Template talk:Punctuation marks/Archive 1

℮
℮
Estimated sign
In Unicode	U+212E ℮ ESTIMATED SYMBOL

This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Math characters

Do simple math characters count as punctuation? I guess not in general, or every math character would. But in things like "−6 degrees", "±12 dB", do the minus and plus-or-minus count as punctuation? Should it just remain a type of dash? Do things like degree marks count ("32°")? - Omegatron 19:34, Apr 5, 2004 (UTC)

I consider them more of an elaborate notation than punctuation. - Woo d row 19:37, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

How about Interpunct? Bullet? I think minus should still be shown, since it is a type of dash and they get confusing, even if other similar math or notation things should not. - Omegatron 21:29, Apr 5, 2004 (UTC)

Non-standard marks

I think we should remove punctuation marks that are nonstandard to English, such as the interrobang. And maybe limit the examples of quotation marks to the English ones, at least to simplify the template.--Sonjaaa 22:11, Nov 26, 2004 (UTC)

I concur. – Quadell ^{(talk) (help)} 00:18, Dec 7, 2004 (UTC)

I also concur. The odd characters are now listed below in "Uncommon typography" —Down10 ^TACO 07:43, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

now Validating

Looks like I wasn't wrong about unnecessary quote around number in HTML. But we're using XHTML here, duh. Well anyway, it now validates as valid XHTML 1.0 [1]

BTW, does anyone know how-to remove the spaces at the top of each page? or is that something that the developer will have to fix?

mediawiki reprocesses everything anyway so quotes or no quotes round the numbers in the wiki markup makes no difference to the output xhtml. Plugwash 17:43, 29 May 2005 (UTC)

Strange interwiki

Hi,

There's a strange interwiki in the template. I have no idea why it's there, but now I've put it in <noinclude></noinclude> to give it just a little meaning.

--Morten Barklund 17:13, 9 November 2005 (UTC)

Bolding

I don't think the punctuation marks should be bolded, because it screws up their display by turning the smaller font into just a blurry, blocky mess for some characters, especially the paragraph mark and @ sign. Night Gyr 01:24, 10 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree; it does make it muddy. MeekMark 14:56, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that I made everything bigger to try to reduce this problem. —Gordon P. Hemsley→✉ 04:43, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

So, five years later, I WP:boldly (in a different sense) removed the bolding. Bolding the punctuation marks does not make them stand out much more, and they shouldn’t really have to stand out anyway. Plus it simplifies things. Vadmium (talk) 07:11, 11 August 2011 (UTC).

Better indeed. Now for the next five years, are the brackets ( ) a typographic way of doing? If not, we could do without (except for maybe for spaces and multiple symbols). See you in 2016. -DePiep (talk) 09:07, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I think in most case the brackets are probably not necessary. Vadmium (talk) 10:42, 11 August 2011 (UTC).

That is fast! But, if it is an established typographer's habit, they should stay. btw, I tried to smaller the infobox, using CSS <div> and but did not succeed (Windows IE problems). Let me know if you want more on that. -DePiep (talk) 12:25, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

title and style on Interword separation

How about a span for the spaces, to allow title= with a description? Like this:

( ) ( ) ( )

which looks like this (hover over the spaces for a tooltip):

( ) ( ) ( )

And maybe even a border around them (one possible style shown):

(   ) ( &ensp; ) ( &emsp; )

Renders as:

( ) ( ) ( ) MeekMark 22:10, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Yup, I refuse to consider the second solution :) As to the first one, I don't have a strong opinion, but... it is inconsistent with all the rest. Why do you think we need a tooltip on the spaces and not on the other characters? In particular why not on dashes? (Oh, and BTW the   is not meant to represent a   but a normal space; of course I couldn't have used a normal space in the HTML code) —Gennaro Prota ^•Talk 21:11, 28 May 2006 (UTC)
No problem; the decoration does kinda get in the way. The main reason for the tool tip was for those that wondered, "Hey, I wonder what the differences are in those spaces?" and also for screen reader programs. But your point why not the rest is valid too; so unless someone else besides me sees some value, I'll leave well enough alone. MeekMark 22:10, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Well, don't give up so early :) I hadn't considered screen readers, and you raise a good point. I'm not an expert in this field, so I ask you: is there any way other than tooltips to make screen readers "decipher" the spaces with their correct name? I'm not against the tooltip if it increases the infobox accessibility. I just would like an alternative to avoid inconsistencies with the other rows. Otherwise I lean towards the tooltip, as the accessibility benefit greatly outweighs the inconsistency issue, IMHO. —Gennaro Prota ^•Talk 11:11, 29 May 2006 (UTC)

Percent symbol

Does anyone else think that the % symbol should be added under general typography? Max naylor 20:58, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

Hmm... good question. Actually, there are also the "Per mille sign" (‰) and the "Per ten thousand sign" (‱), which are in the Unicode general punctuation range (see http://www.unicode.org/charts/PDF/U2000.pdf). If there are no significant objections in a few days I'll add them. —Gennaro Prota ^•Talk 21:27, 28 May 2006 (UTC)

the umlaut

I added the diaresis, but now I'm not sure I ought to have; should it only be in Template:diacritical marks instead? As perhaps should any other "combining mark" (as designated by Unicode? --moof 00:51, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I suspect both dieresis and guillemets were discussed before and intentionally excluded, but I was not here when discussion took place. Let's see what others have to say. —Gennaro Prota ^•Talk 01:15, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Just to clarify why I think so: the whole box seems deliberately English-oriented, and guillemets are rarely used in English (the article about quotation marks seems also to strongly state they are "foreign language" symbols); as to the dieresis I guess, as you suppose too, it belongs to {{diacritical marks}}. —Gennaro Prota ^•Talk 01:23, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Support deletion of umlaut/diaeresis. It's a diacritical mark, and it is already in the Template:diacritical marks where it belongs. (For now, I just changed spelling diaresis -> diaeresis.) – Adhemar 08:41, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Agreed on deletion. It's a diacritical mark, and not in the same topic of punctuation or typography. —Down10 ^TACO 07:43, 26 September 2006 (UTC)

Octothorp

octothorp ( #)

My contributionLudvikus 14:43, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Reference:

    octothorp \ak-te-thorp, -to-\ noun [octo- + thorp, of unknown origin; fr. the eight
    points on its circumference] (1971): the symbol #

    (C) 1996 Zane Publishing, Inc. and Merriam-Webster, Incorporated

I've reverted that change. Octothorp is a too-obscure alternative name, not widely accepted. Dicklyon 16:16, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

Interpunct

Interpunct was shown under punctuation but, as my son Ted just pointed out, the page for interpunct clearly states this is used for interword separation and so it should sit with Spaces in the existing "interword separation" section. Ted is just 10 years old.

Reference mark

The link to Reference mark (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reference_mark) is diverting to Japanese typographic symbols. Is there any logic to this?

