User talk:Sutyarashi

A belated welcome!

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Punjabi Muslims Page

I added Barha Sayyids multiple times on the page because they were descendants of Punjabis who migrated to Muzaffarnagar from their ancestral villages in Patiala

Instead of removing edits without giving a valid reason, leave a message on my talk page and I will make amends

Regards Jat1321 (talk) 16:03, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

Barhas are a well known royal house of subcontinent who claimed to be Sayyids. Add a reliable source on that they ever spoke Punjabi; and I will not undo your additions. Thanks Sutyarashi (talk) 16:18, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

References

Sultan Muqarrab Khan moved to draftspace

An article you recently created, Sultan Muqarrab Khan, is not suitable as written to remain published. It needs more citations from reliable, independent sources. (?) Information that can't be referenced should be removed (verifiability is of central importance on Wikipedia). I've moved your draft to draftspace (with a prefix of "Draft:" before the article title) where you can incubate the article with minimal disruption. When you feel the article meets Wikipedia's general notability guideline and thus is ready for mainspace, please click on the "Submit your draft for review!" button at the top of the page. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 13:03, 18 October 2022 (UTC)

Fan POV Lahore

I noticed that you removed the FanPOV template I placed on the Lahore article. The article has several instances of Fan POV such as the Education part. I have placed the template again, please remove it only after fixing the afore mentioned problem. Flamealpha123 (talk) 15:20, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

Sorry, I must've removed it by mistake. It was not intentional. Regards.Sutyarashi (talk) 15:23, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

Going through page history, I found out that it was done by User:Agent05032, not by my edits. Sutyarashi (talk) 15:26, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

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Speedy deletion nomination of File:Cathedral of the Holy Redeemer Multan.jpeg

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Greeting

Hi, hope you are doing well, all I can say is that I loved your contributions on articles about South Asia, specially the well-researched your contributions in the Punjab and Pakistan articles. Some days ago, you were sceptical to the changing of the article Taank Kingdom to a more common name in all sources I have found. I think it's the better etymology for the article since it's the WP:COMMONNAME and the name "Taank" is virtually nonexistent in literature and sources. Regards Jamal047 (talk) 18:23, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for asking. The variations regarding its name are due to transliteration from Chinese. This kingdom is so poorly documented that its probably the only source are travels of Xuanzeng. As creator of the page, I know that information about it is scarce and I had to depend on colonial era documents. To double check, I did visited Google ngram and although I couldn't find exactly "Taank kingdom" or "Takka kingdom" due to being so unknown, I did, surprisingly, found usage of another variant "Taki" (Taki-Desa) to be much more than either Taank or Takka.[1] Now, though these may have other meanings too apart from this kingdom, but it gives a fairly clear idea about which is more used. This name is also given in multiple already cited sources i.e and So, if you're so insisted on WP:COMMON then I guess the page should be moved to Taki kingdom. The alternative is keeping the title as it's, till more information about this particular state comes to view. Sutyarashi (talk) 15:29, 9 December 2022 (UTC)

References

Vision Technologies moved to draftspace

An article you recently created, Vision Technologies, is not suitable as written to remain published. It needs more citations from reliable, independent sources. (?) Information that can't be referenced should be removed (verifiability is of central importance on Wikipedia). I've moved your draft to draftspace (with a prefix of "Draft:" before the article title) where you can incubate the article with minimal disruption. When you feel the article meets Wikipedia's general notability guideline and thus is ready for mainspace, please click on the "Submit your draft for review!" button at the top of the page. MarioGom (talk) 20:54, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Happy New Year!

Sutyarashi,
Thanks for your contributions to Wikipedia, and a Happy New Year to you and yours! Packer&Tracker (remark) 10:35, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

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– Send New Year cheer by adding {{subst:Happy New Year}} to user talk pages.

Packer&Tracker (remark) 10:35, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

I am thankful to you for appreciating my contributions and a very Happy Near Year to you too!Sutyarashi (talk) 10:40, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Courtesy alert re: ANI

Please be advised that an IP editor has opened a thread about you at WP:ANI. See WP:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents#suppression of Baloch pages. —C.Fred (talk) 18:25, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

...And that IP is now blocked for a month as a sockpuppet, so nothing to worry about. —C.Fred (talk) 18:35, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

Mallian people moved to draf.tspace

An article you recently created, Mallian people, is not suitable as written to remain published. In the current sourcing, there is not enough information to pass WP:VERIFY, please see WP:CIT to see what information needs to be included in footnotes and references. It needs more citations from reliable, independent sources. (?) Information that can't be referenced should be removed (verifiability is of central importance on Wikipedia). I've moved your draft to draftspace (with a prefix of "Draft:" before the article title) where you can incubate the article with minimal disruption. When you feel the article meets Wikipedia's general notability guideline and thus is ready for mainspace, please click on the "Submit your draft for review!" button at the top of the page. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 15:57, 7 January 2023 (UTC)

Your GA nomination of History of Punjab

The article History of Punjab you nominated as a good article has failed ; see Talk:History of Punjab for reasons why the nomination failed. If or when these points have been taken care of, you may apply for a new nomination of the article. Message delivered by ChristieBot, on behalf of Premeditated Chaos -- Premeditated Chaos (talk) 01:01, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

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Re: Sindhis, Removal of information on opinionated expressions

Hello Sutyarashi, I hope you are doing well.

I reverted you're edits on Sindhis, i noticed that you removed a core piece of Information on Sindhi ethnic group.

You removed the following:

"Sindhi people have been native to Sindh throughout history, apart from that their historical region has always came from the South-eastern side of Balochistan, the Bahawalpur region of Punjab and the Kutch region of Gujarat, India."

This information was correct because if you look historical Sindh maps then the region really expanded to where till Kutch.
Incase you got a little confused, you can check the following articles and their maps:

• Balochistan
• Punjab
• Sindh
• Kutch

Thanks for cooperating.
~TheBushSush (talk) 10:40, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

For reference see the maps below:

• 1.
  
• 2. Map of the Chachas circa 650 CE.png

Copying within Wikipedia requires attribution

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Editing the lead

Please note that the MOS:LEAD summarises the article body. If you do not have an interest in reading the body, I suggest that you do not edit the lead. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 14:05, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

@Kautilya3, first of all, I have been editing that particular page for a year, so actually your claim of having no interest in reading the body is quite ridiculous. Next, that particular line actually went like this (which I restored) before it was changed [2] a month ago; after which you've been repeatedly resisting to change it to WP:NPOV. Also, that was the policy of a particular Sultan, and even that was reversed after his death. So, your insistence on adding into lead is actual "nonsense" (which you called such as in your edit summary). Sutyarashi (talk) 14:26, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Maybe you have edited before. That doesn't concern me. I have had to revert random IPs changing the wording numerous times in the last few months. Finally, when I see a registered editor doing the same edit, and calling it "neutral language", that is more than I can handle. There is no such thing as "neutral language" on Wikipedia. What we have is WP:NPOV, which means do what the the balance of RS do. Not our own idea of "neutral".

