Talk:Tempranillo

Old discussion

• Does anyone know about the history of this wine? Charleenmerced ^Talk 18:03, 24 March 2007 (UTC)Charleenmerced
  • I'll look into it :) mikaul 13:24, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
• Is the use of the name 'Valdepanes' correct? There's much more reference to 'Valdepenas' on Google, derived I imagine, from the Spanish DO Valdepeñas. Which brings me to the quest for a history section: there's not a lot of info I can properly cite (mostly original research) - I'm still persevering but don't expect much, maybe a short para or two. mikaul 10:31, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

Photos

I'm 95% sure these are Tempranillo vines; I was told that's what they were and the leaves look about right. mikaul 13:19, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Moved it down to make way for grapes :) mikaul 10:31, 28 March 2007 (UTC)

The other pic I found wasn't Tempranillo :( however I'll take a shot of a varietal wine in the glass to make up for it :) mikaul 10:03, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

I've added the promised varietal wine shot and a shot of the label, which I don't think is too "samey" or commercial, but if anyone thinks otherwise I can probably find an alternative with the Ull de Llebre name. mikaul 21:50, 2 April 2007 (UTC)

• Just as an impromtu tasting note, this was a very nice wine - big, ripe & juicy plums, long, long legs... and less than $2.50 a bottle. Man, I love living here :) mikaul 21:53, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
• Charleen, that's the pic I was on about which isn't Tempranillo, or at least I'm fairly sure it isnt. The same pic is also used to illustrate Bobal - a much chunkier bunch - probably posted up by the same lazy editor. I'm going to go through the es wine pages because this sort of mis-named pic thing is really common there. If you compare the two grape pics we have here the real Tepmranillo is the one with long and slender bunch. I'm not even sure if that pic is what it says it is, as Ripatella is an obscure Austrian hybrid variety (aka Rebsorte) which I can't find any pictoral reference for. I'd happily stand corrected if you can verify it, but right now the evidence is weighed against it being Tempranillo. mikaul^talk 13:15, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
• I guess you are right, I could not find anything that was in a language I could understand. I removed the pic.--Charleenmerced ^Talk 20:02, 4 April 2007 (UTC)Charleenmerced

History

The long-promised section is ready! I'll post it up but I'd appreciate eyes over it - is it too long? How do we illustrate it? etc, etc... mikaul 11:53, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

• Hello Mick, thanks for this section! It was really needed. Do you have the sources for the first part (the ancient history part?). Also, I did a little copyedit to fix some typos, simplify some sentences and change some things that were a littl NPOV. I am planning to do a second run-through to make sure each of the article's section complement each other well and there is not a lot of repetition. I think that pretty soon we can make this a GA article! Good job! --Charleenmerced ^Talk 12:48, 29 March 2007 (UTC)Charleenmerced
  • Hi Charleen, nice edits! I've some refs I've not cited yet, yes. Most of the second para is from the source cited after the quote. I've found another pic, more info etc - I'll sort these things out a bit later. Still needs a copyedit and probably rejigging to fit with the grape template, don't you think? I agree though, it's starting to look like a proper article! mikaul 13:22, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
• Hey, I'll do the second copyedit after you add the other info. --Charleenmerced ^Talk 17:18, 31 March 2007 (UTC)Charleenmerced
  • I just saw your message now - I think it's almost there. I've checked it over but it'd be great if you could do a final edit. The names really belonged in the description and I've added some more (from the es: page) although I'm not sure it's formatted as well as it could be. The first bit of the history section really bugged me and I've edited most of it out. Tomorrow I'll open this varietal (a real cheap one; lets see how it is!) and post up a pic, which I think ought finish it. mikaul 00:08, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

Just a thought - the end of the History section used to read "..this most Spanish of grapes" - I wouldn't insist it read that way, but it does look a little odd just reading "this Spanish grape". What about cutting this bit out? mikaul 00:18, 1 April 2007 (UTC)

I've heard anecdotal evidence that consumption of Tempranillo wines produces hightened or enhanced dream activity. Does anybody have a source that verifies this or can be added to this wiki? --220.157.72.93 16:29, 11 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't believe the statement "Spanish cultivation of Vitis vinifera, the common ancestor of almost all vines in existence today" is correct. Vitis vinifera http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitis_vinifera is the dominant ancestor of most cultivated wine grape vines, but with my limited understanding, I think it falls well short of "almost all vines in existence today". There are plenty of examples if cultivated grape vines in existence today with lineage devoid of vitis vinifera: vitis riparia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitis_riparia vitis labrusca http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitis_labrusca vitis rotundifolia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscadine vitis californica http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitis_californica vitis aestivalis http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitis_aestivalis User: KarlWesterman, October 6, 2009

Promoting to GA status

I've read the article and I think it meets all of the six criteria of good articles. The number of references is commendable. I liked the detailed history section, and I also liked how the article, although about a Spanish grape, explains its use in many different countries outside of Spain. I think with time you might want to expand the article to include a list of major vinyards (or maybe there are too many to make a list?), and maybe some additional discussion of the popularity of the wine (maybe some statistics about rankings or sales). Also there is a bulleted reference at the end of the numbered inline citations--I wasn't sure why this was there and not entered somewhere as an inline citation. Overall, a good job by the editors of this article. Biomedeng 02:15, 6 April 2007 (UTC)

Great work!