It seems to me like a Japanese Asterisk. So yes. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.79.105.66 (talk) 03:58, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Too big

The template list is too long, especially on some stub typography articles. Could we possibly add a [show] [hide] function? --Spe bi 08:53, 19 April 2007 (UTC)

Symbol in template?

Many symbol pages have the symbol in question displayed in different ways... what about having them all included in the template.. example User talk:Yzmo/punctest That would make it look better Yzmo ^talk 15:27, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

the same sign

apostrophe ( ->’<- ' )
quotation marks ( ‘ ->’<-, “ ” )

are the same, what's what. Chandler talk 01:57, 8 September 2007 (UTC)

Trimming the Fat

This list is indeed getting too long. To help, I removed some poor examples: "Dele" & "Emoticons".

The dele symbol isn't even used in typography, it's a manual mark for proofreading, and is almost always handwritten. So it shouldn't be in this list, but instead in Template:Proofreading marks.

Emoticons technically uses type as an expression, but since they doesn't function as punctuation (in any formal sense) nor as a singular type symbols, they doesn't belong here. The example ("☻") is a really tiny "smiley face" (though it looked just like a big black dot on my screen, at that size), but it's not a proper instance of a type symbol. Please let this list serve as an index to typography in regular usage, lest you feel that every dingbat that has been added to Unicode should be added to this template. [insert frowny face here] —Down10 ^TACO 06:01, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Typeface for blown-up symbols

.

With the current template, the various symbols are shown in what I consider to be not the best archetypical shapes; for example, the full stop comes out as a square. I propose to have the blown-up symbols rendered in the Times font family, so that it is more like a circle. Objections? --Lambiam 10:11, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

I have made the change. --Lambiam 13:11, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

Squid Apostrophe?

The individually-linked words don't seem to go anywhere relevant, and I couldn't find any valid meaning for the two combined. Raines (talk) 08:25, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

"Splutter marks"

These are a pair of marks used in DC comics and elsewhere to indicate gasps, coughs, etc. They resemble skinny right and left arrows that have been separated into their component lines. I have been unable to find any reference to them anywhere, so "splutter marks" is my own name for them. Does anyone know what they are called? I reckon they must count as punctuation marks in use, but, as I mention, I can find not reference to them at all.

November1925 (talk) 12:39, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Possibly here?

Western Signs and Ideograms

There are several books out these days on signs and symbols used in Comic Books. The above happens to be online.

KA-BOOM! A Dictionary of Comic Book Words, Symbols & Onomatopoeia

The above title is sold through Amazon.com and elsewhere.

The splutters usually represent sweat (hot or cold) or strong emotion. A similar symbol replaces the teardrop shapes with straight lines (either easier to draw or focusing on the emotional affect rather than physical manifestations -- they're remarkably flexible) which can surround either characters or words.

Lee-Anne (talk) 00:09, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Width

This box seems to have become unreasonably wide. Compare the old version here with the current version here. Any chance someone who understands the formatting intricacies could put it back to a more reasonable and space-efficient width? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.142.110.189 (talk) 03:48, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Since there haven't been any comments I have done what seems best to me. I think that making the box a reasonable width to fit down the right-hand side of articles is more important than including some of the alternative descriptions, so I have removed them. I also let the currency symbols wrap. If you can find a better way of doing this then please do! 86.161.40.200 (talk) 19:49, 29 April 2009 (UTC).

Images for non-standard punctuation

On many browsers, the non-standard characters do not show at all. For the Therefore sign, no image or character is visible. Perhaps we should use an image file at the top of the box in those cases?--Knulclunk (talk) 12:28, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

{{SpecialChars}} is also an option. Therefore displays fine on my vanilla Mac. What OS/browser are you running? --Cybercobra (talk) 16:18, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Ditto Mark and Ibid.

The ditto mark (〃 [U+3003]) is actually pretty common in some circles--at least much more than the interrobang, and percontation point--and serves a unique purpose. Any objection to my adding it to the "General Typography" section?24.190.34.219 (talk) 01:04, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

Size

This is massive, it takes up so much space just for punctuation links. Can we have each section as a drop down?- _J.Logan`^t: 09:16, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Typeface for the large example

Please read the thread above at #Typeface for blown-up symbols, before commenting.

I'll repeat the question I asked at Ezekiel63745's talkpage: I do agree with [the thread above] that Exclamation mark [for example] looks a bit odd with a square dot. Which mark were you looking at, and thinking it needed to be "squarer"? Thanks. -- Quiddity (talk) 01:03, 29 October 2010 (UTC)

Edit request from 24.245.20.235, 21 May 2011

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

In the alphabetical listing of currency signs, the new Indian rupee sign should be under "R"

24.245.20.235 (talk) 02:23, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Done --Cybercobra (talk) 11:25, 21 May 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Unpaiktable, 10 June 2011

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

on the right hand side column of the characters, the names should be the other way around for vertical/broken bar and pipe. The symbols next to them are in the opposite order. it should be pipe, vertical/broken bar rather than the other way around.

Unpaiktable (talk) 15:37, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Done Thanks - Happysailor ^(Talk) 18:59, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from 2007

There was a request to add a collapsible show/hide function. Is this possible to do? USchick (talk) 17:33, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

Please take a look at {{Punctuation marks/testcases}}, I have put something in the {{Punctuation marks/sandbox}}. Even this is an ugly one, because it disturbs the graphic area. Also, later on we should improve the width-changing effect. For sure, since it is a regular infobox, it's basic state should be open (showing). -DePiep (talk) 17:55, 9 August 2011 (UTC)

yes, it definitely disrupts the graphic area. Thanks for trying. USchick (talk) 04:16, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Glad you have the same sensibility. I am not even a typographer. I also tried to put it in the lower list (the sub-table beginning with "Punctuation"), but it did not work. -DePiep (talk) 12:28, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from 217.92.20.187, 25 August 2011

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Tooltip on Japanese yen must be "Japanese yen", not just "¥".

217.92.20.187 (talk) 15:56, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

The tooltip is the wikilink to the page: ¥. If we change that to Japanese yen, we'd create a redirect. In general, that is undesired in templates (should consider a label then). Also, the symbol is for Japanese yen (JPY) and Chinese yuan, so to be correct we'd have to have both of them in the tooltip.

