP:BLP in an article this short is WP:UNDUE. The article was, I believe, 6 sentences (i.e. a WP:STUB) before the additions. The primary purpose of WP:BLPs on Wikipedia is to demonstrate why/how they are notable (i.e. WP:NOTFANSITE). Subjects that are demonstrated to be unquestionably "notable" often are then filled out with additional "personal detail" information like "who inspired" them. Information like this at a short WP:BLP stub is very likely, UNDUE – two additional sentences is 25% of the article's content! – but I compromised, allowing a one-sentence addition (properly sourced) on the subject's "inspiration". Any more focus on this topic than that at this article is an UNDUE focus away from why/how they are notable. I have no idea why the original editor is insisting on pursuing this, as the basic information they wanted has now been added to the article in an acceptable manner. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 16:25, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
Talk:Xenia Goodwin discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
Zeroth statement by moderator (Xenia Goodwin)The editors are asked to read the usual rules and state whether they would like moderated discussion under these rules. If so, please state what part of the article you want changed, or what part of the article you want left the same when another editor wants it changed. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:10, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
Zeroth statements by editors (Xenia Goodwin)
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Template:Australian elections
![]() | Closed. The filing editor has stated, on the template talk page, that they are withdrawing this DRN request in favor of using an RFC, which is also in progress on the template talk page. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:30, 1 April 2023 (UTC) |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview I am suggesting that a navbar about the election history of Australia separate referendums and plebiscites into two sections as such. The other user (Aréat) is suggesting that the referendum and plebiscites be merged with one another (like the current version). Other people have given their input but the dispute (the discussion between Aréat and I) keeps going around in circles and is going nowhere. Our arguments for and against are in the discussion location. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? Template_talk:Australian_elections#Inclusion_of_the_2017_Australian_Marriage_Law_Postal_Survey How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? Provide a fresh set of eyes, provide your input on the best solution, suggest what is best. Summary of dispute by AréatPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Template:Australian elections discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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2024 Libertarian Party presidential primaries
![]() | Closed. One of the other editors has declined to participate, and another has not responded. Discuss any issues on the article talk page. Robert McClenon (talk) 06:25, 3 April 2023 (UTC) |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved
Dispute overview The issue is in regards to a List of Candidates who are set to go into the 2024 Libertarian Presidential Primaries. One User is claiming that in order for an individual (even if they are notable on wikipedia) to qualify as being apart of the list, they must have had major media coverage, which in context does not ever happen. While third party sites, such as third party watch, and the candidates themselves saying that they are running, as well as FEC filings, Coverage in debates, participation in party conventions running on the ticket, does not matter. Secondly, they consider the list, and the sources the candidates used on the 2020 libertarian presidential list to be insufficient and "bad editing" They give undue weight to Joe Exotic, only allowing him to be present on the article as a result. According to the policies on Notability, individuals on Lists do not need to be notable. Despite this, The user in question is insisting that they must be. Mike Ter Maat, Jacob Hornberger, Lars Mapstead are all major players as of this time. And considering the limited media appearances of the Libertarian Party, The Limited sources at hand ought to be considered, due to it being a list of candidates, and not an article or biography for each one. In context to the LP, Joe Exotic is an extremely minor player, who was actually expelled from the party, so giving him undue weight is absolutely inaccurate in all respects. So, given the limited media surrounding it, the fact that the party is convention-nomination, the fact that each candidate is backed by multiple verifiable sources, including the FEC, The fact that there is limited media coverage, the Misinformation presented by the article, and the fact that Wikipedia's Policies are explicit about lists, some of the other candidates in the list need to be added. At the Very lest it needs to be explicitly clarified that the list is very much inaccurate and misleading. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? I believe being able to add other candidates to the list, and to be able to loosen the restrictions an editor has been trying to enforce upon everyone, would help make the article more accurate and avoid misinformation currently presented by the article. Summary of dispute by TheGuardianOfTheWikiPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Summary of dispute by Trimetaveler1
Summary of dispute by 25stargeneralPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
2024 Libertarian Party presidential primaries discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
Zeroth statement by moderator (Libertarian Party)The editors are asked to read the usual rules and state whether they would like moderated discussion under these rules. If the issue is whether a source is reliable, the editors should ask for an opinion at the reliable source noticeboard. If the issue is one of article content, please state briefly what part of the article you want changed (or what part you want left the same if another editor wants to change it). Robert McClenon (talk) 20:02, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
Zeroth statements by editors (Libertarian Party)
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Orstkhoy