I have to say that this article is one of the best in the project. Tremendous work and kudos to all. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 11:12, 7 April 2007 (UTC)

Tempranillo and heat

In light of User:216.161.3.148 recent edits, I have compiled a list of some addition reliable sources with their views. I think the crux of the matter is the lack of clarity between what "cool" and "hot" mean in a warm climate region like Spain versus what those terms mean in a cooler climate like Germany. The phrase "cool" is certainly not used in the same context with a cool vineyard site in the Ribera del Deuro would undoubtedly be considered warm if it is was in the Mosel. Nonetheless, it may be beneficial to clear up that distinction. If the anon IP or any other editor wishes to use them for edits to the article, feel free. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 03:20, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

• "The variety is ideally situated to the cool conditions of the Ribera del Duero..." <ref> J. Robinson (ed) ''"The Oxford Companion to Wine"'' Third Edition pg 670 Oxford University Press 2006 ISBN 0198609906 </ref>
• "To get elegance and acidity out of Tempranillo, you need a cool climate. But to get high sugar levels and the thick skins that give deep color you need heat. In Spain these two opposites are best reconciled in the continental climate but high altitude of the Ribera del Deuro.<ref> Oz Clarke ''Encyclopedia of Grapes'' pg 272 Harcourt Books 2001 ISBN 0151007144 </ref>
• Update While I appreciate the anon IP attempt to add reliable sources, I think his/her edits still fell into the same trap of vagueness between "warm"/"cool" etc. I went ahead and added the direct quote from the Oz Clarke book (I think very solid and reliable source) which should solve matter. It makes clear that the grape needs cool and heat and points to the unique climatology of the "cool" vineyard sites of the Ribera del Deuro, which is for all practical purposes a "warm region". Hopefully this will suffice. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 03:58, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

To clarify the heat/cool aspect, perhaps some numbers would help, ie XºC. I'm afraid I don't have data at hand though.

I can also say that I've been producing Tempranillo for 4 years now and have had no problem with the heat. The vineyard is in Madrid region (administratively speaking) and has the typical continemtal climate of Castille La Mancha, ie very hot long dry summers (peak temperatures of around 40ºC!!!) and cold winters (minimums of around 0ºC). This year I got a good harvest, same as last year's, even though the climate was very different (this year much colder), both quality-wise and quantity-wise.

If we look at where Tempranillo is grown, it can be seen that it is most popular in the North and Central Spain, especially Rioja where the percentage of Tempranillo produced has been increasing for years (to the detriment of other varieties). It doesn't seem to be so popular in the South (Andalusia) where it is hotter. So I suppose it does like a "cooler" more humid climate, where "cooler" means cooler than 40ºC, ie 30-35ºC which is of course still pretty hot for say France or Germany!!!

On the other hand, my harvest of Airén this year was very bad. It was badly affected by oidium and I harvested less than 50% of last year's quantity! And Airén is an autoctonous variety perfectly adapted to the climate!!!!!--BodegasAmbite 10:06, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