In general, this template is about the (punctuation) sign, not it's meaning. I suggest no change. -DePiep (talk) 16:09, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Done, hopefully satisfying all concerns. — Bility (talk) 18:02, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

No, it should have stayed to the symbol. Not the symbol's meanings. Is what the template is about. -DePiep (talk) 00:17, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Please revert. -DePiep (talk) 00:19, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand the problem. All the currency symbols have English words in the tooltips, why should ¥ be different? How is having ¥ in the tooltip at all helpful, since a reader is already seeing it as the link? The link still goes to the ¥ article, so I just don't understand this opposition. — Bility (talk) 00:29, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

All those characters are in a section called "Currency", so the names of the currencies should be expected in the tooltips, in my opinion. — Bility (talk) 00:34, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

(edit conflict)This template is about punctuation. Apparently that includes currency symbols -- all right. Whatever the currency symbol means, the link should be to the symbol(-page). End of explanation. I have not checked, but the "$" punctuation symbol should link to the page $. From that page, a reader can go ahead and look for the meaning and usage of that punctuation symbol. btw, did I mention that here it is just a punctuation symbol? -DePiep (talk) 00:41, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Jee, I reverted the span-trick changing the tooltip. If it is not by wikilink (redirect at least), then it is not worth editing. No trick needed. -DePiep (talk) 00:46, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

What you are saying doesn't make sense to me (especially about where the link should go, since it never changed), but you reverted and I don't really mind, so whatever. Cheers, — Bility (talk) 01:11, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

In Unicode, the symbol is called U+00A5 ¥ YEN SIGN (¥). It is the name of the sign, not hte meaning. same for (e.g.) U+00024 $ DOLLAR SIGN (&dollar;). It does not say or link to: "US dollar sign". It's just the name of the sign itself, not it's meaning. But clearly I cannot explain this any better. -DePiep (talk) 01:34, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

The main problem with this suggestion is that it's also the currency sign for the Renminbi. --Cybercobra (talk) 04:19, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

The double meaning is described correctly in the intro of the ¥ article. imo there is no problem. Just as one wound expect in the £ to note multiple uses. Another route would be to create a redirect page Japanese yen and Chinese yuan, but we do not use redirects in templates regularly. In general, "¥"is a corerct article name (page name) here. Nothing different from A. But now I leave this, promised, maybe I am boring people already. -DePiep (talk) 12:07, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

If I might clarify: My comment was regarding the IP user's original suggestion. --Cybercobra (talk) 02:22, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

Edit request on 9 January 2012

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

The founding date for the Nu Iota chapter of Phi Beta Sigma is 1980. It was the 1st Greek Organization on the campus of UNCP. 166.137.15.138 (talk) 06:00, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

Think you're on the wrong page, friend. — Bility (talk) 16:50, 9 January 2012 (UTC)

This is hilarious =) --Mudd1 (talk) 17:22, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

<includeonly>

Please, give a link where the absence of <includeonly> makes troubles. In any case, do not make bulk rollbacks (restore <includeonly> if it is needed). Incnis Mrsi (talk) 20:48, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

I reverted your whole edit because the version produced the wrong outcome. Your es was not inviting to spend time on details. -DePiep (talk) 23:05, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

"Wrong outcome" are two words which mean nothing. Report perceivable problems, not just revert one's work because it is not perfect. May be you will gain some respect this way, even if reverting will precede a discussion. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 08:53, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

You did not read both my sentences, did you? -DePiep (talk) 10:46, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Proposal in the sandbox

I have prepared a proposal in the {{punctuation marks/sandbox}}. Please take a look at {{punctuation marks/testcases}} (new sandbox version is lefthand side) to check for any strange effects (Windows IE?).

Major change: the new box with the three variants now is a complete subtemplate box to make it more manageable. Also changed: some effects with the big symbol. Any comments? -DePiep (talk) 17:26, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Done Moved into live. -DePiep (talk) 08:52, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Variants: layout suggestions

Hi,

1. I think it would look better if the row for variants (when included) was always made 100% of the width of the box. At the moment, there can be a blank gap at the end, as illustrated below, which looks like something has gone wrong:

Example

2. If no captions are provided then I think it would be better to suppress the row altogether than have empty grey boxes like this:

Example

Latest revision as of 11:36, 18 April 2012 (edit) (undo)

86.177.108.200 (talk)

I collapsed the examples, and signed your edit. -DePiep (talk) 20:18, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

Good suggestions, I thought of them at first try. Not an easy thing though, so I left them. -DePiep (talk) 20:20, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

We could split {{Currency mark}}. -DePiep (talk) 20:21, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

DUMB BUNNY ALERT! --- stoopid question ahead

Hello, Punctuation Fans:

I've looked through the template and captions, and through the "Talk" page and archives, but no soap.

What does the vertical line to the left of the punctuation mark, shown in the large main image, represent? Does it represent a preceding space, a preceding letter, the edge of the computer screen for all I know? The coma is shown at the bottom of the vertical line with just a smidge of the tail projecting below it; the ampersand projects a little above the vertical line at the top of the mark and well above at the bottom; the is tee aligns with the top of the vertical line; the dagger and twice-as-menacing double dagger aggressively project both above and below the vertical line; the underscore is presented totally below the vertical line and tucked slight under it. It's just not clear to me what that dang vertical line means! And I'm so easily confused! Thank you for helping me understand this matter, Wordreader (talk) 21:20, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

First of al, Wordreader, would you please do not shout. Second, what is a dang vertical line? Three, exactly where did you see it, in the template code, or on the article pages? -DePiep (talk) 06:26, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

It's a Zero-width non-joiner. I'm not sure why it's visible for you, nor why we need it in this template - it's for separating ligatures, but this template doesn't include any ligatures afaik, they're all in Template:Diacritical marks. Hmmmm. Maybe we should remove it? I'll experiment in the sandbox. -- Quiddity (talk) 20:48, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Don't think so. Never heard of a ZWNJ showing up. Also, after the shouting Wordreader did not clarify enough what they saw (e.g. is it gone after your edit then?). -DePiep (talk) 06:31, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

It seems to be unnecessary. There are a few more uses of it in this template, where is also seems to be unneeded (and might show up unexpectedly for other users, as it is for Wordreader, and should therefore be removed?) eg

number sign‌/pound‌/hash

number sign/pound/hash

number sign‌/pound‌/hash

number sign/pound/hash

I can't see any differences between these lines. Can you (anyone) ? If there are no objections, I'll remove all of those, later on today. (like this) -- Quiddity (talk) 21:15, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Removed. If there are any unforeseen consequences, please let us know and revert. -- Quiddity (talk) 03:18, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Indeed no disturbing effects seen. This is the background:

About ZWNJ, in general: in a box or page with limited width (too small for the whole line of text), the ZWNJ does this:

ZWNJ before each slash:
Number sign‌/pound‌/hash‌/number sign‌/pound‌/hash‌/number sign‌/pound‌/hash‌/number sign‌/pound‌/hash
Without ZWNJ:
Number sign/pound/hash/number sign/pound/hash/sign/pound/hash/number sign/pound/hash/number sign/pound/hash/number sign/pound/hash/number sign/pound/hash/number sign/pound/hash
ZWSP before each slash:
Number sign/pound/hash/number sign/pound/hash/number sign/pound/hash/number sign/pound/hash