If you are reverting to the original wording or some older wording, you can say so in the edit summary, and if possible, give the revision number. Then it becomes the responsibility of whoever wants a change to justify their wording. As far as I can see, the wording is amply justified by what is in the Shah Mir dynasty#Sikander section. Your claim that it was only "one particular Sultan" that did it doesn't cut any ice. Once they are converted, they are converted. Another Sultan doesn't have anything more to do. The net effect of the dynasty is that they forcibly converted the entire population of the Valley except for the die-hard Pandits. The Sultan Sikandar section makes it clear that it was largely a forced conversion. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 17:35, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

@Kautilya3, yes, I actually meant WP:NPOV by neutral language, though bad wording, probably. Still, the present sentence gives impression on the readers that all Sultans of Kashmir actively tried to forcefully convert people; far from truth, to say. Mind if it's changed into something like:During the rule of the dynasty, Islam became dominant faith in the Kashmir valley, with references? Also, you're ignoring the role of Sufis in proselytizing the religion, especially that of Mir Sayyid Ali Hamadani. Sutyarashi (talk) 18:32, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

"Dominant" doesn't represent the fact that practically the entire population got converted. Sufis can't convert 97% of the population. It happened nowhere else in India. Why should it have happened in Kashmir? How do you explain the hard fact that the Pandits, who didn't want to convert, were forced to leave the Valley? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 18:55, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

References

@Kautilya3, it did happen at many places; Sindh, Bengal, Gilgit, Hyderabad... Delhi too had Muslim majority for centuries. Your Pandit exodus mention seems laughable. I mean literally how's a 1990s event related to a dynasty that ended in 1586?? You overlooked millions of Kashmiris who left valley during Dogra rule and 1947 Jammu Muslim massacres, though. Don't know why but it gives a feeling that you're writing that with a specific agenda, sorry to say, 'cause you're a respectable and old Wikipidian. Repeating though, wouldn't it be much better if we just write that Islam became majority faith, and leave it on readers to how much delve in it? It's just lead sentences, after all. Sutyarashi (talk) 19:06, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

@Kautilya3 seems like that I wasn't the only one who thought it, and @TrangaBellam has already restored it on the article. Sutyarashi (talk) 19:22, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

The first stone sculpture of Kashmir—a four-armed Brahma, argued to be one of the finest in the history of the subcontinent—was sculpted by son of a Buddhist Sanghapati in 1409 and dedicated to Sikandar. How does this sculpture, crafted in the fag end of an allegedly iconoclastic reign, help challenge simplistic notions of religious persecution?

TrangaBellam (talk) 19:52, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Sultan Sikandar didn't write an autobiography. But his contemporary, Timur, did. He writes:

The Raja of Jammu, who was wounded and prisoner ... agreed to pay certain sums of money and to become a Musulman if I would spare his life. I instantly ordered him to be taught the creed, and he repeated it and became a Muhammadan. Among these infidels there is no greater crime and abomination than eating the flesh of a cow or killing a cow, but he ate the flesh in the company of Musulmans. When he had thus been received into the fold of the faithful, I ordered my surgeons to attend to his wounds, and I honoured him with a robe and royal favours.

How did Timur know he had to do this? -- Kautilya3 (talk) 21:48, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

In all probabilities, what we know as Timur's autobiography is a fabrication, drafted centuries after he had died. All serious (academic) historians of the era accept that it was a sixteenth century creation and ignore it. TrangaBellam (talk) 09:43, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

@Kautilya3 because he was invading India?? And he knew how one became Muslim? Also, how can you say that it's related to Sultans of Kashmir? Your analogy is absurd. Sutyarashi (talk) 01:27, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

That is a specific technology of conversion that was apparently practised widely at the time. In Kashmir, we have tradition that says it was used on a mass scale to convert the entire population. I already said that Sikandar didn't write an autobiogaphy but Timur did. Sikandar paid tribute to Timur, sending Zain-ul-Abidin (reportedly) to Samarkhand.

Not satisfied with these measures, the king [Sikandar] is said to have eventually proclaimed all over his kingdom that his Hindu subjects should choose between Islam, exile or the sword. Large scale conversions to Islam followed and many people escaped out of Kashmir. ‘By the end of his reign all Hindu inhabitants of the Valley, except the Brahmans, had probably adopted Islam’ (Lawrence 1909, p. 24). Tradition has it that only eleven Brahman families survived in Kashmir when Sikandar died in A.D. 1413–14 (see Lawrence 1895, p. 191).

Zain-ul-Abidin invited these Brahmans (later called "Pandits") back to Kashmir and employed them in the state. He has been praised by "bud shah" by the Pandits. But scholars say that it was just a necessity because the Brahmans knew how to run the state machinery, the others didn't. Zain-ul-Abidin raided all the way to Lo Manthang, north of Khatmandu. During his reign, the Kargil rulers at Kartse were convered, and Islam was consolidated in Baltistan. About a hundred years of history is missing in all the chronicles of all the Buddhist regions. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 10:32, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

What I am saying is that Timur did not write any autobiography; the text that is attributed to as Timur's autobiography in pop-history books — Tuzūkāt-i Taymūrī — is accepted by almost all historians as a sixteenth century fabrication which was explicitly intended for circulation in the Mughal cosmopolis.

The rest is, err, irrelevant? TrangaBellam (talk) 11:28, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

Malfuzat-i Timuri is the name I am familiar with. And I was quoting from Andre Wink. I know you don't give him much due, but certainly not a "pop historian".

All indications are that the Shah Miris exerted an extremely strong Islamisation drive, well beyond anything witnessed anywhere else in the subcontinent. -- Kautilya3 (talk) 15:30, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

References

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Adding infobox image to the article covering the Dogra-Tibetan War

Hello! I wanted to get your opinion on a discussion I started regarding adding artwork depicting Zorawar Singh's army in Ladakh as an infobox image, please see: Talk:Dogra–Tibetan War#Adding a depiction of Zorawar Singh's army in Ladakh (not sure if I am doing this correctly, I haven't started a consensus building query on Wikipedia before) ThethPunjabi (talk) 21:58, 11 February 2023 (UTC)

History of Punjab page

I've noticed you've questioned the factual validity of the Vardhana empire, Eastern Punjab republics and the Tomara/Katoch dynasties section. What is the reason for this? Trigarta (talk) 17:23, 13 February 2023 (UTC)

WP:TONE and WP:Synthesis has been corrected for in all 3 topics, So warning should be removed now. Thanks Trigarta (talk) 23:46, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

@Trigarta: your edits, specifically on the lead, have created a mess. For example you added this line: It contained many heavily Punjab influenced dynasties such as the reign of Razia Sultana, the Sayyid dynasty and the Tughlaq dynasty.

This is not only unverified and ethnic POV pushing, but infact a WP:HOAX. Please refrain from doing original research and adding such claims in the lead. Sutyarashi (talk) 08:34, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

It is not WP:HOAX, if you asked me to provide all the sources I would have, rather than deleting them. The Tughlaqs hail from Multan and Eastern Punjab and the Sayyids have theirs roots as Punjabi Kokhars with their home town in South Punjab. Razia sultana gained most of her support from Punjab aswell. Trigarta (talk) 14:36, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Reward

		A plate of Samosa for you
		Hello, I've noticed you've been working hard on improving the Jat Muslim page. I have been reading what you've been adding and found your additions very fascinating and informative. To show appreciation, I'm leaving a plate of samosa for you. Enjoy! Thank you. ThethPunjabi (talk) 17:09, 9 March 2023 (UTC) For more Indian dishes, visit the Kitchen of WikiProject India.