The terminology is a problem. I objected to the original IP edit as it seemed to run contrary to the many refs we already had [1],[2] [3] which support the notion that a "cool" climate is preferred and a "hot, dry" one problematic. In Spain, as anywhere, you don't find many red varietals in high-altitude vineyards; Tempranillo is the exception, hence its cool-climate preference is notable.
Bearing in mind the Spanish idea of "cool" is nearer "cool oven" than "cool larder", tempy growers here speak of a fuego y hielo ("fire and ice") approach to producing the best single varietal tempranillos; baking hot days and chilly nights. You get this up in the hills, especially inland ranges. Sure, the grape develops ok at lower altitudes but it needs an acidic blending partner in greater proportion, the lower the altitude. Given the DO resrictions on blending proportions (with lots of Tempranillo) this is precisely why the Rioja Alta produces the region's best stuff. I'd like to bet the best Californian single varietal tempys come from relativley high altitude vineyards, while the low alt stuff gets blended.
Maybe the article needs rephrasing here & there and I welcome the broader viewpoint and clarification. I do think that this insistence on phrasing such as "hotter & dryer" is just as misleading as the phrase "cooler regions", so I've been through and attempted a better way of expressing it. Hope everyone agrees.--mikaul^talk 11:55, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with you guys. I don't think the anon IP is wrong, it just that his/her edits are misleading. But, as I agree with Mick, just listing "cool climate" is a bit misleading too since, as I noted before, what is cool for Spain would obviously be classified as relatively warm in other areas. Unfortunately the IP's last edit added a bit of their "years of experience" OR to a source that just talked about Graciano being used for blending (not going into detail about why), which is a bit farther then Wikipedia policy allows us to go. I think the best route would be to find a source, like Bodega mentions, that maybe gives some temperature ranges so that a reader knows what the articles means when it talks about the "cool climate" of Rioja or Ribera del Deuro. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 16:14, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I think that a link to Continental Mediterranean climate as a defined variety of Mediterranean Climate may prove helpful. The Ribera del Duero area is indeed cooler than other Mediterranean areas of Spain (i.e. Andalusia or Valencia). On a general level, I think we all agree that Tempranillo is more suitable for Mediteranean than Oceanic climate areas. Regards, Asterion^talk 17:50, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

The average temperature may be lower, but the daytime highs are much higher. It is the combination of hot days, allowing for proper skin development, and cool nights which retain acidity and color, which typify continental viticultural climates. Perhaps "hot, continental climate" is the most suitable term. - anon —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.39.27.175 (talk) 18:00, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately the phrasing "hot continental climate" is just as misleading as "cool climate". An important element of Tempranillo, as Mick noted above "In Spain, as anywhere, you don't find many red varietals in high-altitude vineyards; Tempranillo is the exception, hence its cool-climate preference is notable." I think Asterion's suggestion is a good one and the Oz Clarke quote already in the article does not the importance of heat. I'll find another source for the average temperature of the Ribera del Deuro and we should be well on our way to finding a solution. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 19:34, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

• Update I made the attempt to edit the article and decided it was best to just remove the references to "cool climate" or "warm climate" and replace it with the bare essential facts of one of the regions that Tempranillo thrives in (the Ribera del Duero)-especially considering the Oxford Encyclopedia makes a point to note that the Tempranillo grape is one of the few grape that can adapt to the unique climate to this area. I figure it was best to let the reader add their own "adjective" to describe this climate as warm/cool/hot whatever. I also include Asterion's suggestion to link to Continental Mediterranean climate to where the reader could learn more about this unique climatology. The only thing I didn't include was the high altitude vineyards because I didn't find the best source yet to fit that in. I was trying not to turn the section into one that would look like it belongs more in the Ribera del Duero article instead. Hopefully this will take care of this disagreement to everyone's satisfaction. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 20:01, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I fail to see the debate about whether or not a growing region that experiences daily highs of 104F is considered "hot." The information in the last edit is good, but the wording fails to keep the artice concise, clear, and optimally useful. Why compromise the quality of an article simply because you refuse to accept that this is a hot growing region? T The average reader would have no qualms with the words "hot climate," and it would illustrate the same point that the last edit made. I think if the article had the correct information in the first place, this would not be any sort of an issue, and the information explaining that this is a hot climate grape would be included, in those exact words. Look at the other grape variety articles in Wikipedia. "Pinot noir grapes are grown around the world, mostly in the cooler regions." Riesling makes similar mentions of "cool climates," and I'm sure the words "warm," "hot," "cool," and "cold" are found in many articles in reference to various grapes' climate preferences. Why should this article be any different? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.39.27.175 (talk) 21:00, 13 November 2007 (UTC) Just look at how choppy, unappealing, and confusing this article has become. Disgraceful. The sources were there, the wording was appropriate, and now it looks like this. Have fun ruining these articles. I see no reason to contribute when others are willing to sacrifice the quality of an article to prove their point (invalid as it may be.) Goodbye.

Um...compared to the rest of Spain, a mean July temperature of 70F is actually "cool". Again, given this discussion, I think it is best to avoid using terms like "warm"/"cool", etc. Let the reader develop their own adjectives. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 21:06, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Well despite the "terseness" of our anon friend's comment, I think some improvement has been made to the article. It is easy for those of us who work with these articles and work with wine to sometimes forget that what we mean by terms "cool"/"warm" etc don't always come across to the reader the same way. While we may understand the context of describing a "cool region" in Spain doesn't mean we are talking about temperature in the Mosel, a reader not so familiar with the grapes or wine regions might see it as meaning such. So to that extent this was a positive development and in following excellent sources like Oz Clarke, Jancis Robinson and Hugh Johnson we have more accurately conveyed the type of environment that Tempranillo thrives in. Is it perfect or ideal? of course not but like everything in Wikipedia it is still a work in progress. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 21:12, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Things do tend to get choppy and unappealing in hot climates like this ;) following the harvest, we can give it all a good pruning :)) dear god, I crack myself up sometimes.. Thanks for your contributions, 71.39.27.175 and cheers for keeping it reasonably cool. --mikaul^talk 22:25, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Part II