- ZWNJ was added here in the lines to suggest a line-break in case the line was too wide for its table-template cell, adding a 2nd row in the cell. That would reduce the template's width. It does not happen this way (on my & many a browser), so there is much whitespace in each mid-row. Now we cannot put text and symbol in one table cell (text line) using left and right for the two text-aligns (it would have been be great). Because IE (older) does not render such a line properly. The workaround is that it is a five column table now, per row choosing the number of left- and righthand columns like (1:4) or (3:2). This accomodates different widths of the l/r text elements. It appears that browsers do widen the cell before introduce a line-break, so the ZWNJ line-break option is never used. So no effect when deleting them. Remaining issue is the mid-row whitespace, which is too much to be nice. Long time ago I cleaned up the template, which had many more stacked style & layout effects. -DePiep (talk) 07:07, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

-The thing the shouting editor sees in the top-cell (big mark) was probably introduced to solve that other problem: the big mark crossing the box border. Reads like it is not solved. -DePiep (talk) 07:07, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Ahh, so it was a hack for linebreaks. I believe the {{nowrap}} template is the recommended method, for that. (per Wikipedia:Line break handling#Preventing and controlling word wraps)

I too, could see a large vertical line appear, in a few instances. I did not determine what was causing it to show up, nor why it was only restricted to certain circumstances. -- Quiddity (talk) 11:23, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

No, it was the opposite of {{nowrap}}: trying to get a soft line-break (from the browser) in a regular table cell, so as to make the box less wide (and longer so). Top half of the colored box was looked for. That would reduce mid-line whitespace. But clearly that does not work that way, browsers just keep widening the cell and the whole table instead. So your rm edit has no effect. -DePiep (talk) 15:13, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Added 3rd option to the colored demo box: same text, now with ZWSP before every slash. In the /sandbox no effect still. Sure, ZWSP should be used for this not ZWNJ - if it would work. -DePiep (talk) 15:25, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I wrote that very unclearly. I meant: "Ahhh, so the ZWNJs were being used as a linebreak-control-mechanism. That's an incorrect usage. I think we're meant to be using templates like {{nowrap}}, {{wrap}}, {{spaces}}, and similar, to do that."

I didn't know about {{zwsp}}, that's interesting, thanks. -- Quiddity (talk) 21:05, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

OK now here. Maybe we'll meet om ZWSP vs ZWNJ later on. This template really is a beast waiting to be tamed by CSS. -DePiep (talk) 00:32, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Image of the Interrobang—horrible.

I thought there was a better icon on this page for the Interrobang before… but it (obviously) might have changed.

The current one is horrible. Mostly "interro", almost no "bang". An image combining—visually, STRIKINGLY—both the question mark AND the exclamation point would be better.

If your response is, "Then make one!" I will. ;-) — Preceding unsigned comment added by DarksideHalo (talk • contribs) 17:53, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Note: HOLY CRAP that's not an image, it's text, actually a character. That's WRONG. 1) Looks horrible on my browser. 1.1) Doesn't matter which browser or version or operating system… which emphasizes the point. Since it's not a standard character, we should make a signature image that represents the BEST visualization. 2) There's a better image down the page. Granted, represented in a specific font… — Preceding unsigned comment added by DarksideHalo (talk • contribs) 18:07, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

There are a variety of designs given in the article, at Interrobang#Entering and display. The first in that row is an image, the rest are characters in various fonts.

The font used in this navigation template is chosen via CSS. Current order of precedence (depending on what the user's system has available) is "style="font-size:1250%; font-family:'Times New Roman',Times,Georgia,'Liberation Serif',serif,sans-serif,'Lucida Sans Unicode';" - I agree the enlarged example looks terrible on my system (linux ubuntu, with a handful of custom typefaces installed), but Any changes to the specified typeface in this template would have major repurcussions on All the example marks (again, depending on the user's system). Feel free to suggest changes, but thorough testing is needed before any major changes actually get implemented. -- Quiddity (talk) 20:56, 26 July 2012 (UTC)

Logical symbols

No. If to include logical symbols, when what about +, −, ×, ↪, ↦, ⊕, ⊗? Punctuation marks and general typography is a quite reasonable grouping of symbols. I am not happy even with the presence of currency symbols, but they fortunately do not occupy much space. Don't bloat the navbox. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 08:45, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Currency and trademark symbols are NOT punctuation, but logical symbols are. So what is this template for, if not this very thing? Remove that stuff before you remove the logical symbols. I'm not clear that whoever constructed this thing even knows what punctuation is. Whatev. I'll make one just for logical symbols. Greg Bard (talk) 11:00, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

I've added a link to the new Template:Logical symbols that you created, to the documentation page here.

I've added a link to List of logic symbols within the templates {{Punctuation marks}} and {{Diacritical marks}}.

Both of you: the above discussion is unclear, because it presupposes that you're only talking to each other. Please try to address threads to all who might participate, or at least include diffs so that each person reading the thread doesn't have to research for themselves wtf you're talking about!

I have no opinion on splitting/merging the content, at this time. —Quiddity (talk) 23:30, 21 November 2012 (UTC)

Inclusion criteria

Sure, I would support expelling currencies and intellectual property. The criterion of inclusion to {{punctuation marks}} should be absence of a sense (of something which is perceived as the primary, unambiguous sense) in isolation. There is no sense in . , ! § · ( and even °. But for + ∞ √ ∧ ¤ © there are some concepts which these symbols denote, not only names of symbols like "full stop" and "bracket". Incnis Mrsi (talk) 09:18, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

(I've added a subhead above your comment, to make the tangent a bit clearer. Hope that's ok.)

I'd rather follow an existing system, if one can be chosen, than invent our own inclusion criteria. What is the most basic breakdown of the topic, as used in our system currently? As I see it:

Current groups of typographic marks:

Punctuation, and {{Punctuation marks}}, (theoretically) all in Category:Punctuation
Diacritic, and {{Diacritical marks}}, all in Category:Diacritics
List of logic symbols, and {{Logical symbols}}, all in Category:Logic symbols

Unconnected:

{{Common typographical symbols}}
Currency sign and {{Currency signs}}, all in Category:Currency signs
List of mathematical symbols
Greek letters used in mathematics, science, and engineering, and {{Greek Alphabet}}

Which is veering into:

Grapheme and Glyph and Typography and {{Typography terms}}

Mostly these are within the folds of WP:WikiProject Writing systems and WP:WikiProject Typography.

Tis good to understand (and update) the totality, when contemplating large changes.

Will splitting out the 5 lines of currency marks, benefit our readers more than it hinders them?

Separatism, and Mergism, need to be balanced, and their flaws considered and understood in any situation. (A strong-separatist would advocate, completely understandably, that all the disparate elements currently in this template sh/could be split out into their own navboxes. Most editors would agree that grouping some of them together is a bit more practical. I personally lean towards moderate-mergism in many situations, but try to examine each independently, and think longterm, and be open to convincing...)