ThethPunjabi (talk) 17:09, 9 March 2023 (UTC)

Concern regarding Draft:Sultan Muqarrab Khan

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Shah Miris connection with Gabari Sultans

Shah Mir Page Wikipedia :There are two theories regarding Shah Mir's origin. Some Persian chronicles of Kashmir describe Shah Mir as a descendant of the Gabri Swati rulers of Swat  Historian A. Q. Rafiqi thinks it more likely that he was a descendant of Persian or Turkic immigrants to Swat. It has also been suggested that he belonged to a Sufi or Qadiri family. Some scholars state that the Panj-gabbar valley, the location described by Jonaraja, was actually peopled by Khasas and so ascribe a Khasa ethnicity to Shah Mir. Most modern historians accept the Swati origins of Shah Mir. Kashmiri scholar N. K. Zutshi, having critically examined the sources, reconciles the two versions by noting that the Persian chronicles mentions Swadgir rather than Swat, which he interprets as Swadgabar, meaning "suburbs of Gabar", which coincides with Jonaraja's description of Panchagahvara-Simani (on the borders of Panchagagvara).

My comments : When three families Gabaris, Mumayalis and Mitravis came to Hazara from Swat then they were combinely called Swatis. Brother Look at this if there is something to argue on it then tell me so I stop editing that page again n again. As Gabaris are Persians and it is proved in recent DNA that you can find on google. Shah Mir was Gabari as accepted my many historians. Thank You Gibari Sultan (talk) 13:21, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

@Gibari Sultan I have reported you for explicitly showing sockpuppet behaviour. You're free to defend yourself there. Sutyarashi (talk) 13:28, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

why you are not replying to my questions instead of reporting, Means you want to impose your knowledge on others Gibari Sultan (talk) 13:34, 9 April 2023 (UTC)

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Early Mughal Sikh wars

Hello. I saw you changed some numbers. I have provided page numbers here and links at the bottom of the article in question. On page 211 Max Arthur provides casualties. The number is 50,000 for that battle. On page 96 he provides 7,000 for one battle. On page 149 the author of The Sikh Gurus he provides a number for another battle which is 15,000. So what we can do is not combine all the casualties but just list them out for each battle.

Ex. Battle of Amritsar 7,000

Battle of Rohilla 15,000

Battle of Lahira 35,000

Battle of Kartarpur 50,000

Is the above fine with you? I will provide adequate citation from reliable sources

P.S Gurbilas is about Guru Hargobind not Guru Gobind Singh. CanadianSingh1469 (talk) 18:55, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

Also @Sutyarashi maybe we can use Gurbilas as reference for the numbers but say according to Sikh sources. So for example According to Sikh Sources: 75,000 CanadianSingh1469 (talk) 19:06, 13 April 2023 (UTC)

@CanadianSingh1469 you cannot merge all sources to give a combine no., this is original research. Also, Gurbilas does not seems to be a historical account. You should find a reliable reference (see WP:HISTRS). Even the macauliffe source which is frequently used in the article is outdated by more than a century. Sutyarashi (talk) 09:43, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

Just because a source is old does not make it unreliable. What I an suggesting is listing out each individual casualty for the battles per Max Arthur and not combining them. Is that ok with you?

To quote from the Encyclopaedia of Sikhism, “ GURBILAS CHHEVIN PATSHAHl, lit. the (life)play of the Sixth Guru, is a versified biography of Guru Hargobind…” CanadianSingh1469 (talk) 09:48, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

It really depends on how much reliable Macauliffe is; but it is better if individual numbers are separately listed. Sutyarashi (talk) 09:55, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

Ok. I will go ahead with it. So is it a firm no on using Gurbilas because I think it can be used by saying per Sikh sources beside it. CanadianSingh1469 (talk) 09:56, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes, because it is more of an epic than a historical account. If you wish, you can have a separate section on what Sikh biographies say but not in the info box. Sutyarashi (talk) 09:59, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

Ok. Thanks for agreeing and being so helpful. I wish there were more editors like you instead of people who just revert and don’t elaborate. CanadianSingh1469 (talk) 10:10, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

@Sutyarashi By the way you seem to know a lot of history about the Mughals. Could you point me to some sources talking about Zabardast Khan who was a governor of Lahore during Guru Gobind Singh’s time. Thanks in advance. CanadianSingh1469 (talk) 10:28, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

Regarding deletion of talk page comment

Hello, I noticed you left a second-level warning notice on my talk page meanwhile when I left a general caution message you removed and deleted it, Isn't it a biased thing to do? ⭐️ Starkex ⭐️ 📧 ✍️ 17:36, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

@Starkex Because you accused me of mass deleting content, which never happened. On the other hand, you are adding material about which there is no reliable source, that's why I left a message at you talk page. Sutyarashi (talk) 17:38, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

Nevertheless, I understood all that and pardon if I committed an mistake but on the other hand removing Talk page comments is not a polite way of solving editorial disputes. ⭐️ Starkex ⭐️ 📧 ✍️ 17:42, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

That's only if that those messages have merit. Sutyarashi (talk) 17:44, 16 April 2023 (UTC)

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Concern regarding Draft:Vision Technologies

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May 2023

• There are 3 paragraphs which talk about atrocities. Why do you want more? You are not helping yourself by merely restoring sock edits here. Source does not say "400,000 Hindu people" were killed, nor there is any relevance of "Maharashtra Purana". Since the page is not about atrocities, any deeply cherrypicked focus on atrocities is WP:UNDUE. If you want to restore any content then write it on your own by carefully verifying the source and avoiding any kind of repetition. I would also add that a number of the sources you are restoring are outdated. Editorkamran (talk) 00:55, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

  @Editorkamran which sock you're talking about? The IP with which you were edit warring earlier has no block history. Please avoid accusing others of Sockpuppetry without any evidence, as it may lead you being indeffed.

  As for content, I cannot understand what are your exact objections over it. The section clearly discusses the Burgi war crimes, and it should cover all aspects of it. Nothing is WP:UNDUE as the sources are same over which whole article stands., neither I'm aware of any WP guidelines which requires me writing the content from scratch. Sutyarashi (talk) 01:31, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

That IP is a sock puppet. See here.

There are already 3 paragraphs which talk about atrocities. There is no need to add more. What you restored was almost 80% repetition of what already exists in the article. Editorkamran (talk) 01:57, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

@Editorkamran your link only shows a user requesting increased page protection, and no evidence that IP was identified as a sock. Anyways, I think there should be no problem with additional content (excluding repetition) in the section. There is no policy that a section can not be of more than 3 paragraphs. Sutyarashi (talk) 03:19, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Then go and report the person who concluded that the IP is a sock and also report the admin who agreed with the finding instead of creating your own imagination.

There is a policy called WP:UNDUE. Read again, I am saying you cannot REPEAT the same content. I already said "What you restored was almost 80% repetition of what already exists in the article." Editorkamran (talk) 09:08, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

@Editorkamran there is no need of reporting anyone, because IP was not identified as a sock to start with. Instead of going WP:PERSONAL, just identify the "80% parts" which you think were repeated Otherwise there is no reason for objection over the sourced content.