Apparently, the matter is not settled. As I would not like things to escalate unnecessarily, should we try to get a few other voices, maybe by using a request for comments? Asterion^talk 21:59, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

I would support opening up a RFC. I thought we came to a reasonable conclusion that it probably wasn't appropriate to use terms like "cool"/"warm"/"hot" etc since the reader might not have the background or know the context in which those terms are being used. The article uses reliable sources to give the bare fact of what the temperature if like in one Tempranillo's prime growing spots. The anon IP seems insistent on introducing vagueness to point where it is misleading in the article. I hope that he will join us again in having some productive dialog. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 04:30, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Update I put in the RfC request in the society category. Unfortunately there really isn't a Food, wine and culture type category. I'm not sure how many responses we can get since, apart from wine geeks, it is somewhat of a silly and mundane disagreement. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 04:38, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

RfC

• Summary of view by user Agne A few weeks ago the Tempranillo article stated that Tempranillo did not like hot and dry weather. The anon IP sought to correct this [4] by saying the opposite in that it enjoys hot weather. Various rewrites and discussions took place above and in the edit summary of the article. The anon IP is correct, to a degree, in that Tempranillo is not a "cool climate grape" in the fact that you're talking about it growing in Sioux Falls or the Mosel. But it is a grape that wine experts consistently note needs a "cooler environment" in order to fulfill its potential. (See examples above and in the article). One of the most well known location for producing outstanding Tempranillo is the Ribera del Duero, which is one of the "cooler sites" in Spain. But this where the root of the disagreement shines.

The problem is the context In the wine world, terms like "cool"/"warm"/"hot" are subjective and actually depend on the context of the region you are talking about. In French wine, the Loire Valley region is considered "cool" with an mean July temperature of 67F(19.4C) while the Roussillon is considered "hot" with a mean July temp of 74.7F (23.7C). For those curious, in the wine world (for the Northern Hemisphere) July is one of the most vital wine growing months in terms of development which is why it is of primarily consideration. The Ribera del Duero falls in between with July temperature 70.5 °F (21.4°C) and Rioja, where Tempranillo is also prominently grown is even cooler with 68.5F(20.3). This is in contrast to other Spanish wine regions like Jerez at 77.9F (25.5) where you find hardly any Tempranillo at all, or of poorer quality. This also doesn't take into consideration that many of Ribera (and Rioja) best Tempranillo vineyards are at higher altitudes (2642-2755 ft/800m-840m) where the temperature drops 1 °C for every 150 metres (or 33F for every 492ft). So while the low valley floor can reach a daytime high of 104°F (40C), the grapes are rarely exposed to that type of sustain heat.

Therefore we need to avoid adjectives like "cool" and "hot" and just let the reader look at the basic facts and figure and decide for themselves what type of adjectives to use. For those that are familiar with Spanish wines and know the comparison to other major wine region, Tempranillo thrives in relatively "cooler" climate and would probably consciously avoid a New World Tempranillo made in say....the Sierra Foothills AVA with its 77F (25C) July temps. For those that want to compare it with their own environment in Sioux Falls, London, Chicago, etc than the Ribera would be for them a warm climate. It would be misleading for us to try and characterize based on our own background knowledge and context. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 05:22, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

That's a fair summary. The main points as I see them:

1. As it concerns a definitively Spanish grape, this entire article was originally researched from Spanish sources. From a Spanish perspective, Tempranillo is a cool-climate grape, as it does its best stuff in the northern mountains. The fact that it needs 30°C+ daytime summer temperatures is almost meaningless in a country in which that is the case literally everywhere you go. This is the origin of the original offending phrase "It grows best in cooler regions as it does not tolerate hot or dry weather well"[5] that, from a northern European perspective, was rightly challenged as misleading. This phrase was removed following earlier discussion here.
2. By the same token, the phrase "hot climate" means radically different things to different people and we are equally right to challenge its use here. The key phrase to use, which I think everyone accepts, is that the grape does its best stuff in climates with "extremes of temperature", which means the same to everyone whether they live in a 50° desert or a 5° swamp.
3. Dwelling on this point is not giving it undue weight. Tempranillo is one of the few red grapes which thrives in these conditions.
4. We can demonstrate a fairly clear consensus on this page and should probably set about applying the lessons learned from it to a raft of other wine articles; in light of this, changes like this are unhelpful, inflammatory point making exercises we could well do without. I suggest we consider such changes as vandalism and pursue future article stability along those lines.
   --mikaul^talk 10:54, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Good points. I don't know if "extremes of temperature" (at least by itself) would clear up matters. I certainly agree that this is not undue weight because it is one of the exact reasons why Tempranillo is so interesting. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 11:05, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