Just trying to keep things straight, and organized, for all our benefits. :) —Quiddity (talk) 10:50, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

re Splitting out the currency signs. Shouldn't they be merged into {{Currency signs}}, since that navbox already is on every currency sign page. In other words: a currency sign sidebar would double the same information. (Indeed, "mergeng" would effectively mean "deleting" from {{punctuation marks}} and no new sidebar). -DePiep (talk) 17:32, 22 November 2012 (UTC)

What is the difference between mathematical symbols and logic(al) symbols. Many of the former clearly take the role of punctuation, and some of the latter almost as clearly do not. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 22:03, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Nominated for deletion

Wikipedia:Templates_for_discussion#Template:Logical_symbols

The recently created template Template:Logical symbols, has been nominated for deletion. This may eventually have an impact on the punctuation template, so I thought I would post this here.Greg Bard (talk) 15:19, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Anothrt example of WP:CANVASS. The only relationship between that template and this one is that Greg added some of the symbols to this template before moving them, and some other, to the other template. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 17:29, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Most incompetent Wiki-prosecutor ever. Have you even read the canvas policy? Stop looking for trouble, Arthur. This is where the original discussion was had. I would be remiss to leave them out of the loop here.Greg Bard (talk) 18:28, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Stop quarreling. Creation and also TfD of that tempate is all to the point. If you don't argue at the TfD page, I'll have you both voted into a volunteership (eh ;-)). Now go arguing seriously at the TfD. -DePiep (talk) 21:22, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

Actually, there are two separate questions, which might have two different appropriate sections for discussions.

Whether the template should exist, with TfD as the appropriate location for dicussion.
Whether the information in the template should exist as, say, an expandable section of this template. Discussion on that should be here.

I don't care about the latter, as long as it's not used in articles on logical symbols and concepts. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 22:00, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

No WP:FORUMSHOP. See you at the TfD. -DePiep (talk) 23:45, 24 November 2012 (UTC)

That's not forum shopping, and you should know it. If the result of the TfD is delete, then it wouldn't be contrary to that result to reinsert the template as a subtemplate here. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 08:50, 26 November 2012 (UTC)

Name of Template Not Clear

The name of the template is clearly "Punctuation", however, just looking at the template itself, it looks as though it is without a name with a section called "Punctuation" (with "apostrophe", etc. under that) and a second section, "General Typography", and more sections. In other words, it appears as though "Punctuation" is a section within this template rather than the name for the template. I think what would be good (and I have done something to this effect in the sandbox) is to have the name brought to attention more clearly, and a section under it like so:

<big><big>[[Punctuation]]</big></big> General Punctuation

I appeal to the templates for Jesus, Photography, Areas of Mathematics, Turing Machines (the last one perhaps being the best example since it has a similar shape to the template currently in question).

--Limited Atonement (talk) 20:21, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

"The name of the template is clearly "Punctuation" -- no it is not. -DePiep (talk) 22:49, 3 January 2013 (UTC)

What do you mean? I guess the name of the template is most clearly "Punctuation Marks" (rather than "Punctuation"); I take this from the URL used to see and use the template. It is not clearly labeled on the template itself, but I'm wondering what exactly you mean.

--Limited Atonement (talk) 14:33, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Oh yeah, that should be

<big><big>[[Punctuation]]</big></big>

General Punctuation

(General Punctuation being the section title for "Apostrophe", etc. and on the next line)

--Limited Atonement (talk) 14:36, 4 January 2013 (UTC)

Inclusion criteria

The Japanese symbol ※ (reference mark) is not uncommon typography in English, it is not English typography! It should be deleted.

The symbol ❦ (aldus leaf, hedera) has probably as much if not more contemporary usage as ☞ and ⁂ and seems reasonable to include under Uncommon typography.

hajhouse (talk) 02:22, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 12 January 2013. I think ampersat @ should be included in this list.

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

99.153.64.179 (talk) 03:44, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

It already is under General typography. --Jnorton7558 (talk) 04:21, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Persian Language

I think persian language should add \fa:الگو:نشانه‌ها\ — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rayeshman (talk • contribs) 18:27, 24 January 2013‎ (UTC)

Is it right that the target page does not exist? Incnis Mrsi (talk) 18:35, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

done, I made you job, guy. BTW the doc page is not protected, so I made twice your job. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 18:43, 24 January 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 7 March 2013

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

There is a problem with the links on the currency signs. Since the template is about the symbols, not what they represent, the currency symbols should be linked to the page about the symbol, rather than the page about the currency. For example, the ¥ symbol should be linked to ¥, rather than Japanese_yen, especially because that is not the only currency to use that symbol anyway. There may also be others of them that should, where a page about the symbol exists, be linked to that page, rather than the page about the currency they usually represent.

More precisely, the section that has

should instead contain

108.45.175.173 (talk) 20:37, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Done Makes sense, thank you. — daranz [ t ] 01:15, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

Removal of "Ditto mark"

I'd like to remove the Ditto mark (〃) from this list as it is not part of "general typography" in a Western sense. As discussed and contrary to what the article still states, the Unicode ditto mark is reserved for CJK typography. Before removing it from the list I'd like to ask for opinions here though. The article in its current form was created by an IP so I can't go to the user and ask what he or she used as sources. I'd prefer an expert on English typography to edit the article itself but if there is none who is willing, I'll do it myself. --Mudd1 (talk) 17:19, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

The fact that Unicode has not listed it in Western script(s) does not exactly prove that it does not exist here. The Unicode script_extension (that points to CJK scripts) is not a "reservation" (as in: prohibited for others). [2] states that the CJK-scripts for ditto mark is a more evolving list, changing as research moves on. Unicode also states that the list of usages (CJKs in this case) is based on known, researched isage and that it can vary over time.

We could well end up with a (Western) ditto mark, not yet in Unicode, but with confirmed usage in Western scripts. For sure, in handwriting I do use it. -DePiep (talk) 18:28, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

I didn't want to argue that there is no such thing as a ditto mark. There just isn't a separate character for it. I don't know about your font but for me the 〃 looks terribly out of place. At the very least, the character in the list should be replaced by an image that doesn't look so wrong. --Mudd1 (talk) 20:44, 19 May 2013 (UTC)

Another sign (possibly a double existing one?) should be fine indeed. So removing the line altogether is not the plan. -DePiep (talk) 07:18, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

See ditto mark and talk:ditto mark: I found U+2033 ″ DOUBLE PRIME (″) to be the best Unicode variant. Changed accordingly. -DePiep (talk) 08:42, 20 May 2013 (UTC)

Great, thanks! --Mudd1 (talk) 15:55, 23 May 2013 (UTC)

user:Beland’s additions

Unfortunately, the sidebar historically became unnecessarily inclusionist and there is no consensus even to throw away some certainly inappropriate items, but this should not serve as a pretext to stuff the template with more arbitrary groups of non-letter symbols. The first edit introduced a duplicate (index), the second one added (unrelated) mathematical symbols. I rolled both back. Incnis Mrsi (talk) 17:49, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Whoops, sorry; I didn't see the index already in there.