For example, there is no mention of rapes committed by Marathas in the current section nor of the resulting migration of people. If you failed to describe why you do not want these sections then I will move ahead for adding. Remember that WP:JUSTDONTLIKEIT is not a reason for removal. Sutyarashi (talk) 10:03, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Since the IP was dynamic, there was no need to block it as sock.

WP:ILIKEIT was clearly your reason to restore repetitive content which misrepresents sources.

"Contemporary accounts of the invasions report mass gang rape against women, and mutilation of victims by the Marathas which included cutting off their hands and noses." This the only sentence which hasn't been mentioned. Everything else is already there. Editorkamran (talk) 11:10, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

@Editorkamran socks are immediately blocked even if they are IPs. This is just your speculation that it was not identified as a sock because it was dynamic so that you can remove their edits. And no, I don't want the content in the section because "I like it" but because there is no justification for its removal. Except the 400,000 figure, no statement was repeated in the section. Sutyarashi (talk) 03:52, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

The paragraph replicated earlier paragraphs.

"During their occupation, the Marathas are said to have perpetrated massacres against the local population" vs "During that period of invasion by the Marathas, warriors called as "Bargis", perpetrated atrocities against the local population of Bengalis and Biharis."

"Many of the Bengali Hindus in western Bengal also fled to take shelter in East Bengal, fearing for their lives in the wake of the Maratha attacks."vs "Many of the Bengalis in western Bengal also fled to take shelter in East Bengal, fearing for their lives in the wake of the Maratha attacks"

"Marathas intended to establish their rule in western Bengal by attracting the local Hindu zamindars against the Muslim Nawab but the high atrocities against the Hindu population diminished all the possibilities of such an alliance" vs "Zamindars outside the affected districts and also from the districts that involved this conflict were affected by the Maratha raids."

Entirely repetitive. Editorkamran (talk) 23:47, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

@Editorkamran still there is no mention of mass rapes, which wee widely reported and are supported by credible sources. Sutyarashi (talk) 06:34, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

That's what I said here. Have included it back now.[3] Editorkamran (talk) 13:27, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

Greetings

Hi, hope you are fine. You grilled the chap Gibari Sultan well. I think he would have learnt his lesson. Thanks for the help. I am editing Swati page with Modern anthro and genetic proofs hope you wont mind. Too much edit wars on page. I would appreciate if you understand. Thanks for the help with this bully again I am really grateful. Regards Azmarai76 (talk) 17:42, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Avoiding cut-and-paste moves

Hi, and thank you for your contributions to Wikipedia. It appears that you tried to give Trigarta Kingdom a different title by copying its content and pasting either the same content, or an edited version of it, into Trigarta. This is known as a "cut-and-paste move", and it is undesirable because it splits the page history, which is legally required for attribution. Instead, the software used by Wikipedia has a feature that allows pages to be moved to a new title together with their edit history.

In most cases for registered users, once your account is four days old and has ten edits, you should be able to move an article yourself using the "Move" tab at the top of the page (the tab may be hidden in a dropdown menu for you). This both preserves the page history intact and automatically creates a redirect from the old title to the new. If you cannot perform a particular page move yourself this way (e.g. because a page already exists at the target title), please follow the instructions at requested moves to have it moved by someone else. Also, if there are any other pages that you moved by copying and pasting, even if it was a long time ago, please list them at Wikipedia:Requests for history merge. Thank you. DanCherek (talk) 16:28, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

Hi @DanCherek. My purpose actually wasn't to move the whole article, I just wanted to split it into the Kingdom which was mentioned in Hindu mythology and the actual, historical people. Sutyarashi (talk) 07:32, 9 June 2023 (UTC)

Your draft article, Draft:Vision Technologies

Hello, Sutyarashi. It has been over six months since you last edited the Articles for Creation submission or Draft page you started, "Vision Technologies".

In accordance with our policy that Wikipedia is not for the indefinite hosting of material deemed unsuitable for the encyclopedia mainspace, the draft has been deleted. When you plan on working on it further and you wish to retrieve it, you can request its undeletion. An administrator will, in most cases, restore the submission so you can continue to work on it.

Thanks for your submission to Wikipedia, and happy editing. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 22:34, 8 June 2023 (UTC)

Unblock request

This user's unblock request has been reviewed by an administrator, who declined the request. Other administrators may also review this block, but should not override the decision without good reason (see the blocking policy).

Sutyarashi (block log • active blocks • global blocks • contribs • deleted contribs • filter log • creation log • change block settings • unblock • checkuser (log))

---

Request reason:

Caught by an open proxy block but this host or IP is not an open proxy. My IP address is ___39.41.238.50____. Sutyarashi (talk) 15:38, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

Decline reason:

Since you can edit from other IPs as your account is not directly blocked, I am procedurally declining this request. It's difficult to get these blocks lifted as a practical matter; I would instead recommend you go to WP:IPECPROXY and follow those instructions to request IP block exemption so this won't be a problem. — Daniel Case (talk) 06:38, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

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If you want to make any further unblock requests, please read the guide to appealing blocks first, then use the {{unblock}} template again. If you make too many unconvincing or disruptive unblock requests, you may be prevented from editing this page until your block has expired. Do not remove this unblock review while you are blocked.

Sutyarashi (talk) 15:38, 15 June 2023 (UTC)

Let the block expire. It's over in less than 4 days. The IP address has been confirmed rightly or wrongly, as using VPN. ~Anachronist (talk) 00:52, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

@Anachronist: If you would look at the full block log for that IP you'd see that the block has regularly been reimposed. Hence the solution I have suggested to him, like so many others in this situation. Daniel Case (talk) 06:38, 16 June 2023 (UTC)

Disambiguation link notification for June 25

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Hello

You made revisions on the article of Arain, whereas it is written on the article that Arain are originally from Sindh who moved to punjab, so if according to you khokhars are native of punjab, then why can't Arain be native of Sindh? The fact that they still live in Sindh and speak sindhi as their first language. So stop reverting my edits. AngelicDevil29 (talk) 21:20, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

@AngelicDevil29 provide reliable sources stating Arains to be Sindhis. Origins matter little because humans can migrate from one place to other. Kalhoras, for example, are from Arabia. Does it mean that they are Arabs too? Sutyarashi (talk) 06:18, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

the source is the Arain article itself which clearly mentions "The historian and political scientist Christophe Jaffrelot believes that the Arain are displaced farming communities who moved to Punjab from Sindh and Multan as Arab Muslim armies encroached" now origin does matter, when such people still live in their native place, how can you not count them? Don't be biased, also how come in the case if khokhars origins matters but in Arain it doesn't, how? And for your kind info Kalhoras are not from Arabia, they are jats read the page again which mentions Kalhora to be of jats, as it was and is a trend for local people to be associated with arabs specially the kings and rulers. AngelicDevil29 (talk) 17:07, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

@AngelicDevil29 provide references stating Arains to be Sindhis. Your talk page has multiple messages regarding that you should avoid unsourced claims, so you need to act on them. Sutyarashi (talk) 17:32, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