• I'm not a viticulturist, but to my mind it's fairly clear, that Tempranillo is probably in the third quartile of grapes in terms of "degree days needed to ripen" or some such definition. It's not about looking at it from the perspective of London or Madrid, you just need to think about the range of grapes that are grown for wine. Which start with things like Madeleine Angevine and Bacchus, move through Riesling and Dornfelder, then the Pinots, Sauvignon Blanc, Cabernet Franc, Cabernet Sauvignon, Barbera, Nebbiolo, Syrah, Grenache, Carignan and the port grapes. On that scale I'd put Tempranillo somewhere around the Barbera/Nebbiolo mark, it needs the warmth and sun of a southern autumn, without getting blasted with heat. I think it's very easy to get misled by peak July temperatures, somewhere like the Loire it's just that - a peak - from which temperatures decline really quite rapidly (and it gets colder in winter, so it takes longer for the vines to get going. All I can say is that I've been in Rioja in September and in the Loire - I'd wear long sleeve shirts some of the time in the Loire, but not in Rioja, and come evening I'd be thinking about a coat. Also, the Loire seems to often fall on the boundary between the hot Med air and the cooler "English" block of air, and it can flip quite quickly from one to the other (jetstreams?) so your max temperature may not be very representative of the mean temperature. Obviously having early ripening helps a variety to cope with 'spiky' climates like the Loire, but it's also to do with things like the intensity of the sun at lower latitudes. I think degree days are probably a helpful concept to deal with 'spiky' versus 'gradual' seasons (as you get in California for instance) - and I'd put tempranillo in the third quartile, as I said, with some of the Italian grapes. "Cool southern grapes"? North/South doesn't really work in the Antipodes. "Cool Med grapes"? Something like that, but to suggest that tempranillo would thrive in the same conditions as Rotberger, or Dornfelder, or the Madelines just sounds ridiculous.FlagSteward (talk) 18:20, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

I agree that max temperatures are a not a good indicator and the anon-IP, themselves, seemed to get confused with the 104 F max temp rather than looking at the mean temperatures (which is much more vital in wine growing). You make some good points. How do you feel about the current text of the article? Agne^Cheese/^Wine 00:30, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

In general? Needs a good copyedit before it can be considered GA IMO. ;-/ I'll mebbe make that my pre-Xmas Wikiproject. On this specific topic, it would be great if someone could come up with solid evidence of degree day requirements, which would shut up this debate once and for all. Like I say, I'm no viticulturist, but my wording would be something like "Tempranillo needs a Mediterranean climate to ripen properly, but the best wines come from vines cooled by local factors such as high altitude" or "Tempranillo needs a Mediterranean climate to ripen properly, but for the best wine, that climate should be moderated by local factors such as high altitude". At least that conveys my understanding of it, that the "coolness" is more a quality requirement than anything more fundamental - maybe I'm just being swayed too much by the comparison with Nebbiolo, where the best sites in Barolo etc are almost completely determined by how much they are cooled by the fog. Again, I'm ignorant, but are there examples in the world (California?) of Tempranillo being cooled by fog rather than altitude, or is it too suceptible to disease for that to work? FlagSteward (talk) 16:20, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Good questions and admittedly I don't know. I like some of your proposed wording. As for degree days, I'll keep looking but I suspect some of the best sources might be in Spanish. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 16:56, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

There are plenty of good Spanish sources citing damp conditions as unfavourable (google "tempranillo" and "humedad") – it's a much bigger negative factor (ie promotes disease) than excess heat, which affects yield characteristics but has a less detrimental effect on quality. [This article] wanders off the point a little but is good on the vagaries of degree days and the importance of terrain. I must say, it leaves me at a loss as to finding any ready climactic benchmarks. Maybe, given that it's a case-by-case thing, we should be putting more meat on the bones of the "climate" sections within our grape articles. --mikaul^talk 19:51, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