It seems like we don't have a sensible criterion for inclusion/exclusion of mathematical symbols in this template. For example, we have ÷ but not +, and after this revert, we have a link to logic symbols but not mathematical symbols. Since logic symbols are a subset of mathematical symbols, we could make a single link to the latter if we wanted to keep things streamlined. -- Beland (talk) 18:50, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Focus on Western/English typography

Given that this template focuses on Western punctuation (which makes sense, otherwise it seems like it would be too big), that scope should be made clear. Otherwise, it looks like we're considering "punctuation" to mean only "Western punctuation", which sounds culturally biased. We have links to Chinese, Hebrew, Japanese, and Korean punctuation, which are clearly non-Western, but we also treat non-English quotation marks as "related" rather than first-class marks (which implies an English-only focus). Also note that e.g. the Chinese script symbol for Chinese yuan (元, arguably a grapheme) is not given, only the Latin script one (¥).

What is the best way to do this? Maybe add a centered-text row that says "Western Typographical Symbols" or "English Typographical Symbols" above "Punctuation"? That could also replace the name of the punctuation mark from the transcluding page (which is a bit confusing). -- Beland (talk) 20:17, 29 May 2013 (UTC)

Double vertical bar

The vertical bar template shows a double vertical bar ( ‖ ) just below the main illustration, and it has the word "Magnitude" underneath it. So is this symbol called a magnitude, or is it meant to indicate magnitudes? Because I can't find evidence of either. Can someone find a source? Pdxuser (talk) 21:48, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Plus and Minus Signs look weird.

On my Google Chrome at Plus and minus signs the + and − in the template merged into one mess! I think its due to the width of the box.

I tested the page with my Firefox 17.01, Safari 5.1.7, Opera 12.15, and IE 10, and all of the +− was squished into one letter (a bit like a compressed dagger symbol) except my Safari 5.1.7 where it showed + and − separately with space in between them. Weaktofu (talk) 05:30, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

I think they are supposed to appear merged… — |J ~Pæst| 21:16, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

but like this? http://ernestmainsite.x10.bz/temp/plus%20minus.png 125.239.24.147 (talk) 23:45, 7 September 2013 (UTC)

What do we expect? -DePiep (talk) 00:00, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

If it was the plus or minus sign, then it should look like ±, but this is Plus and minus signs (+ -) not the Plus-minus sign, and if we wanted the plus-minus sign should we just use the unicode symbol for it instead of the current css? Either way, the symbol(s) currently looks different in different browsers, which needs fixing Weaktofu (talk) 00:12, 8 September 2013 (UTC)

Delete copy right content

Cancel — Preceding unsigned comment added by 185.26.180.46 (talk) 20:14, 7 November 2013 (UTC)

Please delete all brackets on the right side of the list and add the symbols < >

Why all symbols have to be on the right side in round brackets? It would be better to delete them all because they derange. Why the symbols < and > and them name are not part of the list? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.174.138.246 (talk) 11:00, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 December 2013

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Another name for the number/hash symbol is octothorpe -- please add 69.95.162.54 (talk) 10:46, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Done Mlpearc (open channel) 04:05, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 December 2013

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

add plus-minus and minus-plus signs please 69.95.162.143 (talk) 23:20, 20 December 2013 (UTC)

Please post the characters you are referring to. Then reset the request by changing answered=yes back to answered=no.
Cheers, Mlpearc (open channel) 04:16, 26 December 2013 (UTC)

69.95.162.143

. Maybe you meant U+00B1 ± PLUS-MINUS SIGN and U+2213 ∓ MINUS-OR-PLUS SIGN. But I don't know if they qualify as "punctuation", they could be just mathematical symbols [3]. (69.95.162.143) -DePiep (talk) 12:11, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 April 2014

This edit request to Template:Punctuation marks has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

117.237.19.23 (talk) 04:27, 20 April 2014 (UTC) Edite

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format. Cannolis (talk) 12:02, 20 April 2014 (UTC)

No more ( )

I think it is time to get rid of the ( ) markers we add. Maybe in typography there are other (better) things, but these ( ) we don't need.

If anyone has an improvement on the comma's too, please tell. -DePiep (talk) 21:45, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

[4]: To me: Wonderful. Great. -DePiep (talk) 21:13, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, great. May I propose. Instead of the earlier comma (punctuation separator) we use a double space. This would appear in the right-hand column. This would also help to clarify & separate the paired punctuation marks (brackets). Technically, that could be >  <-DePiep (talk) 21:43, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Ditto mark (again)

About the ditto mark. Two Unicode characters are in play.

U+3003 〃 DITTO MARK, block=CJK Symbols and Punctuation

U+2033 ″ DOUBLE PRIME (″), block=General Punctuation

Earlier discussions: 1 2 (May 2013). U+3003, the CJK character, is not to be used in Latin text, it is CJK only. -DePiep (talk) 09:30, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

Currency signs lines

I still am not happy with the currency signs show. It could be a straight block running l-to-r, no extra padding. -DePiep (talk)

Why is it not a list like the other sections? -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}} 20:07, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

currency symbols
₳ ฿ ₵ ¢ ₡ ₢ $ ₫ ₯ ₠ € ƒ ₣ ₲ ₴ ₭ ₺ ℳ ₥ ₦ ₧ ₱ ₰ £ ៛ ₽ ₹ ₨ ₪ ৳ ₸ ₮ ₩ ¥

Could be OK too. Would look like? Formatting this template has been a nuisance since years. (If I'm correct, IE8 did not handle align-right issues correct). Other entries can have 4 to 5 nicely on the righthand side, but how to present 25? Let me give a throw: -DePiep (talk) 20:19, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

I was thinking more in the lines of:

Argentine austral ₳ Thai baht ฿ Ghana cedi ₵

BTW, the markup is horribly convulted... just spent 30 minutes just trying to emulate this list. -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}} 22:11, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

(Yes, any markup cleanup is welcome). Hey, there are 34 currency signs. Theoretically you are right: mention the name (~country). Boldly I'd say: better do not. Other route: it's just a navbox (eg, not printed mostly). Then why not collapse a part? -DePiep (talk) 22:18, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

Could also work... Another though: split currency to its own infobox; technically it's not punctiation. -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}} 22:54, 8 February 2015 (UTC)

clutter

This template has officially degenerated into a heap of useless clutter, taking up about a meter of screen real estate on the right margin (where articles want to place other stuff such as images). This happens with every Wikipedia template over time, not to worry. But can we collapse it please? Or offer a less cluttered alternative? --dab (𒁳) 07:00, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Other Rupees

Why are Tamil or other Indic rupee signs not there but only Devanagari one? ௹ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 175.157.80.104 (talk) 11:59, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 26 June 2016

This edit request to Template:Punctuation marks has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Hello,

 Under currency symbols the US Dollar sign ($) is missing.  Please add it.

Thanks you.