And if Kalhoras are actually from Arabia and some people of Kalhoras still live in arabia then of course they would be arabs. AngelicDevil29 (talk) 17:09, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Don't make changes

You keep on making unnecessary changes on langah and dodai, first you have issues with citations now you have issue with one word being written in first than other, you are funny. AngelicDevil29 (talk) 14:29, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

@AngelicDevil29 I have left message on your talk page. Read it so you can understand why your edits are disruptive. Sutyarashi (talk) 14:32, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

you have your own rules, which I don't follow your so biased Tiggered person, is there any way to talk someone educated unbiased person regarding these two articles, I mean are you serious? Why you are hurting by having a sindhi name first than punjabi? 🤷🏻‍♂️ second the dodais tribes is by doda sumra, and sumras are sindhi, but I'm not mentioning dodais as sindhi they are merely branch of sumra as they are his descendants, and there are many baloch and punjabi tribes which have origins in sindh or are jats And are still living in Sindh, Dodai maybe assimilated into balochs in south Punjab but in Sindh they are not and there many sindhi hindu dodais living in India as well. AngelicDevil29 (talk) 14:40, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

and apparently I seems you only believe in sources written by a person who is from Pakistan and India. Which makes difficult to find many citations . AngelicDevil29 (talk) 14:43, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

.

Is the book "the Musalman races found in Sind, balochistan and afghanistan" by sheikh sadiq a British raj book? AngelicDevil29 (talk) 16:19, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

@AngelicDevil29 yes, because not only it is outdated by a big margin (more than a century) it also depends on British surveys, all of which make it unreliable. So please revert your all additions on all pages which you have edited with such sources. Sutyarashi (talk) 16:26, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

then there are not many sources out there and what's wrong with mentioning a century old book, I guess it must be better as it gives much earlier knowledge of the topic. AngelicDevil29 (talk) 16:30, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Ogahi

you made changes on ogahi page, the citations mentioned non of them support the content. On what basis you made changes? AngelicDevil29 (talk) 18:23, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

also sane goes for lund you must provide any other strong sources until that you must revert these two articles to last revision. AngelicDevil29 (talk) 18:28, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

@AngelicDevil29 I request you to revert yourself at Langah (clan). Think it as your final warning, otherwise after this it will definitely go to Administrators' noticeboard. Sutyarashi (talk) 18:33, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

why? You first accepted the citation then later now you are not accepting it? Don't be biased, Wikipedia is not only for certain group of people, giving half information is not good. AngelicDevil29 (talk) 18:36, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

@AngelicDevil29 I thought that this was a recent study. But it is again based upon Raj era survey. So this is automatically makes it unreliable and hence should be removed. It's not about accepting or not accepting, I'm afraid, your this behaviour and refusal to accept WP policies is clearly WP:NOTHERE. Sutyarashi (talk) 18:39, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

I have checked it where is it written on the citation? I dont find it to be based of Britain raj. AngelicDevil29 (talk) 18:41, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

@AngelicDevil29 read again on the bottom of page 6

. Sutyarashi (talk) 18:44, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

And reply me about the changes you made on ogahi and lund pages, as the citations i mentioned there are not of British raj, neither they are too old. AngelicDevil29 (talk) 18:39, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

@AngelicDevil29 Add any recent academic source mentioning them as Sindhis and not just as living in Sindh, and I will not remove it. Sutyarashi (talk) 18:40, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

I will first you do the same mentioning langah to be punjabis living in Punjab? As the citations I have read non of them talk about them being Punjabis. AngelicDevil29 (talk) 18:43, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

@AngelicDevil29 all current sources mention them to be living in Punjab. As for being Punjabis, the reference is just next to it in the article. Sutyarashi (talk) 18:45, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Population by Geographical Levels: Punjab (including the Federal Capital Territory Islamabad) doesn't say they are punjabis, it only shows total langah. AngelicDevil29 (talk) 18:48, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

so you must also write a rajput tribe living in punjab, don't make them punjabis, as the sources either mention them as afghans or sindhis, your content written is absolutely wrong and incorrect, I wonder how Wikipedia is letting you do this. AngelicDevil29 (talk) 18:50, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

It does, on page 73. Sutyarashi (talk) 18:52, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Asking for citation.

"Shadows of My Memories AngelicDevil29 (talk) 21:49, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

"Shadows of My Memories

By Riffat Chaudhry · 2014" is this book is good to cite on a page? AngelicDevil29 (talk) 21:50, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

@AngelicDevil29 It seems to be a memoir, and not history. Also Riffat Chaudhary is not any established historian; I am unable to find anything about the author's professional career. So it can not be used as an academic cite.

A good start to find which sources are reliable can be found on wikipedia's guidelines about reliable sources. Sutyarashi (talk) 23:26, 28 June 2023 (UTC)

Asking for citation

Is this citation, ok or is it also of raj (Census of India, 1911 Volume 7)? AngelicDevil29 (talk) 00:20, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Also this citation "https://sites.google.com/view/sindhstory/sindhi-society-and-culture" is this OK to be mentioned in any article? AngelicDevil29 (talk) 00:40, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

First one is definitely a colonial source and second also seems highly unreliable, since it claims that Phoenicians of Syria originated from Sindhis, a claim which has no proof, in addition to other inconsistencies. Online websites are not a great source for history, you should search for academic scholarship. Sutyarashi (talk) 02:33, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

Gurchani

Despite sources not being Raj-era, why are you repeatedly removing text from Gurchani citing the same in edit summary? If there are other issues, enlighten me. Thanks. Krayon95 (talk) 17:00, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

@Krayon95 I didn't realize that you have replaced the references. Anyways, still the section is irrelevant to the article as it describes origins of Dodai tribe, not Gurchani. It has probably been copied from the main article on Dodai itself. Moreover, the section also does not make any mention of Gurchani, so it makes little sense to keep it. Sutyarashi (talk) 17:31, 29 June 2023 (UTC)

@Sutyarashi. The Gurchani article has been created by me and it would have been clear who copied from whom if there was attribution on Dodai article as the wiki requires. All the sources are valid and it pertains both to Gurchani and Dodai as its clear from the section. Do not misuse the revert function, you have no valid argument to do so. Krayon95 (talk) 05:45, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

@Krayon95 Even if you created the article, you don't own it. The section nowhere mentions the Gurchani, I wonder why you want to keep it? You have also not given any convincing reason for it. Sutyarashi (talk) 05:58, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

@Sutyarashi. How do you mean 'section nowhere mentions the Gurchani'? It certainly does. It literally describes their origin legend and formation of Dodai and Gurchani section among Baloch. Krayon95 (talk) 06:14, 30 June 2023 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of File:Makran_coastal_highway_along_Arabian_sea.jpeg

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@Whpq the Independent Urdu clearly mentions the image to be in Public Domain. So it is clearly not any copyright infringement. Sutyarashi (talk) 11:13, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, I missed that note on the side. I've removed the speedy deletion. -- Whpq (talk) 11:20, 1 July 2023 (UTC)

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Gibaris and Dards are different

The article you citated is about old dards of Swat. At that time Swat was Known as Udyana which later changed. However Dards are mentioned Swatis in this article on the name of region. It don't have any connection to Gibari Rulers of Swat. They were descendants of Sultan Kehjaman Balkh according to their family traditions. CiteGuardian (talk) 18:40, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