White mutant copyedit

The white mutant bit needed an edit for English and biology, which I've now done. I felt the whole section needed a bit of pruning to reflect the relative importance of the mutant. Although it (like the rest of the article) has lots of citation, I'm not that happy about the quality of some of them, not least because some appeared to be general web articles that had expired. People at CIDA such as Juan Bautista Chavarri Mardones must have produced peer-reviewed science about the white mutant, which would make much better references, especially if they were in English.
"the genetic similarity between the red and white variety is of 97.8%" - looking at it, that was just a question of confirming that the white mutant was in the Tempranillo family, from what I can work out there are three subgroups with 95% genetic similarity - again, peer-reviewed science on this would be great.
Another thing, I've removed the following from the white mutant on the grounds that it is giving specific details of the behaviour of the white, and saying that it's the same as the red. It would be helpful to find good references for the red, and then include it in the winemaking section for the red grape. :
The white grape has a skin that is green-yellow as opposed to the blue-black color of the regular Tempranillo grape. Both grapes share identical leaves, clusters and grape form, as well as the short ripening cycles and sensitivity to pests and diseases. The early ripening cycles makes possible its cultivation in any subzone of the Denominatin since the entire cycle can be completed even in the zones where ripening occurs later. The white tempranillo has a medium yield (7.500 - 9.000 kilos per acre), medium to high vine vigor and high alcohol content. Although it has many clusters, they are small and of medium weight. It has an accidity of 6.9 pH.
FlagSteward (talk) 21:59, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

• When I was working on the white mutant part, I actually looked through the CIDA website to get the science reports. Alas, I did not find them. Also, I believe the following should be integrated again into the article:

"the genetic similarity between the red and white variety is of 97.8%" - I think it is important because it establishes a difference, albeit small, between the two. It mostly accounts for the change in color. Peer review was too impossible to find since info on this is not widely available.

The white grape has a skin that is green-yellow as opposed to the blue-black color of the regular Tempranillo grape. Both grapes share identical leaves, clusters and grape form, as well as the short ripening cycles and sensitivity to pests and diseases. The early ripening cycles makes possible its cultivation in any subzone of the Denominatin since the entire cycle can be completed even in the zones where ripening occurs later. The white tempranillo has a medium yield (7.500 - 9.000 kilos per acre), medium to high vine vigor and high alcohol content. Although it has many clusters, they are small and of medium weight. It has an accidity of 6.9 pH. - Re-integrating this because (1) states the yield of the white tempranillo, which I think is less than the regular kind, (2) white and red tempranillo have different pH levels. Actually one of the complaints about the white tempranillo wine is that it is more acidic than red, if I am not mistaken. (3) has a lesser yield than red. (4) And in general, establishes similarities and differences which I believe it is imp since we are talking about a clone afterall. --Charleenmerced ^Talk 02:39, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

What is actually meant by 97.8% "genetic similarity"? This must be a number that comes out of a specific test on certain genetic markers, rather than from a sequenzation of the entire genome, which must reasonably differ by a lot less than 2.2% if it's just produced by a mutation that actually allowed the plant to survive and be recognizable as a vine or even a flowering plant... Unless it's specified which (type of) test, the number 97.8% seems fairly meaningless. Tomas e (talk) 18:39, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

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GA Sweeps Review

This article has been reviewed as part of Wikipedia:WikiProject Good articles/Project quality task force in an effort to ensure all listed Good articles continue to meet the Good article criteria. In reviewing the article, I have found there are some issues that may need to be addressed, listed below. I will check back in seven days. If these issues are addressed, the article will remain listed as a Good article. Otherwise, it may be delisted (such a decision may be challenged through WP:GAR). If improved after it has been delisted, it may be nominated at WP:GAN. Feel free to drop a message on my talk page if you have any questions, and many thanks for all the hard work that has gone into this article thus far.

The lead section is very short and doesn't summarize the whole article. Furthermore, inconsistent reference formatting is another concern. Some sections also need additional references to support the claim. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 20:33, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm now delisting as there are no substantial improvement on the lead section. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 05:02, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Tempranillo/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: J Milburn (talk · contribs) 23:21, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

At first glance, this looks like an interesting and well-written article. For what it's worth, I am not a drinker of decent wine. Some thoughts to follow soon. J Milburn (talk) 23:21, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

• "Tempranillo enjoyed a renaissance there and throughout the world as a fine wine" Surely, as a grape producing fine wine? An apple is not known as a fine cider.
  • The quotation here is out of context. "Fine wine" is in contrast to "jug wiwne." "Grown early in the 20th century to produce jug wines in California, Tempranillo enjoyed a renaissance there and throughout the world as a fine wine." I've revised it to read "Grown early in the 20th century to produce jug wines in California, toward the end of the 20th century Tempranillo enjoyed a renaissance..."
• "Tempranillo is consumed both young and after several years of barrel aging" Again
  • "Tempranillo is bottled either young or after several years of barrel aging"
• Can I ask why you are capitalising all grape names? Is there something buried deep in the MoS?
  • While there is no consensus on common names, WP:FLORA suggests no capitalization. But specific grapes are cultivars, which are capitalized according to WP:FLORA. The examples there are written, "Ulmus × hollandica 'Dampieri'," but a good sampling of fruit articles shows a lot of capitalization without the genus and species:

Braeburn, Fuji (apple), Avocado, Roma tomato, San Marzano tomato, Lemon basil, Prunus maritima Beach Plum), McIntosh (apple), Damson (this does not capitalize), Golden Delicious, Bing cherry, Goldfinger banana, Red banana (shows a mix, but predominantly capitalized), Señorita banana.