96.32.62.83 (talk) 12:18, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

Already done $ is under 'Currency'. — JJMC89 (T·C) 12:24, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

Guillemets

The template seems to be lacking the guillemets (or angle quotes, « ») that are very common in many non-English languages (such as French and Spanish). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.83.158.129 (talk) 13:01, 16 May 2016 (UTC)

Added. -- [[User:Edokter]] {{talk}} 12:47, 26 June 2016 (UTC)

Two tweaks for per/bp sections

Hello, I think that there should be two tweaks made to this template. First of all, "per mil" should be renamed to "permille" or "per mille" to better reflect the page. Secondly, I think that "basis point" should be renamed to "basis point / permyriad" and it should be moved upwards so that it is next to the percent/permille symbols. Let me know what you think. Aaronfranke (talk) 00:03, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

dagger proposals

can we change this to "dagger (obelisk / diesis)" ?

This is 25 characters, the same length as "inverted exclamation mark" which follows 3 below it, so I don't think it would stretch out the table any.

Also re Talk:Dagger_(typography)#Triple_dagger can anyone figure out how to generate this character in Wikipedia so it could display on the table too? I can view it in PDFs but when I cut and paste them to Wikipedia it forms the symbol ⁄ which looks like / and ⹙ which looks like □ or something. ScratchMarshall (talk) 20:10, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

Tab under word deviders?

Shoudn't the tab character » « (ASCII code 9) also be in the word deviders' section? Dan ☺ 23:48, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Doc nomenclature: "sidebar" vs. "infobox"

§ Usage erroneously opened with, "The template is an infobox ...", however, "The template is a sidebar ...", is more accurate in light of infobox guidelines stating, "An infobox is a panel ... that summarizes key features of the page's subject." Template:Punctuation marks offers no such summarizing function to the individual punctuation mark articles in which it is placed, but rather serves to "provide navigation between related articles". Template:Sidebar/doc puts forth that sidebars are "boxes that are vertically-aligned navigation templates". Regarding such,

There are two main varieties of navigation template: navigation boxes (or navboxes), designed to sit at the very bottom of articles, and sidebars, designed to sit at the side of the article text.

With the general Punctuation marks article being an obvious exception, Template:Punctuation marks in practice most often serves to offer links to a wide variety of articles covering different punctuation from that covered in a specific punctuation mark article in which the template is placed, i.e. it serves to help readers navigate elsewhere rather than as a place to summarize details of the topic at hand, hence it 's better referred to as a sidebar, not as an infobox as was previously done.
[Upon consideration, I suppose "navigation template" (perhaps wikilinked) might serve as well as a more general option to "sidebar" (while still offering an improvement over inaccurate "infobox"). Hmm, perhaps sidebar wikilinked to Wikipedia:Navigation template, sorta' combining both as so: [[Wikipedia:Navigation template|sidebar]], might be a both accurate and informative way to go ... Let's try that for awhile, eh?]
A fellow editor, --75.188.199.98 (talk) 15:57, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

I have done a very rough conversion of this template to use {{sidebar}}, at Template:Punctuation marks/sandbox. Other editors may want to follow up with fixes. – Jonesey95 (talk) 04:14, 15 February 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 March 2018

This edit request to Template:Punctuation marks has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

please change the anchor-hyperlink (to jump to the correct section of the page) attached to the "arabic question mark" in the info box at the top right of the page from Mirrored_question_mark_in_semitic_languages_and_arabic_script to the correct anchor for the Mirrored Question Mark in Right to left scripts section 66.194.17.250 (talk) 15:16, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. The "Arabic question mark" is not part of this template. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 17:15, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 April 2018

This edit request to Template:Punctuation marks has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Pleas alphabetize the "General typography" section. It's almost alphabetical, and apparently was at some point in the past, but "multiplication sign", "equals sign" and "basis point" have broken the pattern and need to be moved. Also, "pilcrow" should come before "plus and minus".

As a separate edit I might as well mention at the same time, I'd update the "plus and minus" line to "plus, minus, plus-minus" and add "±". But I'm less certain; skip it if you disagree. (It was discussed back in 2004, before any of the math characters were added.)

Thank you! 23.83.37.241 (talk) 23:15, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Done L293D (☎ • ✎) 01:58, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

prime marks, font

While the triple prime symbol shows correctly on my Android, the single and double primes are indistinguishable from the ASCII straight single and double quotation marks, even when I replace them in the wikicode by their Unicode values, x2032 and x2033 (′ and ″).^[1] Is this a matter of the fonts my phone uses, or is it a Wikipedia problem?

References

^ Unicode chart U2000

--Thnidu (talk) 17:01, 30 April 2019 (UTC)

@Thnidu: I suspect that this a font issue rather than a code issue. I suggest that you experiment with various markups until you find one that clearly distinguishes (like presumably the default one doesn't). But then you have to be aware that not all readers on all platforms will have that font if it is at all unusual so that 'what you see is not what they get' after font substitution. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 14:19, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

Add lines to template to give Unicode code point and name?

I wonder if there would be a consensus in favour of adding a couple of extra lines to the template, to give the Unicode code point and name for the symbol? For example the pound sign is £, U+00A3, POUND SIGN. Comments? --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 13:42, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

@John Maynard Friedman: Maybe? It might help to see a mocked up example to get an idea for how it would look. What about the templates that have alternate versions shown, like at Slash (punctuation)? –Deacon Vorbis (carbon • videos) 13:49, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

I suspect that I have fallen into the infobox/sidebar trap but let's see. If there is more interest, I will have a go to see how it looks, I don't want to spend time on it if the whole idea will be met with a chorus of disapproval. Thank you especially for pointing out that some marks that already have a second line. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 14:11, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

"the infobox/sidebar trap" is a nice observation. In this case, it looks like a combination: in top is infobox info, the list is sidebar (navigation). Not a problem IMO, I've read no objections re this over all these years. Having an infobox part (if we agree) implies that there can be more infobox data. Already variants are in there (Slash (punctuation)); the Unicode U+ code and name can be there too. Somehow I think there should be a limit to the number of characters (not dozens of space variants). -DePiep (talk) 10:32, 5 September 2019 (UTC)

Facility to show/hide (collapse) sections needed

I have been working on the pound sign article and have been struck by the amount of irrelevant [to that article] information being displayed in the infobox: the space it takes up is wp:undue. It should be possible to collapse, for example, the whole block of punctuation characters in currency articles (and conversely). Where do I go to request this development? --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 12:01, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

Have I fallen into the infobox/sidebar trap again??? --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 12:02, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

Guess so... and so did the creators of the box. You are right in this sense: infobox should be separated from sidebar (navigation). Would allow more article info in the infobox. Then, different collapse rules apply (do not collapse infobox; sidebar does not show in mobile, and may be collapsible?). -DePiep (talk) 16:36, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

Proposal: split into Infobox and Sidebar navbox

After this observations by John Maynard Friedman: I propose to split this template into a true Infobox (article summary) and a correct Sidebar (punctuation navigation). As it stands now, it is a mixture, introducing unwanted effects (for example, very long while most is not related to the article itself)

The new {{Infobox punctuation mark}} holds exactly the header block of this template: info related to the individual mark (=article). Template {{Punctuation marks/sandbox}} will be the new Sidebar navbox code (this template's live code), with top block removed and mostly unchanged from the current version. By class & format, it is a {{Sidebar}}.