![]() | Closed. The filing editor says that discussion has been delayed for maybe a week. If so, this thread is closed. Discuss at the article talk page. Robert McClenon (talk) 06:26, 3 April 2023 (UTC) |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview We have had an issue with agreeing upon the earliest mention of a Vainakh tribe called "Orstkhoy". My opinion is that the earliest date is 1771 while another editor thinks it is 1770. I explain in the talk page with sources (last section of the talk page) that the oldest source is 1771 since it mentions the tribe known as Orstkhoy (Karabulak) first. The talk page is full of discussions where we came to a consensus on certain areas but couldn't come to a consensus in other areas. I believe that this "earliest date" issue is the main one and every other problem can be solved if we get a third opinion who can review the 2 sources and tell us which has the earliest mention of this certain tribe. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
In short we just need an unbiased admin to look through 2 sources (which i provided with links and pages in the last section of the talk page). It is very simple to solve but so far i haven't gotten an admin to look at both sources (even though an admin did get involved couple days ago but he went inactive and hasn't looked through the second source i posted later). Summary of dispute by WikiEditor1234567123.Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
We had an dispute with Goddard2000 regarding the earliest mention of ethnical belonging of Orstkhoy, not the earliest mention of Orstkhoy, Goddard2000 you should have clarified this. My opinion is that the earliest source which indicates Orstkhoy as Ingush is from 1770 while Goddard2000 thinks that the earliest source which indicates Orstkhoy as Chechen is from 1771. Check the talk page for more info. WikiEditor1234567123 (talk) 19:07, 24 March 2023 (UTC)
Orstkhoy discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
Zeroth statement by moderator (Orstkhoy)The editors are asked to read the usual rules and state whether they would like moderated discussion under these rules. Has the question been resolved? (It isn't clear from reading whether it has or has not been resolved.) Is there an article content issue? If so, what part of the article do you want changed (or left the same if another editor wants to change it)? Robert McClenon (talk) 20:10, 29 March 2023 (UTC)
Zeroth statements by editors (Orstkhoy)
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Killing of Tyre Nichols
![]() | Closed as mostly a conduct dispute. There probably is an article content dispute, but it is buried in layers of conduct complaints by both editors. The opening statement by the filing editor is not about article content, and the reply is not about article content. The discussion has taken less than 24 hours, but is out of control. Also, DRN is not a forum for discussing copyright issues. The two editors should resume discussion on the article talk page, Talk:Killing of Tyre Nichols, and should focus on article content, and should leave the copyright violation concern to administrators and copyright clerks. If discussion on the article talk page is inconclusive, any survivors of the conduct dispute may file a new DRN request. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:46, 21 March 2023 (UTC) |
Closed discussion |
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Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Users involved Dispute overview Newbie SPA Editor insists that the content other editors make must only include exact words or wording used in the source. This good faith newbie SPA editor is rabid and militant about maintaining precise control of the article content. There are conduct issues, but that's another story, I assume good faith and give the benefit of the doubt for their content control efforts and their tenacious conduct. Possibly they are not self-aware of how their content and conduct are perceived. I am not lecturing. I feel this editor is coachable and open to that but I do not know the process to pull that off nor do I have the bandwidth to be a sole coach for content & conduct. Please refer me to WP resources to help this editor tone down their conduct. I know you will only be addressing content. Please help this newbie SPA editor as I don't wish to malign or harm them and I suspect that they are an editor with great possibilities. Thank you. They engage in copyvios, linkrot, poor grammar, misspellings, run-ons, lead too long, not using summary style, reverting content, and not understanding content essays, guidelines, policies, norms, or intent. My coming here is to help them, not harm or blame them. They add unnecessary content to talk pages by copying template content back to the talk page of the editor who templated them. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? Let the newbie SPA editor know what they are doing is harming the encyclopedia and coach them on how to be an awesome editor, and to stop wikilawyering to support their content edits; stop reverting the content of good edits. Provide a support team to filter their content edits maybe in a personalized "pending changes" protocol until they internalize their own direct content edits. Teach them the need and how to build out references that contain full metadata and use the citation style in place.
Summary of dispute by AgntOtrthPlease keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Killing of Tyre Nichols discussionPlease keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
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- ^ Carr, Gillian (2005-08-01). "Woad, Tattooing and Identity in Later Iron Age and Early Roman Britain". Oxford Journal of Archaeology. 24 (3): 277. doi:10.1111/j.1468-0092.2005.00236.x. ISSN 1468-0092.
- ^ Van Der Veen, M.; Hall, A. R.; May, J. (1993-11-01). "Woad and the Britons Painted Blue". Oxford Journal of Archaeology. 12 (3): 367–371. doi:10.1111/j.1468-0092.1993.tb00340.x. ISSN 1468-0092.
- ^ Pliny the Elder, The Natural History. Volume 4. BOOK XXII. Chapter 2. 78-79 A.D. "https://www.gutenberg.org/files/61113/61113-h/61113-h.htm""https://exploringcelticciv.web.unc.edu/pliny-the-elder-the-natural-history"
- ^ https://www.britannica.com/topic/Pict
- ^ Ravilious, Kate. Land of the Picts. 2021
- ^ Claudian, The Gothic War. 402-403 A.D. "http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Claudian/De_Bello_Gothico*.html" "...the legion that kept the fierce Scots in check, whose men had scanned the strange devices tattooed on the faces of the dying Picts." Note Getae in this text refers to the Visigoths.
- ^ Keys, David. Rethinking the Picts. 2004