• "This is presumably because in many places, like the Valdepeñas region, it was the main indigenous variety and assumed to be a different grape." It's not clear what this means
  • I've been looking more closely at WP:RS since I last reviewed the sources in this article. Looking at it now, I would agree that some of these sources are not adequate, especially this one. This sentence is speculative and adds little to the article.
• "Ally fallaría ommes las bonas cardeniellas" Why italics?
  • This was probably done originally because Latin phrases are often italicized, as per MOS:FOREIGN. This, however, is a quote and not a phrase like semper fidelis or orbis non sufficit.
• It would be good if the history section could clarify right at the beginning that this is a grape variety that stretches back into antiquity. I think the lead could also make this much clearer; it currently suggests that it arose in the 20th century
  • More clarity is always better, though there are several references to the Phoenicians. I've added "ancient" to "Tempranillo has been grown on the Iberian peninsula since the time of Phoenician settlements. It is the main grape used in Rioja, and is often referred to as Spain's "noble grape".[2] Grown early in the 20th century to produce...
• "made Tempranillo-type vines their most important variety, which still make up the majority of grapes in the finest blends." Tempranillo-type vines make up the majority of grapes in the finest blends?
  • Crappy source. I should have nixed the entire sentence in the first place.
• "The white Tempranillo grape reproduces asexually through the one unique sarmentum and multiplication." Jargon
  • Where is the line between jargon and the scientific description of a biological process? Still, the sentence is quite adequate without "through the one unique sarmentum and multiplication."
• "Both grapes share identical leaves, clusters, and grape form, as well as the short ripening cycles and sensitivity to pests and diseases" This contradicts what has been said earlier
  • Not only is it a contradiction, the source does not have any information regarding the comparison of ripening season and the sensitivity to disease and pests.
• "The early ripening cycle makes possible its cultivation in any subzone of the DOC since the entire cycle can be completed even in the zones where ripening occurs later." Again, jargony
  • I can see that. It could also be a little more specific. "Subzone of the DOC" refers to any area of Rioja, but the article should not assume any reader will make that connection. I'll play around with the wording on that.
• "The white Tempranillo has a medium yield (7500–9000 kilograms per hectare),[13] and medium to high vine vigor. Although it has many clusters, they are small and of medium weight." How does this compare with normal
  • "Medium yield" is qualified. The rest is not. The entire portion does not meet WP:RS. I'll look for better sources.
• "In one example it was reported to have a titratable acidity of 6.9 g/L." Jargon. How does this compare? How is it relevant?
  • This could use a comment as to why high acidity is good for wine grapes. Good point, though, that it is not compared to regular Tempranillo. And the source is inadequate.
• "In 2007, White Tempranillo, or Tempranillo Blanco, was authorized in Basque Country, Navarra, and Rioja." To sell? To be produced?
  • Both. I made the change.
• "Tempranillo wines can be consumed young, but the most expensive ones are aged for several years in oak barrels. The wines are ruby red in colour, with aromas and flavors of berries, plum, tobacco, vanilla, leather and herb." Unreferenced?
  • The first part is a glaring generalization that can apply to any wine in the world. I added a citation to the second part.
• The "Old world production" section also seems to be unreferenced?
• "produce fine 100% tempranillos like Encino." Check this reads properly? Also, link Encino?
  • Encino was added by an IP with less than 10 edits. It's likely the name of a winery, put there by someone close to the company. Because of this and other names, I asked on the Wine Project talk page about the appropriateness of specific wineries. The feedback was to leave them out unless they are somehow significant. I never went back to remove them.
• "Los Cerros de San Juan Vineyards and Winery" Why italics?
  • No need, but it's getting deleted anyway.
• Does Valdepenas need to be linked? Valdepenas (grape) currently links to this article
• The synonyms do seem like important information, but they do not look good like that. Have you considered a footnote as a possibility? Also, if the references refer only to the synonyms, are the localities just original research?
  • I doubt they're original research. Better sources are needed. I don't think a footnote would really work. We may as well remove them if we did that. It can be fixed.
• There are a lot of web sources lacking retrieval dates
  • WP:CITEHOW just says what web citations "typically" include. That doesn't sound like an absolute requirement except for when the publication date is unknown, which some do not have. But, since many of those are crap sources anyway, I'll be pulling a lot of citations.
• I'm unable to access the reliability of a lot of the sources as I do not speak Spanish, but some of the English ones certainly look questionable.
  • This?
  • This?
  • This?
  • This?
  • This?
  • There are others...