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August 2023

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you.Lavalizard101 (talk) 17:47, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

It was started by an obvious sock puppet but I thought you should be aware at least. Lavalizard101 (talk) 17:55, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

Islam in Pakistan

Hi Sutyarashi, I am just letting you know that I have reverted your latest revert on Islam in Pakistan. The content added by Derry87 has reliable sources backing it. Jeraxmoira (talk) 13:09, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Not about references, but the content added is indeed an issue: Shias of Pakistan have been particularly targeted and killed by machine guns and suicide bombers. In Pakistan, the environment in which minorities find themselves is characterized by an increase in hate speech, invocation of blasphemy laws, and brutal attacks on worshipers and holy places. Is. Pakistan is an Islamic country. However, now, not only non-Muslims but also sub-sects like Sufi, Ahmadi and Shia are being harmed

Couldn't find anything supporting these lines. The references are about general intolerance and one particular incident of sectarian violence, which has been already covered in the section. Seems like borderline POV pushing. Sutyarashi (talk) 13:20, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

Missed that completely, my bad. Jeraxmoira (talk) 13:30, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

OK, no problem. Sutyarashi (talk) 13:33, 29 September 2023 (UTC)

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A barnstar for you!

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POV pusher

Almost every edit of this user is a POV push. Please do the needful changes. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 12:21, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

Request for improvements

I request you to improve Swati tribe page with the referenced content like other tribes of Pakistan have. I shall be very thankful to you. Keep the Dardic thing as same but It's my humble request to make it more amazing to read. You can add data from the history of that page, when it used to be full of information. Thank you 206.84.144.32 (talk) 18:18, 27 November 2023 (UTC)

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Genetic Evidence

Please leave making people Dards without proper genetic evidence. British aren't Scholars for you and so are Iranian and other classical sources so let's have a heart for genetics and Dental Morphology. Secondly Dards weren't Muslims at times of Sultanate of Swat, hope you Understand what Sultan is unless you are with Pashtun facisim. Azmarai76 (talk) 13:56, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

@Azmarai76 please just cite reliable sources to support your claims. This is not a matter of "just leaving", Wikipedia does not works in this way. Sutyarashi (talk) 14:42, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

I had but I guess without even knowing who Dards are or even if they are one Society you deleted even the link to Genetic Study conducted by Tariq and Habib. None is a British servant like you said about Raverty and others. If we go by your standards we would have no mention of Dards while Swatis still have mentions. You have any idea why are these groups different genetically? AND I didn't see any reason for you to delete those references.

Azmarai76 (talk) 14:52, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

please do answer how only one dardic thing makes Dehgans Dards, despite the fact two population group are different. Give Reliable genetic evidence to your claim. That's all I am asking for.

Azmarai76 (talk) 14:56, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

WP:ONUS is upon you to prove your claims, not on me. References stating Swatis to be Dardic are already there; it's upon you to provide sources stating them to be not. Sutyarashi (talk) 15:26, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Well did it and you removed calling Raverty a "British servant" and Tabqat I Nasiri as primary sources. You still couldn't tell me why you removed the link to Genetic study by Tariq & Habib???

Azmarai76 (talk) 15:45, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Because these are not reliable sources. Raverty is WP:RAJ, while Tabaqat Nasiri is WP:PRIMARY. Cite any better source. Sutyarashi (talk) 02:45, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

I had and you removed them. I am putting in unreliable sources to it and you are removing them also. Your sources are unreliable too.

Azmarai76 (talk) 03:06, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Please point out which of the present sources is not reliable, I will remove them. Also, none of the sources you added was WP:RS. Sutyarashi (talk) 03:09, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Sutyarashi my friend I respect you please do read what I am writing I see you have little knowledge of Dards. They would call Swat Udhiyana in their times. Few Kapisa Dards must be calling themselves Tajiks but not all Tajiks are Dards.

Azmarai76 (talk) 04:32, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

What's the need to add 'Maratha failed to invade Bengal' when it was a stalemate?

Come and discuss the topic 103.52.208.101 (talk) 05:57, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

I've rephrased it. To avoid your edits being reverted in future, I would suggest you to create an account. Sutyarashi (talk) 08:53, 1 December 2023 (UTC)

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Unreliable source and pov in an article

Hi there Sutyarashi I see you have dealt with this topic before I found this edit by this user quite interesting [4] its an Indian user who is using a very questionable source for a pov edit I went to the website and its using quotes from Wikipedia itself as a source! its one of those Indian disinformation websites with extremely unreliable information and only serves one purpose of misinformation how do these dubious sources and edits make it onto articles? Kuma-is-my-name (talk) 18:07, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

Asian Lite is quoting information from an earlier wikipedia version of Bacha Bazi from 2021 as evidence and the author is god knows who quite simply disinformation as expected from that nation Kuma-is-my-name (talk) 18:18, 30 December 2023 (UTC)

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Omani Baloch

Hello I noticed you reverted my edits to previous version in Omani Baloch, If you notice in the sentence of of page content, the term of mercenary is not appropriate at all and it's considered as insult to a ethnic. I'd like to request to modify this term to a appropriate word. Regards. Balash-Vologases (talk) 18:18, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Mercenary: a private individual who joins an armed conflict for personal profit, is otherwise an outsider to the conflict, and is not a member of any other official military. That's what sources cited in the article state; this is not an insult and not a reason for its removal. As per sources, Baloch did indeed fought for Oman as mercenaries in exchange of money. Sutyarashi (talk) 18:59, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Thank for clarification, anyway i translated it in persian and wait to approval by managers in persian section. Balash-Vologases (talk) 19:08, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

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March 2024

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Sistan. This means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be although other editors disagree. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus, rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement.

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2. Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.

If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes and work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing. Nagol0929 (talk) 11:59, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

Nagol0929 take a closer look at the matter. The IPs vandalising the page have been blocked already. Reverting blunt vandalism is by no mean edit warring and so there was no reason for you to leave this warning here. Sutyarashi (talk) 13:50, 12 March 2024 (UTC)

About WP:3O

@Sutyarashi, @Sir Calculus

I am coming from WP:3O about active Active disagreement at Talk:Bhatti#Reliability of source.

• I am replying at user talk page who placed WP:3O request believing user talk page guidance may help calm down and help focus on specific content issues

1) First thing first, this is CTOP area. I am not going into merit who is right who is wrong. The best practice for everyone is to take steps back from any personal accusations at article talk pages and strike down any such pointed out sentences is strongly emphasized.

2) I advice both the users to provide synopsis to facilitate easier understanding of third opinion / input provider.

3) Prima facie Richard V. Weekes was an editor of relevant academic background but may be of earlier generation hence I suggest to check any updated reliable academic sources.

I am not much interested in ethnicity conflicts so unlikely go much further to remain involved. Still I hope above tips would help both the users to focus on content hereafter, that would help other well meaning users provide relevant inputs. Wish you happy editing to both of you. Bookku (talk) 12:49, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Hi! Thank you for your advice.