When we agree, implementation requires each article to have an edit (splitting the template into two). After this, both templates can be improved as we think good - independently (for example: move the sidebar to below as regular navbox?, add image option to the infobox?, change name into Template:Sidebar ...).

demo (as of now: [5]) -DePiep (talk) 23:28, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

Proposal: split this template into {{Infobox punctuation mark}} (new) and {{Punctuation marks/sandbox}} (new code for here). When agreed and implemented, both templates can develop independently.

Comments, opinions?

-DePiep (talk) 17:39, 12 November 2019 (UTC) (fixed & clarified things, -DePiep (talk) 22:36, 12 November 2019 (UTC))

Technical cleanup beforehand: I have added tracking Category:Pages using Infobox punctuation mark with unknown parameters, and parameter names like |mark=,, |name=Comma to replace unclear parameters |1, 2, caption=. Does not change the proposal. -DePiep (talk) 09:40, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

Support, obviously, from I have written in preceding sections above. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 22:28, 12 November 2019 (UTC)
- Comment: consideration should be given to a new title (since it is about more than punctuation). I assume that the sections will be collapsed by default? BTW, "word dividers" should be in general typography, which should also contain "uncommon typography. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 22:28, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

Everything reasonable can be done, later. My first concern is to split. Future names: see future, will be all right always this beng a wiki. -DePiep (talk) 22:42, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

support, or just change this to {{sidebar with collapsible lists}} since the "infobox portion" seems minimal. Frietjes (talk) 01:02, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

OK, will move this one when splitting. -DePiep (talk) 08:59, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

Y — I note consensus. I will make the split, report here, and then further edits can be made. -DePiep (talk) 20:15, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Done Current live templates:

{{Infobox punctuation mark}} (talk)

{{Sidebar punctuation marks}} (talk)

-DePiep (talk) 21:44, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Possible improvements

Now that the template is split, some obvious and useful improvements are waiting. Some might need discussion.

Make sidebar collapsible using {{sidebar with collapsible lists}}
Reform & replace into bottom navbox
Remove all currency signs from this one (there iexists {{Currency symbols}})
Sift through marks: do these all belong in here? Name & grouping is right?
Check & cure overlap with {{Infobox grapheme}} (see ampersand)

I leave it to others to pichk up things (no need to wait for me). -DePiep (talk) 21:53, 19 November 2019 (UTC)

Removed: currency symbols

I have removed from this Sidebar the "currency symbol" subsection [6]. Currency signs are not punctuation. Kept symbol link for "¤" as a see-also.

Complementary, {{Sidebar punctuation marks}} is removed from all currency sign articles (Category:Currency symbols (82)).

In currency sign articles (about a sign), and maybe currency articles (about a currency), exactly navbox {{Currency symbols}} should be added to the bottom. That navbox can be maintained well. ping John Maynard Friedman -DePiep (talk) 17:43, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

@DePiep:, I went through all the ones that used the old punctuation sidebar and all had the Currency symbols navbox. There are about as many again that didn't use the sidebar but I'm dubious about putting the infobox into them since they may require unicode support that not all readers have. (Is this really still true?) --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 19:28, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

I checked all currency articles that were listend in this sidebar. In some I had to add {{Currency symbols}} (bottom navbar). So now, wret te Sidebar, all currency signs are away from this Sidebar.

As for the infobox: {{Infobox punctuation mark}} does have the unicode option (since 30 minutes! see !) |unicode=, and |other_names=.

I meant that there may be readers whose browsers can't render all major Unicode symbols, not that we can't offer them. But time will take care of it, so I'll stop worrying :-) --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 19:49, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

However: since for example Pound sign is not a punctuation, we shold not use this infoboxc and find another one like "Infobox character". Don't know which one that would be. For now, {{Infobox punctuation mark}} can do the basic stuff in there I think. -DePiep (talk) 19:36, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Yes, I agree, I was just about to ask you if you were happy for me to copy that infobox to create a currency infobox. It will have just the symbol as at present but also a link to currency symbols. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 19:45, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

New infobox:currency sign

I have started work on a new template:infobox currency sign, which is a shameless copy of template:infobox punctuation mark. Doing this will allow future divergence as each becomes more customised to its target market. Advice and comments at template talk:infobox currency sign will be most welcome. As of 21 November 2019, it is not deployed anywhere yet. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 18:56, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

To improve: foreign language punctuation

Maybe we could expand the list with foreign language marks. See the Category:Punctuation (79) for suggestions. -DePiep (talk) 19:40, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Yes, of course, and the change to navbar as proposed below makes it to introduce without worrying about disrupting articles where the template is used. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 20:45, 22 November 2019 (UTC)

Removal of symbols

I suggest to remove also the multiplication sign, plus, minus, plus-minus and minus plus, for the same reason: they are not punctuation signs, even for the syntax of mathematical formulas. D.Lazard (talk) 18:01, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Fine. Any more math symbols to look at? -DePiep (talk) 18:09, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

I think that we are misdirecting ourselves by the fact that the sidebar (which, IMO, should be a horizontal navbar) is called punctuation. We need a repository for all these obscure mathematical symbols and the currency symbols (if you don't know it is currency symbol, where do you start?). So if we were to change to name to Symbols (or Non-alphanumeric symbols for the purists), it would be valid and useful to keep these. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 19:42, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

If you change the name to "Symbols" or "non-alphabetic symbols" you must include a lot of mathematical symbols. You can find an (incomplete) list of these symbols at List of mathematical symbols. It is clear that they are too numerous for being listed in a navbox. However, one of them deserves to be mentioned here, as appearing as a true punctuation symbol, which is not used in formulas; that is

\blacksquare

(tombstone (typography) or Q.E.D. mark). D.Lazard (talk) 22:52, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

In that case, maybe it would be best if the navbar just had a pointer to that list rather than to wp:fork a copy of it (which is not allowed in any case). --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 23:08, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Not my intention to go thisa way. There are 10,000's of symbols in Unicode. Maybe we can add some groups to the See-also list (math symbols etc). -DePiep (talk) 07:27, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

New template:infobox symbol

I have created (well, ok, shamelessly copied {{Infobox currency sign}} created by DePiep and removed the currency-specific bits) a new {{Infobox symbol}} that can be used for non-alphanumeric signs and symbols that don't have a more appropriate infobox (such as we already have for punctuation and currency). Comments welcome at template talk:Infobox symbol. As 30 November, it is not yet in use anywhere but I have left a statement of intent to do so at talk:estimated sign and, unless anyone objects, will go ahead in the next few days. Other uses would require articles to host them. --John Maynard Friedman (talk) 14:27, 30 November 2019 (UTC)

[1] Unicode chart U2000

[1]