Although the prose is well written and formatted, I'm worried that the weaker citations, as well as some of the poorer sources, are letting this article down. J Milburn (talk) 23:58, 15 May 2012 (UTC)

Since my main review of this article, I have done a lot more work on learning finer points of WP:RS, and I've even started posting responses at the noticeboard. Looking over this, these citations are way below the threshold of reliable sources. Thanks for the very thorough review. Cheers! Encycloshave (talk) 17:29, 16 May 2012 (UTC)

Let me know when you're ready for another look through. J Milburn (talk) 15:46, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

It appears that Encycloshave has been absent from Wikipedia for over three weeks, with the last edit on May 19, two days after the most recent edits on this article. Should the review remain active under these circumstances? BlueMoonset (talk) 20:42, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Sourcing problems remain. While the article has certainly benefitted from the removal of some of the lower quality sources, work is still needed before this could be considered ready for GA status. As such, I'm closing the review at this time; hopefully Encycloshave or someone else will be able to give this the few hours' work that it needs and it can be renominated. J Milburn (talk) 09:38, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

Sources that don't meet WP:RS

Much of this article is based on the Spanish wiki article. Along with it came some citations that do not meet WP:RS, or at least the English version. A lot of the section on Tempranillo Blanco may have to go if I can't fine reliable sources. Also, I just removed a chunk from the history section that quoted a 13th century poet. The original web citation was from Spanish tourism site that quoted from Libro de Alexandre. The quote is used to suggest that the poet was talking about grapes in Spain during the 13th century. However, Libro de Alexandre is about Alexander the Great, who obviously lived much earlier. I found Ian Michael's The Treatment of Classical Material in the "Libro de Alexandre", where it's suggested the poet was displaying his knowledge of viticulture by providing the names of grapes that must have been cultivated in Spain during his lifetime. Sound like a shaky historical source for an encyclopedia? Let me know if anybody thinks I should put this back into the article. Cheers! Encycloshave (talk) 02:18, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

I can probably help out a bit (but won't be able to do much until the weekend). Personally, I would just ruthlessly remove the unsourced/questionably sourced material and essentially rewrite the entire section if need be. Which sections need the most attention? The history and Tempranillo blanco section? Agne^Cheese/^Wine 04:34, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Also, a note about the synonyms. The bulk of the list is referenced to the German Vitis International Variety Catalogue which is an exceedingly reliable source that is used in nearly every single grape variety article. The parenthetical locations are a not part of that ref and while mostly accurate, are harder to verify and are somewhat OR. I would recommend removing the locations and if the extra synonyms from the deadlink can't be verified they should be removed as well. But I don't see a need to remove the VIVC list. Yes, it is a bit long but that abundance of synonyms is actually a unique characteristic of Tempranillo and it is the last section of the article so it is not that much of an eye sore. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 04:40, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Indeed, the Tempranillo Blanco needs the most help. I may strip it and move a lot the content to one of my sandboxes and see if I can confirm the information later. Do you read Spanish? Mine is limited. With my knowledge of it and the cautious use of Google Translator, I may be able to eventually salvage some of the T. Blanco. And I also agree on the synonyms. I've cited Vitis before, but it is a bit lean on synonym details. Still, some of those locations listed are already mentioned in other parts of the article. Encycloshave (talk) 10:24, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Never mind the above regarding T. Blanco. It's poorly sourced, and besides, the Spanish wiki has T. Blanco in its own article. Right now, it's sitting in a sandbox for when I can find decent sources.Encycloshave (talk) 15:45, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

No I don't speak Spanish but there are enough reliable English language sources that I don't think it will be a problem. Again, I'll be able to devote a couple hours this weekend so just keep me abreast of what areas you would want some extra hands with. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 16:54, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

• Updated: I scoured what English language sources I could to get the Tempranillo blanco article started. Frustratingly, most of the English sources seemed to cite or parrot the content that was previously in this Wikipedia article so I tried to use only unique sources. That said, some of the content that was previously here and sourced only to Spanish language sources might still merit inclusion but until we find a Spanish-speaking Wikipedian to verify the content and reliability of the sources I would hold off on including it. Agne^Cheese/^Wine 22:49, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

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