I do not have issues with the article. I included the Weekes ref to support the text regarding the Sindhi Bhattis as they're common and deserve a mention. I myself am a Sindhi so I know Sindhi Bhattis personally. But that of course can't be used as a ref. A notable Sindhi Bhatti is Rasheed Bhatti, there exists a PhD thesis on him as well, if that makes a difference. There's also a local article on him.

My edit was as simple as including "Sindhi" and adding an academic ref to support it. I did not remove existing information from the article. I can add another recent ref but it is in Sindhi language, so it is better that an English language Weekes ref is used because it exists. The review in Modern Asian Studies also makes it more suitable to use. I do not want endless arguments with the other user. Cheers. Sir Calculus (talk) 13:20, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Chiming in also from the 3O listing - I strongly agree with Bookku that lowering the temperature is necessary here. If there are so few reliable sources speaking to the claims in question that the debate hinges on the reliability of a single source, consider including the claims with attribution, and noting any other RS that disagrees. If the source is seriously questionable (maybe WP:RSN can help), I think that weighs in favor of excluding the claim until it's easier to verify. I think it is going to be very difficult for a non-expert to actually weigh in on the merits of either side here. StereoFolic (talk) 17:19, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Thank you Bookku and StereoFolic for providing your opinion. Caste-related topics are not prime area of my interest and expertise so for now I'm going to leave this issue as it is. Like I stated at article talk page before, if the reliability and relevancy of the source is established, I have no objections over its use. As for unhelpful comments there, I believe they can be removed. Sutyarashi (talk) 16:36, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

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Potential pov and sourceless claims

Sutyarashi How goes it I came across this edit by account Shinwari [5] These additions do not mention Pakistan and they did not add references for it either seems like a point of view of editor rather than facts even the sources present only mention Afghanistan specifically in the lead might be worth checking it out. MiaKrishLingum (talk) 19:49, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

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Discussion

Hello @Sutyarashi, I wanted to discuss your vote in the RfC. I thought it might be better to discuss it here rather than in the RfC which might make it less streamlined. The Mughals themselves did not actually culturally Persianize, the Turco-Mongol Timurids had become culturally Persianized and thus their branch the Mughals also had Persian elements in their culture, but the dynasty became more and more culturally Indian, and less Persian because of this. From an ethnic point of view, the first Mughal emperor, i.e, Babur was a Turco-Mongol, and spoke the Chagatai Turk. His son was half-Persian and also spoke Chagatai. Akbar had a mostly Persian ancestry (75%) and spoke the Persian language and didn't know Chagatai Turk. However, his culture became more and more Indian. His son Jahangir was half Indian, and his grandson Shah Jahan was mostly Indian, and from them onwards the dynasty had a mostly Indian ancestry, albeit a very small number of emperors who were half-Persian and half-Indian. Aurangzeb onwards all emperors spoke the Hindustani language. Thus from all points of views, the entire dynasty except the first two emperors were Indian/Indianized, in ancestry, in language and in culture (again, with some Persian elements earlier, but more Indian). Besides, most sources call the dynasty Indian, with Turco-Mongol origin. PadFoot (talk) 12:45, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

The Mughals themselves did not actually culturally Persianize, the Turco-Mongol Timurids had become culturally Persianized and thus their branch the Mughals also had Persian elements in their culture, but the dynasty became more and more culturally Indian, and less Persian because of this.

Sorry, but you need to see articles on Mughal cuisine, Mughal architecture, Mughal art and Mughal clothing: all of these had visible Persian influence until the very end. Mughals spoke Persian as their primary court language till their demise in 1857. Until the reign of Aurangzeb, less than 30% administration was Indian, rest was Turkish and Iranian. Mughals were definitely a Persianate dynasty.

From an ethnic point of view, the first Mughal emperor, i.e, Babur was a Turco-Mongol, and spoke the Chagatai Turk. His son was half-Persian and also spoke Chagatai. Akbar had a mostly Persian ancestry (75%) and spoke the Persian language and didn't know Chagatai Turk. However, his culture became more and more Indian. His son Jahangir was half Indian, and his grandson Shah Jahan was mostly Indian, and from them onwards the dynasty had a mostly Indian ancestry, albeit a very small number of emperors who were half-Persian and half-Indian.

Seems to be borderline original research. You should remember that paternal descent was what mattered at all to the royalty of past, and Mughals used to called themselves Timurids, not Indian.

Aurangzeb onwards all emperors spoke the Hindustani language.

Reference for it?

Thus from all points of views, the entire dynasty except the first two emperors were Indian/Indianized, in ancestry, in language and in culture (again, with some Persian elements earlier, but more Indian). Besides, most sources call the dynasty Indian, with Turco-Mongol origin.

Again, looks like OR. You are downplaying the Persian influence the Mughals had.

Now, I'm not denying that Mughal dynasty had Indian cultural influences; they ruled in India for around three centuries after all. However, the culture they followed was Indo-Persian or Ganga-Jamuni Tehzeeb, having both Persian and Indian elements. Even Mughal culture redirects to Indo-Persian culture. Labelling the whole dynasty as Indian/Indianized is even more wrong than saying it a Persian/Persianized dynasty. I believe my proposed lede has better merit. Otherwise I'm inclined to status quo. Sutyarashi (talk) 17:43, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

Hello @Sutyarashi, I agree with some of the points you mentioned above. Initially when I had opened the RfC, I had indeed listed a third option with two constructs, very similar to yours but had later removed just before the start of the RfC. They are as follows:

First construct:

The Mughal dynasty was an Indo-Persian dynaty of Turco-Mongol origin that ruled over the Mughal Empire from 1526 to 1857.

Second construct:

The Mughal dynasty was an Indo-Persian dynasty that ruled over the Mughal Empire from 1526 to 1857. It originated as a branch of the Turco-Mongol Timurid dynasty.

The constructs above are somewhat smaller and more refined. PadFoot (talk) 14:59, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Yes, first version seems good, although I'd suggest that it be rephrased as Culturally Indo-Persian to avoid ambiguity with ethnicity. Sutyarashi (talk) 19:36, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

Also, please discuss my !vote at RfC further at the talk page. Otherwise this maybe seen as WP: CANVASSING. Sutyarashi (talk) 18:08, 16 July 2024 (UTC)

References

Hazarewal

@Sutyarashi on this page[6][7] for the verification of Caste/tribe/ethnic groups WP:RAJ[8] era sources are used those are forbidden to use for the caste/tribe/ethnic group or history related topics in Afghanistan, India and Pakistan one other reference used from KPK government's website that also not mentioned all tribes/ethnic groups unbiasedly this government site is biased and the text added by a user on Hazarewal page is not about what on the website is mention.103.249.115.102 (talk) 19:31, 17 July 2024 (UTC)

I have removed Raj-era sources; but what is the problem with the kpk website? Sutyarashi (talk) 15:24, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

Because on this KPK government site only these tribes mentioned

Major Linguistic/Ethnic Groups:

• Hindkowans (predominantly in Haripur, Abbottabad & some parts of Mansehra districts).
• Pashtuns (Torghar, Mansehra, Battagram & Trans-river Kohistan).
• Kohistanis (in all three districts of Kohistan except trans-river Kohistan.

But text added by a user is as follow majority of the inhabitants belong to Dardic tribes (Yashkuns, Mankiyalis, Shinkari, Rajkoti, Chilis, Gabara and Marooch), alongside communities of Awans, Gujjars, Tanoli, Mashwanis, Karlals, Dhund and Pashtun tribes (Durrani, Tareen, Yousafzai, Dilazak, Jadoon, Swati, Khattak) who migrated to the area. small tribes of Dardic speaking or pashtuns? I think not relevant here & only Pashtun Dardic tribes these words seems okay.? Also I catch up one more problem here this page have very long list of notables and this long list is categorized into Swati, Jadoon, Tareen, Yousafzai Pashtun tribes (looks POV pushing) mostly but without any sources this list isn't already present at List of Hazarewals or this list should be removed from this article to merge into List of Hazarewals where this list is already mentioned in more depth.?103.249.115.102 (talk) 20:15, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

You are right, the KP websites don't mention the tribes listed. I have removed them, as well as redirected the list of notables to the main article. Sutyarashi (talk) 12:06, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

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Mughal dynasty vote

Hello there @Sutyarashi, I pinged you on the Mughal dynasty talk page because I wanted discuss your vote. I don’t mind your proposal at all, but I think we could perhaps discuss adding that after the rfc is over on the Mughal page. What I mean is, I think you should change your vote to option 2 in the mean time to equalize the numbers. I don’t believe your proposal would go through if option 1 ends up being picked, because at that point there would be a new consensus that contradicts your idea. But with no consensus or option 2 being picked, we could discuss making new changes afterwards.

We both agree on the fundamental point that the Mughals had significant Persian influences, so referring to them as “indianized” leaves out the nuanced multi cultural nature of the dynasty. Unfortunately, option 3 was never part of the rfc so it’s not currently going to gain any traction. That’s why I think changing your vote makes the most sense for now. Afterwards, another discussion can separately commence regarding your proposal.

But that’s just my thoughts. You free to keep your vote as is.

I don’t even think an equal number of votes is necessary for there to be “no consensus” or option 2 getting picked. Because ultimately they haven’t really responded to any of these crucial points and hopefully whoever closes the RFC can see that. I’m just asking this from you in case I'm wrong.

Also to avoid canvassing we can bring this to the talk page of the Mughal dynasty, I just wanted to give you a heads up because the rfc may close soon and thought this would be the fastest way to get your attention. Someguywhosbored (talk) 07:16, 7 August 2024 (UTC)

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Afarin Lahori moved to draftspace

Thanks for your contributions to Afarin Lahori. Unfortunately, I do not think it is ready for publishing at this time because it needs more sources to establish notability. I have converted your article to a draft which you can improve, undisturbed for a while.

Please see more information at Help:Unreviewed new page. When the article is ready for publication, please click on the "Submit your draft for review!" button at the top of the page OR move the page back. — Saqib (talk I contribs) 16:17, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

Sujan Rai Bhandari moved to draftspace

Thanks for your contributions to Sujan Rai Bhandari. Unfortunately, I do not think it is ready for publishing at this time because it needs more sources to establish notability. I have converted your article to a draft which you can improve, undisturbed for a while.

Please see more information at Help:Unreviewed new page. When the article is ready for publication, please click on the "Submit your draft for review!" button at the top of the page OR move the page back. — Saqib (talk I contribs) 16:18, 26 August 2024 (UTC)

@Saqib I don't agree with draftification of this article. Both of the sources cited are academic and RS, and deal solely with the subject, enough to establish its notability. If you measure notability by the number of references cited then I can provide more, but adding one liner references seems unnecessary.

I will move Sujan Rai Bhandari back while will add more to Afarīn Lahori. Sutyarashi (talk) 01:59, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

Okay, I can see you moved it back to the main NS, but you don’t need to remove the notability tags, please! — Saqib (talk I contribs) 05:46, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

@Saqib this article meets all requirements of GNG! On what basis you think it is not notable? Sutyarashi (talk) 07:39, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

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Gabaris and Dards are different

Can you proof with a single contemporary source that Gabaris are Dards? Prince of Allai State (talk) 12:22, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

You're just another sock of GibariSultan and I'm not interested in wasting any time over you. Will file an SPI within a moment. Sutyarashi (talk) 12:34, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

you are just a paid editor who is working on Dardistan project. You are also involved in Discord server related to Dardistan project. Soon, you all will be exposed Prince of Allai State (talk) 12:46, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Wish someone actually paid me for the time I spend on WP :(  – Sutyarashi (talk) 12:50, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Sutyarashi is not a member of The Dardistan Project yet, however I shall formally invite them tonight. Sutyarashi, feel free to email me using my Wikipedia page and I can get you connected with our team. No one gets paid, but we do a lot of fulfilling research into the region's genetics, languages, cultures, and histories. We appreciate your contributions to ensuring accuracy on Wikipedia through relevant sources. Paristani (talk) 04:53, 19 September 2024 (UTC)

Bro, You are already getting paid as you remain online whole day as a guardian of Dardistan Project launched by few Pakistanis and Kashmiris few years ago. You guys will not get anything in the end. Prince of Allai State (talk) 12:57, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Propaganda

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Prince of Allai State (talk) 12:49, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

Classic example of WP:BOOMERANG. Thanks for notifying, nevertheless. Sutyarashi (talk) 12:51, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

When don't worry, I trust Wikipedia and I am sure they will stop you from editing Swati tribe pages as you are totally biased and POV pusher, nothing else. If any of Wikipedia admin checks the references which you removed to push your Pov, Obviously they will block you. Prince of Allai State (talk) 12:55, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

To this day, Only you pushed your Pov and blocked others but now It's time to have inquiry on you as well. Let's see ! The your propaganda will get fail or successful. Leaving rest at God and Wikipedia admins. Take care Prince of Allai State (talk) 12:59, 17 September 2024 (UTC)

About the citations in Afarin Lahori

Hey Sutyarashi! Thanks for creating this article. I wanted to let you know that I cleaned a couple of harv errors in the citations, which occur when the {{sfn}} template doesn't link correctly to its target source in the references list. You can use this script to help you catch them in the future. Let me know if you have any questions! —TechnoSquirrel69 (sigh) 01:14, 18 September 2024 (UTC)

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October 2024

Concerning the article about the Kabul river, I'm editing the page to add the name of the river in Dari, which is the official language of Afghanistan along with Pashto. Therefore it is important. So understand that you don't own this article, you're not the only one who knows about this topic. Be respectful, don't be disruptive to the improvement of Wikipedia articles, personal agendas and politics are not welcome, only relevant, important and reliable information is to be included. I'm being respectful to you and also in agreement with Wikipedia policies. There has to be an agreement, so be considerate and understanding. Thank you. Leopardus62 (talk) 03:39, 12 October 2024 (UTC)

A barnstar for you!

	The Writer's Barnstar
	For your scholarly contributions on Wikipedia especially in the fields of history and Pakistani ethnic groups...Best of luck in future also... Ngrewal1 (talk) 21:31, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

Have a look

Hi, since you've edited this page, I want to have a look at these changes [9] [10] which seem like a POV push and sock activity. They have been doing similar in other articles [11]. I've opened a case here. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 11:09, 15 October 2024 (UTC)

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